Author Topic: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?  (Read 14802 times)

Offline ZeusBD

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« on: March 27, 2004, 09:57:27 AM »
Intel  (thumbsdown)

AMD  (thumbsup)  
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Offline Kiith Somtaaw

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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2004, 10:01:59 AM »
(OT) Your not one of them are you

I feel Intel Are Better!



Anyway... I have many a game, So if you want to play a certain game, give me a shout because I may have the game to.
 

Offline ZeusBD

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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2004, 10:20:19 AM »
Quote
(OT) Your not one of them are you

I feel Intel Are Better!
What do you mean "Your not one of them are you"?

I think that Intel's are better for regular app's, but I like AMD for gaming. You more often than not get a better chip with AMD. Anyways, it is all personnal preference.

I yes we shall get back on topic.

Either way, still a very very nice system Kiith  (thumbsup)  
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Offline Kiith Somtaaw

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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2004, 02:02:22 PM »
I agree, and the Intel Pentium 4 3.2 GHz Processor Is also excellent for Gaming!







 

Offline xamlit

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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2004, 09:30:20 PM »
Quote
Your not one of them are you

I feel Intel Are Better!


 
Wow... incredible.. not to be OT but I completely agree with Zeus.. I am an AMD fanboy at heart.. I have one question. If AMD is worse than Intel then why does AMD's top processor which runs at 2.6ghz fight neck to neck with Intels top processor which runs at 3.4ghz. Who do you think has the better design and is more effecient clock cycle for clock cycle...

Proof: http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040318/athlon-fx53-24.html





Ah.... the silence is deafening!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 09:30:37 PM by xamlit »

Offline Kiith Somtaaw

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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2004, 10:33:05 PM »
How can you be sure the Results are true?

They could be falsified  ;)

All the New Processors are Powerful,
I'm sure they will handle all new games for years to come.


Anyway AMD gives me a headache  <_<

Don't Ask!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 10:34:56 PM by Kiith Somtaaw »

Offline CK9

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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2004, 11:31:50 PM »
*stares at kiith for a half an hour then states in a paranoid voice: "Youre one of them!"*

I have to agree with kiith on this, Intel processors are better (comparing in school computers, which you all know lag like crazy on their own!)
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2004, 07:55:47 AM »
I'd be willing to bet the school computers are using Intel processors.

Intel processors are not better at all. They are a cheap business class processor with a worse architecture than the AMD. (And as far as expense, if you know what sites to buy AMD processors from you can get a processor that's a lot better than most Intels for around $75-100). AMD designed their processors for intensive multimedia stuff (like running 3d modeling apps, gaming, etc). Just because a processor's clock speed is higher (and I have a feeling some of you don't know what clock speed means?) doesn't make it faster. It's how many clock ticks it takes to execute an instruction, and AMD processors require less ticks per instruction as compared to Intel processors.
Clock speed also isn't only what makes the processor better. The best measure is the giga/teraflops of the processor (FLOPs = floating point operations per second)

And I'm sure the results aren't falsified. The results are from unbiased people that want to show it like it is.

I'm for AMD as well.... Intel just has a better hold on consumers that don't know a lot about computers (and in their case, it may never matter because they may never fully stress the processor)

I'm typing this on an old intel Pentium2, and yes, its a piece of crap. (It's not a good gauge cuz it's old.. but I'm sure that an AMD processor running at the same clock speed would outdo this processor)

Offline Zircon

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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2004, 08:06:26 AM »
As op2hacker says, trying to compare a 3,4 ghz p4 and a 2,6 AMD (clockwise) doesn't work because of the different architectures.

op2hacker is incorrect in one thing though, AMD series processors are not good at "3d modeling apps".

You want the highest speed in games ? Get an AMD.
You want the highest speed in ordinary applications ? Intel succeds in many tests but not all.

You want good performance (but not best) in applications games and 3d apps? Get an intel.

You want the best performance you can get for 3d modelling apps? Get an intel p4 extreme edition plus an NVIDIA Quadro (or softmod a geforce into one).
« Last Edit: June 10, 2004, 03:23:36 PM by Zircon »

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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2004, 10:01:15 AM »
My school uses Intel.. I forget what the Net. Admin said, but I think it was along the lines of "Intel are better at doing what these computers do: Document editing."

Offline Kramy

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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2004, 12:39:06 PM »
Well, I'm not going to argue, but I'll just sumarize my experiences with intel:

1) Buy old pentium. When processor dies, it corrupts all harddrives. :(

2) Buy p2. When processor dies, it corrupts C drive. :(

3) Buy p3. It died in 2 years....

4) Buy AMD Athlon - still going.

------------------------------------
1) My uncle's pentium's(P and PII) have fried twice, and he's had to get whole new comps. I wonder why he doesn't go for AMD?

2) My mom's office computer is a K6, and is still running fine. No problems. :)

Now maybe I just got all the bad luck in intel's processors, but it happened, so now I NEVER use them.(and hey, maybe all that bad-intel-luck coming my way is the reason they work so well for you?(and vice versa, since the AMD's work great for me :) ))

 
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Offline Oprime

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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2004, 12:40:18 PM »
hmm? I belive that some of you guys are confused. Most 3d work is done by the Graphics Hardware. To say that it's the processor doing all the work is stupid <_< .  Most of the time it's the CPU that's holding back the GPU/VPU. The new Geforce and Radeon cards are gonna have more transisters then the Pentium 4. I really hate it when I see these Intel vs AMD arguments.  Have any of you seen a school computer with a Geforce 6800 or a ATI X800? Plus, anyways without Graphics hardware AMD processors do better because of the more powerful FPU.
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Offline xamlit

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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2004, 01:05:36 PM »
Sorry for adding gas to the flames. I just switched to this forum after posting at forums.amd.com...
 

Offline Zircon

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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2004, 02:13:51 PM »
Quote
hmm? I belive that some of you guys are confused. Most 3d work is done by the Graphics Hardware. To say that it's the processor doing all the work is stupid <_< .  Most of the time it's the CPU that's holding back the GPU/VPU.
True, But not for 3d modelling applications.

Offline CK9

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« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2004, 03:18:46 PM »
Hacker, I don't think you read my wording correctally...
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2004, 04:55:30 PM »
most 3d modeling apps have an option to let you use hardware acceleration. It's just not on by default.

Also - the code for these apps isn't extremely different from other things.

All of them have to use basic sets of instructions like MOV, PUSH, POP, CALL, JMP, CMP, ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV, RET, etc.

 

Offline Zircon

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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2004, 05:39:52 PM »
As for graphics cards they are only used for example in the viewport with reflective surfaces or cG effects (opengl, directx)

When you want to render something the graphics card has nothing to do with it and you wouldn't want it to for that matter either. The only cards that has the possibility to help in the rendering process is NVIDIAs Quadro, their new GELATO or a softmodded GeForce.

Nvidias Quadro and gelato has extra pipelines plus hardware support for advanced raytracing alghoritms.

As for your set of instructions, Is there a single application on this planet that does not use those  :angry: Go one step higher in the ladder, the mathematics used in 3d modelling software isnt very basic.

Care to give an example of a 3d modelling application that isn't already using the cpu and ram to the fullest op2hacker? (in other words an application with even that kind of function (not counting viewport acceleration and Quadro, gelato) )
It's quite strange mentioning hardware acceleration in this case.
I guess you could run the viewport in software mode, but it would not be pleasant.

As for AMD Intel in 3d modelling applications, ever heard of SSL (2, 3), or MMX?
Or HyperThreading, a 40% percent increase in rendering times when it comes to radiosity(brazil, light tracer)!
At ground level all are the same but there are so much more to it, and short in short AMD arent as good as intel for 3d modelling apps. There's not much more to say.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2004, 05:54:22 PM by Zircon »

Offline Kramy

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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2004, 10:58:50 AM »
www.anim8or.com

Anim8or: Free 3D modeller that uses open gl. Not sure what it uses for rendering.

It was annoying since when I originally found it(years ago) I had a voodoo, which didn't support open gl. :P
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Offline Oprime

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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2004, 12:45:04 PM »
I wasn't really talking about 3d rendering programs ;) . But, anyways when it comes to games AMD is better at those things. The most I can think of for Intel processors is doing work in cubicals that is unless it's a Xeon which is meant more for servers, 3D MODELING!!!, and other processor intensive things :P. I've never heard of a Professional 3D artist making models on anything less then a dual G4 or dual Xeon. Unless.... they were cheap :ph34r:. Who cares about Hyper Threading because when you have Dual Processors and a Modeling Program that is optimized for them there would be no need for it.  
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Offline Zircon

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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2004, 01:47:42 PM »
Quote
I've never heard of a Professional 3D artist making models on anything less then a dual G4 or dual Xeon. Unless.... they were cheap :ph34r:. Who cares about Hyper Threading because when you have Dual Processors and a Modeling Program that is optimized for them there would be no need for it.
And what is exactly a professional 3d artist. Not every studio has a gigantic budget for things.

Take Kaze (animated movie) for example, one person + 6 months + lightwave and no dual g4 or xeon for that matter. Isnt he a "professional" ?

Or any other kind of studio, they dont throw those things around like candy.

And who cares about hyperthreading, right about everyone because the boost it gives in raytracing engines is tremendous. And dual processor "are" hyper threading to start with.

Also what kind of "optimised" modelling program, there are basicly just 4-5 big softwares used by companies internationally Maya, 3dsmax and lightwave etc...
They dont use some kind of super duper software for movies.

Modern studios are built like this, The artists sit on "normal" pc's that are not so overmighty, the pcs are however linked to a processor farm by for example backburner. The "processor farm" can wary from using spare resources from other pcs in the building or dedicated server farms. They often use a mix of the two.
SGI hardware is going down, in other words dying because it isnt profitable and it's cumbersome. Macs are also dying out on that front, i'll quote myself.

"Macs are mainly used for 2d rendering and manipulation these days, more and more companies have switched over to intel based solutions...

They didn't use macs for 3d work before either, studios like Industrial Light & Magic, Sony Pictures Imageworks, and Pixar invested in SGI hardware but has as said switched to intel based solutions...

Macs still rule the land of 2d and editing though... "

This reminds me http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=641
How is the movie coming along, selfdestruct, op2patriot ?

--------------

The point was to point out that graphic cards play a minor role in 3d modelling and that intel processors were better meant for that kind of work. ? The end ?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2004, 02:10:25 PM by Zircon »

Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2004, 03:27:50 PM »
Quote
Go one step higher in the ladder, the mathematics used in 3d modelling software isnt very basic.

Um.... I don't know if you've seen the equations used, and also the instructions the computer does.

calculating transforms:
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/3dgraphics7.htm

In basic algebra you find out that every complicated mathematical operation can be done using only 4 operations.
It all uses +, -, *, and /. (sine and cosine are basic mathematical formulas. They aren't even instructions anyway. The only mathematical instructions that can be done are ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV, and MOD. (There are floating point instructions like FMUL, FDIV but still, those don't do anything more than add subtract multiply and divide).

And most newer graphics boards handle transforms instead of the CPU handling them, as well as rasterization (applying textures to the wireframes).

Offline Oprime

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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2004, 03:43:17 PM »
Processor farm  :huh:? Are you talking about Clusters? I can set up 1 of my schools 30 client P3 1Ghz labs with a Beowolf cluster for a day and not spend any money :D. Game companies make their own Modeling software and renderers so they can get the most out of the gaming hardware or what ever they are trying to do. They do that so that they save money and also get maximum performance.

Dual processors arn't as expensive as you may think. A person can buy a dual P4 Xeon comp for as little as $2000 for example Dual P4 xeon. About hyper threading, hmm, ohh yes, it's just like having Dual Processors just slower :P. Plus havn't you ever heard of financing.  My bother gave away his  $2500 Sony Vaio (he didn't give to me  :ph34r:  ) and he isn't 1 of those kind of people that earn $80,000 a year. Plus, there are also alternative processors that support SMP like the Via C3 Nehemiah (not the most powerful processor yes) and it only costs about $30 per processor.

 The pentium 4 is clunkyer then the Pentium 3 which I bet if it was clocked at 2Ghz would be faster then a pentium 4 at the same clockrate. The Pentium 4's clockrate is only at 3.4Ghz so that normal people would think it's better because it says 3.4Ghz. The Athon64 FX is clocked at 2.4Ghz and can match the 3.4Ghz pentium 4 even when it's not in it's native OS. The clock speed on P4's are only used for propaganda to get more customers. One more thing... A local Non-profit organization called New Urban Arts just got a brand new G4 that cost them like $4000 and they are a non profit organization (not much money). There are 2 many cheapskates in this world for sure :yawn:.
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Offline Zircon

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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2004, 04:49:26 PM »
Quote
Um.... I don't know if you've seen the equations used, and also the instructions the computer does.
You're just twisting my words, you know what i mean with basic.

I said they were all the same at ground level but they they get more complex when put together. I mean with that kind of reasoning you would find 1+1 as simple as quantum physics. They're still built on the same laws deep down but the difference in difficulty is much bigger.

And both of you have wandered into the lands of "ordinary" 3d graphics the kind that uses glide and direct x. They are two completely different things.

In 3d modelling as in rendering a scene within 3dsmax has absolutely nothing to do with a graphics card. 3d engines as used in games try to imitate real physics. Programs like 3dsmax make it real.

That's why a 3d engine can blast out 30 frames per second while it takes my computer 5 hours to render a 40 second scene.

*sigh* End line, graphics cards has nothing to do with 3d modelling programs (example 3dsmax) and intel based processors are better at handling that kind of work (again 3dsmax not ingame engines) because of their "higher" based alghoritms. It all cames back to this, it's true, the world agrees to it, tests show it. And anyone with even basic knowledge of 3dmodelling programs (again 3dsmax) know it.

Outpost_prime:  Processor farm ?

Yes, processor farms it's almost the same as clusters just that processor farms is used (the word) a lot more often.

Quote
Game companies make their own Modeling software and renderers so they can get the most out of the gaming hardware or what ever they are trying to do. They do that so that they save money and also get maximum performance.

Again, you're talking about game !engines! not 3d modelling programs like 3dsmax, maya, lightwave, cinema 4d. Big difference. Get it ?

As for the rest, yeah you can get it for 2000 dollars, that isn't very cheap to me or for a newly started company.  So you mean the pentium 4 clockspeeds is just propaganda and that a overclocked p3 beats it.  :mellow:
« Last Edit: June 13, 2004, 04:56:21 PM by Zircon »

Offline Oprime

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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2004, 08:32:01 PM »
Quote
The pentium 4 is clunkyer then the Pentium 3 which I bet if it was clocked at 2Ghz would be faster then a pentium 4 at the same clockrate.

I never said anything about overclocking. All I said was if Intel made a Pentium 3 chip that was clocked at 2Ghz that it would be faster. The propaganda also extends to AMDs ratings as well. Would a innocent football jock go for the higher number or a lower number with the same performance and a cheaper price, hmm, the higher number :P. Intel knows this and use it every day to grab hold of the market and make lots of money.

When I was talking about modeling programs I didn't mean that it was only for a game or a movie. What if the game team needed some graphics for marketing I don't think that they would like to pay royalties just because they decided to take the easy route and use off the shelf software. Do you think that a multi-million dollar project would care how much it costs to make their own software? Games like Final Fantasy XI took years to make and lots of money.

Banks have lots of money they would like to share and if you have a project that even looks like it'll make a lot of money they will invest in your project. Can you buy a car with $30,000 in cash? Do you think that starting companys uses their own money? No, they don't because they don't have that kind of cash. So to get it they look for investors. That's what banks do with the money you put in there. They use it to make money off of your money and back in the form interest. If you or whoever so happen to make the final project with less money then what was invested in to you you can keep it or return it. Only after you make lots of money and pay your debt that you can start using your own money. Also, do you think that a company can pay a artist $700 or more a week and not have the money to buy professional class top of the line hardware. For all they care they'd get you a quad processor Xeon. Same goes for schools do you think that if you go to Harverd, get financial aid, pass all 4 years, and make your first million that the school isn't gonna want their money back in the form of "donations"? What about your Mom and Dad? When you get older and they get ever more aged do you think they wouldn't like that you take care of them like they did to you.

*edit* I forgot to say that the pentium 4 was made to be able to reach high clockrates just so they can scam the people that don't know better. AMD on the other hand at lease tries to keep some truth behind their ratings.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2004, 08:37:56 PM by Outpost_prime »
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Offline Zircon

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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2004, 05:13:48 AM »
Quote
All I said was if Intel made a Pentium 3 chip that was clocked at 2Ghz that it would be faster.

So what about the pentium 4 different architecture, bigger cache, added alghoritms like sse3 & hyperthreading, 0,13 - 0,09 micron allowing a higher fsb, longer pipelines, better prefetching alghoritms ?

Quote
Do you think that a multi-million dollar project would care how much it costs to make their own software? Games like Final Fantasy XI took years to make and lots of money.

Ofcourse they make their own ingame engine or atleast most of the times. The CGI scenes in it however is as usual either made by 3dsmax maya or lightwave, you simply dont "make" such a software.

It's like Havok, all big games use it and do you know why. Because they are good at what they do and making their own physics engine that works as good as Havok would take longer then the game itself. Example, HalfLife 2.

They always use those big tools for cgi scenes, 3dsmax alone has been part of
- Cinderella Story, - Scooby-Doo 2: Monsters Unleashed- The Last Samurai- Elf- Freddy vs. Jason- The Italian Job- The Matrix Reloaded- The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen- Renart, the Fox- Catch Me If You Can- X2: X-Men United- The Core- Final Destination II- Coronado- Equilibrium- Star Trek Nemesis- The Ring- Reign of Fire- Ecks vs Sever- Undisputed- Panic Room- Quo Vadis- Check Into Disaster- The Imposter- Murder By Numbers- Tristan & Iseut- Kaena The Prophecy- Minority Report- Lewis and Clark- The Majestic- Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back- AntiTrust- Jeepers Creepers- Swordfish- Driven- Tomb Raider- Cats & Dogs- Dr. Dolittle II- The Mummy Return- Dr. T and the Women- Battlefield Earth- X-Men- Soul Keeper- Mission Impossible II- For The Cause- South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut- The Green Mile- Inspector Gadget- The Insider- October Sky- Armageddon- Deep Rising- I’ll Be Home For Christmas- Soldier- Mighty Joe Young- Return to Paradise- Lost in Space- The Truman Show- Great Expectations- The Newton Boys- A Simple Wish- Con Air- Kundun- The Craft- The Crow 2: City of Angels- Casino- Johnny Mnemonic- Virtuosit

And those are just movies. It's an impossibility to make such a tool yourself or even for a big company for univeral, atleast in short time. 3dsmax is also just a framework, you then add plugins like brazil in order to get true raytracing and that software alone has taken alot of time. So unless you want to spend 30 years on a movie you buy the software and no you dont need royalties. 3dsmax sell their software (expensively i might add) but after that they want no part or deals with the company.

You still blend ingame engines and real 3d work together try to understand that they are two completely different things.

Quote
What about your Mom and Dad? When you get older and they get ever more aged do you think they wouldn't like that you take care of them like they did to you.

That is exactly one of the reasons why we Swedes pay taxes and have a good welfare program.

As for the rest, if it is so incredibly simple to get investors, why not help out selfdestruct or op2patriot with their op2movie. Im certain you'll pull it off you'll make big bucks after all ;) .

As you said yourself, the first criteria in order to get an investor is to "have a project that even looks like it'll make a lot of money" and you will probably have alot of convincing to do. In other words, everyone doesn't have that possibility when for example trying to do something controversial or wastly different.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2004, 05:19:47 AM by Zircon »