Outpost Universe Forums

Off Topic => General Interest => Topic started by: jesusfreak06 on July 19, 2004, 11:02:28 PM

Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on July 19, 2004, 11:02:28 PM
Hey guys.  I would like to share w/ u the story about a friend who turned out to be more than a friend.  You see, b 4 this friend was in my life, i was a wreck.  My father had hung himself when I was in 4th grade and i loved to tell about how i would smoke and drink and steal (untill i got caught that is).  I though people would love me b/c i had gone through a hard time and dealt w/ it through hanging w/ the "bad" crowd.  I cared only about my self and my mother 2nd on my list of favorites.  I didn't dave a dad, so she was all i had besides my sis (18 now) and my bro (7 now).   In December 2002 I was introduced to a man named Christ and became a born again Christian in Feb 2003.  This was also around the time I actually cared about going out w/ Garrett (that's another story).  I hade made new church friends and i loved my new church.  Little did i know how much i would need my new found friend.  When I was in 6th grade my mom was diagnosed w/ breast cancer.  No big deal they said... as long as it didn't come back.  She was only 35 years old!  We were happy when we heard that she was in remission and would make a full recovery. The sad thing is is that the doctors said if she was diagnosed again, the reality was she wouldn't react to treatment and would die early.  In Feb. 2003 my mother of age 39 was rediagnosed w/ breast cancer.  I cried so much when i found this out.  I loved my mother.  She had been the first thing on my mind when i woke up in the morning and the last before i went to bed.   She wasn't responding to treatment and i spent my 15th b day shopping for gifts in wal-mart b/c she was too tired.  by now it spread to her brain and she was dying.  She hooked us up w/ a foster family (totally different religion than i which is an extreme stuggle every Sunday).  She passed away on Oct. 26 and buried on Oct. 29 (Garrett's 16 B-day).  You see, God was there for me every step of the way (garrett and my church also). Sooooooooooooooooooo, if you don't believe in Christ Jesus, my life is a living, breathing testimony to His existence.  Anyone one here lose a parent... any one lose both?  I could never have gone through my mother's death w/o Christ.  Does any one else have anything to say about Jesus... I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on July 19, 2004, 11:21:55 PM
I know Jesus was a real person, there is historic proof to that.  However, I do not follow any theism, I find that there are too many corruptions within them and will remain closed minded when it comes to my system of beliefs (which has gotten several people pissed off at me in debates about religion (and I admit that I have gone over the line several times)).  I do realize the power in faith of a higher being, I have seen what it has done, but I also know that one doesn't have to have faith to make miraculous things happen (heck, I've done several things that people, including myself, thought were way beyound my abilities.  The only reason I was able to do it was because part of me knew I could.)

I can respect that you all really have deep faith in your religions, that's what you want in your life.  But when people, such as garrett the other night, try to change my way of thinking, I'm going to get mean about things.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on July 20, 2004, 05:17:01 AM
Sorry for your loss...

-----------------

Isn't it strange that people start believing in christ when someone dies or is dying, or when they are having troubled time. It's like some kind of parasitic disease on a mental level grabbing people when they are in their weakest.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: it2000us on July 20, 2004, 06:26:52 AM
I dont know if this fits here, but when i went to get my drivers licence last saturday i swore to start believing in god if i passed the test. The next thing i know the instructor comes up to my car and tells me that i cant take the test because my car registration is out of date. Itsnt that efed up.

So there goes my belief in god....
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on July 20, 2004, 07:54:31 AM
It2000us, see now that's just sad. You asked for a driver's license in exchange for belief in God. That's probably why you failed it, because if you started due to that, it wouldn't be a true belief and it would definitely not be a true love. You have to accept christ into your heart because you want to be saved, not because you want life to be easier.

GarrettsGirl, I am truely sorry for your lose. I lost my grandmother to a brain tumor and I know how it feels to watch someone suffer. My Step-Mother recently had 3 different types of cancer, but recovered. I'm not saying that I know how you feel, because there's no way I could. I'm glad that you found Christ and have accepted him into your heart and I know that he is taking good care of your mother up in heaven. May God bless you.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on July 26, 2004, 11:45:58 PM
B) No offense, but after IYC (n e one who went will agree w/ me on this one) i feel that God has blessed me and istead if seeing "God bless America" bumper stckers we should be seeing "America, Wake up and Bless God!"  I believe God has blessed all of us and we should be praying that he lives through us and that we may bless him.. Just a little thougt for you all.  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on July 27, 2004, 12:16:13 AM
I'm Sorry for your loss Garrettsgirl.

------------------------------------------------

A little more then a year ago I was probably the most picked on person in school. Then I came to christ and started believing in him. The next thing I new I was getting along much better with people (also i think it is because they are getting sence knocked into them by age). I had prayed about it several times though. I also prayed to him to keep my parents together when they were fighting a lot and today they both still live together. The Truth is, God is the greatest thing that happened in mylife, as i'm sure it is in many other peoples.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on July 27, 2004, 07:37:03 AM
My Father just got back from a mission trip down to Mexico and God watched them the whole time. They couldn't get across the border the first try and when they went back into the big city, the altenator blew up. If they would have gone across the border and then had it happened they would have been in deep crap.

Down there the Catholic Priests are preaching that American's are evil and that you'll go to Hell if you talk to us. I think that this is sad and I hope to be able to go next year with them to spread the word that American's aren't evil, God loves us all. I would encourage everyone to try and make a difference in someone's life. If you find the nerd of the school that always gets picked on and you befriend him, therefore building up his confidence and his soul, than you are showing God's love.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: garrettsbro on July 27, 2004, 07:40:59 AM
My parents probably wouldnt let me go on a missions trip ,but that would be cool. I think i'll just stay in the states and stw.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on July 27, 2004, 09:48:26 AM
i think if ur parents went w/ u they'd let u.  lol :D.  I agree that God is the best thing that's ever happend to me.  I absolutely love telling everyone about Him, which is why i posted in the first place.  There are many types of priests that are leading people in the wrong direction.  For instance, in Spain people are taught that if they walk this special trail that's like 100,000 miles long, they'll only have to spend about have as long in Purgatory.  What kind crap is that?  Also in the US priests teach if people pray for u after u die u will make it into heaven... whatever!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on July 27, 2004, 10:37:52 AM
Catholic Preists have basically made themselves God. The reason that they tell people in Spain and in Mexico what they do is so that people won't convert and then they'll lose power and money (I am married to a Hispanic woman who converted, so I know). It is no longer about God to them, it is about themselves.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on July 27, 2004, 02:22:21 PM
garrettsgirl: IYC? anything like CIY (if you ever heard of it) I have been to CIY before but never heard of IYC (possible misspelling?)

I have somewhat of a testimony to share as well.

I grew up in a christian home. I had an older brother who was 7 yrs older than me. he was born with Cerebral Palsy (its a disorder that affects the brains ability to coordinate movement of muscles.. this includes not only arms legs etc but also digestive muscles, vocal cords, etc so digestion is slow and theres very little bowel control, and speech is hard to understand. sometimes CP can also result in mental retardation... I dont think that was the case in my brother however.) he was NOT paralyzed or anything. Just couldn't control enough to be able to stand, etc.

He had to use a wheelchair to get anywhere because he wasnt able to stand on his feet without help. He had to have all these special devices like shower chair, etc and had to wear diapers. He needed to be lifted into and out of bed. He needed constant assistance from someone.

We (my family) was proud of him because he was able to go to normal regular ed school (he was originally in special ed but my mom was able to bail him out of that cuz he could do things, just didn't have the means to express them. (he couldn't write) We were thankful to God also, because he wasn't expected to live at birth (he was born with an infection, this caused the brain damage which caused CP.) However he came out alright.

On February 11th, 1995 my mom and dad went to get him out of bed. He wasn't breathing, he had no pulse. We called 911 and the ambulance came, etc but there was nothing they could do for him. He was pronounced dead that day.

The autopsy came back saying "Cause of death unknown."
We couldn't think of anything either, his health was perfect. His death was a fluke, more or less, without reason.

However we finally came to a conclusion. This conclusion was that God took him to Heaven to be with Him, to save him from the earth and his broken body.

The Bible tells us that Christians will be kept on earth until they have fulfilled God's purpose, and then they will die. (This reminds me of a man that was very active in my church. He was one of the greatest Christians that I knew and was never ashamed to talk about God. He died about 2 months ago in a freak motorcycle accident. He was only 37 (I think))

However, after my brothers death I sort of doubted God. I thought, "WHY did you have to let this happen?" I became less of a christian. I listened to satanic music, and would talk about drugs and sex with my friends all the time.

More recently however, I've realized a need for God and have begun to come back to Him (which has not been easy)

I'm very glad to be able to share my testimony.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on July 27, 2004, 03:15:43 PM
That was a very touching and sad story Hacker. I'm very sorry that you had to go through that. You have to look at it as God saw his pain and brought him up so that he wouldn't have to suffer. I am really glad that your through your phase and that you've found God again.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on July 27, 2004, 04:58:47 PM
I really don't know what it is like to go through loosing a family member, as the only family member I have lost in my lifetime is my great grandmother, and I didn't know her well enough to really feel anything. Also, my mother has CP, she can't work her right side hardly at all, and has to wear a brace on her right leg so she can walk right.

Now, does everyone agree with John 3:16 and 17?

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Those 2 versus are perhaps my favorite verses.
Another one of my favorites is a verse somewhere in mathew that says
"Ask, and the door be open unto you"
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on July 28, 2004, 11:20:23 AM
John 3:16 is my favorite verse. It is basically the most important message in the Bible. Telling about God's love for us and it tells us to believe in Christ. The one verse right there kinda sums everything up.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Sammyk on July 28, 2004, 04:02:42 PM
Hey OP, no one ever said its easy and i will be praying for you. Congradulations!!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Ben362 on July 28, 2004, 04:27:12 PM
ahh yes John 3:16 "the Gospel in a nutshell"
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: garrettsbro on July 31, 2004, 01:34:52 PM
My favorite verse is Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god" Thats where you begin too realize that" Hey maybe I'm not perfect."
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 01, 2004, 09:13:20 AM
OP, sry bout ur bro.  Losing a family member and keeping your faith is hard to balance.  I'll pray that u make a full recovery in your walk w/ God.  One of my favorite verses is 1 Corinthians 10:21 which says that u can't drink from God's cup and the cup of the devil too.  You have to chose to be all for God or none.  Also, Psalms 27 is my favorite psalm.   Short but sweet.  Read it and tell me ur input.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 01, 2004, 09:14:53 AM
oh yeah, OP, IYC is the international youth convention for the church of God.  What's CYI?
 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Kiith Somtaaw on August 01, 2004, 02:05:37 PM

What can I say about Christ.

Well, Let me put it simple..


Religion + Me =  :yawn:



 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 01, 2004, 07:07:39 PM
ever seen the movie Dogma? well thats my take on relagion

I also agree with George Carlin
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 01, 2004, 09:34:14 PM
i no many people that think religion is :yawn: .  But what i'm talking about is a relationship.  What i have w/ Christ isn't about religion.  You can smoke and drink religiously can you not?  Well, i love my relationship w/ Christ and it has made me a better person and i'm willing to tell the whole world. :D  Many people preach about religion.  What i'm proposing is people chatting about their relationships w/ Christ.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 01, 2004, 10:01:46 PM
:'( Our Pianist for our church passed away yesterday at 5 AM GMT -7.
Our service ran a little overtime because we had kind of a memorial service to her as part of the main service. She died physicaly of colon cancer, but just before she died, she came out of her coma, her eyes got really big, bigger then her husband had ever seen them get, then she stopped breathing. We think, and hope that what she saw when she opened her eyes was Jesus.

Just the thought of her being with the lord makes me happy, even though my church and I our morning over her physical death.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 01, 2004, 10:38:34 PM
WOW.  That's a touching story,  I really hope that it was Christ she saw.  Sry for your loss.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 02, 2004, 03:52:09 AM
Quote
She died physicaly of colon cancer, but just before she died, she came out of her coma, her eyes got really big, bigger then her husband had ever seen them get, then she stopped breathing. We think, and hope that what she saw when she opened her eyes was Jesus.

Not to be mean or something but most doctors/scientists would rather agree upon that what she experienced was the last throws of a dying body resulting in... unmeasurable cramp like pain...

That is until the neurons start to dislodge (occurs when the brain doesn't have sufficient oxygen) from each other making the hypothalamus release a very strong anesthesia but that happens about 2-3 minutes after she is declared dead...

The brains of people who have their head chopped off continue to live for atleast 1-3 minutes on some level, but the pain probably throws them into a coma like state. Hers was disturbed on the other hand making the brain react to the pain (big eyes) another way it could have happened is that she was still in coma just that when the body died it also cramped resulting in the probably abnormally large eyes.

If it makes you feel better you can think that the "soul" has already left the body when the pain sets in but dont try to tell me that it aint painless becuase the limbic system that handles among other pain literally goes off the chart...
(just so that i dont have to explain myself later, not all kinds of death are as painful as this, if for example someone dies in their sleep the pain is not as apparent because once it arrives the hypothalamus has already started producing the anesthesia. Lethal injection is also very painful the last couple of seconds (depends on the specific contests of the injection) but not very apparent, drowning can also be very painful as the body will cramp but then fall into coma like state and die that way, i could continue with other kinds of deaths but i wont do that.)

If she was conscious once her eyes went up (although in severe pain) she probably also experienced the so called "tunnel of light" which occurs once dilation of the pupils and a lack of oxygen in the visual cortex (fovea) increases, resulting in a bright center  and an encroaching darkness around it. (sorta like a tunnel vision with a high contrast)
 
But this is all evil science so you can disregard it if you like...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 02, 2004, 01:52:10 PM
Um, Z, just the fact that you know this much about death is kind of disturbing
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 02, 2004, 02:40:45 PM
gee z, thanks for crushing my spirits.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 02, 2004, 05:07:39 PM
watch the discovery channel sometime lol

damn z nice  (thumbsup)  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 02, 2004, 10:05:57 PM
well z, glad ur bringing this info to us.  the day b 4 my mom passed away she went unresponsive (we didn't go see her b/c my sis and i had a football game to go to and thought, well, we'll have another chance).  Little did we no the next morning my foster parents woke us up crying saying our mom had passed.   We then went and visited her body in the hospital she was stayed at.  BIG mistake. I'll have to live w/ that pic of my mom 4 ever.  Back to the point, every one has different out looks on science (i've never done good w/ that subject untill this past year when i got a b on my report card ever!)  I personally believe what is supposed to happen is gonna.  And plym, if u wanna believe that she might have seen Christ, then more power to ya. In the end, no one really knows what the truth is... evolution or creation.  It's all up to u and how much faith your willing to lay down.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 02, 2004, 10:28:47 PM
all I have to say is that faith can speak loud, but faith cannot stand alone.

i.e.: If you break your arm, faith in a higher being isn't going to instantly heal it.  Also, in this scenario, if you do not get the proper treatment while it is healing, the bone most likely won't set properly and the arm will have to be re-broken so that it can be healed properly.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 03, 2004, 01:38:23 AM
I believe in science, and i have always done well in science, but I also believe in christ (even though I sometimes loose it at my sister or others, like earlier today). I may sin like that sometimes, but i always repent.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 03, 2004, 08:12:14 PM
and who here hasn't found it to be fun to be evil every once in a while? *picks up hammer and action figure*  hehehe, batman base ball

anyway, I do not feel that faith has any influence on my life, either way, I'd still choose the same paths that I have taken.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 04, 2004, 12:00:57 AM
I believe science is a great thing and that they are correct on nearly everything except human evolution. I believe that evolution is a real thing, but only after what God made. What I mean is this: God made everything on Earth, but gave us the ability to adapt and change according to our surroundings. Many species have evolved since God made them. I believe that if you looked at Adam and Eve and then look at a human now, there would be some small differences.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 04, 2004, 12:05:01 AM
I agree, there probably would be some diferences. If the human body wasn't able to adapt to certain conditions then the human race would have long ago preished, hence the reason God made us so we could adapt.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on August 04, 2004, 08:04:29 AM
Quote
all I have to say is that faith can speak loud, but faith cannot stand alone.
You are right and wrong in some respects.

True you'd generally get medical help, but in some cases you'll have gotten all the medical help you can and still have problems (eg. cancer) Faith is the only way you're gonna get anything done about it.

for example: I know about plenty of people who have gone thru all the treatments for cancer... The doctor/hospital/whatever says they will probably die soon.
Then they pray about, have faith that it will be cured, and the cancer regresses (cancerous cells die, uncontrolled cell division slows down / stops).

Now don't say that faith in a supreme being (God) can't help you.

Regarding evolution, I can think of many examples where science itself contradicts itself.

(One example: 2nd law of thermodynamics. It states that time and entropy are directly proportional to each other (entropy basically means disorder, chaos) (study direct variation: as one variable increases, so does the other).
In laymans terms the world will get more chaotic as time continues.

This contradicts evolution.
The generic "evolutionary process" is, as time increases things get more complex/better/more organized (look, referring to 2nd law, T=time, E=entropy, in the evolutionary example TE=k where k is a constant; in other words, inverse variation. Inverse variation is the opposite of direct variation)

So basically, one of those laws or processes is incorrect. And that has to be evolution because it hasn't been proven. the 2nd law of thermodynamics has been proven and continues to be proven every day (the 2nd law explains why things wear out (eg. batteries/lightbulbs die, drive components of cars wear out, highways get damaged, etc). Evolution cannot be positively proven.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 04, 2004, 11:21:27 AM
----------Incoming Rant Seek Shelter----------

You Christians have been using that crap since a very long time ago, atleast bring something up that even my guinea pig hasn't already heard about.

What you dont understand is that thermodynamic probabilities are not fixed entities which has led to a widespread and totally false belief that the second law of thermodynamics does not permit order to spontaneously arise from disorder.

In nature there are many things proving this, Snowflakes with their six-sided crystalline symmetry which are formed spontaneously from randomly moving water vapor molecules, Salts with precise planes of crystalline symmetry form spontaneously when water evaporates from a solution. As with the other crap that mustang09-06 posted "One of our days is MISSING, poll on an article about a day missing" you're twisting one theory/fact into something it isnt.

It's as lame as what Ben362 said

Quote
common examples of creating things randomly are to take a piece of paper and throw a handful of sand at it, repeat as needed until you have some pre determined composition like the US declaration of independence.

Either you are ignorant or <beep> enough to misunderstand the fact (regarding the current theory) that evolution is an atomic process, as with DNA it cannot specify how a person should look (dont you dare twist "how a person should look"!) or how every bloodvessel or neuron should be placed, it simply creates the fractal patterns which other biological mechanisms then use. (directed primarily at Ben362)

(This is just one explanation, the second law also has small loopholes and some say that while a certain part of a closed system may become more chaotic another part can get more structured. Then we have the ones that say we aren't in a closed system but that's just... odd because the rule would apply anyway... Also if you follow the law to the letter life is essentially impossible, but no one cares to mention that, no... etc etc)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 04, 2004, 05:41:17 PM
the thing about entropy is that yes, things break down with time, but that is because they are not able to repair themselves, the main thing that distinguishes living things from non-living things is their ability to repair themselves, using energy to reform proteins to repair their cell structure, that same system would also allow duplacation of the entity (eg reproduction)

if life was not capeable of such a feat, than yes it would break down just like everything else

that same system also allows for modular designs (eg cells) and when a design is modular, it is normally designed to be upgraded (eg hubble)

now with god, do you really think, would make a verson of life so obvisually designed to upgrade itself, and make it so that would not be so?

just the fundamental structure of life seems basicly designed to adjust/change/adapt to new surroundings, if it wasnt than life would never have flurished all accross the Earth

nothing that dosn't adapt to its suroundings would survive them very long, and it is widely known that Earth has gone through some very extreme ecological changes(eg ice age), if life would not have been able to adapt to the changes than most of it would have been wiped out

now the ice ages happoned as recently as around 10,000 years ago, yet we have evendince of life later than 100 million years ago, givin even the fact that those 7 days were millions of years, anamals were all made in the same "day", and if God made it so that adaptation/evolution did not take place, than they would not have been able to survive the climate change

we know that bacteria evolove, we have seen it happon under the microscope, the fundamental structure of bacteria, the system for rearanging proteins, the DNA system that every other cell on earth has is the same

so why would bacteria be granted such a gift, while all of its brethren on earth be denied it, it dosnt make since eathor on a scientific, or spritual scale

myself, I normally don't think about spritural matters much, and thus havn't really thought about wether there is a God or not, I beleave that it is a question that can not be answerd until we die

but somthing like evolution, you can think of it logicly, and when you do, you have to come to the conculsion that life not able to adapt and evolve would be impossible

life is always trying to reach a higher state, that is why the fish came to the land, they could raise their internal body tempreture, and thus acheve a higher rate of matabalism, allowing it to acheve more and better things, to become dinosures

to become man

 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 04, 2004, 10:10:49 PM
aaaahhhhhh... more science!   :blink:

Quote
i myself, I normally don't think about spritural matters much, and thus havn't really thought about wether there is a God or not, I beleave that it is a question that can not be answerd until we die

well, you can go ahead and do that.  Christianity is nothing but faith and having faith that when you die God will be there.  i'd rather have faith and die and there be no God than to not have faith and die to find that there is a God and u end up going to hell.  so wether there is a God or not better to be safe and try than to take a chance.  

Quote
You Christians have been using that crap since a very long time ago...

i may not no a lot about science, but i feel don't need to know about that stuff.  there is no doubt in my mind that God exists and i'll faithfully follow him all of my days.  :D    [/size]
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 04, 2004, 10:44:22 PM
Amen Garretsgirl, i totaly agree with you.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 04, 2004, 11:42:39 PM
hay, im not saying there isnt a god, somthing had to have created the universe, im just saying that the notion of life not evolving goes against life itself
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 05, 2004, 02:09:43 AM
Beta, didn't we say that the human race has evolved, hence the ability of Adaptation.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 05, 2004, 04:11:42 AM
Quote
Quote
You Christians have been using that crap since a very long time ago...

i may not no a lot about science, but i feel don't need to know about that stuff.  there is no doubt in my mind that God exists and i'll faithfully follow him all of my days.  :D

Sorry about the namecalling :blush: It's just that i see the "the second law of thermodynamics" almost daily because i visit several other forums and it's always the same story down to the letter of what op2hacker wrote. It gets quite irritating dealing with it so many times and then having op2hacker who usually has very intelligent insight bring it up...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 05, 2004, 04:55:42 AM
God exist's in my mind without a doubt. You can look at the universe forming in the big bang and say "well there one in a quin-tillion chance that it would happen and it just happened to" or you can look at it as God shaped everything just right. What are the chances that the universe would come out just right, and the planet earth just happened to come from a huge rock that couldn't support life and all of a sudden life appeared? Think about it. The atmosphere just happened to be just right so that all of the bad stuff would get blocked out, if one layer had been missing, we wouldn't be able to live here. We just happened to be the right distance from the sun, the air that we breathe just happened to not contain anything that would kill us. There are just too many things that if they were even the slightest bit off, we wouldn't be here right now. Now I know that there is one-in-a-(whatever the highest number possible is besides an infinity) chance that it would fall into place to support life, but wouldn't it be easier just to believe that there is a higher presence that is doing all of this?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 05, 2004, 05:33:30 AM
Quote
What are the chances that the universe would come out just right, and the planet earth just happened to come from a huge rock that couldn't support life and all of a sudden life appeared? Think about it. The atmosphere just happened to be just right so that all of the bad stuff would get blocked out, if one layer had been missing, we wouldn't be able to live here. We just happened to be the right distance from the sun, the air that we breathe just happened to not contain anything that would kill us. There are just too many things that if they were even the slightest bit off, we wouldn't be here right now. Now I know that there is one-in-a-(whatever the highest number possible is besides an infinity) chance that it would fall into place to support life, but wouldn't it be easier just to believe that there is a higher presence that is doing all of this?
For the love of ! (http://www.bonetweb.com/Zircon/smilies/swear2.gif)

To even begin with i'll quote what i posted earlier in another thread.

Quote
Incorrect, this solar system has 8-10 planets (depending if you count pluto and sedna)
Overall you could say each solar system has 4-5 planets. (overestimate underestimate i dunno)

Beyond our solar system there are other solar systems among other Alpha Centauri (4.3-4.4 light years from here) Alpha Centauri is believed (theory) to have one planet that could support life. They have also seen planets where oxygen is streaming from and other tests have shown that water isnt very uncommon in solarsystems.
(water eats certain spectras therefore you can with a mediocre accuracy predict that there are planets with possible water in solar systems)

To get back on the point, if we zoom out alot we get to see the beginning of the "milky way" and the spiral arm we are part of. That single part of the spiral arm consists of billions of solarsystems. That the entire milky way it becomes a lot of solar system with a medium of 4-5 planets. And then if we zoom out even more we will begin to see other "spirals" or discs, if we go even longer these spirals will also begin to form a bigger pattern of its own. This final pattern is formed like a shockwave that is growing. In other words the "universe"

So we have 4-5 planets per solarsystem, which is within a spiral arm consisting of billions of solarsystems which are within a spiral which has several "arms" and the spirals are part of the ever expanding universe. So we have something near infinity multiplied by a billion multiplied by a billion billions multiplied by 4-5.

Counting that there may be one habitable planet in one billion planets (very small amount, there are probably more habitable planets in this number) there are still a pretty big amount of habitable planets out there and perhaps alot of lifeforms.

Take this times for example "the quantum foam" that speaks of the "ovals" A Universe like ours is just a small part of the big picture.

This should correct both CK's understatement *gleee* happy.gif and stick a hole within luweegs "But how in the world do you explain how this planet got so lucky, just the right size, right distance, right temperature, it has to be a act of god. OR just the very existence of life itself, i'm not talking about multi-celled organisms, but the first ones, why did the single celled organisms appear in the first place." balloon.

It's like lottery, the chance is very small. But it does happen. And with so many planets the chances are incredibly good smile.gif In other words, it is rather an impossibility that there would be no other habitable planets.

Second, It wasn't a ROCK! Space dust, nebular remains which in turn is either the result of a supernova gone awry or the death of a black hole expulsing all matter.
Creating a planet is a five stage process (can be discussed) with lots of smaller processes/stages. One of the possible things is that the space dust as observed by the Cassini (although in small very small scale) can amass into smaller objects giving of a very small and faint gravity pull which will create a disc amassing further mass, it continues with other stages and several rebuilds, and saying that the atmosphere wouldn't be hazardous, it's been hazardous and very hot for a long time very long ago. (i will not explain the entire process)

We have already seen planets eating up several parts of the broad spectrum that are in accordance with both water and oxygen. Even mars had water, and lots of it. Possibly life also. A failed experiment of god perhaps?

In essence, no the chance isn't as miniscule as you say and according to possibilities the presence of a supernatural being breaking all known laws is far less likely then the creation of a habitable planet... far less...

(wee, im on a debate spree. I wonder if im just wasting my time or actually creating some additional neural activity) (http://www.bonetweb.com/Zircon/smilies/swear.gif)

(isn't it rather strange having this question from a guy who has the "I will use google before asking asking dumb questions" in his signature)

Edit: To answer the original question, yes it might be "simpler". But losing the  astronomical and biological knowledge gained and to be gained from this would cost both our generation and future generations to such a gigantic degree that the years of 2000 would be known as another dark age...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on August 05, 2004, 07:55:57 AM
Alright, you're entitled to your opinion.

I have seen proof of God. (Don't ask... I'm sure the other Christians here know what I'm referring to, they've had similar experience I'm sure) I haven't seen proof of anything that the scientists have told us with their standard model.

(and I'm gonna believe God, not the standard model unless someone can give me proof that the standard model is true. No one can give that proof).

And, if someone/something is supernatural, do they have to follow laws of physics? No, because they don't exist as any matter or detectable energy.

(The test: go somewhere where you are convinced there is something supernatural. Now, take every instrument you have. First of all try to pick the being up. There's no matter there, you can't. Try to measure the resistance across it with a voltmeter. You can't, the voltmeter will give infinite resistance. Try to measure light output or radioactivity. Nil.)

Quote
we know that bacteria evolove, we have seen it happon under the microscope, the fundamental structure of bacteria, the system for rearanging proteins, the DNA system that every other cell on earth has is the same

Yes. It's called microevolution. Adaptation. Whatever you want to call it.

All living organisms change a little thru mutations, and thru sharing genetic material (AKA sex). Bacteria have other ways to transfer genetic material. They can transfer material thru conjugation, with each other AND with viruses.
(And if you don't believe me, go back to 10th grade biology. It's there)

As far as actually believing evolution:

Does it even SOUND realistic? No.
The likelihood of pure randomness producing an exact pattern of A's, C's, G's, and T's (the four bases in DNA) to form a human? Not likely.
The way protein synthesis works? (It's almost like a computer.. many enzymes convert DNA to mRNA, which the ribosome can interpret and attach a string of amino acids to form a protein. There is logic to it, just like opcodes in machine code for computers, there are codons in the RNA strand, which tell the ribosome to either add another amino acid, or stop reading the strand (yes, stop codons). Not to mention after the ribosome releases the string of amino acids, the string folds and forms a final protein. (We don't even know why they fold the way they do yet.. that's why there are programs like Folding@home to test this)

And this happened merely by pure chance?! Probability is at least 1 in 1,000,000,000 (thats 1 billion).

So if we take that ratio:
success rate (1 / 1,000,000,000) = 0.000000001
percentage = 0.0000001 %

for all mathematical intents and purposes, that number is 0. Ask any mathematician: he/she will say you might as well call it 0 because it's too small to be of much use.

That's like saying if I were to go on my Linux box and type at a shell prompt:
Code: [Select]
cat /dev/random
that it would start outputting the contents of say, sheets.vol from op2 or something.

(Note to non unix people: cat is the command to output text from a file; /dev/random is a special file that generates random characters. So the output on the screen would be all sorts of garbled text).

But anyway, I won't debate this anymore.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 05, 2004, 08:51:11 AM
Early stage life, the primal soup, Amoebas one celled organisms can facilitate their mitosis (the cell divides) every 5 second or less (as long as the needed energy is present) These simple cells usually dont have much junk dna and are as such vulnerable to most forms of radiation and are generally very weak. Thus the risk of mutation is very high and propably occurs at every mitosis.
Now counting that they do this every 5 seconds and that they've had milions upon millions of years that seemingly small percentage is bound to happen more then once. And we cannot forget about the Quantum Probability mechanics making the inconceivable come through, such as the laser beam that can predict the future. (when having two paths this laser will "somehow" always choose the path (during very specific circumstances) leading to another mirror while it should using normal physics either divide (logicly) or atleast make it 50/50) (it's worth to note that i am not sure if it's bogus or not... But they think that it's the same principle as the fact that Kvanta (quantum) cant decide which way they are really spinning until someone observes them.)

Also interesting to note is that if evolution did happen it didn't say poof and there we have a human, amoebas evolve to do something better yet seemingly simple. They evolve to do other things, perhaps a light receptor. And as it continues life will take shape. Sometime during this period normal cells and mitochondria decided to join one another in symbiosis allowing for huge steps within the ladder of life.

Mitochondria really are fascinating because they are not included in either the eggs of a woman or the seed of a man. But joins new life inside the womb, although acting like a virus it is the energy center of all life... This is why among other many clones fail because the mitochondria are not present/able to "infect" the cells. This including that a dna strain from an already old cell has an old set of telomeras which made the seemingly newborn Dolly (the sheep) as old as the original.

blah blah blah blah........
(wanders of into deep thoughts)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Sammyk on August 05, 2004, 04:53:17 PM
Quote


Second, It wasn't a ROCK! Space dust, nebular remains which in turn is either the result of a supernova gone awry or the death of a black hole expulsing all matter.
 
how did that 'space dust' or 'black hole' get there. it didnt just appear out of no where.  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 05, 2004, 06:33:18 PM
A black hole is the result of a heavy sun imploding into itself after running out of its fuel.

The space dust is then thrown out of the black at the end of it's existance.

Space dust, nebulas and other stellar matter also come from unused matter since the bigbang, planets crashing into each other or simply smaller dying stars that will throw layer and layer of itself into space. etc etc...

As for the creation of matter itself we have to look at the bigbang, now what caused the bigbang is largely unknown and i dont have either the brains or the knowledge to answer what there could have been before. Except that the bigbang isn't a new thing as our universe has probably expanded, and then collapsed to then trigger another bigbang. Quantum Physics theory (foam version) speaks of the "universes" as in ovals that i've already mentioned before. (refer to previous posts scattered around the forum)

Now to answer atleast what i can do, as said i dont have an answer for what existed before the very first big bang but once the bigbang occurs resulting in a very big explosion and tremendous amounts of energy which is made out of Quarks, leptons and gluons. When subatomic particles like the many different forms of Quarks plus Gluons and leptons are superheated they join in a Quark-Gluon plasma that lasted for about 0,000001 (just an approximate) seconds after the big bang. (Quark-Gluon plasma has been proven by the RHiC in the US) As Quark-Gluon plasma cools down it forms into bigger structured groups that schools like to call Protons and Neutrons. (This has also been proven by CERN in the US that a Quark-Gluon plasma can indeed create matter by first pulling them apart and then reintegrating, if there ever will be Replicators it will probably be based on pulling matter apart and then recombinging them using a superheated Quark Gluon plasma.)

After the creation of protons and neutrons they will further combine to create the basic structure of all, Hydrogen and Helium. (Also proven by the RHIC in the US)

Now that "matter" has been created, space dust and the later creation of black holes is a fact. Did that answer your question little sammy? ;)

(Ofcourse, you can always blame the scientific community of the US of having a gigantic conspiracy in bond with the devil in order to "harvest" as many souls as possible) or perhaps you'll simply point and laugh that i cant explain what went on before the big bang which is 100% proof that god exists, evolution is false, and that im just a mindless drone trying to suck your brains out...  :heh:
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 05, 2004, 07:29:28 PM
I do not see why people waste their time in this debate about weather God exists or not, it is a debate that has been raging for 2000 years, and you guys think that it can be rectafied in a offtopic forum?

no, human brains are unable to comprehend the etherial state, no matter what we do, we will never understand any of it, it is physically impossible

if you say you do, you eather made it up, or had somone else that made it up brainwash you

this is why I hate talking about this subject, the blaitent ignorence of the people discussing it, they preach about somthing they have no understanding about, I mean for all we know the bible could have been an entertainment novel!!!

We have the ability to think logicly, and to question other peoples and our own thoughts, if there is a God, he gave us that ability, or allowd us to aquire that ability

THAN WHY ARE YOU NOT USING IT?????

people blidly follow the people who preach this, never questioning the trueness of it, never thinking it through and comming up with their own thoughts on the subject

thats the thing that makes religion differ from other things weve been taught, for some reason people just accept it, they dont try to improve it, or change it, they think the same way that people thought back in the dark ages, and that stagnation of human thought discusts me, and it should you

I think religion has taken much too much of a role in peoples lives, for one it serves no purpose, if there is a God in infonate love, infonate compassion, infonate patiance, do you really think he would punish you with the same sentence as he would somone who committed murder? if he does, he does not deserve to be God

another reason I stated above, it is impossible to comprehend, everything people have been arguing about is eathor scientific fact, or pure speculation, you cant base and argument on speculation, no matter how long its been around, or how many people beleave it, it wont hold up to cold hard fact

and the thing about evolution being a random prosses, in the beginning mabe, but after life began evolution became a branched linner process

to go back to my ice age argument, do you really think that the anamals evolved randomly? heck no, if that happoed we would still be wating for a type of anamal to survive it, or evolution happonds in a fairly logical process, the weather gets colder, so the DNA changes so that the hair follicles grow longer thicker hair, or the fat under the skin increases

life evolves to benafit life, no other reason, it changes or it dies, it learns, for DNA it may take hundreds mabe thousands of genarations, each differing from the other by a very small margin, but eventually it gets done

take the garaff for example, for each genaration of garaff the neck lenghens on average 1/4 of an inch, in order for them to reach ever higher leaves

the flounder, both eyes are on one side of its head, yet when it is born its eyes are on both sides of its head, and one of them slowlymigrates to the other side, why would it do that if it was origionally created this way? it has been long known that anamals in their fetal state show the same carictersitics as anamals of lower biologoical complexity

for example human, and in fact every vertabre in the fetal state, wether in an egg or in a utirus, has gill slits

of corse you might say "well what if God wanted them that way?" another speculation, and this time a speculation on the phycoligy of God, wich of corse is impossible

and thus you can see that that argument holds no water, nor does any other argument based on the Bible like I said, it might be fiction, what would stop it from being so?  the only thing that people have linked it to fact was that they have found citys that it described, they say that because it describes those citys that it must be true

well I know of alot of novels that describe modern-day citys in very good detail does that make them true, of corse not, so why would it validate the bible?

this is stuff I have never said before, because normally I dont like confilct, but I am hungry and thus pissed and thus dont give a crap on what anybody else says

this has been my :Betaray: :bump:
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 05, 2004, 10:18:01 PM
Quote
I think religion has taken much too much of a role in peoples lives, for one it serves no purpose, if there is a God in infonate love, infonate compassion, infonate patiance, do you really think he would punish you with the same sentence as he would somone who committed murder? if he does, he does not deserve to be God

let me ask u a question beta, if friend one has an abortion and friend two steals from a blind deaf person, do u think that the punishment is equal?  if not, who did the worse crime? you see w/ God, there is no such thing as a little sin.  stealing to him is the same as killing.  not only that, if you think meditate on either one, it's counted as commiting the sin b/c u didn't commit to it b/c of lack of oppertunity or fear of consequences.  btw beta, my foster parents feel that my relationship w/ God (aka my obsessive religion) is making me waste my teen years.  well, that's a bunch of bannanas!  i put my effort into what i believe and i feel that's better than not practicing what you preach!

Quote
(Ofcourse, you can always blame the scientific community of the US of having a gigantic conspiracy in bond with the devil in order to "harvest" as many souls as possible) or perhaps you'll simply point and laugh that i cant explain what went on before the big bang which is 100% proof that god exists, evolution is false, and that im just a mindless drone trying to suck your brains out... 

everyone should be able to have they're own beliefs.  look at america compared to iraq where you (and your family) could be murdered for talking about christ.  i think americans are trying to hard to find the quick answer to everything (fast food, microwaves, etc, etc) and i feel that is where the idea of evolution came from.  sammyk, u crack me up :heh:  well, how do u think char or diana would do in this conversation (thoses of u that live in portage)?

beta, r u agnostic?  
Quote
I do not see why people waste their time in this debate about weather God exists or not, it is a debate that has been raging for 2000 years, and you guys think that it can be rectafied in a offtopic forum?

yes it has been going on for thousands of years.  but if ur willing to die for what you believe (men and women killing themselves w/ bombs attached to their backs thinking they'll go to heaven if they kill us), then why not have debates about it?  this debate may not prove to eachother wether God exists or not, but it may give some insight to someone who is kinda hanging and needs that little push to get on either side of the fence.  i absolutely hated bio when i took it 2 years ago and yet i kinda uderstood what y'all were talking bout. i believe in creation over evolution and i feel that no one could possibly change my mind. B)  

Quote
people blidly follow the people who preach this, never questioning the trueness of it, never thinking it through and comming up with their own thoughts on the subject

to tell you the truth, i question what even my pastor preaches.  if i don't find it in the bible, i find it not to be true.  and we'll never no who is right untill death.  untill that time, we as humans should have faith in whatever we believe in.  i absolutely hate it when people are half and half.  all or nothin man!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 05, 2004, 10:46:23 PM
Quote
Quote
all I have to say is that faith can speak loud, but faith cannot stand alone.
You are right and wrong in some respects.

True you'd generally get medical help, but in some cases you'll have gotten all the medical help you can and still have problems (eg. cancer) Faith is the only way you're gonna get anything done about it.

for example: I know about plenty of people who have gone thru all the treatments for cancer... The doctor/hospital/whatever says they will probably die soon.
Then they pray about, have faith that it will be cured, and the cancer regresses (cancerous cells die, uncontrolled cell division slows down / stops).

Now don't say that faith in a supreme being (God) can't help you.

 
it isn't the faith, but the strength of will that saves you.  For some, they need the faith to get the strength, for others it is unneccesarry.  my proof: plecebose.  If you are given one and told that it is a proven supliment that can increase your inteligance 10 fold and have no reason to doubt it, you will get smarter.  Several tests have proven that if you know it will hapen, your body will make it happen as long as it is not physically impossible (an example of physically impossible: changing into a different being).

and I will say it, faith in a higher being will not help me, cannot help me, and shall not help me (I know, two are basically the same)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 06, 2004, 10:12:14 PM
Quote
beta, r u agnostic?

no im hungry

hay, if you want to beleave somthing like that, no skin off my back, im consentrating on how to provide humanidy with a better non-polluting power sourse

but if you want to sit about worring about your own ass when you die thats fine with me
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 07, 2004, 10:15:06 AM
so beta, u think that Christ is a polluting power source?  Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good.  For example, we had a german living with us for two weeks (he's coming back to my house on the 10th of this month).  Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long.  they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12.  they don't believe in waiting till ur married and also start drinking beer at 14 and hard liquor at age 16.  Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side?  Don't you think that strong belief in a higher being would help stop sex as young as age 12?  i feel sad that kids younger than me are taught that having sex and drinking are sociable characteristics.

and y do u think that way about a higher being CK9?  have you ever given it a serious try?  i didn't want to either but then i got hooked and He has changed my life forever.  Don't know if you guys no, but i used to smoke and steal cigarrettes and would pass them out at school.  I have changed for the better and I'll share my story (not all of it though b/c it would be like  5 pages long) and if one person may benifit from it, then i fufilled my purpose.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 07, 2004, 11:30:29 AM
I have my own reasons for not careing



because frankly I have better things to do than to go about worring about what happonds to me when I die

one reason I have is, like I said before I think logicly, when we die we just cese to exist, there is no heaven, no hell, we just cese to think

everyone gets that same outcome, no matter how they lived their life on this world

another is a bit more out there, but I still plan for it

I do not plan to die, if need be, I will be frozen in statsis until cyborgnetic nanites have been perfected, at wich time I will be injected and become a cyborge on the nanological scale, every cell in my body will be part living cell, and part nanite, without getting technical, it would mean that it would be virtually impossible to kill me

um, how could a dude who lived 2000 years ago be a powersourse? I was talking about cold fusion!!!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 07, 2004, 01:25:39 PM
Quote
so beta, u think that Christ is a polluting power source?  Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good.  For example, we had a german living with us for two weeks (he's coming back to my house on the 10th of this month).  Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long.  they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12.  they don't believe in waiting till ur married and also start drinking beer at 14 and hard liquor at age 16.  Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side?  Don't you think that strong belief in a higher being would help stop sex as young as age 12?  i feel sad that kids younger than me are taught that having sex and drinking are sociable characteristics.
 
actually, that's more of a sign of bad parenting.  (huh, if my great grandfather didn't come to america between the world wars...)

*shakes thought out of head* (that's against my personaly moral standards (and because of them I'm straightedge :P ))

it is more of a concious choice that the individual makes.  Also, you may want to take into account that that is not everyone there.  Some in that group make a decision not to, you cannot judge the whole on a fragmented knowledge.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 07, 2004, 01:53:28 PM
Quote
Don't know if you guys no, but i used to smoke and steal cigarrettes and would pass them out at school. I have changed for the better and I'll share my story (not all of it though b/c it would be like 5 pages long) and if one person may benifit from it, then i fufilled my purpose.

Sounds to me like you were quite desperate and pulled the first straw that was offered.
People that are more, lets say... Enlightened would never start smoking to begin with as they are aware of the dangers it hold.
Weak...

Quote
Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long. they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12.

Incorrect, while there may be a part of their society that chooses to live that kind of lifestye most are good people and they often have a much better self control of both drinking and "sex".

Quote
Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side?

Not necessarily, as long as someone can control their drinking it often leads to better "social skills". A glass of red wine a day also has many health benefits due to the large amount of both antioxidants and the red color substance protecting against cancer.

Quote
Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good.

For me for example believing in a "god" such as in the Christian church would have absolutely horrible effects. I place everyone equally and is among other a supporter of same sex marriage. Fortunately for the world the people in control such as the congress is more "enlightened" overruling the different wicked proposals that pop-up such as mr bush's marriage amendment. Over here it's been legal for years and this place isn't crumbling to ruins. It's almost funny that Sweden was voted to be one of the 5 best places to live in by an international comittee.

My scientific "obsession" would probably also plummet.
Religious "experiences" can among other be induced by a strong magnetic field placed against a part between the frontal and temporal lobe. Now im not saying that your religious "experiences" are fake or a mind ghost just that the same kind "real" "experiences" can be induced by science to the point that even priests can't tell which one is real or not. Spies in the old days were trained/programmed almost religiously so that they wouldn't reveal any information if captured, kinda like what garrettsgirl exhibits " if i don't find it in the bible, i find it not to be true. " and  "i believe in creation over evolution and i feel that no one could possibly change my mind." Such extreme devotion, fascinating... Al-Qaeda among other also shows such devotion. (no i did not say that you were an extremist just that many religions show the same type of "symptoms")

Even though the questions were directed to the others, i thought i might add some input...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 07, 2004, 02:04:56 PM
camon, me z and ck9 need some better oposistion lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 07, 2004, 09:51:49 PM
beta, don't push it.  If anyone wants to debate religion, PM me, we'll meet on IRC, other than there, I refuse to get into it.  I consider all you guys friends, which is rare for me to do so wiliningly, and I do not wish for something like religion to cause any rifts to form.

And as for the things garrett's Girl brought up, you are gathering incomplete info.  Plym was telling me of a debate on one of those christian youth chats about whether some bands were anti-christian or not, and from what I gathered from our conversation, they were basing it on maby one or two songs that didn't display the band's morals at all (that's actually pretty common (an example (and I know I bring it up often, but I find it a very good band to use as an example) would be AFI.  They are completely straight-edge, believe in 'waiting 'till marrage', ect... but thei song The Nephilim would most likely give a different impression bassed on the lyrics.  It's all in the nature of the music genre)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 08, 2004, 11:36:48 PM
Quote
so beta, u think that Christ is a polluting power source?  Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good.  For example, we had a german living with us for two weeks (he's coming back to my house on the 10th of this month).  Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long.  they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12.  they don't believe in waiting till ur married and also start drinking beer at 14 and hard liquor at age 16.  Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side?  Don't you think that strong belief in a higher being would help stop sex as young as age 12?  i feel sad that kids younger than me are taught that having sex and drinking are sociable characteristics.

and y do u think that way about a higher being CK9?  have you ever given it a serious try?  i didn't want to either but then i got hooked and He has changed my life forever.  Don't know if you guys no, but i used to smoke and steal cigarrettes and would pass them out at school.  I have changed for the better and I'll share my story (not all of it though b/c it would be like  5 pages long) and if one person may benifit from it, then i fufilled my purpose.
GarrettsGirl, I live in Germany. They are not provided with condoms (unless by their parents or friends), it's not as though the government is going around passing out condoms. Birth control can be gotten at an early age even here. There is no drinking age here, but it's not like back in the states, because they can drink here, they don't as much at that age. It isn't like in the states where your not supposed to, so you want to. People are haing sex at early ages in the states (I have close friends that lost their virginity before the age of 12). Kids are not being taught to have sex here, it is just something they do.

But just because I'm correcting that doesn't mean that I don't side with you on your religious beliefs. Ask yourself, what was before the universe? When did time begin? Before the universe was there nothing? If so, what was before that? Time couldn't just begin, there has always been somthing out there. It is impossible to go to the begining of time, because what was before it. God has always been, just like time. There was no before God just like there was no before time.

I believe in God and go every Sunday to church to praise him. I sing in the praise team, I get the sound system set properly, on Thursday's I help out with the meals for single and TDY (it's a military thing, basically they're away from their regular base and are temporarily here) because sometimes they don't have friends or family here and that gives them a chance to get some good home cooking and to meet and talk with people.

If there is no God and we are all here just by chance, then He is still doing good. Just believing in him and living a Christian life has helped many people by helping the community, having something to look forward to after death, and having a common ground with many people that you don't even know (which is one big way you can get to know good people).
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 09, 2004, 06:50:46 AM
In a way time is a human thing because "time" is a relative matter.
As seen from the atomic clock sent into space, gravity or rather gravitons affect time although very little. In something very heavy like the event horizon of a black hole "time" almost stands still, or that is atleast what the current theory states.

--------------

Now that "god" has been diminished into two basic principles that he is A; supernatural "
And, if someone/something is supernatural, do they have to follow laws of physics? No, because they don't exist as any matter or detectable energy." and B; That he/she/it is a being outside space/time it is not debatable anylonger as science to even begin with classifies something "supernatural" as nonexistant or impossible.

So far any attempts made by the people on this forum to either A: disprove evolution or B: Scientificly prove god has proven to be either "stupidities" or lies (example: the second law)

As garretsgirl likes to say it is now up to "faith" to decide if either to believe in the world ruled by science (aka laws) or the supernatural which has so far proven to have no real connection with either the physical world or science.

While it is true that one cant even speculate what might have been before the first bigbang science accepts it as a mystery while religion fills the gap with "god" based on a 2000 year old "legacy" that had its first scriptures written over 70 years after "jesus" originally died at year zero.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 09, 2004, 07:20:26 AM
As I said before, if God left proof that he existed, then we wouldn't have faith, we'd just be following what we knew existed. God wants people to believe in him and have faith that he exists, he doesn't want you to follow him because you have to.

Do you have even one piece of edvidence that proves he doesn't exist?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 09, 2004, 07:45:44 AM
Quote
Do you have even one piece of evidence that proves he doesn't exist?
I have never once said on this forum that he/she/it doesn't "exist" (and no, bringing up the post where i said i was an atheist wont do) what i have done however is defend science when you try to make science look empty by either bringing up lies like the second law, in order to disprove evolution or try to make the creation of a habitable planet look impossible.

Religion is religion, science is science. Religion should not and does not have any connection with science, the creation of planet or evolution or even the big bang as basicly all astronomical data gathered points to it. With hubble and some basic knowledge you can literally see the result of a "big bang"

The question is irrelevant because how to even begin with do you gather evidence to prove that something supernatural with either no mass nor energy does not exist that by previous said terms do not exist in any tangible form.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 09, 2004, 11:28:11 AM
Quote
As I said before, if God left proof that he existed, then we wouldn't have faith, we'd just be following what we knew existed. God wants people to believe in him and have faith that he exists, he doesn't want you to follow him because you have to.
 
this has been brought up before, and I will answer it the same way:

just because it is fact dosen't mean it has to be followed/worshiped.  A bad comparrison, but IMHO a good example of this is WW2.  It was a fact that Hitler was taking over country after country and had the support of thousands(possibly millions, but my numbers are a bit inaccurate there), but just because he was the leader doesn't mean everyone followed him.  There were many germans who only fought for him to prevent being murdered by him, even then some would porpusly miss their intended targets.  Also, when the french government surrendered to the nazis, there were still hundreds of french soldiers who refused to follow the intentions of those in power and continued fighting against them.

like I said, bad comparison, lol


(BTW, Zues, I was told by a German foreign exchange student that it is illegal to own a book on Hitler there.  Is that true in all parts of Germany?)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 09, 2004, 01:21:29 PM
well, my takes on Germany are only from the Germans that i no.  We having one living w/ us (tommorrow) and i only no about Germany w/ what he told me.  i didn't mean to offend any Germans and probably could've been a little less judgemental.  Sry.  well, z, you never cease to suprise me!  Well, i'd have to say the same for CK9 too.  well, this chat about religion has come far and i enjoy every minute of it.   B)  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 09, 2004, 05:13:00 PM
Please no arguments about the trinity, went through another one of those last night on a yahoo chat room and got rather frusterated as I left my notes at my church with my bible.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 09, 2004, 05:14:35 PM
I am amazing?  wow
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 09, 2004, 09:50:53 PM
well, you and z always have something to say.  (too bad it's not always what i wanna hear).  lol :heh:  one of my friends stuck her head over my shoulder when i was reading the posts and she told me to tell z to shut up.  lol.  he's very knoweledgeable though.   B)

plym, that must've stunk w/o having ur bible.  i practically need to read my bible everyday.  lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 09, 2004, 10:06:08 PM
Tell her I say she should be nice to z, he is indeed a very knowing person, and very kind, we could all learn something from Z...and no, I'm not brown noseing, I'm stating my honest opinion, so stop it with the gesture
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 10, 2004, 12:15:12 AM
Quote
(BTW, Zues, I was told by a German foreign exchange student that it is illegal to own a book on Hitler there.  Is that true in all parts of Germany?)
I know that it is illegal to where any clothing with the nazi symbol on it (I don't know how to spell it and dictionary.com was no help). The German's are try to keep their image away from the Nazi's. They don't want to be associated with them. I haven't heard anything about book's about Nazi's or Hitler, but with how they are about everything else, I wouldn't doubt it at all.

And yes be nice to Zircon, even though he may have different views, he is still one of God's children and we should all love him for it.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 10, 2004, 06:06:41 AM
(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/other/newbluesweatdrop.gif) I feel so loved  :wub:  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 10, 2004, 12:39:03 PM
it is spelt swastica, I believe (I read a lot of books of many genres)

quick question to Zircon:  why'd you remove that cool pic you had as a sig?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 10, 2004, 04:48:18 PM
and I see that I have not been brought up in any of this

thus I am not one of God's children

swwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttttttttttttttttt
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 10, 2004, 05:23:53 PM
Quote
quick question to Zircon:  why'd you remove that cool pic you had as a sig?
A bit offtopic but im guessing you're referring to the one i used to have at the outpost congregation with the glowing crystal on one side and the wolfy on the other.

Basicly because it's old, i dont like it and my current avatar sucks enough bandwidth (modem users) as it is...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 10, 2004, 10:06:56 PM
Quote
I'm stating my honest opinion, so stop it with the gesture
 was that directed at my laughing smiley or what?  

actually, it says in the bible that you become a child of God untill you believe and recieve Christ.  don't no how u guys relationships w/ Christ are so i can't tell you if u truely are or not.  it also says he gave us the right to become his children but we have to do our part.

hey beta.  how r u?  and z, i respect ne and all of your and CK9's expainations.  i think it's great you two no so much stuff that i'll never understand.  i'm not brown noseing either...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: gpgarrettboast on August 10, 2004, 10:08:50 PM
Quote
Religion is religion, science is science. Religion should not and does not have any connection with science, the creation of planet or evolution or even the big bang as basicly all astronomical data gathered points to it. With hubble and some basic knowledge you can literally see the result of a "big bang"
 
There is alot of science/mathmatics that shows some intelligence behind the creation of the universe. Look at the fibonacci equation and all of the places it occurs in nature.  There are many more, but I'm not very potent in this area.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 11, 2004, 12:17:29 AM
nobody cares about the mad scientist  :(

gooooooooooooooooood they will never suspect a thing <_<  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 11, 2004, 04:10:18 AM
Quote
There is alot of science/mathmatics that shows some intelligence behind the creation of the universe. Look at the fibonacci equation and all of the places it occurs in nature.  There are many more, but I'm not very potent in this area.
Yes, the equation can among other in simple terms be used to describe the breeding of a rabbit or the branching of a tree. By using the golden ratio you can also calculate the number of sections in a sea shell.
It is also one of the golden laws in the evolution theory describing part of why the cells act like they do. As such the scientific community view it partly as a holy grail in unraveling the secrets of evolution.

It is one of the fractal patterns (although quite linear in a sense they lead to many "unexpected" results) i mentioned earlier.

Now for the question, How in Earths name did you manage to turn one of the things describing evolutionary branching into something supporting the Creation you believe in?!?! 0.o *stares at gpgarret*

(as usual there is no strange supernatural force giving "life" a push, while i see where you're pointing by thinking cells or plants are controlled by some kind of rudimentary "intelligence" or alghoritm it has very natural explanations. If thinking like that we could question ourselves why life would want to "live" to even begin with, the answer to that is that life has no will to live and not live, it is a chemical process governed by the laws in this world and nothing more, nothing less. It is as rudimentary as hydrogen binding) (and no with that i don't mean that for example animals dont want to live just that the basic "stones" dont care wether they live or not in a way (i am aware of the fact that their goal is selfpreservation but im guessing by now that you get my meaning))
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on August 11, 2004, 05:27:44 AM
Quote
so beta, u think that Christ is a polluting power source? Don't you think that not believeing in Christ could do you more harm than good. For example, we had a german living with us for two weeks (he's coming back to my house on the 10th of this month). Well, in Germany a lot of people are athiests and believe in partying all night long. they are provided w/ condoms and birth control at age 14 and some start at even age 12. they don't believe in waiting till ur married and also start drinking beer at 14 and hard liquor at age 16. Now, don't you think that livestyle is on the dangerous side? Don't you think that strong belief in a higher being would help stop sex as young as age 12? i feel sad that kids younger than me are taught that having sex and drinking are sociable characteristics.

lol then Hungary is a problem area too... Beer, Wine, Sex at 14... Tequila, Gin, Martini, Vodka, etc. 16...

I believe in god. Me and my parents go to the church every month. (dunno why but this area of Hungary only goes once a month)
 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 11, 2004, 10:06:30 AM
Quote
Quote
I'm stating my honest opinion, so stop it with the gesture
 was that directed at my laughing smiley or what?  


hey beta.  how r u?  and z, i respect ne and all of your and CK9's expainations.  i think it's great you two no so much stuff that i'll never understand.  i'm not brown noseing either...
no, I was refering to the gesture that some some people make to say someone is brown nosing (they make a fist, put the base of the thumb to their nose, and turn it back and forth like they were chalking up a que)



lol, someone thinks I know non-trivial stuff.  Actually, I'm not too dumb, I did do well in AP chem, and pre calc (that one drove me nuts, the first math class I got a B as my final grade in).  Unfortunately, a lot of my "knowledge" is composed of mythology and trivial information (such as the origon of flipping someone off (that one is my fav.)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 11, 2004, 11:22:04 PM
I heard that one (the flipping off one) and why it's called giving someone the bird. Anyways, aren't we kinda getting of topic here?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 11, 2004, 11:44:33 PM
if we can justify it to the topic, it isn't off topic, is it?

where is the discussion of the topic at?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 11, 2004, 11:55:23 PM
Talking about the source of flipping off, how well one did in pre-calc...those kinda things. :)

Nevermind, I was just being an @$$....so CK9 and Zircon, does any of your family believe in God?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 12, 2004, 04:20:22 AM
Quote
Nevermind, I was just being an @$$....so CK9 and Zircon, does any of your family believe in God?
Being a "little" religious over here isn't very unusual. (not usual either, in my class we had 31 students. One of them was religious... but then again he was known as the oddball in the class...)
But being a full fledged one (as in going to church) you either have to be a nutty (nothing mean meant, just that the church attracts the mentally disturbed portion of the country, no joke.) (http://www.bonetweb.com/Zircon/smilies/crazy.gif) or have parents that are very religious, but even then the people with the religious parents tend to slowly drift away from it...

So except for my really old grandmother that has a little tiny hope for heaven because she is as said very old there's no religion in either my family or entire family tree (atleast those that are living)

Note: This is merely my views, i cannot say that this is true for all Swedes, saibot for example might have a very different view of things (or not)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Oprime on August 12, 2004, 08:55:32 AM
Quote
While it is true that one cant even speculate what might have been before the first bigbang science accepts it as a mystery while religion fills the gap with "god" based on a 2000 year old "legacy" that had its first scriptures written over 70 years after "jesus" originally died at year zero.

Those books where mostly from notes and knowledge of jesus's words. The bible is made of A LOT of books mainly (forgot number atm :P). These books go way back not just 70 years after jesus died, maybe 2000+ years with Islam being a further addition of the bible (tenents are muslim and told me of their religion).

Zircon you have to be a little bit more open minded when it comes to religions, because, hebrew, judaism, christianity, and islam are all based on 1 religion. For example Jesus was a jew and most likely still is. Another example for how OLD these religions are is when Moses freed the hebrew people from the Egyptians. That was THOUSANDS of years before Jesus made his apperance.

hmm, isn't that religion called "kabbalah" even older then the hebrew religion?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on August 12, 2004, 09:52:46 AM
Anyway Hungary is a very religious country. 63% of the adults believe in god  22% semi-believers (i dunno how lol). And of course every town (even the smallest lol! population: 8) has at least one church.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 12, 2004, 09:59:07 AM
Quote
Those books where mostly from notes and knowledge of jesus's words. The bible is made of A LOT of books mainly (forgot number atm :P). These books go way back not just 70 years after jesus died, maybe 2000+ years with Islam being a further addition of the bible (tenents are muslim and told me of their religion).

Zircon you have to be a little bit more open minded when it comes to religions, because, hebrew, judaism, christianity, and islam are all based on 1 religion. For example Jesus was a jew and most likely still is. Another example for how OLD these religions are is when Moses freed the hebrew people from the Egyptians. That was THOUSANDS of years before Jesus made his apperance.

hmm, isn't that religion called "kabbalah" even older then the hebrew religion?
I stand corrected  ^_^

I did know that "hebrew, judaism, christianity, and islam are all based on 1 religion" which just adds to the "soup" with people saying "My religion is correct" "No mine is" "yadda" etc...

My goal isn't to "bash" or even try to prove that "god" doesn't exist, my goal is to shatter the rather mindless "proofs" religious people bring up in order to falsify for example evolution. The fibonacci equation gpgarret brought up is a mathematical equation twisted into something it really isn't... That is unless the "creator" created evolution but which gpgarret somehow tried to counteract with mathematics pointing toward evolution which was... reversed psychology or a backfiring plan?  :blink:
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 12, 2004, 10:45:22 AM
Quote
Nevermind, I was just being an @$$....so CK9 and Zircon, does any of your family believe in God?
I beleive my parents do, my sister has flat out told them that she doesn't, and I let my parents beleive what they want to.  They will know all I haven't told themabout myself as soon as they cannot send me to a shrink (I was threatend with it once because I am a-social, what do you think would happen if I told them I was a dragon in a past life and that I do not believe in a god?)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Oprime on August 12, 2004, 11:00:26 AM
:huh: I was only saying that to show you how closed minded you where. Anyway from time to time the religion is "upgraded" it's really all the same religion just  that stuff gets added to help people understand what they are reading better. Plus, the bible is interprated differently every time somebody reads it. That is 1 of the resones that catholic preists spend like 15 years of bible study to more greatly understand it even then they continue studing until they die.

I'm catholic and believe that Jesus was teaching people to love each other even if they did something horriable. That could be interprated by somebody else as stupid so they change to an older version where they didn't have to forgive all the time. In concusion it's all up to how a person interprets the bible. When people fight over which version they like more they're just hard headed people that want all others to follow their view of things. That's way I'm telling you to be a little bit more open minded and see where these people are coming from. Every person on the planet has a different way of thinking.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 12, 2004, 11:38:21 AM
Quote
:huh: I was only saying that to show you how closed minded you where.
Being open minded has to do with accepting/tolerating the views of other persons.
I don't have to "believe" in for example christianity in order to be openminded just tolerate and accept it.

(tolerate sounds rather "hostile" i wonder if there's a better word... hmm...)

While my lack of knowledge and misjudgement of age in christianity i don't think im "that" closed minded (strange word) when correcting people...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Oprime on August 12, 2004, 11:41:53 AM
*smacks his head*
OK... here's an example of how closed minded you are... you said

Quote
While it is true that one cant even speculate what might have been before the first bigbang science accepts it as a mystery while religion fills the gap with "god" based on a 2000 year old "legacy" that had its first scriptures written over 70 years after "jesus" originally died at year zero.

I "corrected" you by saying that the bible is isn't only a book at was written in 70 years. You responded

Quote
The fibonacci equation gpgarret brought up is a mathematical equation twisted into something it really isn't... That is unless the "creator" created evolution but which gpgarret somehow tried to counteract with mathematics pointing toward evolution which was... reversed psychology or a backfiring plan? 

You think diffently then gpgarret so you tried to correct him with your way of thinking. Give an example to show us how it works so we can more greatly understand not just say no your wrong.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 12, 2004, 12:39:19 PM
hmm, ok... (http://www.bonetweb.com/Zircon/smilies/sorry.gif)

In very easy terms the fibonacci equation works by as the sum of two previous numbers 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34 <--- example...

It can be used for several different things, for example you can generate a Closed-form by using the equation. I've never been good at maths so i fail to understand the math behind it, just the "verbal" part of it so to say. So posting an equation of it would just be a waste because it's literally a bunch of strange letters.

(http://www.bonetweb.com/Zircon/lev/FN-CP-bounds.gif)
Now for any smart<beep> before i continue these are not what i call strange letters as it is a simple Polynom...

As mentioned before the equation can be used to for example describe the branching of a tree. One branch exiting from another will lead to another branch. The same goes for flower stalks etc pretty much any plant. What gpgarret probably meaned was that because plants follow this pattern "god" must have programmed the plants to follow that specific type of pattern.

But the fibonacci equation isn't only interesting to biologists but also play a role in "evolution" (where the more difficult maths come) and how for example animals grow. As for actually calculating evolutionary steps consisting of lots of maths which the fibonacci numbers are used in (and which you want an example of) i cant  because i simply dont know them. As such i cant prove exactly how the fibonacci equation is used in the evolution theory and as such im just a another mindless fool believing what scientists type without actually being able to check it for myself.

What i can tell you is that if the scientists aren't playing a prank upon the world it is used often in "evolution" (empty word as i cannot clarify it further) and in something called "Population Genetics" where they trace genetic changes through animals and people.

A gene can have several dna sequences of the same type called "alleles" by comparing "alleles" in different populations you can trace changes through time (small and big) these changes are what they like to call Evolution.

If we name two Alleles A and B, A+B would be 1 or rather 100% thus no change, comparing 3 alleles ABC would become A + B + C = 1/100%. By increasing the number of alleles compared the test becomes more accurate.

So basicly by comparing different Alleles from different people or races one can follow drastic or small changes in the genes through time. One of the troubles though is to actually get living genetic material from older specimens. Signatures can often be found but as they are dried out and probably has had their accuracy diminished this theory isn't "solid" proof that Evolution occured. A mediocre example is horses and donkeys, while they can be bred and have infertile offspring certain Alleles match and that the changes match the projected ones showing that the forefather of a horse evolved into both a horse and donkey. But as usual you can simply point out that god might have decided to use the same "framework" making the two animals oddly like each other.

The same goes for humans and the australian aborgines. In that case however the future will eventually point out wether they are evolving or not by following the changes in the alleles. (that will however take a long long time)

A living but small proof of it is the banana fly, by having two colonies and altering their "habitat" they made so that in one colony some of the nutritional packets they needed were poisoned. This colony effectively after a couple of generations grew a bigger or more evolved brain capable of understanding that when a lot of the flies died they stayed away from it and then teached their offspring the same thing.
However the bigger brain as such required more nutritional value decreasing the size of the colony. The untouched colony lived in harmony swarming the place. They proceeded to lower the amount of oxygen and food in the second colony making so that they both had to grow bigger efficient lungs and increase their effective lifespan so that the colony could survive. When the alleles were compared they had the same basic parts  but numerous other changes. Now for the surprising part, when the two colonies were mixed they didn't mate and had such vast differences in their genes that they weren't compatible anylonger. Succesfully "evolving".
As usual it is worth to note however that this is weak evidence because their intolerance to each other might just have either been a forced change by the toxins.

To finish off, i cant show you real "proof" of what im talking about but to sum things up.

The fibonacci equation is often used in evolutionary science and unless "god" also made Evolution (or atleast something like it) gpgarret made a backfiring post as it rather points to "evolution" and not against it.

Does that suffice?
I feel i might have missed something...

(Edited a couple of spelling errors)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 12, 2004, 08:45:10 PM
Quote
hmm, ok...
In very easy terms the fibonacci equation works by as the sum of two previous numbers 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34
reminds me a little of Pascal's Triangle
(just imagine all the periods aren't there, it's the only way it will stay in position)

..........1
........1..1
......1..2...1
....1..3...3...1
..1..4...6...4..1
1...5.10.10.5...1

going on by the formula:



 /.n.\...........n!........../.n-1.\......./.n-1.\
|......|..=..---------.=.|........|..+..|........|
 \.r../.........(n-r)!r!....\...r.../.......\.r-1./


EDIT: just found an image that shows why it reminds me of it:

(http://mathworld.wolfram.com/p1img1508.gif)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 12, 2004, 11:30:39 PM
No amount of science or math can disprove anything about God. God is not matter, he is nothing solid or gas or liquid, so by science he can't exist. But God is much more, people tend to try to disprove him using math equation's and scientific theories, but what you have to understand is that God is not like anything on this Earth, so no amount of science or math will ever be able to disprove him because they are all based on Earthly things.

Now, to prove that the big bang theory is correct you'd have to be there back when it happened. Scientists say that the universe is expanding, but how do they know that? They are basing anything they come up with, with stuff they know to be true on Earth. What they are seeing may not be the universe expanding at all. Unless someone gets in a spaceship and flies all the way to the outter edge of the universe, then you'll never be able to fully prove it. There is no solid proof that science is right and religion is wrong because you have to look outside the box and realize that things are different in different parts of the universe so equation's that make since here may be totally wrong out there in the far reaches of space.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 13, 2004, 12:13:20 AM
like I said before, God is somthing that human brains just canot comprehend, its the same thing with death

so there is no use trying to prove, or disprove somthing that is impossible to even begin to comprehend
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 13, 2004, 01:10:25 AM
I agree that we cannot comprehend all that God is. The only thing that we can comprehend is the word that he spread. The love that he showed man by sacrificing his own son for us, how could we ever comprehend sacrifcing our own child to help out other's.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 13, 2004, 04:43:29 AM
Quote
No amount of science or math can disprove anything about God. God is not matter, he is nothing solid or gas or liquid, so by science he can't exist. But God is much more, people tend to try to disprove him using math equation's and scientific theories, but what you have to understand is that God is not like anything on this Earth, so no amount of science or math will ever be able to disprove him because they are all based on Earthly things.
Isn't this exactly what i've been saying? That science and religion should be treated as two different things.

Quote
Now, to prove that the big bang theory is correct you'd have to be there back when it happened. Scientists say that the universe is expanding, but how do they know that? They are basing anything they come up with, with stuff they know to be true on Earth. What they are seeing may not be the universe expanding at all. Unless someone gets in a spaceship and flies all the way to the outter edge of the universe, then you'll never be able to fully prove it. There is no solid proof that science is right and religion is wrong because you have to look outside the box and realize that things are different in different parts of the universe so equation's that make since here may be totally wrong out there in the far reaches of space.

That's where you're very wrong, this entire universe is based on the same laws. While for example strong gravitational forces like a black hole can "bend" these rules they apply wherever in this universe you look.

You would have to travel to another universe in order to change the basic laws.

Now for your proof, they have this really big magnifier called a telescope. The telescope in space called Hubble that among other has a (had it broke) red wave spectrometer can pierce the normal parts and see deeper into the universe.

As for proving that the natural laws apply everywhere they simply have to look and compare, the amount of background radiation is the same (not around a black hole) planets are in the same steps of "evolution". Light bends the same way. etc, if something were different they'd see it. Stellar orbits for example are the same everywhere. You dont need to actually travel somewhere when it comes to this, that would probably even make it harder because then you would be in a chaos unable to sort what is what. If you're going to work on something in your math book you dont rip every page out and nicely put them spreading outward on the floor.

How do they know that the universe is expanding, well know that we've said that the laws are the same in the entire universe the "proof" is as follows

1. Olbers' Paradox

Why isn't the night sky as uniformly bright as the surface of the Sun?  If the Universe has infinitely many stars, then it should be.  After all, if you move the Sun twice as far away from us, we will intercept one quarter as many photons, but the Sun will subtend one quarter of the angular area.  So the areal intensity remains constant.  With infinitely many stars, every angular element of the sky should have a star, and the entire heavens should be as bright as the sun.  We should have the impression that we live in the center of a hollow black body whose temperature is about 6000 degrees Celsius.  This is Olbers' paradox.  It can be traced as far back as Kepler in 1610, and was rediscussed by Halley and Cheseaux in the eighteen century; but it was not popularized as a paradox until Olbers took up the issue in the nineteenth century.

There are many possible explanations which have been considered.  Here are a few:

   1. There's too much dust to see the distant stars.
   2. The Universe has only a finite number of stars.
   3. The distribution of stars is not uniform.  So, for example, there could be an infinity of stars,
      but they hide behind one another so that only a finite angular area is subtended by them.
   4. The Universe is expanding, so distant stars are red-shifted into obscurity.
   5. The Universe is young.  Distant light hasn't even reached us yet.

The first explanation is just plain wrong.  In a black body, the dust will heat up too.  It does act like a radiation shield, exponentially damping the distant starlight.  But you can't put enough dust into the universe to get rid of enough starlight without also obscuring our own Sun.  So this idea is bad.

The premise of the second explanation may technically be correct.  But the number of stars, finite as it might be, is still large enough to light up the entire sky, i.e., the total amount of luminous matter in the Universe is too large to allow this escape.  The number of stars is close enough to infinite for the purpose of lighting up the sky.  The third explanation might be partially correct.  We just don't know.  If the stars are distributed fractally, then there could be large patches of empty space, and the sky could appear dark except in small areas.

But the final two possibilities are surely each correct and partly responsible.  There are numerical arguments that suggest that the effect of the finite age of the Universe is the larger effect.  We live inside a spherical shell of "Observable Universe" which has radius equal to the lifetime of the Universe.  Objects more than about 13.7 thousand million years old (the latest figure) are too far away for their light ever to reach us.

Historically, after Hubble discovered that the Universe was expanding, but before the Big Bang was firmly established by the discovery of the cosmic background radiation, Olbers' paradox was presented as proof of special relativity.  You needed the red shift (an SR effect) to get rid of the starlight.  This effect certainly contributes.  But the finite age of the Universe is the most important effect.

2. The hubble law describing linear distance compared to the laws of red shift show distance and length of the universe showing that it is expanding.
Hubble law (http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo_01.htm)
Redshift (http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/doppler.htm)

We know that both the hubble law and redshift is facts instead of theories and you can check them for yourself so there isn't really any question about this "proof"

3. Timedilation, it only acts to ensure the above mentioned facts.
Excerpt from a 27 page long report...
R-band intensity measurements along the light curve of Type Ia supernovae discovered by the Supernova Cosmology Project (SCP) are fitted in brightness to templates allowing a free parameter the time-axis width factor w = s(1+z). The data points are then individually aligned in the time-axis, normalized and K-corrected back to the rest frame, after which the nearly 1300 normalized intensity measurements are found to lie on a well-determined common rest-frame B-band curve which we call the ``composite curve''. The same procedure is applied to 18 low-redshift Calan/Tololo SNe with z < 0.11; these nearly 300 B-band photometry points are found to lie on the composite curve equally well. The SCP search technique produces several measurements before maximum light for each supernova. We demonstrate that the linear stretch factor, s, which parameterizes the light-curve timescale appears independent of z,and applies equally well to the declining and rising parts of the light curve. In fact, the B-band template that best fits this composite curve fits the individual supernova photometry data when stretched by a factor s with chi^2/DoF approx = 1, thus as well as any parameterization can, given the current data sets. The measurement of the date of explosion, however, is model dependent and not tightly constrained by the current data.
We also demonstrate the 1+z light-curve time-axis broadening expected from cosmological expansion. This argues strongly against alternative explanations, such as tired light, for the redshift of distant objects.

Basicly what he describes is that with distance light redshifts and slows down making so that a supernova which could take 20 days to finish is observed as 40 days from earth.
This timedilation works as a measurement for the length of the universe and it increases.

4. Radio source and quasar counts vs. flux. I am however not versed in this theory/fact and need to read up on it.


5. CMB: Cosmic Microwave Background radiation, also CMBR, CBR and the "3 K blackbody radiation". Radiation left over from the hot Big Bang which has cooled by expansion to a temperature slightly less than 3 degrees above absolute zero. This shows that the Universe has evolved from a dense, isothermal state.
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html (http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html)

6. A variation in the TCMB with redshift. This is a direct observation of the evolution of the Universe. Feel free to read up on it... (http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/stdystat.htm)

There's more but i dont know everything. So just cut the crap because some things are facts and some are not, while you can feel free to criticise theory's such as evolution dont step on things proven and seen because there cannot be an exception to the laws and observations made by for example hubble shows it. Would you doubt your own eyes?

The only possible error would be to have a couple of aliens manipulating the data hubble sends, which by my standards are rather farfetched.

I'd advise you to read some books, and no not religious ones.

People criticise me that i'm closed minded and think differently (strange) and can't always bring up proof but have you ever looked at yourself and how utterly <beep> you are simply letting such things exit your mouth.

And now im so closed minded because i look at this from my perspective, well in this case it isn't my view, it is how it is (http://www.bonetweb.com/Zircon/smilies/swear.gif)
How about bringing something up that could counter this or prove that the natural laws aren't the same everywhere instead of just, "ooh your pretty numbers mean nothing as you haven't been there in a space ship"
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 13, 2004, 04:55:12 AM
Wow it took you all of that to prove nothing. Again, they only theorize. You call them see the same stuff out there proof that the rules are the same everywhere, then you are just plain dumb. Just because we can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there (like the wind). You are basing your theories off of someone else's theories that were based off of someone else's theories. There is no true way to prove it's true. If we colonize all planet's in the universe but one, that one could be different, no matter how much you look at it with a telescope and theorize about it, you just don't know till you go there.

It does truely amaze me how stupid you are to think the theories are proof. All the scientist's in the world could say that this theory is true, but they are just theories. Everyone used to think the earth was flat, the earth was the center of the universe, etc.

You can look at at the stars and galaxies with a telescope all you want and try to compare them to how things are here on this planet, but until you go there you won't know. There could be more element's than the one's on the element chart, there could be different gravity pull's besides just around a black hole.


EDIT: Oh, and you are showing more and more how closed minded you are.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 13, 2004, 05:06:00 AM
*sigh* So if a spectrometer placed on a telescope shows that a planet has oxygen would you care to explain how it could not have oxygen if you were to for example visit it?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 13, 2004, 11:07:03 AM
Quote
No amount of science or math can disprove anything about God. God is not matter, he is nothing solid or gas or liquid, so by science he can't exist.
 

you forgot one state of matter, plasma.  It is a true state of matter that is not solid, liquid, nor gas.  It is present around floresent lights.  (I learned about it from this one guy who seemedrealy dumb at first, but was actually the first smart person that I ran into who prefered sports.  Then it was confirmed by the science teacher when he did a presentation on it before we were going to learn about it, lol)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 13, 2004, 06:54:00 PM
yes, there is plasma, and that is also one of the main parts of the Fusion Reactors they are trying to create, the need stable Plasma in order to achieve nuclear Fusion. That is the way the sun works, taking hydrogen and turning it into helium through fusion which is done by means of plasma. Something like that anyway.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on August 13, 2004, 07:06:14 PM
lol they NEED stable plasma...
Anyway if there is God he/she/it (anyway lol) is plasma...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 13, 2004, 08:15:05 PM
lol, got any facts that lead to that conclusion?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on August 13, 2004, 08:34:56 PM
well if i know one thing for sure that we cant see him... n e way if God exists and not liquid/gas/solid, only plasma the only one left. or there is a Godly state?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 13, 2004, 11:10:16 PM
why are you asking me of all people?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 14, 2004, 04:20:46 AM
Interesting but irritating (damn politicians) subject, the blueprints for the ITER (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor) which would be the first "functional" fusion reactor is finished but now politicians are arguing on where to build it.

For more then a year  -_-

The US, the European Union, China, Japan and South Korea are to be involved in the project and they have concluded that there are only 2 "safe" locations to build it on.

1: The French city of Cadarache that already has the infrastructure finished as they have experimented with it before, the place is also nice to live in.

2: The Japanese town of Rokkashomur, while it has no infrastructure and is very desolate it is at the sea so that large boats can bring needed materials over the sea.
While being desolate can be both a bad and good thing because in the event of an emergency the general population wont suffer. But being desolate it means that many dont want to work there.

Fusion technology has also proven to be rather harmless, while the reactor (in worst case scenario) can fail/blow up there wont be any radioactive dust or large meltdown compared to a fission reactor.
(no this doesn't mean that fusion bombs aren't as dangerous as normal fission based ones)

The main problem with fusion technology as of today is that once the reaction is started (or atleast being near the ignition point) the magnetic field containing the plasma eventually fails. When the "plasma" has violent outbursts the magnetic field needs to correct itself in order to compensate which it doesn't do fast enough.

Interesting Note: Scientists like to call fusion reactors Tokamaks  :op2:
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on August 14, 2004, 10:20:05 AM
Zircon: let them build it in france, if it blows up, nothing is lost lol...
Tokamaks? lol... then one thing they have to repair it often...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 14, 2004, 02:47:41 PM
Quote
Zircon: let them build it in france, if it blows up, nothing is lost lol...
 
YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!!!!!!!

France is one of the few places where you can still find towns that are as they were in the medieval time period.  There are also hundreds of beautiful and fasinating historic structures (such as Notre Dame (again, I suck at spelling), The Palace of Versais, the hall of mirrors, the towns I mentioned before, as well as the many castles that have been there for well over a hundred years.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on August 14, 2004, 03:15:23 PM
Quote
YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!!!!!!!
Then move those or something, french are no-good.... they are the reason why Hungary only now 66% of its original size. those also taken our only little seaside...
:(
Oh anyway if you say so build in Japan, blow it up and technology's evlution stops lol...

EDIT: we have real medieval castle (ruins lol) too
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 14, 2004, 03:18:56 PM
actually, you are mistaken.  It happened during the Treaty of Versialls (there's the spelling!) I believe, which had very little French influence during it's drafting
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on August 14, 2004, 03:25:03 PM
then why we signed the treaty of trianon (trianon's treaty if my translation is correct) in Paris?
and why did us, hungarians destroyed anything that reminds...anyway id even go back in time and blow the whole place to smitherines (tell me if im misspelling!)...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 14, 2004, 08:33:11 PM
lol, checkmate
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 14, 2004, 11:29:25 PM
Well, Z, i've found something that might interest you(everyone else as well).  You asked for someone to use science to prove something.  Well, here goes:

A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD

The existence of God is a subject that has occupied schools of philosophy and theology for thousands of years. Most of the time, these debates have revolved around all kinds of assumptions and definitions. Philosophers will spend a lifetime arguing about the meaning of a word and never really get there. One is reminded of the college student who was asked how his philosophy class was going. He replied that they had not done much because when the teacher tried to call roll, the kids kept arguing about whether they existed or not.

Most of us who live and work in the real world do not concern ourselves with such activities. We realize that such discussions may have value and interest in the academic world, but the stress and pressure of day-to-day life forces us to deal with a very pragmatic way of making decisions. If I ask you to prove to me that you have $2.00, you would show it to me. Even in more abstract things we use common sense and practical reasoning. If I ask you whether a certain person is honest or not, you do not flood the air with dissertations on the relative nature of honesty; you would give me evidence one way or the other. The techniques of much of the philosophical arguments that go on would eliminate most of engineering and technology if they were applied in those fields.

The purpose of this brief study is to offer a logical, practical, pragmatic proof of the existence of God from a purely scientific perspective. To do this, we are assuming that we exist, that there is reality, and that the matter of which we are made is real. If you do not believe that you exist, you have bigger problems than this study will entail and you will have to look elsewhere.

THE BEGINNING
If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1 :1). The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form, but it has always been. The Humanist Manifesto says, "Matter is self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief.

The way we decide whether the atheist is correct or not is to see what science has discovered about this question. The picture below on the left represents our part of the cosmos. Each of the disk shaped objects is a galaxy like our Milky Way. All of these galaxies are moving relative to each other. Their movement has a very distinct pattern which causes the distance between the galaxies to get greater with every passing day. If we had three galaxies located at positions A, B. and C in the second diagram below, and if they are located as shown, tomorrow they will be further apart. The triangle they form will be bigger. The day after tomorrow the triangle will be bigger yet. We live in an expanding universe that gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day.

 Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together. The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what scientists call a singularity!

A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The picture to the right is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear fusion. Every second that passes, the sun  compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it came into existence. This incredible furnace is not a process confined to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on forever, how much hydrogen should be left?

Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas (fuel) into it. As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to happen? I am going to run out of gas I If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is, however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe! Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the spectrum_a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not be unless we had a beginning!

A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomers refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is "everything that ever was or is or ever will be," as Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.

The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.

THE CAUSE
If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.

The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.

THE DESIGN
If we know that the creation had a beginning and we know that the beginning was caused, there is one last question for us to answer--what was the cause? The Bible tells us that God was the cause. We are further told that the God who did the causing did so with planning and reason and logic. Romans 1:20 tells us that we can know God is "through the things he has made." The atheist, on the other hand, will try to convince us that we are the product of chance. Julian Huxley once said:

We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents.  The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

Wow, CK9, France sounds like a great place to go to, but i'll stick to Italy and the Greecian Islands.  :)  I never knew so much about plasma.  lol.  btw, i didn't write this, i found it while reshearching.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 15, 2004, 04:49:05 AM
:huh: That guy seems to have read some things, but not enough by far. Most of the things he brought up have already been explained previously by *drums* me...

Quote
lol. btw, i didn't write this, i found it while reshearching.
Yes i can see that, the article among other refers to several pictures.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html (http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html)

Quote
Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together. The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what scientists call a singularity!

That's what we call the big bang, the point of origin. Labelling it with "beginning" just to play some word game is rather dense.

Quote
A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The picture to the right is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear fusion. Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it came into existence. This incredible furnace is not a process confined to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on forever, how much hydrogen should be left?

*sigh* I will once again call upon the holy mantra... *drums* Big bang, as such it hasn't been going on "forever" just a very long time. With the constant expanse of the universe we can with hubble view newer planets and follow the steps in which the the space dust turns into planets. When looking really far back with hubble we see lots of space dust, the space dust is there because of the quark-gluon plasma explained earlier. As hubble looks closer to ourselves in other words looking at the older parts of the universe the space dust slowly goes to rings, then big "rocks" the rocks then begin a process which made into into a hot lava throwing giant etc...

Quote
Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas (fuel) into it. As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to happen? I am going to run out of gas I If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is, however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe! Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the spectrum_a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not be unless we had a beginning!
*duh* When a sun finally runs out of hydrogen the result will either be a supernova or a simple death of the sun. Our own sun will not go supernova, it needs to be atleast ten times bigger in order for that to happen. When our sun dies it will throw of all matter and just leave a big splotch of space dust, possibly creating a nebula with the right conditions. Our sun will then have succesfully have run out of hydrogen.
However if the sun goes supernova, as in *big boom* imploding into itself a black hole will be created. At the end of a black holes life what is thrown out except huge amounts of radiation, hydrogen. Black holes immense gravity has a mean knack of pulling matter into the most basic parts thus, hydrogen.
So even within a universe that eventually has its hydrogen reserves resetted by a new big bang there's a recycle system providing the universe with new hydrogen.

Quote
A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomers refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is "everything that ever was or is or ever will be," as Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.

Excuse me before i shoot myself, haven't i explained this particular topic to many times. garretsgirl, i hereby condemn you to take two take two steps back and lose one turn muahaha *cough*  :blush:
The golden law, matter and energy is never lost only turned into another form.

Quote
THE CAUSE
If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

Ah, atlast he dives into something science didn't answer 20 years ago...
No, we can't say what was before the very first bigbang.

Quote
We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents. The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

Please refer to previous discussions in this thread...

As for the "the anthropic principle" it can be compared with the second law of thermodynamics, while the principle describes certain "chances" already explained by other laws it adds an improbability to both quantum physics, evolution and even the chance of a planet being created. It basicly also says that it is impossible to win a lottery. While i may agree that the chance of winning a lottery is small everyone knows that sooner or later you win. It's like the demonic spawn of a pissed off christian. As such it is very controversial and old, it offers no alternatives and breaks
most science and day to day events. For example with this principle being correct you rule out all kinds of luck and "divine interference" (if you are about to step in front of a car but are somehow saved from it i say "how lucky i am" while you say "oh thank god") but with the principle in effect you would always no matter the situation get run over by the car. A weak example but i'm only trying to make you get the picture.

The (weak and strong) principle has since long been thrown in the garbage bin. (they have multiple versions of it, they tried desperately to "upgrade" the theory so that scientists wouldn't simply smash it to pieces everytime, they failed miserably when trying to upgrade it)

The nasty part of this principle is that as with the second law, sites all over the net bring it up in some sort of self denial comparable with the "missing day" posted by mustang i think. Even though NASA has over and over explained that there never even was such an event the christians that read the story blamed them for a conspiracy and keeping the truth from the public and regarded it as true. *sigh* I remember almost blowing my brains out when even sammyk brought the thing up, the incident is 40 years old to even begin with. bleh, Einstein was correct when saying that there are only two infinite things, space and human stupidity and he wasn't sure about space...

Except for answering what triggered this entire mess (before the big bang) all of the points he brought up was simply gibberish (which we have already been through) explained by science years ago...

(fixed some spelling errors)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 15, 2004, 11:08:25 AM
chemistry is more my thing than that stuff, lol

I don't understand a lot of what's being said
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 15, 2004, 03:44:25 PM
Has anyone been to http://www.biblecode.com (http://www.biblecode.com) yet?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 15, 2004, 11:30:05 PM
I have a question....what is on the other side of a black hole? Where does everything go that get's sucked into the black hole?

That was a very good article Garrettsgirl, and no matter what Zircon says to disprove it, I liked it. You don't have real proof that God does or doesn't exist, all you have is theories versus belief and faith. No one will ever be able to truely prove either way. I like this discussion and I hope that more interesting theories are brought up.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 16, 2004, 12:09:07 AM
to say that theories and faith are opposing forces is incorrect.  Scientist have faith that their theories are going to be proven correct, but a true scientist will turn either conclusion into a learning opportunity.


BTW, Zues, in answer to your question about black holes, who cares?  That stuff is in there, not out here, so how can it really effect us?  A black hole is basically a gravity well, it has a point within itself that generates the gravitational pull (which is so strong light cannot escape it), E.O.S.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 16, 2004, 12:15:54 AM
Actually saying that light cannot escape it has been proven wrong. I forgot where I saw that...I think it was CNN (television).
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 16, 2004, 01:40:11 AM
Quote
I have a question....what is on the other side of a black hole? Where does everything go that get's sucked into the black hole?
There is no "other side", a black hole is so heavy that it compresses itself infinitly (well almost) all the matter and energy is there, it's just very compact.

A 1 dm square small black hole would easily consume the entire solarsystem.
When looking at other galaxies you can *drums* again with hubble see something black in the middle (surrounded by hot gasses) and everything rotates around it.

As we have concluded that our own universe is a spiral galaxy it's a safe bet to say that we also have a super massive black hole in the center. (although not so massive, the hole itself can be very small but the gravitation well is huge.)

Black holes are not rifts in space/time...

Quote
   Actually saying that light cannot escape it has been proven wrong. I forgot where I saw that...I think it was CNN (television).

During very rare circumstances the black hole "chokes" on itself creating gaps in the gravity field allowing huge amounts of radiation (energy) (which in turn is light) to escape.

Once the black hole collapses (dies) it also lets free all the matter it has eaten (in mangled form)

So to make it easy saying that light cannot escape is true.
(If a black hole allowed light to frequently escape it wouldn't be very black would it, the reason you can actually see a black hole (well you cant really, just the surrounding matter) is among other because of the ring of matter it surrounds itself with. The ring gets heated and as such illuminates itself.)

Although im guessing CNN might have said it a bit differently, CNN is among other where op2hacker got his info that they had already found the wreckage of noah's ark  :rolleyes:

(and before you say, "Yes i heard about that, it's true. Suck on that one!". Read the other topic in which the whole deal was explained... Somewhere in the forum)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 16, 2004, 02:28:50 AM
Are you saying that CNN doesn't know what they're talking about and make up crap all the time? I would have to call bulls*** there.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 16, 2004, 09:09:04 AM
Zues, it's called yellow journalism, it happens all the time, and because in the US there is freedom of the press, nothing can be done about it.  Isn't this just a great country, where a news company can make up a bunch of BS and no one can do much about it
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on August 16, 2004, 10:03:39 AM
They don't make up totally false stories. To do that would be accepting of millions of complaints and hate mails.
Also they can't make false things about people, to do that would be illegal (libel)

What they DO do however, is slant the news to their bias (ex. politics this is done a lot, it seems that they slant it to agree more with the Democrats).

In regards to the noah's ark thing on top of the mountain, I didn't hear it off of CNN. News gets spread around to the different networks and pretty much everyone has it. (That's how it works here.... I don't know if it's like that where you live)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 16, 2004, 10:58:31 AM
lol, hacker, they still have made a bunch of BS in their stories
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 16, 2004, 11:05:00 AM
Quote
That was a very good article Garrettsgirl, and no matter what Zircon says to disprove it, I liked it. You don't have real proof that God does or doesn't exist, all you have is theories versus belief and faith. No one will ever be able to truely prove either way. I like this discussion and I hope that more interesting theories are brought up.

Glad that you liked it Zeus.  That's just it! The whole idea pf being a Christian is that you never really no whether Christ is real.  You have to have faith.  So Z, you proved pretty much proved every point wrong in that article.  Well, like Zeus pointed out, TRUE christians don't need science to prove or disprove (don'tno if that's a word) the existence of God.  It's all about faith.  Some got it, some don't.  Yeah CK9, i'm not good at understanding all this either, however, chem was the only science i never got a D in (i got a B  :D ).
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 16, 2004, 11:17:56 AM
lol, I got a B in AP chem (percentage wise, that's equivilant to a C, lol)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 16, 2004, 12:02:37 PM
Quote
Are you saying that CNN doesn't know what they're talking about and make up crap all the time? I would have to call bulls*** there.
*sigh* That's not what i said...

The thing was that originally people thought that before the death of a black hole nothing could never ever escape, it was treated as an impossibility.

But with for example hubble it clearly shows that once in a while black holes let out strong concentrated packets of radiation.

Further follow up showed that the black holes "choke" on themselves eventually resulting in a "hickup" or "sneeze" allowing energy to escape for a very short amount of time.

News always overblow things and with this they might have said "newsflash: Black Holes do indeed let matter escape" but the truth is that it can only do it under very specific circumstances, but it is still lightyears from letting matter constantly escape from it.

They're not lying just, not putting all the cards on the table. Understand?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 16, 2004, 01:21:56 PM
lol

one day we will find a way to "force feed" and "choke" them
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 16, 2004, 09:11:36 PM
I have alot of theries about black holes (and dont got on all that crap about "Oh, its a thery it cant be true" crap) one of my best is described at the end of the debate thread of "Should we go back to the Moon"

btw there are 5 states of matter, the fifth state is Nutron (sry about spelling) the substence at the center of Nutron stars, it is so compact that the protons and electrons have been stripped from their atoms and only nutrons remain

I still see the futility of this debate, the faithful people are not going to fail, and the science people are not going to accept blind faith

one thing I have been wondering is, how do you know that your faith is the correct one, correct as in the one that will get you into heavon (if it exists)

I mean there are hundreds of types of religions out there, only 1 (or 0) can be correct, it reminds me of the lottery thing

but I mean, how do you know that the Jews arnt the correct ones, or the Islamic people arnt, or the Hindews? or any of the other religions?

the only reason christionaty is so big today is because 2000 years ago some roman general probly had a halucanation (they drank lead) and saw a cross in the sky, and thus when he became emperor he converted the entire roman empire into christions

if that general hadnt have had that halucanation, christionaty would have probly been wiped out (they were being killd by the thousands)

whats my point?

I HAVE NONE!!!!!!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 16, 2004, 09:59:23 PM
actually, beta, I think it was the fact that the followers that were being killed that it is so "popular" (one of those, "it must be them trying to keep power" things)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 16, 2004, 10:24:11 PM
Actually, there are a few reason why I believe in the bible. Reason #1: Jerusalim (sorry for spelling) is there. Reason #2: The temple the bible talks about is in ruins, but it is still there. Reason #3: Learned it at sonfest but can't remember the 3rd reason.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 16, 2004, 11:09:11 PM
Beta...Islam, jews, Catholics, and Christian's all come from the same base religion....they just split off. Now except for Muslims, we all still worship the same God. Muslims had a few radical leaders that kinda screwed everything up, but I don't know any specifics, so I don't wanna argue that. Look at the planet, of all the religious beliefs, how much is made up of Catholics, Christians, and Jewish religions...which all worship the same God. The other relgions rely on what was said by some old fart a long time ago, but our bible involves real people and real events. And even if we are wrong, it is better to look forward to something better after death than to look at it as just an end to a meaningless life.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 17, 2004, 12:01:08 AM
for myself, as I have said in a previous post, if things go according to plan, my life will never end, I beleave I know the secreat to imortality, and more than that, Godlike abilitys (including the ability to create and destroy planets at will)

man I love technoligy
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 17, 2004, 12:03:00 AM
Your scaring me Beta
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 17, 2004, 12:15:20 AM
why have nukes when every cell in your body is capeable of producing as much energy as 3 stars?

complete nanological cybortics, meaning that every cell in my body will have organic componets and nanites, for example the mitocondria would be replaced with a nanological tri-stage fusion genarator, and the nucleous would be partly replaced with a nanological proteen based boptronic computer, each capeable of storing my entire thought and memory process, and capeable of producing enough matter and energy to replacate itself trillions of times, thus all I would need is 1 cell to live, and I would regenarate

although I doubt that would happen, because with all that computing power linked togahter, I would be the smartest entity in the Universe, and with complete control of my body, I could become anything, from a starship, to spacedust,

and of corse, with that much energy avaible and the atom synthiszing propertys of the tri-stage fusion genarators I could make any thing I wanted

the only bad thing is though, is I would need hydrogen, thats what powers the tristage fusion reactors, but hydrogen is the most abundent element in the Universe, and with my inteligence it would be impossible to trick me into not getting it

plus I would be constantly evolving (I dont care if nature did it before or not, I will) and mabe eventually have pico technoligy, where I would just become even more powerful

basicly nothing would stop me, but I could become this with just a little shot, wich I Plan to have adminastered on my deathbed in case it dosnt work

but if it does, humanidy will have a new god, until I get bored and destroy it and go out to look for more intresting things lol




and from now on I am ignored, but everyone keeps an eye on me lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 17, 2004, 09:38:48 AM
Don't let the Nincompoop (Under your avatar above the "Global Mod" label beta) scare you, his plans will never succede.
Too many people will resist.
Oh, and there is only 1 God, and he is Jesus and the Holy Ghost at the same time.
(I don't know if I worded that right, but i was refering to the trinity)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 17, 2004, 02:36:20 PM
beta, three errors:

1: that kind of technology, although it really is available (don't ask me how I know), is too unstable

2: being smart doesn't have to do just with mental capacity.  Einstein was a genious because his brain had extra of what they call "cleaner" cells, cells that break-down the dead brain-cells, and thus make the nural-pathways (sp?) more open.

3: it is easy to trick a very smart person, as they get arrogant and think, "oh yeah, I'm the best, no one can outsmart me!"
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 17, 2004, 11:17:45 PM
Quote
Don't let the Nincompoop (Under your avatar above the "Global Mod" label beta) scare you, his plans will never succede.
Too many people will resist.
Oh, and there is only 1 God, and he is Jesus and the Holy Ghost at the same time.
(I don't know if I worded that right, but i was refering to the trinity)
Are you talking about the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

And I know that Beta will not succeed. Even if it were possible (which I don't think it is), it wouldn't be in this life time.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 17, 2004, 11:45:55 PM
I like the song Mrs American Pie (title may be wrong)...


anyway, there are too many technological errors in beta's plan
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on August 18, 2004, 08:58:06 AM
Quote
2: being smart doesn't have to do just with mental capacity.  Einstein was a genious because his brain had extra of what they call "cleaner" cells, cells that break-down the dead brain-cells, and thus make the nural-pathways (sp?) more open.
Brain matter doesn't "die" like normal cells.. brain cells last an incredibly long time.

Remember that brain cells do not go thru the normal cell cycle. About the only time they are dividing are prenatally and during the first few years as the brain developes.

After that they enter the G0 cell state, where they stay for the rest of the person's life. No cellular division occurs except in very very very rare cases (put: never in the average person's life.)

There are not 'dead' cells in the brain (unless the brain has an injury, then yes it is full of scar tissue, etc)

The 'cleaner cells' he refers to are macrophages, which are part of the basic immune system (they are part of the secondary immune response, and trigger the CD4 cells (aka Helper T Cells) to start the tertiary immune response.

Macrophages do not usually destroy the body's cells (except if they are infected with a known antigen, or there is an autoimmune disease)

Normally dying cells are broken down by the spleen (organ near the liver)

--------

In regards to Beta's post, the majority of it is nothing but sci-fi.

"nanological tri-stage fusion genarator" --- straight out of sci-fi. It has no scientific basis and is a "made up phrase". Anyone could make a name like that eg "Ionic Deflection Superconductive Rotary Shift Fusion Motor".

and so on....
 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 18, 2004, 09:11:29 AM
I have to agree with op2hacker on this one...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 18, 2004, 12:04:07 PM
actually hacker, in my tiredness, I neglected to bring the whole story back up in my mind.  In the brain there are special repair cells, and there are Macrophages.  There are stems of organic material that tend to breack down a little, and the repair cells (forget their name) rebuild some of the genetic code if it is missing.  If too much is missing, the ammount it doesn't rebuild gets thrown away (which is what I was thinking of last night).

It was a long while back that I saw the special on (I think) the Discovery Channel, so small fragments that may or may not be important are missing from my memory of it...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Ezekel on August 18, 2004, 01:38:09 PM
Quote
Quote
That was a very good article Garrettsgirl, and no matter what Zircon says to disprove it, I liked it. You don't have real proof that God does or doesn't exist, all you have is theories versus belief and faith. No one will ever be able to truely prove either way. I like this discussion and I hope that more interesting theories are brought up.

Glad that you liked it Zeus.  That's just it! The whole idea pf being a Christian is that you never really no whether Christ is real.  You have to have faith.  So Z, you proved pretty much proved every point wrong in that article.  Well, like Zeus pointed out, TRUE christians don't need science to prove or disprove (don'tno if that's a word) the existence of God.  It's all about faith.  Some got it, some don't.  Yeah CK9, i'm not good at understanding all this either, however, chem was the only science i never got a D in (i got a B  :D ).
christ was real


and i'm saying this as a jew and not a christian so don't flame me about this.

however, whats to debate is
 A: was he the messiah (or as teh christian belief stands, was he god's son)?
 B: does god exist (as in THE god not a god... thats another issue that i'm not stepping on right now).

it is all about faith. and its strength lies in the fact that it cannot be ascertained.

to use the jewish point of view; god gave man freewill. therefore man may choose to believe or not believe in god. however, if proof appeared that showed that god DOES exist, then man(kind) would lose freewill, as mankind would not be able to do anything BUT serve/believe/prayto him as it is not only the the logical choose, but further ...well its just not possible to go against an all powerful ...being (for lack of more a appropriate word) that reveals itself to you (assuming you don't disintegrate instantly from teh "image" of god).

of course on a similar note, it is impossible to proove that god does not exist due to the nature of god allowing for it to include the fact that god is able to exist outside the universe as well as inside. (perhaps god IS the multiverse... each universe like a cell of the body. it'd be in sync  with saying god is infinite).
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 18, 2004, 03:46:50 PM
Ezekel, the one point I keep seeing brought up is that if it was proven that god does exist that we would have to worship him.  I personally find that false.  Just because a king ruled ov er people didn't mean they always listened, there were times when the nobles lost control and rebellion took over the land.  If there was definate proof in "god," I still would not worship because that is what I choose.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 18, 2004, 06:34:39 PM
Free will is not affected, Adam and Eve had it, hence the reason they Ate from the tree of knowledge when satan tricked them, if they didn't ahve free will, then they wouldn't have done that cause it was gods command that they don't. Sin has been around since the first Humans that God created.

The only proof of god existing is the bible, maybe a bit more, and the bible is true. (Please do not shoot me or flame me for saying that anyone)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 18, 2004, 08:08:01 PM
Plym, this is not flaming, but I will have to argue it.

Yes there are some truths within the bible, but like much else in the time period, the stories were modified to glorify and bring them to say a common thing
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 18, 2004, 11:38:28 PM
CK9, you don't know if you'd worship him or not. If he was known before you were born, your whole life would have been different. Even if he revealed himself now, you don't know what you'd do. Like back in the Greek days when they believed in Zeus, Apollo, Hades, etc...They lived their life according to what they believed the gods wanted them to do. If God suddenly showed himself, the world would change and life would never be the same.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 19, 2004, 12:34:19 AM
actually, I do know, Zues.  Unlike most people, I look into all possibilities that could have happened in my life.  Each one comes to the same thing: I do not want to follow the sheeo as they flock to their shepard,
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 19, 2004, 12:55:00 AM
You would not have the same train of thought if you grew up worshiping God, and all of your possibilities are based on the world staying the same. Though you wouldn't change right away, the world would and you'd adjust with it automatically and eventually life would be about God.

"Never say Never"
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 19, 2004, 03:37:19 AM
Sometimes the created need to rise against their creator in order to advance.

Now someone might say, "Go against "GOD" ?!?! "

But why not, if "god" existed he would be forced to be passive and not interact or kill his creation. As such humanity is free to eventually step above the boundaries of death.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on August 19, 2004, 07:50:44 AM
Quote
actually hacker, in my tiredness, I neglected to bring the whole story back up in my mind.  In the brain there are special repair cells, and there are Macrophages.  There are stems of organic material that tend to breack down a little, and the repair cells (forget their name) rebuild some of the genetic code if it is missing.  If too much is missing, the ammount it doesn't rebuild gets thrown away (which is what I was thinking of last night).
I think you are referring to DNA polymerase... its an enzyme that is inside every human cell, it replicates and repairs DNA.

Quote
But why not, if "god" existed he would be forced to be passive and not interact or kill his creation. As such humanity is free to eventually step above the boundaries of death.

It's impossible to defeat a supernatural being (this would include things like demons etc, you need the help of God to defeat them)

BTW... humans are confined to a lot of things. we are confined to space, time, and laws of physics.
supernatural beings don't have any of this limitation.

In regards to God killing people, he can and he did (popular reference: cities of Sodom and Gomorrah where he turned people into blocks of salt).

Nowadays he doesn't just cause people to turn into blocks of salt but he controls what happens and allows certain good / bad things to happen.

He may not kill someone directly, but he could cause someone to kill them.

In order for a race to rise above its creator, it needs to be equal to the creator. We aren't equal to God. so it's not possible for this to happen.

You will understand what I meant when you die (seeing where you may end up).
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 19, 2004, 09:41:58 AM
yes! finally I remember some fragments that were missing!  Thanks Hacker


Zues,  I did grow up worshiping God until I was 10 (and old enough to start using my brain for something more useful than games), I chose to no longer be under the dictation of a figurehead.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 19, 2004, 10:11:13 AM
Quote
But why not, if "god" existed he would be forced to be passive and not interact or kill his creation. As such humanity is free to eventually step above the boundaries of death.
In typing "god" zircon, you are not reffering to the "God" i believe, as you did not capitolize the g, you are reffering to someone's fake god.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 19, 2004, 10:39:23 AM
ah, so now we're talking about demons, and that comes from someone that thought beta's post was sci-fi :wacko:

Besides, the devil is perhaps a really nice ol'chap, i imagine that he's gotten rather tired from torturing people  :rolleyes:

Im going to do something more "real" for the moment capitalised with reality  ;) and saltblocks...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 19, 2004, 01:15:39 PM
*makes a cross outta his fingures* Stay back!

You must know that Satan used to be Lucifer, the evil angel, so God cast him down into hell where he became the Devil, and he will never tire of making people miserable.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 19, 2004, 01:22:36 PM
It's just so much more fun to be evil sometimes, don't you know that yet plym?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 19, 2004, 07:37:14 PM
ck, i do know that, as you do have an evil side to yourself.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 19, 2004, 08:33:54 PM
hay, you can beleave in the past, I'm going to beleave in the future

and I can be as ignorent as you guys, and there is nothing that can disprove it, because it is the future, you cant say that somthing isnt going to happon
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 19, 2004, 11:02:16 PM
Quote
*makes a cross outta his fingures* Stay back!

You must know that Satan used to be Lucifer, the evil angel, so God cast him down into hell where he became the Devil, and he will never tire of making people miserable.
God didn't cast down Lucifer because he was "evil." He cast him down because he rose against God and Lucifer rose against God mainly out of jealousy of human's.

Quote
In regards to God killing people, he can and he did (popular reference: cities of Sodom and Gomorrah where he turned people into blocks of salt).

God also killed everyone on Earth except Noah, his wife, and he sons during the great flood. The Earth a very bad place and God killed everyone except them. When the water's came back down, they re-populated the Earth.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 20, 2004, 11:15:11 AM
so it was kinda a reverse of the saying, "rise comes before fal"l?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 20, 2004, 12:32:19 PM
Sometimes that is the case.

Zeus, i did not give a reason why God cast him out of heaven, i just said that he was Evil. Jealousy is Evil. In the commandments we are told not to be jealous of our neighbors. I don't remember the exact wording though.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 20, 2004, 08:12:40 PM
Isn't it, "Love thy neighbor"?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 21, 2004, 01:47:36 PM
I don't remember if it was that one or a different one.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 21, 2004, 05:28:52 PM
That's the most commonly known one
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 21, 2004, 07:01:27 PM
Jealousy is one of the seven deadly sins and Love thy neighbor is one of the commandments. Which of the two are you looking for?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 21, 2004, 09:07:19 PM
Zues, i new both, i just can't remember if that was teh commandment I was thinking of or not.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 21, 2004, 09:13:23 PM
Anyway, If you guys read any of that athiest's essay that Arklon posted, you would know this:

why are there two different sets of 10 commandments listed in the Bible?  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 21, 2004, 10:10:18 PM
Quote
Anyway, If you guys read any of that athiest's essay that Arklon posted, you would know this:

why are there two different sets of 10 commandments listed in the Bible?

If you are talking about before Christ and after Christ, here's why:  when  God gave us the first set of comandments, it was to guide us so we would know what was right and wrong.  After Christ came we were told the first and upmost important commandment was to "love the Lord with all you heart, soul, strength, and mind" Matt. 22:37.  If you ever get a chance, read John 3 Jesus teaches Nicodemus.   That states that not only must you believe in Christ to escape judgement, but you must also become "born again" which is where you get my denomination name, "born again Christians."  Beta, i don't know where you got that idea (i actually don't wanna either), but Y?  I mean, y would u want to do that to yourself?  

Hey guys, guess what... i turn 16 on wed. the 25th. kool.  Wow, i was gone for like a week and 2 more paged were added.  This is great.

 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 22, 2004, 12:46:08 AM
I think I'll finish reading my Crichton books first
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 22, 2004, 10:06:55 AM
guess what, i'm 15 in 2 days, the 24th :D :P YAY! Someone here is not quite 1 year older then me, by 1 day, of course :P
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 22, 2004, 04:35:37 PM
let me quote George Carlin, in all his glory

from his book "Napalm and Silly Putty"

"Bulls*** from the sky

But folks, I have to tell you, in the bulls*** department a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.  Because when it comes to bulls***.  Big-time, major-keague bulls***.  You have to stand in awe-in awe!-of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion.  No contest.


Religion-easily-has the Greatest Bulls*** Story Ever Told!  Think about it: religion has actually convinced people-many of them adults-that there's an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do, every minute of every day.  And who has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.

And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever, till teh end of time.  But he loves you!

He loves you, and he needs money!  He always needs money.  He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, but somehow...he just can't handle money.   Religion takes in billions of dollars, pays no taxes, and somehow always needs a little more.  Now, you talks about a good bulls*** story.  Holy s***!"

I beleave that expresses my views quite accurately as well
 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 22, 2004, 06:25:51 PM
Only once have I seen the smiley I want to post, but I cannot remember where :(  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 22, 2004, 08:48:36 PM
is that a good thing or a bad thing? (the smily?)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 22, 2004, 10:53:23 PM
The smiley I want to use is a good thing for some, not for others (it is laughing so hard that it is funny)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 22, 2004, 10:56:07 PM
Quote
let me quote George Carlin, in all his glory

from his book "Napalm and Silly Putty"

"Bulls*** from the sky

But folks, I have to tell you, in the bulls*** department a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.  Because when it comes to bulls***.  Big-time, major-keague bulls***.  You have to stand in awe-in awe!-of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion.  No contest.


Religion-easily-has the Greatest Bulls*** Story Ever Told!  Think about it: religion has actually convinced people-many of them adults-that there's an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do, every minute of every day.  And who has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.

And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever, till teh end of time.  But he loves you!

He loves you, and he needs money!  He always needs money.  He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, but somehow...he just can't handle money.   Religion takes in billions of dollars, pays no taxes, and somehow always needs a little more.  Now, you talks about a good bulls*** story.  Holy s***!"

I beleave that expresses my views quite accurately as well
You know what Beta...your little story here is the biggest Bulls*** story I've ever read.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 23, 2004, 06:38:21 AM
Metaphorically however as the story is meant doesn't it sum things up pretty well?

1: Religion has convinced alot of adults.
2: You cannot see him thus invisible.
3: Sky also means heaven (which in turn is a metaphor for the place which in god reside), which "God" resides in.
4: Some say "God" are always with them thus doesn't he see everything you do.
5: He has a list, the ten commandments that you shouldn't do.
6: And if you do one of them and don't beg for forgiveness, he simply throws you down to "hell".
7: But he loves you, he loves everyone as you like to say.
8: The church has a lot of money, alot. And they're always open for more money.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on August 23, 2004, 08:47:37 AM
I think it's funny hearing this all from someone who has in their signature "God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist."

FYI.. You can't see Him. its called faith, something you have in many other things... eg your car engine (you dont take apart the engine to see if it's in "usable" condition everytime you drive the car, you just assume it works)

Yes, God sees everything you do (as you'd assume an infinite being to be able to do)
And he will put anyone to hell if they haven't repented. (yes from the start you are a sinner).
 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 23, 2004, 10:23:41 AM
*wipes off oil* you don't?


let me ask you this, if your 'God' is just, why does he let his messangers die horrible deaths?  For this example, I'll use Joan Tark, known to most of you as Joan of Arc.  She heard and followed the instructions of saints, knew things she couldn't have known on her own, and she led an entire army that liberated several cities that were wrongfully occupied.  Then she was captured, given orders on what to do (then the means to follow them were taken away), unjustfully tried for herasy, and burned at a stake
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 23, 2004, 10:35:25 AM
Quote
I think it's funny hearing this all from someone who has in their signature "God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist."

*twitch* (http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Twitch_anim.gif)

*cough* Questioning the intelligence of someone is usually rude so i'll just ask if you had recently consumed alcohol?

If you read the first part of the quote you'll see that they are connected and the final line merely brings up an example of the dumb logic some use.

Quote
Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me.
We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts.

To sum it up people believe what he prefers to be true instead of what evidence points at and what is likely.

"God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist." <-- Example of slimmest hope/unlikeliness and dumb logic...

(http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/edoom/Thinkingof_.gif)
This is perhaps a sign that i should put something simpler in my signature, so that people might comprehend it...

_____________________
Not only does god play dice, the dice are loaded... <-- Dont worry i'm not counting on anyone understanding that one...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 23, 2004, 11:02:36 AM
Zircon, ever since I heard that in a song (Tonight I'll Take What I Can Get, Dashboard Confessional "...well these dice are loaded, lord I am too...") I have been wanting to know what the hell that means...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 23, 2004, 11:15:11 AM
Quote
These dice are loaded and Lord I am too
I might be losing but I'm leaving soon
With the prettiest girl
To enter this dump
She drank all of the whisky but she left me the rum
And tonight I'll take what I can get
Tonight I'll take what I can get
Tonight I'll take what I can get
Tonight I'll take what I can get

I dont think the two are necessarily connected but in the dashboard song it sounds more like he's betting everything on something, the end result will either be glory or total loss as in russian roulette. (a return?)

Live hard die young...
The dice might even be pointing toward a gun of sorts...

Quote
Brand new starts make saints of sinners
But I'm doomed to live in my past

Perhaps a bet on lifestyle. It's a deep and cryptic song.  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 23, 2004, 11:18:24 AM
well, Z, it's an emo band, what do you expect?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 23, 2004, 11:23:04 AM
I've never listened to them :heh:

While the lyrics might be interesting it's not my kind of music.
 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 23, 2004, 11:24:36 AM
a lot of music I find myself listening to lately wasn't my kind of music last year, I guess that part of my mind finally caught up with my body :heh:
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 23, 2004, 01:45:24 PM
to tell you the truth, i used to listen to just Country, now i like more types of music.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 23, 2004, 03:28:24 PM
I used to hate pop/rock and rap, but now I love them...but I still like country too. I broadened my horizons a little.

I have a simple question....CAN ANYONE PROVE THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST???? If not than there is no more proof back any of your statements than there is backing mine.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 23, 2004, 03:55:52 PM
I can only speak for myself but the latest posts don't say that "god" doesn't exist, merely discussing the probability of a supernatural existing.

As for "statements" please point at specific statements because the thread has gotten rather large.

For example the statement that light redshifts during long distances used in among other  to examine the big bang doesn't have anything with "god" to do.

And we have already been over that question before, no because "god" is a supernatural being as you said yourself you cant prove that something with either no mass nor energy doesn't exist or exist... How can you prove nothing "nothing"...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 23, 2004, 04:51:16 PM
I can't beleave you dissed George Carlin!!!!!!!!!

I'm too shocked for words
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 23, 2004, 08:34:41 PM
Then why do you continue to talk?


The reason I believe 'God' is a creation is simple: man kind likes to cause problems.  Look around you, what do you see?  Most likely 'conviniences' that are man-made.  Think about every problem that you have had with them (for things that cook: burns, raw food, ect.).  Tools ment to help get food became tools of war.  See my point?  Everything made by humans soon became or caused some kind of problem.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 23, 2004, 09:42:40 PM
anyway...if so many religions are about the same basic thing, why are there so many battles between them?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 24, 2004, 11:17:18 AM
Because, even though most religions are based on the same thing, they still have different beliefs that plunge them into wars.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 24, 2004, 10:58:36 PM
Like the muslims and the Jews. If you go back far enough their religion's cross each other. But at one point some broke off and started teaching things their own way and after a little bit you have two completely seperate religions. Wars are fought sometimes because one nation tries to enforce their beliefs on another, some are fought because one nation belives their God told them to....but religion has been such a big part of history.

The pilgrams came over here mainly for religious beliefs is one example...now we are the most powerful nation on the Earth 20 or 30 times over.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on August 25, 2004, 06:18:14 AM
Someone needs to be brought down to Earth again...  :rolleyes:  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 25, 2004, 08:46:33 AM
Only the Puritans (yeah, they were most of the pilgrims) came ver because of religios persecution.  It was the intentions of ou founding fathers that religion never be involved in government issues, and it was George Wasington's goal to prevent political parties as they would, "seperate the people."
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 25, 2004, 04:21:34 PM
yea, I wish we stayd a no party system, instad of forcing people to go Republican or Democrat or another party, they should just be able to vote for the person they suit is best for president or any other public office

people should have ideas, not beliefs about religion, an idea can evolve, it can change, for a belief, it may take the slauter of thousands or even millions to change it

anything belief on hatrid or thinking they are above other beliefs are wrong and bad, unfortunally almost all beliefs beleave they are the best and the most ritius ones, there lieing the conflict

its all the same basic message, people should open their minds and question on what their fighting about, if they really are all that different



ok, man I really sounded like a hippey didnt I? lol, well im full, just had some ravoli with homemade sause and man it was good!!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 25, 2004, 11:14:27 PM
A no party system. Beta I'm sorry but, that is the stupidest thing I think you've ever said. People don't have to vote with their party. People who are registered Republican's can vote Democrate, Independent, or Communist part if they wish (yes there is one).

Without a party system, where would you get your variety of ideas. You have to have at least several parties to see every angle.


Ideas? If there is no proof of something yet you still BELIEVE it exists, then how could it not be called belief? Idea's are about something you know exist's, like our government, people have idea's about what it should be like and how it should change. But with God there is no proof, so you have belief's because you believe he exists.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 25, 2004, 11:26:25 PM
you have to admint, thought, that if no parties existed, polotics would be a little better. (less people in a party going, "haha we won")
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 26, 2004, 01:18:26 AM
Politics would actually be worse. We wouldn't have multiple parties to point out things that the other party is trying to get passed, we would have less rights because of that. We wouldn't be as represented since you'd have to pick from people who basically had the same points of views if they really belonged to the same party.

I don't think it is possible to have one party and I think it would destroy our country.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 26, 2004, 08:29:47 AM
people would be less lazy and actually read what they are voting on.  (BTW, see how easy it is to evolve a topic into another one?)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on August 26, 2004, 10:47:43 AM
Quote
Only the Puritans (yeah, they were most of the pilgrims) came ver because of religios persecution.  It was the intentions of ou founding fathers that religion never be involved in government issues, and it was George Wasington's goal to prevent political parties as they would, "seperate the people."
Political parties are impossible to avoid... People band together into 'groups' because they share a common ideology. It's human nature and there's no way you can change that.

Regarding the Puritans:

They have NOTHING to do with christianity (even though they thought they did).

Just the way they acted toward others (if the others practiced a different religion, they would force them to leave or convert to their religion. If the others refused to either, they would kill them).

Most importantly they believed in "predestination" (that you were randomly chosen to go to heaven or hell) and there was nothing they could do to change that. That's totally against Christianity.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 26, 2004, 12:54:29 PM
Quote
Quote from: CK9,Aug 25 2004, 09:46 AM
Regarding the Puritans:

They have NOTHING to do with christianity (even though they thought they did).

Just the way they acted toward others (if the others practiced a different religion, they would force them to leave or convert to their religion. If the others refused to either, they would kill them).

Most importantly they believed in "predestination" (that you were randomly chosen to go to heaven or hell) and there was nothing they could do to change that. That's totally against Christianity.
Sounds like catholics.  j/k.  I didn't mean it.  and about polotics, i hate polotics.  I hate it when people lie and say bad stuff about their opponents just to win.  I am a republican.  I would vote for Bush b/c  i like what he's doing in the nation.  I also won't let myself be deffered by Kerry who has no plan of government but is complaining that Bush over does it.  I'd rather keep terrorists back than give them the perfect oppertunity to win.  I see what u mean, we did change topics easily.  But u know, this is all about one another's beliefs and how we put ourselves into groups to be around other people that believe in what you believe in.  That's why there are so many different denominations of Christians.  
 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on August 26, 2004, 09:44:57 PM
yea, Bush is doing a good job, and I have proof

THERE HAVEN'T BEEN ANY MORE TERRAREST ATTACKS ON THE U.S.!!

but I mean, it would be better if people achelly reshurced the canadates and pickd out for themselves who would be better instead of voteing for someone just because they are republican or democrat
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on August 27, 2004, 12:39:54 AM
beta, there also weren't that many to begin with -_-

anyway, anyone want to getto te topic?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 27, 2004, 10:06:47 AM
yes, please lets stick to the topic.  So, back to religious and scientific indiferences.  Since every time i try to use science to prove my point and Z just proves me wrong, i'll go back to saying: no matter what everyone else believes, the only thing that matters is what YOU believe.  too many times do i find people hearing things but not researching.  I LOVE it when Z proves me wrong b/c it shows me that he is basing his facts on just that... facts and not something he was told or heard about (my article that i posted here a while ago).  I believe in Christ (obviously) and i love to talk about Him (do you know a real Christian that doesn't).
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on August 27, 2004, 05:29:09 PM
Garrettsgirl, i do not know a christian that doesn't like to talk about him, i suppose that is why I enjoy these arguments on Bus trips with the mormons. Challenges me, even though it sometimes gets frustrating when they use that stuff against me.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on August 27, 2004, 11:39:31 PM
I love getting into religious debates with people, shoot I love debates all around. Of course science is going to prove relgion wrong...God wants us to believe in him through faith, not facts. So all the facts seem to point away from religion and then only the true believer's are Christian's. Think about it, for a true faith, a true belief, you would need it without proof. So to test us he probably made all the proof point the other way. God has a plan and what happens is always his doing.

I've heard before that people hate God or stop believing because they lost someone at a young age and they don't know why God would take them away..but it is because he gave us CHOICE. That person chose to go out at that exact time if it was a car crash. They could have left 1 minute earlier or later and would've been fine, the person they crash into made the choice to leave when they did. They may not have chosen to kill the other person, but they chose when to go out. The only way God could prevent the death would be to change the way things naturally happened, thus taking away our complete choice, he would have to make us leave earlier or later.

Ultimately it is always choice that kills us. If the people of September 11th had chosen not to come to work, they would've lived. The terrorists made the choice to run the plane into the building, God could've stopped it, but he would have taken away their right of choice. So don't ever blame God for what happened, but instead believe that the person that died is in a better place now.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on August 30, 2004, 08:12:40 AM
Quote
I love getting into religious debates with people, shoot I love debates all around. Of course science is going to prove relgion wrong...God wants us to believe in him through faith, not facts. So all the facts seem to point away from religion and then only the true believer's are Christian's. Think about it, for a true faith, a true belief, you would need it without proof. So to test us he probably made all the proof point the other way. God has a plan and what happens is always his doing.

I've heard before that people hate God or stop believing because they lost someone at a young age and they don't know why God would take them away..but it is because he gave us CHOICE. That person chose to go out at that exact time if it was a car crash. They could have left 1 minute earlier or later and would've been fine, the person they crash into made the choice to leave when they did. They may not have chosen to kill the other person, but they chose when to go out. The only way God could prevent the death would be to change the way things naturally happened, thus taking away our complete choice, he would have to make us leave earlier or later.

Ultimately it is always choice that kills us. If the people of September 11th had chosen not to come to work, they would've lived. The terrorists made the choice to run the plane into the building, God could've stopped it, but he would have taken away their right of choice. So don't ever blame God for what happened, but instead believe that the person that died is in a better place now.
i don't agree.  i believe that if you were to die that day, fate occurd and you were in that car crash that you were meant to die that day.  i do love debates too.  i could become a lawyer. lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 01, 2004, 09:25:34 PM
my dad is a lawyer, and for that reason I normally try to stay out of arguments

plus I dont want to get my ass beat lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 01, 2004, 09:56:22 PM
beta, in a debate, you'd probably get it handed to you :P
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 08, 2004, 03:21:39 PM
achelly last year, in english class, our last big project was a debate, and my topic was space

noone wanted to debate against me, so the teacher did, and I chewed the crap out of him lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 08, 2004, 05:20:00 PM
lol, let's debate something some time
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 09, 2004, 06:00:22 PM
ok, I'll start

I claim that we have 11 toes

why?

BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!

LOL
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 10, 2004, 04:33:19 AM
The eleventh toe is almighty invisible and created the universe, it has no matter and can thus not be proven or disproven.
*dresses in giant toe suit*

Our enemy is athlete's foot (fungus), anyone with a second toe longer then the big toe cannot marry and they should be decapitated...

If you do not pray and keep your feet clean you WILL be thrown into hell...

Now bow before the toe and "save" those that have used the evil fungus to produce "penicillin" the drug of the devil.

Testimonial:
Quote
One day in May, I was walking the yard and I overheard two men talking about some preacher. The one man said that he would come to visit anyone. I used a few choice words, and told the man that he was a liar, and that I would prove that he is like all the rest of the preachers. All the while I was in the church, no preacher cared about me, except the false love shown to me by the priest of the cult. I had cuss words flowing out of my mouth like water as usual. He gave me the preacher's address, and I wrote him a letter.

Two days later, I was called out on a visit. When I got to the visiting room, I looked for my parents, but all I saw was a very short man. I asked the officer where my visit was. He pointed at the short man, so I approached him. He introduced himself, and asked if I would like to go to the visiting yard. I answered him with a mouth of blue flames. We went out and sat by a table facing each other. For the first time in my life, I was facing a man who had no fear of me, nor could I intimidate him with my talk. He took his glasses off, laid them on the table, and said, "You are wasting the good air that the toe has given you." That made me mad and I wanted to tear his head off right then. He asked me to listen to him for a few minutes, and then I could talk. Something shut my mouth; I could not open it.

I listened to him for an hour telling me how much the toe loved me, and why He smelled for me. Tears came to my eyes, and I could not hold them back. I could feel my heart breaking and a want for this loving toe. After the preacher finished, I laid my life on the line, and told him everything. He smiled at me and asked me if I would like to become a child of the eleventh toe. In addition, would I want to have a life of joy? That day of May in 1990, I gave my life to the toe. The cussing stopped right then and there, and to this day, I don't cuss or use substitute words. I had never felt such PEACE!
Follow up: After his revelation he ended up falling down an open sewage drain carrying only a big sign saying "Repent! The end is nigh!"
He now leads the "sewage rat" cult...

Any similarities with the real world are merely coincidences.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 10, 2004, 08:23:13 AM
lol, Z, I think everyone's second toe is longer than their big toe
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 10, 2004, 10:16:35 AM
Perhaps, but it can be fixed *brings out army of mini guillotines* (http://www.computerpannen.com/cwm/contrib/icw/030.gif)

Cut your second toe off or you will suffer damnation, remember he loves you (http://www.computerpannen.com/cwm/otn/angels/bat_angel.gif) Your choice  ;)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: gpgarrettboast on September 10, 2004, 10:25:51 AM
lol. that's 100%. lol. Garrettsgirl's first 3 toes are the same size. :P
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 10, 2004, 05:42:57 PM
lol, Z, I will crush them!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on September 10, 2004, 06:47:11 PM
Jesus loves you, Satan hates you, thats all there is to it.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Kiith Somtaaw on September 10, 2004, 07:04:05 PM


No, I don't think so

 :lol:

 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on September 10, 2004, 09:12:47 PM
You would be surprised, Jesus loved you before you were born, Satan Hates you and wants to make you suffer.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Kiith Somtaaw on September 10, 2004, 09:33:58 PM
Nah.

I do not believe.
It's a bunch of baloney!

Made up by people who are afraid of dying.


I am not afraid of death, I only wish my death is an honorable one.
Dying in battle against my enemy.


(never going to happen) Damn politics.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on September 10, 2004, 11:27:18 PM
Kiith, i am not affraid to die.

You can believe what oyu believe, i'll just keep going on what i believe.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 11, 2004, 04:59:27 AM
Repent before it is to late and join the eleventh toe, throw away your false gods and embrace the truth. I can give you further testimonials and each and every single one of them are living proof that the eleventh toe exists.

Ask yourself, are you willing to spend your life living a lie and then to die suffering eternal damnation then to take the chance and live in toe heaven?

---------------

If there was a way to physically manifest sarcasm this world would be just one big ocean...
Which i might add is what the toe has predicted will happen during the second coming of the toe. Judgement day will mean a glorius slaughter of all the non believers by the all-loving toe and then he will lift all the believers into the heavens where they will enjoy toe goodness...

To quote someone "I have a simple question....CAN ANYONE PROVE THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST???? If not than there is no more proof back any of your statements than there is backing mine." just that god in this case is the eleventh toe...

Although at great lengths i think i have gotten my point across quite nicely (http://www.computerpannen.com/cwm/contrib/icw/030.gif)

-----------------
[Serious talk]

Death and the reaction with people can often be cut into four groups.
(take notice to the "often" i am in no way trying to categorise all people)
1: Those that mistakedly think about it once in a while but literally pushes the thought away.
2: Those that think about it but utilises religion to alleviate their worries.
3: Those that think about it alot and get caught in a loop that often leads to a depression or worse.
4: Those that think a lot about it and embrace it for what it is and come to terms with it. (Embrace in this case does not mean suicide or what you may be thinking of)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 11, 2004, 11:03:47 AM
4

death is just the final step in life
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Kiith Somtaaw on September 11, 2004, 12:55:46 PM


There is no emotion; there is peace.

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no passion; there is serenity.

There is no death; there is the Force.

 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 11, 2004, 01:21:56 PM
Jedi lessons

Four Jedi decided to meditate silently without speaking for two weeks. By nightfall on the first day, the candle began to flicker and then went out. The first Jedi said, "Oh, no! The candle is out." The second Jedi said, "Aren't we not suppose to talk?" The third Jedi said, "Why must you two break the silence?" The fourth Jedi laughed and said, "Ha! I'm the only one who didn't speak."   ^_^  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 11, 2004, 03:20:04 PM
lol, but very  (OT)  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 12, 2004, 06:37:30 PM
back to the topic of

THE ALMIGHTY ELEVENTH TOE!!!!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 12, 2004, 08:04:02 PM
beta, you are a toe
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 12, 2004, 08:28:50 PM
I HAVE BECOME ONE WITH MY TOE!!!!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on September 12, 2004, 08:53:41 PM
lmbo, we are going off topic here.

This topic has a just a few different discussions going on, now what happened to them?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: mustang09-06 on September 12, 2004, 09:22:17 PM
The topics went right out the window!!!

 (OT)  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on September 12, 2004, 09:51:09 PM
yes, it's true... my first 3 toes r all the same size. lol.  wow, the 11th toe thing is good.  it brings up a strong point.  we really don't have the greatest proof that God exists, and a lot of what we believe about Him is from what others tell us.  My proof is the Holy Spirit that lives and reigns in my life (the feeling).  That's more than enough. and i don't just wanna believe what others tell me, i like to research it.  wow, beta, u never cease to amaze me.  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on September 12, 2004, 09:54:08 PM
I believe that feeling, as well as the Bible and a good deal of the evidence here on earth to support it. And explain to me this, why are people looking for Jesus's body when the bible tells us that he was resurrected? I don't get it. He was Resurrected, then he ascended to heaven.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 12, 2004, 10:45:18 PM
Garrettsgirl, he will never cease to amaze any of us (with how random he will get)

Have you ever had that feeling like you are being watched, but there is no one around?  I have several times, and I believe it is a gohst come to visit, lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 13, 2004, 05:54:54 AM
Quote
And explain to me this, why are people looking for Jesus's body when the bible tells us that he was resurrected? I don't get it. He was Resurrected, then he ascended to heaven.
Are they :rolleyes:

And then there is also this miniscule group of people that *newsflash* *shriek* don't believe that he did either of those things.

However as usual if (notice the if) they found the bones of "jesus" religion would simply blame it on a conspiracy or that merely his soul was lifted into heaven leaving the corporeal mass behind.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 13, 2004, 08:34:11 AM
If I found the body you all would a) disbeleive it or B) wonder why I was looking for it

religion = manipulative
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: plymoth45 on September 13, 2004, 08:48:51 AM
I still wonder why people are looking, it is pointless, i don't think they are gonig to find anything.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 13, 2004, 08:52:37 AM
it's simple:  humans, by nature, are very curious
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on September 13, 2004, 11:39:13 AM
Quote
Quote
And explain to me this, why are people looking for Jesus's body when the bible tells us that he was resurrected? I don't get it. He was Resurrected, then he ascended to heaven.
Are they :rolleyes:

And then there is also this miniscule group of people that *newsflash* *shriek* don't believe that he did either of those things.

However as usual if (notice the if) they found the bones of "jesus" religion would simply blame it on a conspiracy or that merely his soul was lifted into heaven leaving the corporeal mass behind.
Let me ask you something there Zircon...how would you ever prove it was Jesus Christ? Where to they keep the blood sample of Jesus Christ? So pretty much that throws out your little sarcastic statment.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 13, 2004, 01:52:34 PM
That's what the if is for *sigh*  :yawn:

------------
But to answer scientificly there's no way to secure such a body's identity, perhaps if there was a scroll with his dried blood a hair sample or even his bite marks it might have been possible but from what i can gather there is no evidence that such a being as "jesus" ever existed. (<--- you asked for it :P, and please dont reply with the same old story again "There's the bible! *duh*" )
------------

Perhaps they would dig out some old crypt and find an old skeleton with the missing page of the bible...
You know the one that says "This is a work of fiction. Any similarity to actual people or events is coincidental. No animals were harmed in the production."  :rolleyes:

(kidding but it would certainly be fun to look at the faces of people)
(http://www.computerpannen.com/cwm/cwm/cwm/eek2.gif)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on September 13, 2004, 03:21:21 PM
I don't think the if was there before....anyways, what do you have against religion Zircon? Why do you not believe in God?

Though you don't believe in him, he still loves you though, that doesn't mean that you won't pay for it later after you die (if you don't believe I assume you don't ask for foregiveness for your sins). I pray for you and CK9 that ya'll start believing, but God won't make you believe, so you will just have to start on your own...and if you don't, then I take pitty on you.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 13, 2004, 03:32:06 PM
Quote
I don't think the if was there before....
The post was modified "This post has been edited by Zircon on Sep 13 2004, 10:55 AM"
your second post "Posted: Sep 13 2004, 04:39 PM" and the "if" is even in your quote of me so what exactly do you mean?! (http://www.bonetweb.com/Zircon/smilies/swear.gif)

Quote
anyways, what do you have against religion Zircon? Why do you not believe in God?
oh, lets see. Back up and re-read the thread and it'll give you a tiny hint *thumbs up*
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 13, 2004, 05:31:23 PM
Should I just say what i remember?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 14, 2004, 06:24:32 PM
just found a few quotes I had to post for this:

"So, let's impeach god! I would like to announce my candidacy for the position of god; among other things, I promise to offer true and unquestionable proof of my existence, as the previous holder of the office of 'god' obviously failed to do."
-Rashind

"Flowers are the sweetest things God ever made and forgot to put a soul into."
-Henry Ward Beecher

"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss bank."
-Woody Allen

"'And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways,' Yossarian continued. 'There's nothing mysterious about it, He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else He's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about, a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of Creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatalogical mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?'"
-Joseph Heller, Catch22

"If you can't convince them, confuse them."
-Harry Truman

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-H. L. Mencken

"It bemuses me that the more outspokenly 'Christian' somebody is, the more that person emphasizes the pre-Christian books of the Bible rather than the books that quote Jesus."
-MECowan (on the web)

"I just converted out of Christianity because I saw how ironic it was that god created us as flawed creatures and expects us to thank him for saving us from our flaws."
-CrimeAgainst (on the web)

"All religions, with their gods, demigods, prophets, messiahs and saints, are the product of the fancy and credulity of men who have not yet reached the full development and complete personality of their intellectual powers."
-Mikhail A. Bakunin

found another good one:

"In heaven all the interesting people are missing."
-Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 14, 2004, 11:27:01 PM
okay, I know I'm overposting, but I just have to add this to the discussion:

http://godschool.keenspace.com/d/20040623.html (http://godschool.keenspace.com/d/20040623.html)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on September 15, 2004, 07:43:00 AM
All I get is:

God School
by Griphonix & AntiChryst


at the top of the page and nothing below it. What bullcrap are you posting here?

CK9, you may refuse your creator, but no matter how much you deny his existence, he will still be there all the same.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 15, 2004, 08:44:31 AM
obviously, you didn't allow it to load
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 15, 2004, 10:03:22 AM
As Epicurus put it:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

or, as "Star Trek's" Gene Roddenberry opined:

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

"If the purpose of the flood was to rid the world of evil men, but evil men still exist then did god fail?
God killed every human (supposedly) on Earth through a flood in the effort to rid the world of evil (lets forget about the probable innocent people such as infants that died in this) and yet evil still exists in the world around us.

More than just that, god showed regret (through promising never to do such a thing again, how can an omnipotent being have regret?"

ZeusBD, you may refuse the if, but no matter how much you deny its existence, it will still be there all the same.

Only this time the if is one page back  ^_^  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on September 15, 2004, 10:05:56 AM
ok, those comics rn't funny CK9...Happy "See u at the Pole" Day.  2 day is the day across the world that christians of all kinds gather around their flagpole outside of their school bout 20 minutes before school starts to pray.  mustang, garrett, garrett'sbro, sammyk, and i participated in this anual event.  it's a great way to minister to everyone at school (lots of people walk over and ask what ur doing).  we all had fun and invited our friends to join in.  i'm a dork :P ... hey CK9, what's w/ the post "in heaven all the interesting people are missing." no one can c the interesting people in hell either while they r being sadistically tortured! and there r too interesting people in heaven (don't u think that Jesus is an interesting person?)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 15, 2004, 10:16:00 AM
All the interesting people are according to you boiling away in hell, scientists, Einstein (although his attitude was really bad it would still be nice to meet the odd guy :P ), Aristotle, etc etc...

"See u at the Pole" Never heard of it, i doubt anyone has ever heard of it over here.
Schools and state are separated from religion over here, but then again i do live in the "forsaken" lands  ^_^  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on September 15, 2004, 10:33:36 AM
I did give it time to load.....religion is seperate here to, that's why it was never school sponsered......and there are many interesting people in heaven...And God let's human's make their own choice, so of course there will be some people that don't obey him and sin.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 15, 2004, 10:51:25 AM
Just out of curiosity who exactly are these "interesting" people in heaven?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on September 15, 2004, 10:57:59 AM
depends on who you would consider interesting....I consider Jesus and his disicples interesting.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 15, 2004, 08:48:09 PM
it must be one heck of a long line to see jesus, I mean, just think, of all the people that have died in 2000 years, and everyone in heaven wants to see him

and I thought the mosh pits of a concert were crouded, going to see jesus DAMN!!!!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 15, 2004, 11:13:43 PM
Garrettsgirl, I find it very funny, thinking about Thor being that hyper, lol

I find philosophers interesting, and the best ones in history are in Limbo (which, by the way, is where the Dante's Inferno quiz places me, lol)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 17, 2004, 10:27:10 PM
oops, sorry garretsgirl, wrong page:

http://godschool.keenspace.com/d/20040804.html (http://godschool.keenspace.com/d/20040804.html)

http://godschool.keenspace.com/ (http://godschool.keenspace.com/)

 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on September 19, 2004, 09:59:30 PM
well, i don't think that those comics r funny (just my own opinion). well, now u have heard of "c y at the pole" day and now u can spread the news all u want (whether ur saying how pathetic u think we r or just saying ur proud of us u r b/c we went all out 4 what we believe in). i had fun doin it and in no the people there had fun too. :). well, that's all folks. lol. i'm a dork

Love u all in Christ (i'm gona get some interesting commemnts on this one i hope),
ME
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 20, 2004, 08:43:43 AM
oh well, I thought you just ent that oe becayuse satan got in for drawing a pony once (I personaly thought that was funny).  As soon as my head stops pounding I'll read the rest of your post and see if I have any "interesting commemnts" to give
 
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on September 20, 2004, 10:21:51 AM
actually, that was the only one i thought was funny (the one w/ satan and the pic). but other than that, the other ones i read were terrible...lol, ur head was pounding.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on September 20, 2004, 11:38:34 AM
I get the main page to show up, but nothing after that.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 20, 2004, 07:25:25 PM
well zues, some firewalls prevent some coding...

BTW, garrettsgirl (now an ironic name IMHO) I plead the fifth to your gathering
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Luweeg64 on September 20, 2004, 10:12:37 PM
Well if science is going to prove religion wrong, tell me. How did life originate in the first place?

There has had to have been some outside sources, just like when God put the big bang into motion.

lol big bang lol it's sounds funny
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 20, 2004, 10:35:11 PM
not as funny as a screen I saw the other day: Big Toot

How do we know your god isn't the same as the A.I. in The Matrix? If he exists, let him prove it to me right now, show me some sign that tells me I really should have faith in him/her (remember, it was a man who wrote the bible, and they wanted women to remain subserviant at the time)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 21, 2004, 05:07:58 AM
Quote
Well if science is going to prove religion wrong, tell me. How did life originate in the first place?

There has had to have been some outside sources, just like when God put the big bang into motion.

lol big bang lol it's sounds funny
While i guess i could write a summary of every way life could have began but i wont because i dont have the time or ambition to try and explain it to someone that will place their hands upon their head and scream "lalalalalalala"
(Not necessarily pointing at luweeg but judging from the rest of the thread most people react that way)

Quote
Plasma Blobs
By David Cohen

Physicists have created blobs of gaseous plasma that can grow, replicate and communicate - fulfilling most of the traditional requirements for biological cells. Without inherited material they cannot be described as alive, but the researchers believe these curious spheres may offer a radical new explanation for how life began.

Most biologists think living cells arose out of a complex and lengthy evolution of chemicals that took millions of years, beginning with simple molecules through amino acids, primitive proteins and finally forming an organised structure. But if Mircea Sanduloviciu and his colleagues at Cuza University in Romania are right, the theory may have to be completely revised. They say cell-like self-organisation can occur in a few microseconds.

The researchers studied environmental conditions similar to those that existed on the Earth before life began, when the planet was enveloped in electric storms that caused ionised gases called plasmas to form in the atmosphere.

They inserted two electrodes into a chamber containing a low-temperature plasma of argon - a gas in which some of the atoms have been split into electrons and charged ions. They applied a high voltage to the electrodes, producing an arc of energy that flew across the gap between them, like a miniature lightning strike.

Sanduloviciu says this electric spark caused a high concentration of ions and electrons to accumulate at the positively charged electrode, which spontaneously formed spheres (Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol 18, p 335). Each sphere had a boundary made up of two layers - an outer layer of negatively charged electrons and an inner layer of positively charged ions.

Trapped inside the boundary was an inner nucleus of gas atoms. The amount of energy in the initial spark governed their size and lifespan. Sanduloviciu grew spheres from a few micrometres up to three centimetres in diameter.

Split in two

A distinct boundary layer that confines and separates an object from its environment is one of the four main criteria generally used to define living cells. Sanduloviciu decided to find out if his cells met the other criteria: the ability to replicate, to communicate information, and to metabolise and grow.

He found that the spheres could replicate by splitting into two. Under the right conditions they also got bigger, taking up neutral argon atoms and splitting them into ions and electrons to replenish their boundary layers.

Finally, they could communicate information by emitting electromagnetic energy, making the atoms within other spheres vibrate at a particular frequency. The spheres are not the only self-organising systems to meet all of these requirements. But they are the first gaseous "cells".

Sanduloviciu even thinks they could have been the first cells on Earth, arising within electric storms. "The emergence of such spheres seems likely to be a prerequisite for biochemical evolution," he says.

Temperature trouble

That view is "stretching the realms of possibility," says Gregoire Nicolis, a physical chemist at the University of Brussels. In particular, he doubts that biomolecules such as DNA could emerge at the temperatures at which the plasma balls exist.

However, Sanduloviciu insists that although the spheres require high temperature to form, they can survive at lower temperatures. "That would be the sort of environment in which normal biochemical interactions occur."

But perhaps the most intriguing implications of Sanduloviciu's work are for life on other planets. "The cell-like spheres we describe could be at the origin of other forms of life we have not yet considered," he says. Which means our search for extraterrestrial life may need a drastic re-think. There could be life out there, but not as we know it.

Quote
UV Light sparks life

By Shaoni Bhattacharya

Ultra-violet light, long thought to be an impediment to the early formation of long organic molecules, may in fact hold the key to the origin of life, according to a new study.

Intense UV rays from a young Sun bombarded the early Earth and were thought likely to destroy any exposed organic molecules. But a new mathematical model implies the radiation actually helped select out the molecular seeds of life.

The earliest life on Earth is widely thought to have been based on RNA, the chemical cousin of DNA. RNA is made of subunits called nucleotides, which link together to form long polymer chains.

Certain components of RNA absorb UV light and act as "protectors", thereby giving it a survival advantage over other molecules, says Armen Mulkidjanian. Mulkidjanian, a biophysicist at Osnabrück University in Germany, led the team that developed the theoretical model.

"Simple RNA molecules can evolve under certain conditions - this is a well-developed field. But the question left is: how do you get the first long enough RNA polymer?" says Mulkidjanian. "Our model offers some physically plausible explanation of how long RNA polymers could emerge."

"This paper is important because it attacks that crucial problem," says Michael Yarus, an RNA world expert at the University of Colorado at Boulder. "If this problem could really be solved in a way that people agreed on, the RNA world would become a fact rather than a speculation."

Peculiar properties

Life on Earth is thought to have evolved about 3.7 billion years ago, when there was no protective ozone layer encasing the planet and UV radiation was 100 times more intense than today.

The nucleotides that make up RNA have three components - a sugar, a phosphate and nitrogen-containing base. "And these bases have very peculiar properties of being extremely efficient at quenching UV light," says Mulkidjanian, protecting the sugar and phosphate components which form the spine of the chain.

The team fed data on the photochemistry of various organic molecules into a computer model designed to simulate the effects of UV light on stability. "The effect was very pronounced in RNA," he says. In the presence of strong UV light, RNA was much more likely to form long chains than other molecules.

"The suggested mechanism turns the high UV levels on primordial Earth from a perceived obstacle to the origin of life into the selective factor that, in fact, might have driven the whole process," write the team in BMC Evolutionary Biology.

The UV light could even encourage polymerisation, adds Mulkidjanian. There is a small probability that RNA bases hit by UV light may be energised for a split second to a state where they can chemically react with another molecule to form another link in the chain, he says.

Yarus told New Scientist that, although the study was theoretical, it might provide a "fantastic service" in stimulating experimental work to explore how RNA polymers might have formed in a young, UV-illuminated world.

Journal reference: BMC Evolutionary Biology (May issue)

Quote
No moon, no life on Earth.

By Anil Ananthaswamy

Without the Moon, there would have been no life on Earth.

Four billion years ago, when life began, the Moon orbited much closer to us than it does now, causing massive tides to ebb and flow every few hours. These tides caused dramatic fluctuations in salinity around coastlines which could have driven the evolution of early DNA-like biomolecules.

This hypothesis, which is the work of Richard Lathe, a molecular biologist at Pieta Research in Edinburgh, UK, also suggests that life could not have begun on Mars.

According to one theory for the origin of life, self-replicating molecules such as DNA or RNA emerged when small precursor molecules in the primordial "soup" polymerised into long strands. These strands served as templates for more precursor molecules to attach along the templates, creating double-stranded polymers similar to DNA.

But the whole theory fails without some way of breaking apart the double strands to keep the process going, says Lathe. It would take some external force to dissociate the two strands, he says.

Doubling up

As an analogy, he points to PCR, the technique used to amplify DNA in the lab. DNA is cycled between two temperatures in the presence of appropriate enzymes.

At the lower temperature of about 50 °C, single DNA strands act as templates for synthesising complementary strands. At the higher temperature of about 100 °C, the double strands break apart, doubling the number of molecules. Lower the temperature, and the synthesis starts again. Using this process, a single DNA molecule can be converted into a trillion identical copies in just 40 cycles.

Lathe believes that thanks to the Moon, something similar happened during Earth's early years. Most researchers agree that the Moon formed five billion years ago from debris blasted off Earth in a giant impact.

A billion years later when life is thought to have arisen, the Moon was still much closer to us than it is now. That, plus the Earth's much more rapid rotation, led to tidal cycles every two to six hours, with tides extending several hundred kilometres inland, says Lathe. Coastal areas therefore saw dramatic cyclical changes in salinity, and Lathe believes this led to repeated association and dissociation of double-stranded molecules similar to DNA.

When the massive tides rolled in, the salt concentration was very low. Double-stranded DNA breaks apart under such conditions because electrically charged phosphate groups on each strand repel each other.

But when the tides went out, precursor molecules and precipitated salt would have been present in high concentrations. This would have encouraged double-stranded molecules to form, since high salt concentrations neutralise DNA's phosphate charges, allowing strands to stick together.

Unrelenting cycles

These unrelenting saline cycles would have amplified molecules such as DNA in a process similar to PCR, says Lathe. "The tidal force is absolutely important, because it provides the energy for association and dissociation [of polymers]."

Many researchers do not believe DNA and RNA were the first replicating molecules. Graham Cairns-Smith of the University of Glasgow, UK, thinks much simpler "genetic" material formed first, from the crystallisation of clay minerals.

But he says Lathe's idea deserves attention. "Whatever the replicating entities were that started the evolutionary process, it would be significant that they lived in an environment in which the conditions were changing."

If the theory is right, life could not have evolved on Mars, says Lathe. Phobos, the larger of Mars's two Moons, is so small that the tidal forces it generates are just one per cent of those generated by our Moon. "Even if there was water on Mars, life could not have evolved there because these polymers could not have replicated," he says.

Journal reference: Icarus (vol 168, p 18)

Quote
Asteroid impact craters could cradle life

An enormous asteroid might have killed the dinosaurs, but the craters left behind by such impacts may become burgeoning hotspots for life on Earth, and possibly even Mars, says a UK researcher.

Charles Cockell at the British Antarctic Survey presented data on rocks - thriving with microbial life - found in the Haugton Crater in the Canadian Arctic to the British Association for the Advancement of Science Festival in Exeter, UK, on Thursday.

The crater is the depression caused by an impact event 23 million years ago. The energy of the event is estimated at 100 million times the size of the Hiroshima atomic bomb.

“People usually associate impact events with destruction. But asteroids or comets might actually be good for life,” says Cockell.


Translucent rocks

Between 1998 and 2004, Cockell and his colleagues gathered rock specimens from the 24-kilometre-wide crater on Devon Island.

They found that much of the dark or opaque minerals, such as feldspar, had vaporised during the initial explosion. This left a several-centimetre thickness of near-translucent rocks, riddled with holes.

Back in the lab, they looked at the samples under both traditional and scanning electron microscopes and found them to be packed with microbes. Photosynthetic bacteria had colonised the translucent upper layer of the rocks, absorbing sunlight through clear silicate deposits.

As well as nurturing present day microbes, says Cockell, impact craters might even be responsible for the beginnings of life on Earth. The heat would have lasted for about 10,000 years and could have provided enough energy for simple organic compounds to form into more complex ones, such as amino acids, possibly even forming pre-biotic molecules.

“The good thing about a hole in the ground is that water seeps into it. So you’ve got water, organics and heat all in the same place, which is good for the evolution of life on Earth,” says Cockell.

The results suggest that meteorite craters may be one of the best places to look for life on other planets. Craters cover the surface of Mars, and there is evidence of liquid water in the red planet’s past, making it one of the most likely places for extraterrestrial life in the solar system.

Cockell also suggests that impact events may have temporarily melted any frozen water on Saturn's moon, Titan, potentially giving life a chance to thrive.

Life began in deep space http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-01d.html (http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-01d.html)

Life began on the ocean floor
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2541393.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2541393.stm)

While these are just a few of the many they are all viable theories.

To summarise "life" that is placed on the holy pedestal isn't that magnificent at all, as long as the basic materials are there life is unavoidable as it will "become" either you want it or not.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 21, 2004, 08:44:30 AM
so life is kind of like one of the main theories when it comes o time travel: there will never be an inconsistacy in time that coul prevent you from leaving in the first place
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 21, 2004, 09:32:41 AM
Kinda like that yes ^_^  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 21, 2004, 09:37:19 PM
very nice, I expecially liked the one on the plasma cells, I might reshurch those further
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 21, 2004, 11:06:35 PM
Beta, do not attempt to play god, many people in history have tried, many have been killed.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: ZeusBD on September 22, 2004, 11:13:45 AM
awww...you care for Beta that much CK9?

Zircon....that was a very long post...I think I might wanna take a nap now.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 22, 2004, 04:33:39 PM
copy and paste can be mightyer than the sword

well the reason that the other people have been killd when they have tried to play god is because they were not imortal, I plan to allivate that little defect
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 23, 2004, 08:28:21 AM
but beta, "Without mortality life looses all manner of meaning and purpose."

and Zues, no, I just don't want to have beta trying to rule over me, lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: BlackBox on September 26, 2004, 04:33:39 PM
Quote
To summarise "life" that is placed on the holy pedestal isn't that magnificent at all, as long as the basic materials are there life is unavoidable as it will "become" either you want it or not.
so in other words you're trying to say that if you take and mix carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and sulfur that you'll get life forms? not true.

Miller and Urey tried it about 50 years ago. Yes they did get cell like things, and some basic amino acids, but these still were not living.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on September 26, 2004, 04:49:56 PM
Quote
so in other words you're trying to say that if you take and mix carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and sulfur that you'll get life forms? not true.
That including sunlight, water and heat and you'll (eventually might) get the first step in a lifeform yes.

(Just waits for that old lame argument to pop up that says "well you haven't yet turned a rabbit into a lion and i have yet to see a rock turn into an eagle (http://www.bonetweb.com/Zircon/smilies/crazy.gif) " gibberish)

And dont even start with that other crap because it wont happen in five minutes, give it atleast 10000 years and you might have something... or not.

(Nitpicks: 10000 is merely for the pre-biotic molecules)

Quote
Yes they did get cell like things, and some basic amino acids, but these still were not living.

The carbon arranged themselves in organic compounds yes, while i can agree that those are merely "structures" and not living organisms they are one step on the way.

And by 1961 Juan Oro found that amino acids could be made from hydrogen cyanide and ammonia. The amounts of adenine it created is yet another step that would have to be incorporated with the organic compounds.

That plus a lot of other compounds eventually spit out life forms given enough time and the right circumstances. You have to have all pieces of the puzzle, not merely a small cornerstone that you showed.

(It is worth to note that Miller and Ureys experiment was flawed in a way because the composition they used for their experiment is not true for the young Earth, however their early experiment has created a blossom of more detailed and correct theories/facts/experiments and still remains in school books more as an "memorial" for the search in the origins of life.)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on September 29, 2004, 08:05:13 AM
well, i haven't been on to read this 4 a while, and i am SUPRISED! wow, u guys have been busy (Beta trying to rule the world and Z using science to prove every statement made in this topic false).  well, i never though if u took a bunch of elements, heat, water, sun light, and thousands of years and put them in a container, cells would form... kwul. just goes to prove how great God made the universe, didn't He...  hey beta, y do u want to rule the world by being immortal when u can be incharge of many people by being a follower of Christ and leading them to Him through Him... just a thought...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 29, 2004, 08:46:58 AM
because then he would feel like a servant, lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on September 29, 2004, 10:05:47 AM
but in the end people would do the same back and repay him (even if they didn't, he'd b known as a great guy who helped all in need)...ok, may b not so drastic as that, but along those lines
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 29, 2004, 05:49:57 PM
If beta did acheive that, I would be with the resistance, ol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 29, 2004, 06:04:32 PM
ill figure out what ill do when I get there
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on September 30, 2004, 10:12:34 AM
CK9, i love u (not like that, ur just hilarious). as sammyk or i would say in school "ur hot" ... lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on September 30, 2004, 08:38:44 PM
and I have the persionality that most people hate lol

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on September 30, 2004, 10:53:37 PM
Quote
CK9, i love u (not like that, ur just hilarious). as sammyk or i would say in school "ur hot" ... lol
 :blink: now I'm scared...

I'm found funny yet I do not try to be, lol

BTW, I still say you would be trying to stay away if you saw me in real life (said it in different words before)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on October 01, 2004, 09:17:03 AM
nah, we all love u 2 beta... lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: xfir on October 01, 2004, 01:19:38 PM
Has this thread followed a topic?

Or is it turning into a junk thread?
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on October 01, 2004, 04:47:47 PM
well sence religion encompses pretty much everything, I dont see how its possible to get off topic in this thread lol
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on October 05, 2004, 07:57:52 AM
beta has a point, religion has to do w/ EVERYTHING... there fore, if we talk bout food, sex (me opposing it), music, etc., then religion is related to each topic... but we haven't had a real debate for a while, so lets debate on sex b 4 marriage.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on October 05, 2004, 11:06:31 AM
Quote
so lets debate on sex b 4 marriage.

If you had brought that up 80-120 years ago when religion was still big over here someone might have cared... :rolleyes:

(above statement does not mean that Swedes are sex maniacs. Religion is not necessary in constraining people which some believe.)
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: xfir on October 05, 2004, 02:53:11 PM
How bout we all revert to paganism? That way you aren't concerned with sex before marriage, as according to paganism, the only way to connect to god is via sex.

---

I am not religious. I doubt I ever will be. Don't try to convert me, it won't work.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on October 05, 2004, 05:03:03 PM
I second x's idea!
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on October 06, 2004, 07:45:18 AM
that'd b a kwul religion... how bout aztecs who thought the only way to God was via beer and drugs and group sex (not sure bout the last one, but i think so) naw, not worried bout much, just in havin a good debate bout sumfin.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on October 06, 2004, 09:34:24 AM
umm... The aztec people worshipped hundreds of gods and they believed that in order to transgress into the upper "realm" sacrifice of human life was needed and rituals involving mucho grande pain...
In other words massive torture they inflicted upon themselves and which others helped them finish when they were unable to proceed further due to exhaustion.

The only "aphrodisiacs" they had was the “Theobroma cacao” (Theobroma = food of gods) in other words... Chocolate. And an alcoholic beverage called octli.

I doubt they would use the beverage in their "holy" rituals as it would dampen the pain they recieved. Which was the goal, to receive pain...

*shrugs* and i wont go into detail about what they did afterwards to the dead body but it involves hearts and cannibalism :mellow:

Why do i know this? I have no clue :P  
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on October 06, 2004, 09:25:23 PM
let's go back to the Ancient Egyptian days :)  For you religious people, you can go to the rein of the pharo who instituted monotheism and remember that the ankh is said to be the original cross.
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on October 07, 2004, 12:58:55 PM
wow, i didn't no that the wierd lookin cross w/ the loop at the top was called an ankh and was the original cross. kwul... learn sumfin new everyday
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on October 07, 2004, 06:08:04 PM
What else would it be called?  The ankh is the symbol of life
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on October 07, 2004, 09:41:03 PM
but like, i didn't no what the ankh was till garrett told me... this happens a lot considering i'm an idiot.

then mayb it wasn't the aztecs, but i do remember learning bout some ancient religious group that did that stuff...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: CK9 on October 07, 2004, 10:31:51 PM
lol, anyway...I would try to teach thm to get more detail in their art
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on October 08, 2004, 10:17:56 AM
i wonder what i would do if i went back in time and was livin w/ the Jews?...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Zircon on October 08, 2004, 12:29:35 PM
You'd probably wear an old smelly cloth of some kind and slave away on either some farm or the market, you wouldn't have many rights and would probably die exhausted (both body and mind, remember they had lots of kids back then and 6-8 pregnancies considerably lowers the health of the female body) at an age around 40-50.

If you had misplaced a wink at another male you would probably be stoned to death.

I'm not known for my optimism  :rolleyes:

But then again, you could be "sold" to a wealthy male and live as one of his wives (depends on specific time period) which would be considerably better...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: gpgarrettboast on October 08, 2004, 12:36:54 PM
This thread needs cleaning...
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Kiith Somtaaw on October 08, 2004, 08:51:43 PM

*Kiith get out his Domestic Cleaning Cart*

*Scrubs the php*
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: Betaray on October 13, 2004, 07:35:25 PM
I am a pround Agnostic

Im not Athiest, I just cannot accept somthing from faith alone
Title: Do you believe...
Post by: jesusfreak06 on October 15, 2004, 07:46:42 AM
at least u no what u believe or no that u can't believe... i'm so confuzzled bout what to do in my current sitiation...  but hey, at least i no that God loves me (that's the only thing im optomistic bout)

z, at least if i had lived then w/ the Jews, i would've known what was expected of me. i also never new that it's not good for a women's body to produce that many kids... my guardians mom had 8 children and one of my friends is the youndest of 6 kids (she's 16 and her mom's like 60 sumfin). learn sumfin new everyday   :mellow: