Author Topic: Do you believe...  (Read 71032 times)

Offline plymoth45

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« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2004, 06:54:00 PM »
yes, there is plasma, and that is also one of the main parts of the Fusion Reactors they are trying to create, the need stable Plasma in order to achieve nuclear Fusion. That is the way the sun works, taking hydrogen and turning it into helium through fusion which is done by means of plasma. Something like that anyway.

Offline PlayingOutpost0-24

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« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2004, 07:06:14 PM »
lol they NEED stable plasma...
Anyway if there is God he/she/it (anyway lol) is plasma...
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Offline CK9

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« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2004, 08:15:05 PM »
lol, got any facts that lead to that conclusion?
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Offline PlayingOutpost0-24

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« Reply #103 on: August 13, 2004, 08:34:56 PM »
well if i know one thing for sure that we cant see him... n e way if God exists and not liquid/gas/solid, only plasma the only one left. or there is a Godly state?
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Offline CK9

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« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2004, 11:10:16 PM »
why are you asking me of all people?
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Offline Zircon

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« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2004, 04:20:46 AM »
Interesting but irritating (damn politicians) subject, the blueprints for the ITER (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor) which would be the first "functional" fusion reactor is finished but now politicians are arguing on where to build it.

For more then a year  -_-

The US, the European Union, China, Japan and South Korea are to be involved in the project and they have concluded that there are only 2 "safe" locations to build it on.

1: The French city of Cadarache that already has the infrastructure finished as they have experimented with it before, the place is also nice to live in.

2: The Japanese town of Rokkashomur, while it has no infrastructure and is very desolate it is at the sea so that large boats can bring needed materials over the sea.
While being desolate can be both a bad and good thing because in the event of an emergency the general population wont suffer. But being desolate it means that many dont want to work there.

Fusion technology has also proven to be rather harmless, while the reactor (in worst case scenario) can fail/blow up there wont be any radioactive dust or large meltdown compared to a fission reactor.
(no this doesn't mean that fusion bombs aren't as dangerous as normal fission based ones)

The main problem with fusion technology as of today is that once the reaction is started (or atleast being near the ignition point) the magnetic field containing the plasma eventually fails. When the "plasma" has violent outbursts the magnetic field needs to correct itself in order to compensate which it doesn't do fast enough.

Interesting Note: Scientists like to call fusion reactors Tokamaks  :op2:
« Last Edit: August 14, 2004, 08:43:58 AM by Zircon »

Offline PlayingOutpost0-24

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« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2004, 10:20:05 AM »
Zircon: let them build it in france, if it blows up, nothing is lost lol...
Tokamaks? lol... then one thing they have to repair it often...
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Offline CK9

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« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2004, 02:47:41 PM »
Quote
Zircon: let them build it in france, if it blows up, nothing is lost lol...
 
YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!!!!!!!

France is one of the few places where you can still find towns that are as they were in the medieval time period.  There are also hundreds of beautiful and fasinating historic structures (such as Notre Dame (again, I suck at spelling), The Palace of Versais, the hall of mirrors, the towns I mentioned before, as well as the many castles that have been there for well over a hundred years.
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Offline PlayingOutpost0-24

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« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2004, 03:15:23 PM »
Quote
YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!!!!!!!
Then move those or something, french are no-good.... they are the reason why Hungary only now 66% of its original size. those also taken our only little seaside...
:(
Oh anyway if you say so build in Japan, blow it up and technology's evlution stops lol...

EDIT: we have real medieval castle (ruins lol) too
« Last Edit: August 14, 2004, 03:18:47 PM by PlayingOutpost0-24 »
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Offline CK9

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« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2004, 03:18:56 PM »
actually, you are mistaken.  It happened during the Treaty of Versialls (there's the spelling!) I believe, which had very little French influence during it's drafting
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Offline PlayingOutpost0-24

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« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2004, 03:25:03 PM »
then why we signed the treaty of trianon (trianon's treaty if my translation is correct) in Paris?
and why did us, hungarians destroyed anything that reminds...anyway id even go back in time and blow the whole place to smitherines (tell me if im misspelling!)...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2004, 03:25:42 PM by PlayingOutpost0-24 »
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Offline CK9

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« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2004, 08:33:11 PM »
lol, checkmate
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Offline jesusfreak06

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« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2004, 11:29:25 PM »
Well, Z, i've found something that might interest you(everyone else as well).  You asked for someone to use science to prove something.  Well, here goes:

A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD

The existence of God is a subject that has occupied schools of philosophy and theology for thousands of years. Most of the time, these debates have revolved around all kinds of assumptions and definitions. Philosophers will spend a lifetime arguing about the meaning of a word and never really get there. One is reminded of the college student who was asked how his philosophy class was going. He replied that they had not done much because when the teacher tried to call roll, the kids kept arguing about whether they existed or not.

Most of us who live and work in the real world do not concern ourselves with such activities. We realize that such discussions may have value and interest in the academic world, but the stress and pressure of day-to-day life forces us to deal with a very pragmatic way of making decisions. If I ask you to prove to me that you have $2.00, you would show it to me. Even in more abstract things we use common sense and practical reasoning. If I ask you whether a certain person is honest or not, you do not flood the air with dissertations on the relative nature of honesty; you would give me evidence one way or the other. The techniques of much of the philosophical arguments that go on would eliminate most of engineering and technology if they were applied in those fields.

The purpose of this brief study is to offer a logical, practical, pragmatic proof of the existence of God from a purely scientific perspective. To do this, we are assuming that we exist, that there is reality, and that the matter of which we are made is real. If you do not believe that you exist, you have bigger problems than this study will entail and you will have to look elsewhere.

THE BEGINNING
If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1 :1). The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form, but it has always been. The Humanist Manifesto says, "Matter is self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief.

The way we decide whether the atheist is correct or not is to see what science has discovered about this question. The picture below on the left represents our part of the cosmos. Each of the disk shaped objects is a galaxy like our Milky Way. All of these galaxies are moving relative to each other. Their movement has a very distinct pattern which causes the distance between the galaxies to get greater with every passing day. If we had three galaxies located at positions A, B. and C in the second diagram below, and if they are located as shown, tomorrow they will be further apart. The triangle they form will be bigger. The day after tomorrow the triangle will be bigger yet. We live in an expanding universe that gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day.

 Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together. The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what scientists call a singularity!

A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The picture to the right is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear fusion. Every second that passes, the sun  compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it came into existence. This incredible furnace is not a process confined to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on forever, how much hydrogen should be left?

Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas (fuel) into it. As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to happen? I am going to run out of gas I If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is, however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe! Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the spectrum_a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not be unless we had a beginning!

A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomers refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is "everything that ever was or is or ever will be," as Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.

The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.

THE CAUSE
If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.

The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.

THE DESIGN
If we know that the creation had a beginning and we know that the beginning was caused, there is one last question for us to answer--what was the cause? The Bible tells us that God was the cause. We are further told that the God who did the causing did so with planning and reason and logic. Romans 1:20 tells us that we can know God is "through the things he has made." The atheist, on the other hand, will try to convince us that we are the product of chance. Julian Huxley once said:

We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents.  The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

Wow, CK9, France sounds like a great place to go to, but i'll stick to Italy and the Greecian Islands.  :)  I never knew so much about plasma.  lol.  btw, i didn't write this, i found it while reshearching.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2004, 11:31:21 PM by garrettsgirl »
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Offline Zircon

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« Reply #113 on: August 15, 2004, 04:49:05 AM »
:huh: That guy seems to have read some things, but not enough by far. Most of the things he brought up have already been explained previously by *drums* me...

Quote
lol. btw, i didn't write this, i found it while reshearching.
Yes i can see that, the article among other refers to several pictures.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html

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Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together. The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what scientists call a singularity!

That's what we call the big bang, the point of origin. Labelling it with "beginning" just to play some word game is rather dense.

Quote
A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The picture to the right is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear fusion. Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it came into existence. This incredible furnace is not a process confined to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on forever, how much hydrogen should be left?

*sigh* I will once again call upon the holy mantra... *drums* Big bang, as such it hasn't been going on "forever" just a very long time. With the constant expanse of the universe we can with hubble view newer planets and follow the steps in which the the space dust turns into planets. When looking really far back with hubble we see lots of space dust, the space dust is there because of the quark-gluon plasma explained earlier. As hubble looks closer to ourselves in other words looking at the older parts of the universe the space dust slowly goes to rings, then big "rocks" the rocks then begin a process which made into into a hot lava throwing giant etc...

Quote
Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas (fuel) into it. As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to happen? I am going to run out of gas I If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is, however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe! Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the spectrum_a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not be unless we had a beginning!
*duh* When a sun finally runs out of hydrogen the result will either be a supernova or a simple death of the sun. Our own sun will not go supernova, it needs to be atleast ten times bigger in order for that to happen. When our sun dies it will throw of all matter and just leave a big splotch of space dust, possibly creating a nebula with the right conditions. Our sun will then have succesfully have run out of hydrogen.
However if the sun goes supernova, as in *big boom* imploding into itself a black hole will be created. At the end of a black holes life what is thrown out except huge amounts of radiation, hydrogen. Black holes immense gravity has a mean knack of pulling matter into the most basic parts thus, hydrogen.
So even within a universe that eventually has its hydrogen reserves resetted by a new big bang there's a recycle system providing the universe with new hydrogen.

Quote
A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomers refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is "everything that ever was or is or ever will be," as Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.

Excuse me before i shoot myself, haven't i explained this particular topic to many times. garretsgirl, i hereby condemn you to take two take two steps back and lose one turn muahaha *cough*  :blush:
The golden law, matter and energy is never lost only turned into another form.

Quote
THE CAUSE
If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

Ah, atlast he dives into something science didn't answer 20 years ago...
No, we can't say what was before the very first bigbang.

Quote
We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents. The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

Please refer to previous discussions in this thread...

As for the "the anthropic principle" it can be compared with the second law of thermodynamics, while the principle describes certain "chances" already explained by other laws it adds an improbability to both quantum physics, evolution and even the chance of a planet being created. It basicly also says that it is impossible to win a lottery. While i may agree that the chance of winning a lottery is small everyone knows that sooner or later you win. It's like the demonic spawn of a pissed off christian. As such it is very controversial and old, it offers no alternatives and breaks
most science and day to day events. For example with this principle being correct you rule out all kinds of luck and "divine interference" (if you are about to step in front of a car but are somehow saved from it i say "how lucky i am" while you say "oh thank god") but with the principle in effect you would always no matter the situation get run over by the car. A weak example but i'm only trying to make you get the picture.

The (weak and strong) principle has since long been thrown in the garbage bin. (they have multiple versions of it, they tried desperately to "upgrade" the theory so that scientists wouldn't simply smash it to pieces everytime, they failed miserably when trying to upgrade it)

The nasty part of this principle is that as with the second law, sites all over the net bring it up in some sort of self denial comparable with the "missing day" posted by mustang i think. Even though NASA has over and over explained that there never even was such an event the christians that read the story blamed them for a conspiracy and keeping the truth from the public and regarded it as true. *sigh* I remember almost blowing my brains out when even sammyk brought the thing up, the incident is 40 years old to even begin with. bleh, Einstein was correct when saying that there are only two infinite things, space and human stupidity and he wasn't sure about space...

Except for answering what triggered this entire mess (before the big bang) all of the points he brought up was simply gibberish (which we have already been through) explained by science years ago...

(fixed some spelling errors)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2004, 01:21:00 PM by Zircon »

Offline CK9

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« Reply #114 on: August 15, 2004, 11:08:25 AM »
chemistry is more my thing than that stuff, lol

I don't understand a lot of what's being said
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Offline plymoth45

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« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2004, 03:44:25 PM »
Has anyone been to http://www.biblecode.com yet?

Offline ZeusBD

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« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2004, 11:30:05 PM »
I have a question....what is on the other side of a black hole? Where does everything go that get's sucked into the black hole?

That was a very good article Garrettsgirl, and no matter what Zircon says to disprove it, I liked it. You don't have real proof that God does or doesn't exist, all you have is theories versus belief and faith. No one will ever be able to truely prove either way. I like this discussion and I hope that more interesting theories are brought up.
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Offline CK9

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« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2004, 12:09:07 AM »
to say that theories and faith are opposing forces is incorrect.  Scientist have faith that their theories are going to be proven correct, but a true scientist will turn either conclusion into a learning opportunity.


BTW, Zues, in answer to your question about black holes, who cares?  That stuff is in there, not out here, so how can it really effect us?  A black hole is basically a gravity well, it has a point within itself that generates the gravitational pull (which is so strong light cannot escape it), E.O.S.
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Offline ZeusBD

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« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2004, 12:15:54 AM »
Actually saying that light cannot escape it has been proven wrong. I forgot where I saw that...I think it was CNN (television).
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Offline Zircon

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« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2004, 01:40:11 AM »
Quote
I have a question....what is on the other side of a black hole? Where does everything go that get's sucked into the black hole?
There is no "other side", a black hole is so heavy that it compresses itself infinitly (well almost) all the matter and energy is there, it's just very compact.

A 1 dm square small black hole would easily consume the entire solarsystem.
When looking at other galaxies you can *drums* again with hubble see something black in the middle (surrounded by hot gasses) and everything rotates around it.

As we have concluded that our own universe is a spiral galaxy it's a safe bet to say that we also have a super massive black hole in the center. (although not so massive, the hole itself can be very small but the gravitation well is huge.)

Black holes are not rifts in space/time...

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   Actually saying that light cannot escape it has been proven wrong. I forgot where I saw that...I think it was CNN (television).

During very rare circumstances the black hole "chokes" on itself creating gaps in the gravity field allowing huge amounts of radiation (energy) (which in turn is light) to escape.

Once the black hole collapses (dies) it also lets free all the matter it has eaten (in mangled form)

So to make it easy saying that light cannot escape is true.
(If a black hole allowed light to frequently escape it wouldn't be very black would it, the reason you can actually see a black hole (well you cant really, just the surrounding matter) is among other because of the ring of matter it surrounds itself with. The ring gets heated and as such illuminates itself.)

Although im guessing CNN might have said it a bit differently, CNN is among other where op2hacker got his info that they had already found the wreckage of noah's ark  :rolleyes:

(and before you say, "Yes i heard about that, it's true. Suck on that one!". Read the other topic in which the whole deal was explained... Somewhere in the forum)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2004, 01:59:05 AM by Zircon »

Offline ZeusBD

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« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2004, 02:28:50 AM »
Are you saying that CNN doesn't know what they're talking about and make up crap all the time? I would have to call bulls*** there.
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Offline CK9

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« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2004, 09:09:04 AM »
Zues, it's called yellow journalism, it happens all the time, and because in the US there is freedom of the press, nothing can be done about it.  Isn't this just a great country, where a news company can make up a bunch of BS and no one can do much about it
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2004, 10:03:39 AM »
They don't make up totally false stories. To do that would be accepting of millions of complaints and hate mails.
Also they can't make false things about people, to do that would be illegal (libel)

What they DO do however, is slant the news to their bias (ex. politics this is done a lot, it seems that they slant it to agree more with the Democrats).

In regards to the noah's ark thing on top of the mountain, I didn't hear it off of CNN. News gets spread around to the different networks and pretty much everyone has it. (That's how it works here.... I don't know if it's like that where you live)

Offline CK9

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« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2004, 10:58:31 AM »
lol, hacker, they still have made a bunch of BS in their stories
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Offline jesusfreak06

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« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2004, 11:05:00 AM »
Quote
That was a very good article Garrettsgirl, and no matter what Zircon says to disprove it, I liked it. You don't have real proof that God does or doesn't exist, all you have is theories versus belief and faith. No one will ever be able to truely prove either way. I like this discussion and I hope that more interesting theories are brought up.

Glad that you liked it Zeus.  That's just it! The whole idea pf being a Christian is that you never really no whether Christ is real.  You have to have faith.  So Z, you proved pretty much proved every point wrong in that article.  Well, like Zeus pointed out, TRUE christians don't need science to prove or disprove (don'tno if that's a word) the existence of God.  It's all about faith.  Some got it, some don't.  Yeah CK9, i'm not good at understanding all this either, however, chem was the only science i never got a D in (i got a B  :D ).
« Last Edit: August 16, 2004, 11:06:51 AM by garrettsgirl »
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