Do you believe...

[jesusfreak06]

I think religion has taken much too much of a role in peoples lives, for one it serves no purpose, if there is a God in infonate love, infonate compassion, infonate patiance, do you really think he would punish you with the same sentence as he would somone who committed murder? if he does, he does not deserve to be God

let me ask u a question beta, if friend one has an abortion and friend two steals from a blind deaf person, do u think that the punishment is equal?  if not, who did the worse crime? you see w/ God, there is no such thing as a little sin.  stealing to him is the same as killing.  not only that, if you think meditate on either one, it's counted as commiting the sin b/c u didn't commit to it b/c of lack of oppertunity or fear of consequences.  btw beta, my foster parents feel that my relationship w/ God (aka my obsessive religion) is making me waste my teen years.  well, that's a bunch of bannanas!  i put my effort into what i believe and i feel that's better than not practicing what you preach!

(Ofcourse, you can always blame the scientific community of the US of having a gigantic conspiracy in bond with the devil in order to "harvest" as many souls as possible) or perhaps you'll simply point and laugh that i cant explain what went on before the big bang which is 100% proof that god exists, evolution is false, and that im just a mindless drone trying to suck your brains out... 

everyone should be able to have they're own beliefs.  look at america compared to iraq where you (and your family) could be murdered for talking about christ.  i think americans are trying to hard to find the quick answer to everything (fast food, microwaves, etc, etc) and i feel that is where the idea of evolution came from.  sammyk, u crack me up :heh:  well, how do u think char or diana would do in this conversation (thoses of u that live in portage)?

beta, r u agnostic?  

I do not see why people waste their time in this debate about weather God exists or not, it is a debate that has been raging for 2000 years, and you guys think that it can be rectafied in a offtopic forum?

yes it has been going on for thousands of years.  but if ur willing to die for what you believe (men and women killing themselves w/ bombs attached to their backs thinking they'll go to heaven if they kill us), then why not have debates about it?  this debate may not prove to eachother wether God exists or not, but it may give some insight to someone who is kinda hanging and needs that little push to get on either side of the fence.  i absolutely hated bio when i took it 2 years ago and yet i kinda uderstood what y'all were talking bout. i believe in creation over evolution and i feel that no one could possibly change my mind. B)  

people blidly follow the people who preach this, never questioning the trueness of it, never thinking it through and comming up with their own thoughts on the subject

to tell you the truth, i question what even my pastor preaches.  if i don't find it in the bible, i find it not to be true.  and we'll never no who is right untill death.  untill that time, we as humans should have faith in whatever we believe in.  i absolutely hate it when people are half and half.  all or nothin man!

[CK9]

all I have to say is that faith can speak loud, but faith cannot stand alone.

You are right and wrong in some respects.

True you'd generally get medical help, but in some cases you'll have gotten all the medical help you can and still have problems (eg. cancer) Faith is the only way you're gonna get anything done about it.

for example: I know about plenty of people who have gone thru all the treatments for cancer... The doctor/hospital/whatever says they will probably die soon.
Then they pray about, have faith that it will be cured, and the cancer regresses (cancerous cells die, uncontrolled cell division slows down / stops).

Now don't say that faith in a supreme being (God) can't help you.

 

it isn't the faith, but the strength of will that saves you.  For some, they need the faith to get the strength, for others it is unneccesarry.  my proof: plecebose.  If you are given one and told that it is a proven supliment that can increase your inteligance 10 fold and have no reason to doubt it, you will get smarter.  Several tests have proven that if you know it will hapen, your body will make it happen as long as it is not physically impossible (an example of physically impossible: changing into a different being).

and I will say it, faith in a higher being will not help me, cannot help me, and shall not help me (I know, two are basically the same)

[Betaray]

beta, r u agnostic?

no im hungry

hay, if you want to beleave somthing like that, no skin off my back, im consentrating on how to provide humanidy with a better non-polluting power sourse

but if you want to sit about worring about your own ass when you die thats fine with me

[jesusfreak06]

so beta, u think that Christ is a polluting power source?  Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good.  For example, we had a german living with us for two weeks (he's coming back to my house on the 10th of this month).  Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long.  they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12.  they don't believe in waiting till ur married and also start drinking beer at 14 and hard liquor at age 16.  Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side?  Don't you think that strong belief in a higher being would help stop sex as young as age 12?  i feel sad that kids younger than me are taught that having sex and drinking are sociable characteristics.

and y do u think that way about a higher being CK9?  have you ever given it a serious try?  i didn't want to either but then i got hooked and He has changed my life forever.  Don't know if you guys no, but i used to smoke and steal cigarrettes and would pass them out at school.  I have changed for the better and I'll share my story (not all of it though b/c it would be like  5 pages long) and if one person may benifit from it, then i fufilled my purpose.

[Betaray]

I have my own reasons for not careing



because frankly I have better things to do than to go about worring about what happonds to me when I die

one reason I have is, like I said before I think logicly, when we die we just cese to exist, there is no heaven, no hell, we just cese to think

everyone gets that same outcome, no matter how they lived their life on this world

another is a bit more out there, but I still plan for it

I do not plan to die, if need be, I will be frozen in statsis until cyborgnetic nanites have been perfected, at wich time I will be injected and become a cyborge on the nanological scale, every cell in my body will be part living cell, and part nanite, without getting technical, it would mean that it would be virtually impossible to kill me

um, how could a dude who lived 2000 years ago be a powersourse? I was talking about cold fusion!!!

[CK9]

so beta, u think that Christ is a polluting power source?  Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good.  For example, we had a german living with us for two weeks (he's coming back to my house on the 10th of this month).  Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long.  they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12.  they don't believe in waiting till ur married and also start drinking beer at 14 and hard liquor at age 16.  Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side?  Don't you think that strong belief in a higher being would help stop sex as young as age 12?  i feel sad that kids younger than me are taught that having sex and drinking are sociable characteristics.
 

actually, that's more of a sign of bad parenting.  (huh, if my great grandfather didn't come to america between the world wars...)

*shakes thought out of head* (that's against my personaly moral standards (and because of them I'm straightedge ))

it is more of a concious choice that the individual makes.  Also, you may want to take into account that that is not everyone there.  Some in that group make a decision not to, you cannot judge the whole on a fragmented knowledge.

[Zircon]

Don't know if you guys no, but i used to smoke and steal cigarrettes and would pass them out at school. I have changed for the better and I'll share my story (not all of it though b/c it would be like 5 pages long) and if one person may benifit from it, then i fufilled my purpose.

Sounds to me like you were quite desperate and pulled the first straw that was offered.
People that are more, lets say... Enlightened would never start smoking to begin with as they are aware of the dangers it hold.
Weak...

Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long. they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12.

Incorrect, while there may be a part of their society that chooses to live that kind of lifestye most are good people and they often have a much better self control of both drinking and "sex".

Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side?

Not necessarily, as long as someone can control their drinking it often leads to better "social skills". A glass of red wine a day also has many health benefits due to the large amount of both antioxidants and the red color substance protecting against cancer.

Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good.

For me for example believing in a "god" such as in the Christian church would have absolutely horrible effects. I place everyone equally and is among other a supporter of same sex marriage. Fortunately for the world the people in control such as the congress is more "enlightened" overruling the different wicked proposals that pop-up such as mr bush's marriage amendment. Over here it's been legal for years and this place isn't crumbling to ruins. It's almost funny that Sweden was voted to be one of the 5 best places to live in by an international comittee.

My scientific "obsession" would probably also plummet.
Religious "experiences" can among other be induced by a strong magnetic field placed against a part between the frontal and temporal lobe. Now im not saying that your religious "experiences" are fake or a mind ghost just that the same kind "real" "experiences" can be induced by science to the point that even priests can't tell which one is real or not. Spies in the old days were trained/programmed almost religiously so that they wouldn't reveal any information if captured, kinda like what garrettsgirl exhibits " if i don't find it in the bible, i find it not to be true. " and  "i believe in creation over evolution and i feel that no one could possibly change my mind." Such extreme devotion, fascinating... Al-Qaeda among other also shows such devotion. (no i did not say that you were an extremist just that many religions show the same type of "symptoms")

Even though the questions were directed to the others, i thought i might add some input...

[Betaray]

camon, me z and ck9 need some better oposistion lol

[CK9]

beta, don't push it.  If anyone wants to debate religion, PM me, we'll meet on IRC, other than there, I refuse to get into it.  I consider all you guys friends, which is rare for me to do so wiliningly, and I do not wish for something like religion to cause any rifts to form.

And as for the things garrett's Girl brought up, you are gathering incomplete info.  Plym was telling me of a debate on one of those christian youth chats about whether some bands were anti-christian or not, and from what I gathered from our conversation, they were basing it on maby one or two songs that didn't display the band's morals at all (that's actually pretty common (an example (and I know I bring it up often, but I find it a very good band to use as an example) would be AFI.  They are completely straight-edge, believe in 'waiting 'till marrage', ect... but thei song The Nephilim would most likely give a different impression bassed on the lyrics.  It's all in the nature of the music genre)

[ZeusBD]

so beta, u think that Christ is a polluting power source?  Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good.  For example, we had a german living with us for two weeks (he's coming back to my house on the 10th of this month).  Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long.  they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12.  they don't believe in waiting till ur married and also start drinking beer at 14 and hard liquor at age 16.  Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side?  Don't you think that strong belief in a higher being would help stop sex as young as age 12?  i feel sad that kids younger than me are taught that having sex and drinking are sociable characteristics.

and y do u think that way about a higher being CK9?  have you ever given it a serious try?  i didn't want to either but then i got hooked and He has changed my life forever.  Don't know if you guys no, but i used to smoke and steal cigarrettes and would pass them out at school.  I have changed for the better and I'll share my story (not all of it though b/c it would be like  5 pages long) and if one person may benifit from it, then i fufilled my purpose.

GarrettsGirl, I live in Germany. They are not provided with condoms (unless by their parents or friends), it's not as though the government is going around passing out condoms. Birth control can be gotten at an early age even here. There is no drinking age here, but it's not like back in the states, because they can drink here, they don't as much at that age. It isn't like in the states where your not supposed to, so you want to. People are haing sex at early ages in the states (I have close friends that lost their virginity before the age of 12). Kids are not being taught to have sex here, it is just something they do.

But just because I'm correcting that doesn't mean that I don't side with you on your religious beliefs. Ask yourself, what was before the universe? When did time begin? Before the universe was there nothing? If so, what was before that? Time couldn't just begin, there has always been somthing out there. It is impossible to go to the begining of time, because what was before it. God has always been, just like time. There was no before God just like there was no before time.

I believe in God and go every Sunday to church to praise him. I sing in the praise team, I get the sound system set properly, on Thursday's I help out with the meals for single and TDY (it's a military thing, basically they're away from their regular base and are temporarily here) because sometimes they don't have friends or family here and that gives them a chance to get some good home cooking and to meet and talk with people.

If there is no God and we are all here just by chance, then He is still doing good. Just believing in him and living a Christian life has helped many people by helping the community, having something to look forward to after death, and having a common ground with many people that you don't even know (which is one big way you can get to know good people).

[Zircon]

In a way time is a human thing because "time" is a relative matter.
As seen from the atomic clock sent into space, gravity or rather gravitons affect time although very little. In something very heavy like the event horizon of a black hole "time" almost stands still, or that is atleast what the current theory states.

--------------

Now that "god" has been diminished into two basic principles that he is A; supernatural "
And, if someone/something is supernatural, do they have to follow laws of physics? No, because they don't exist as any matter or detectable energy." and B; That he/she/it is a being outside space/time it is not debatable anylonger as science to even begin with classifies something "supernatural" as nonexistant or impossible.

So far any attempts made by the people on this forum to either A: disprove evolution or B: Scientificly prove god has proven to be either "stupidities" or lies (example: the second law)

As garretsgirl likes to say it is now up to "faith" to decide if either to believe in the world ruled by science (aka laws) or the supernatural which has so far proven to have no real connection with either the physical world or science.

While it is true that one cant even speculate what might have been before the first bigbang science accepts it as a mystery while religion fills the gap with "god" based on a 2000 year old "legacy" that had its first scriptures written over 70 years after "jesus" originally died at year zero.

[ZeusBD]

As I said before, if God left proof that he existed, then we wouldn't have faith, we'd just be following what we knew existed. God wants people to believe in him and have faith that he exists, he doesn't want you to follow him because you have to.

Do you have even one piece of edvidence that proves he doesn't exist?

[Zircon]

Do you have even one piece of evidence that proves he doesn't exist?

I have never once said on this forum that he/she/it doesn't "exist" (and no, bringing up the post where i said i was an atheist wont do) what i have done however is defend science when you try to make science look empty by either bringing up lies like the second law, in order to disprove evolution or try to make the creation of a habitable planet look impossible.

Religion is religion, science is science. Religion should not and does not have any connection with science, the creation of planet or evolution or even the big bang as basicly all astronomical data gathered points to it. With hubble and some basic knowledge you can literally see the result of a "big bang"

The question is irrelevant because how to even begin with do you gather evidence to prove that something supernatural with either no mass nor energy does not exist that by previous said terms do not exist in any tangible form.

[CK9]

As I said before, if God left proof that he existed, then we wouldn't have faith, we'd just be following what we knew existed. God wants people to believe in him and have faith that he exists, he doesn't want you to follow him because you have to.
 

this has been brought up before, and I will answer it the same way:

just because it is fact dosen't mean it has to be followed/worshiped.  A bad comparrison, but IMHO a good example of this is WW2.  It was a fact that Hitler was taking over country after country and had the support of thousands(possibly millions, but my numbers are a bit inaccurate there), but just because he was the leader doesn't mean everyone followed him.  There were many germans who only fought for him to prevent being murdered by him, even then some would porpusly miss their intended targets.  Also, when the french government surrendered to the nazis, there were still hundreds of french soldiers who refused to follow the intentions of those in power and continued fighting against them.

like I said, bad comparison, lol


(BTW, Zues, I was told by a German foreign exchange student that it is illegal to own a book on Hitler there.  Is that true in all parts of Germany?)

[jesusfreak06]

well, my takes on Germany are only from the Germans that i no.  We having one living w/ us (tommorrow) and i only no about Germany w/ what he told me.  i didn't mean to offend any Germans and probably could've been a little less judgemental.  Sry.  well, z, you never cease to suprise me!  Well, i'd have to say the same for CK9 too.  well, this chat about religion has come far and i enjoy every minute of it.   B)  

[plymoth45]

Please no arguments about the trinity, went through another one of those last night on a yahoo chat room and got rather frusterated as I left my notes at my church with my bible.

[CK9]

I am amazing?  wow

[jesusfreak06]

well, you and z always have something to say.  (too bad it's not always what i wanna hear).  lol :heh:  one of my friends stuck her head over my shoulder when i was reading the posts and she told me to tell z to shut up.  lol.  he's very knoweledgeable though.   B)

plym, that must've stunk w/o having ur bible.  i practically need to read my bible everyday.  lol

[CK9]

Tell her I say she should be nice to z, he is indeed a very knowing person, and very kind, we could all learn something from Z...and no, I'm not brown noseing, I'm stating my honest opinion, so stop it with the gesture

[ZeusBD]

(BTW, Zues, I was told by a German foreign exchange student that it is illegal to own a book on Hitler there.  Is that true in all parts of Germany?)

I know that it is illegal to where any clothing with the nazi symbol on it (I don't know how to spell it and dictionary.com was no help). The German's are try to keep their image away from the Nazi's. They don't want to be associated with them. I haven't heard anything about book's about Nazi's or Hitler, but with how they are about everything else, I wouldn't doubt it at all.

And yes be nice to Zircon, even though he may have different views, he is still one of God's children and we should all love him for it.

[Zircon]

I feel so loved  :wub:  

[CK9]

it is spelt swastica, I believe (I read a lot of books of many genres)

quick question to Zircon:  why'd you remove that cool pic you had as a sig?

[Betaray]

and I see that I have not been brought up in any of this

thus I am not one of God's children

swwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttttttttttttttttt

[Zircon]

quick question to Zircon:  why'd you remove that cool pic you had as a sig?

A bit offtopic but im guessing you're referring to the one i used to have at the outpost congregation with the glowing crystal on one side and the wolfy on the other.

Basicly because it's old, i dont like it and my current avatar sucks enough bandwidth (modem users) as it is...

[jesusfreak06]

I'm stating my honest opinion, so stop it with the gesture

 was that directed at my laughing smiley or what?  

actually, it says in the bible that you become a child of God untill you believe and recieve Christ.  don't no how u guys relationships w/ Christ are so i can't tell you if u truely are or not.  it also says he gave us the right to become his children but we have to do our part.

hey beta.  how r u?  and z, i respect ne and all of your and CK9's expainations.  i think it's great you two no so much stuff that i'll never understand.  i'm not brown noseing either...