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Off Topic => Computers & Programming General => Topic started by: ZeusBD on March 27, 2004, 09:57:27 AM

Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: ZeusBD on March 27, 2004, 09:57:27 AM
Intel  (thumbsdown)

AMD  (thumbsup)  
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Kiith Somtaaw on March 27, 2004, 10:01:59 AM
(OT) Your not one of them are you

I feel Intel Are Better!



Anyway... I have many a game, So if you want to play a certain game, give me a shout because I may have the game to.
 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: ZeusBD on March 27, 2004, 10:20:19 AM
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(OT) Your not one of them are you

I feel Intel Are Better!
What do you mean "Your not one of them are you"?

I think that Intel's are better for regular app's, but I like AMD for gaming. You more often than not get a better chip with AMD. Anyways, it is all personnal preference.

I yes we shall get back on topic.

Either way, still a very very nice system Kiith  (thumbsup)  
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Kiith Somtaaw on March 27, 2004, 02:02:22 PM
I agree, and the Intel Pentium 4 3.2 GHz Processor Is also excellent for Gaming!







 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: xamlit on June 09, 2004, 09:30:20 PM
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Your not one of them are you

I feel Intel Are Better!


 
Wow... incredible.. not to be OT but I completely agree with Zeus.. I am an AMD fanboy at heart.. I have one question. If AMD is worse than Intel then why does AMD's top processor which runs at 2.6ghz fight neck to neck with Intels top processor which runs at 3.4ghz. Who do you think has the better design and is more effecient clock cycle for clock cycle...

Proof: http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040318/athlon-fx53-24.html (http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040318/athlon-fx53-24.html)





Ah.... the silence is deafening!
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Kiith Somtaaw on June 09, 2004, 10:33:05 PM
How can you be sure the Results are true?

They could be falsified  ;)

All the New Processors are Powerful,
I'm sure they will handle all new games for years to come.


Anyway AMD gives me a headache  <_<

Don't Ask!
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: CK9 on June 09, 2004, 11:31:50 PM
*stares at kiith for a half an hour then states in a paranoid voice: "Youre one of them!"*

I have to agree with kiith on this, Intel processors are better (comparing in school computers, which you all know lag like crazy on their own!)
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: BlackBox on June 10, 2004, 07:55:47 AM
I'd be willing to bet the school computers are using Intel processors.

Intel processors are not better at all. They are a cheap business class processor with a worse architecture than the AMD. (And as far as expense, if you know what sites to buy AMD processors from you can get a processor that's a lot better than most Intels for around $75-100). AMD designed their processors for intensive multimedia stuff (like running 3d modeling apps, gaming, etc). Just because a processor's clock speed is higher (and I have a feeling some of you don't know what clock speed means?) doesn't make it faster. It's how many clock ticks it takes to execute an instruction, and AMD processors require less ticks per instruction as compared to Intel processors.
Clock speed also isn't only what makes the processor better. The best measure is the giga/teraflops of the processor (FLOPs = floating point operations per second)

And I'm sure the results aren't falsified. The results are from unbiased people that want to show it like it is.

I'm for AMD as well.... Intel just has a better hold on consumers that don't know a lot about computers (and in their case, it may never matter because they may never fully stress the processor)

I'm typing this on an old intel Pentium2, and yes, its a piece of crap. (It's not a good gauge cuz it's old.. but I'm sure that an AMD processor running at the same clock speed would outdo this processor)
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 10, 2004, 08:06:26 AM
As op2hacker says, trying to compare a 3,4 ghz p4 and a 2,6 AMD (clockwise) doesn't work because of the different architectures.

op2hacker is incorrect in one thing though, AMD series processors are not good at "3d modeling apps".

You want the highest speed in games ? Get an AMD.
You want the highest speed in ordinary applications ? Intel succeds in many tests but not all.

You want good performance (but not best) in applications games and 3d apps? Get an intel.

You want the best performance you can get for 3d modelling apps? Get an intel p4 extreme edition plus an NVIDIA Quadro (or softmod a geforce into one).
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: xfir on June 10, 2004, 10:01:15 AM
My school uses Intel.. I forget what the Net. Admin said, but I think it was along the lines of "Intel are better at doing what these computers do: Document editing."
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Kramy on June 10, 2004, 12:39:06 PM
Well, I'm not going to argue, but I'll just sumarize my experiences with intel:

1) Buy old pentium. When processor dies, it corrupts all harddrives. :(

2) Buy p2. When processor dies, it corrupts C drive. :(

3) Buy p3. It died in 2 years....

4) Buy AMD Athlon - still going.

------------------------------------
1) My uncle's pentium's(P and PII) have fried twice, and he's had to get whole new comps. I wonder why he doesn't go for AMD?

2) My mom's office computer is a K6, and is still running fine. No problems. :)

Now maybe I just got all the bad luck in intel's processors, but it happened, so now I NEVER use them.(and hey, maybe all that bad-intel-luck coming my way is the reason they work so well for you?(and vice versa, since the AMD's work great for me :) ))

 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 10, 2004, 12:40:18 PM
hmm? I belive that some of you guys are confused. Most 3d work is done by the Graphics Hardware. To say that it's the processor doing all the work is stupid <_< .  Most of the time it's the CPU that's holding back the GPU/VPU. The new Geforce and Radeon cards are gonna have more transisters then the Pentium 4. I really hate it when I see these Intel vs AMD arguments.  Have any of you seen a school computer with a Geforce 6800 or a ATI X800? Plus, anyways without Graphics hardware AMD processors do better because of the more powerful FPU.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: xamlit on June 10, 2004, 01:05:36 PM
Sorry for adding gas to the flames. I just switched to this forum after posting at forums.amd.com...
 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 10, 2004, 02:13:51 PM
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hmm? I belive that some of you guys are confused. Most 3d work is done by the Graphics Hardware. To say that it's the processor doing all the work is stupid <_< .  Most of the time it's the CPU that's holding back the GPU/VPU.
True, But not for 3d modelling applications.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: CK9 on June 10, 2004, 03:18:46 PM
Hacker, I don't think you read my wording correctally...
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: BlackBox on June 10, 2004, 04:55:30 PM
most 3d modeling apps have an option to let you use hardware acceleration. It's just not on by default.

Also - the code for these apps isn't extremely different from other things.

All of them have to use basic sets of instructions like MOV, PUSH, POP, CALL, JMP, CMP, ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV, RET, etc.

 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 10, 2004, 05:39:52 PM
As for graphics cards they are only used for example in the viewport with reflective surfaces or cG effects (opengl, directx)

When you want to render something the graphics card has nothing to do with it and you wouldn't want it to for that matter either. The only cards that has the possibility to help in the rendering process is NVIDIAs Quadro, their new GELATO or a softmodded GeForce.

Nvidias Quadro and gelato has extra pipelines plus hardware support for advanced raytracing alghoritms.

As for your set of instructions, Is there a single application on this planet that does not use those  :angry: Go one step higher in the ladder, the mathematics used in 3d modelling software isnt very basic.

Care to give an example of a 3d modelling application that isn't already using the cpu and ram to the fullest op2hacker? (in other words an application with even that kind of function (not counting viewport acceleration and Quadro, gelato) )
It's quite strange mentioning hardware acceleration in this case.
I guess you could run the viewport in software mode, but it would not be pleasant.

As for AMD Intel in 3d modelling applications, ever heard of SSL (2, 3), or MMX?
Or HyperThreading, a 40% percent increase in rendering times when it comes to radiosity(brazil, light tracer)!
At ground level all are the same but there are so much more to it, and short in short AMD arent as good as intel for 3d modelling apps. There's not much more to say.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Kramy on June 11, 2004, 10:58:50 AM
www.anim8or.com

Anim8or: Free 3D modeller that uses open gl. Not sure what it uses for rendering.

It was annoying since when I originally found it(years ago) I had a voodoo, which didn't support open gl. :P
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 11, 2004, 12:45:04 PM
I wasn't really talking about 3d rendering programs ;) . But, anyways when it comes to games AMD is better at those things. The most I can think of for Intel processors is doing work in cubicals that is unless it's a Xeon which is meant more for servers, 3D MODELING!!!, and other processor intensive things :P. I've never heard of a Professional 3D artist making models on anything less then a dual G4 or dual Xeon. Unless.... they were cheap :ph34r:. Who cares about Hyper Threading because when you have Dual Processors and a Modeling Program that is optimized for them there would be no need for it.  
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 11, 2004, 01:47:42 PM
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I've never heard of a Professional 3D artist making models on anything less then a dual G4 or dual Xeon. Unless.... they were cheap :ph34r:. Who cares about Hyper Threading because when you have Dual Processors and a Modeling Program that is optimized for them there would be no need for it.
And what is exactly a professional 3d artist. Not every studio has a gigantic budget for things.

Take Kaze (animated movie) for example, one person + 6 months + lightwave and no dual g4 or xeon for that matter. Isnt he a "professional" ?

Or any other kind of studio, they dont throw those things around like candy.

And who cares about hyperthreading, right about everyone because the boost it gives in raytracing engines is tremendous. And dual processor "are" hyper threading to start with.

Also what kind of "optimised" modelling program, there are basicly just 4-5 big softwares used by companies internationally Maya, 3dsmax and lightwave etc...
They dont use some kind of super duper software for movies.

Modern studios are built like this, The artists sit on "normal" pc's that are not so overmighty, the pcs are however linked to a processor farm by for example backburner. The "processor farm" can wary from using spare resources from other pcs in the building or dedicated server farms. They often use a mix of the two.
SGI hardware is going down, in other words dying because it isnt profitable and it's cumbersome. Macs are also dying out on that front, i'll quote myself.

"Macs are mainly used for 2d rendering and manipulation these days, more and more companies have switched over to intel based solutions...

They didn't use macs for 3d work before either, studios like Industrial Light & Magic, Sony Pictures Imageworks, and Pixar invested in SGI hardware but has as said switched to intel based solutions...

Macs still rule the land of 2d and editing though... "

This reminds me http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=641 (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=641)
How is the movie coming along, selfdestruct, op2patriot ?

--------------

The point was to point out that graphic cards play a minor role in 3d modelling and that intel processors were better meant for that kind of work. ? The end ?
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: BlackBox on June 13, 2004, 03:27:50 PM
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Go one step higher in the ladder, the mathematics used in 3d modelling software isnt very basic.

Um.... I don't know if you've seen the equations used, and also the instructions the computer does.

calculating transforms:
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/3dgraphics7.htm (http://computer.howstuffworks.com/3dgraphics7.htm)

In basic algebra you find out that every complicated mathematical operation can be done using only 4 operations.
It all uses +, -, *, and /. (sine and cosine are basic mathematical formulas. They aren't even instructions anyway. The only mathematical instructions that can be done are ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV, and MOD. (There are floating point instructions like FMUL, FDIV but still, those don't do anything more than add subtract multiply and divide).

And most newer graphics boards handle transforms instead of the CPU handling them, as well as rasterization (applying textures to the wireframes).
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 13, 2004, 03:43:17 PM
Processor farm  :huh:? Are you talking about Clusters? I can set up 1 of my schools 30 client P3 1Ghz labs with a Beowolf cluster for a day and not spend any money :D. Game companies make their own Modeling software and renderers so they can get the most out of the gaming hardware or what ever they are trying to do. They do that so that they save money and also get maximum performance.

Dual processors arn't as expensive as you may think. A person can buy a dual P4 Xeon comp for as little as $2000 for example Dual P4 xeon (http://store.yahoo.com/gnstest-store/sys-srv-p4-dsar.html). About hyper threading, hmm, ohh yes, it's just like having Dual Processors just slower :P. Plus havn't you ever heard of financing.  My bother gave away his  $2500 Sony Vaio (he didn't give to me  :ph34r:  ) and he isn't 1 of those kind of people that earn $80,000 a year. Plus, there are also alternative processors that support SMP like the Via C3 Nehemiah (not the most powerful processor yes) and it only costs about $30 per processor.

 The pentium 4 is clunkyer then the Pentium 3 which I bet if it was clocked at 2Ghz would be faster then a pentium 4 at the same clockrate. The Pentium 4's clockrate is only at 3.4Ghz so that normal people would think it's better because it says 3.4Ghz. The Athon64 FX is clocked at 2.4Ghz and can match the 3.4Ghz pentium 4 even when it's not in it's native OS. The clock speed on P4's are only used for propaganda to get more customers. One more thing... A local Non-profit organization called New Urban Arts (http://www.newurbanarts.org) just got a brand new G4 that cost them like $4000 and they are a non profit organization (not much money). There are 2 many cheapskates in this world for sure :yawn:.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 13, 2004, 04:49:26 PM
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Um.... I don't know if you've seen the equations used, and also the instructions the computer does.
You're just twisting my words, you know what i mean with basic.

I said they were all the same at ground level but they they get more complex when put together. I mean with that kind of reasoning you would find 1+1 as simple as quantum physics. They're still built on the same laws deep down but the difference in difficulty is much bigger.

And both of you have wandered into the lands of "ordinary" 3d graphics the kind that uses glide and direct x. They are two completely different things.

In 3d modelling as in rendering a scene within 3dsmax has absolutely nothing to do with a graphics card. 3d engines as used in games try to imitate real physics. Programs like 3dsmax make it real.

That's why a 3d engine can blast out 30 frames per second while it takes my computer 5 hours to render a 40 second scene.

*sigh* End line, graphics cards has nothing to do with 3d modelling programs (example 3dsmax) and intel based processors are better at handling that kind of work (again 3dsmax not ingame engines) because of their "higher" based alghoritms. It all cames back to this, it's true, the world agrees to it, tests show it. And anyone with even basic knowledge of 3dmodelling programs (again 3dsmax) know it.

Outpost_prime:  Processor farm ?

Yes, processor farms it's almost the same as clusters just that processor farms is used (the word) a lot more often.

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Game companies make their own Modeling software and renderers so they can get the most out of the gaming hardware or what ever they are trying to do. They do that so that they save money and also get maximum performance.

Again, you're talking about game !engines! not 3d modelling programs like 3dsmax, maya, lightwave, cinema 4d. Big difference. Get it ?

As for the rest, yeah you can get it for 2000 dollars, that isn't very cheap to me or for a newly started company.  So you mean the pentium 4 clockspeeds is just propaganda and that a overclocked p3 beats it.  :mellow:
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 13, 2004, 08:32:01 PM
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The pentium 4 is clunkyer then the Pentium 3 which I bet if it was clocked at 2Ghz would be faster then a pentium 4 at the same clockrate.

I never said anything about overclocking. All I said was if Intel made a Pentium 3 chip that was clocked at 2Ghz that it would be faster. The propaganda also extends to AMDs ratings as well. Would a innocent football jock go for the higher number or a lower number with the same performance and a cheaper price, hmm, the higher number :P. Intel knows this and use it every day to grab hold of the market and make lots of money.

When I was talking about modeling programs I didn't mean that it was only for a game or a movie. What if the game team needed some graphics for marketing I don't think that they would like to pay royalties just because they decided to take the easy route and use off the shelf software. Do you think that a multi-million dollar project would care how much it costs to make their own software? Games like Final Fantasy XI took years to make and lots of money.

Banks have lots of money they would like to share and if you have a project that even looks like it'll make a lot of money they will invest in your project. Can you buy a car with $30,000 in cash? Do you think that starting companys uses their own money? No, they don't because they don't have that kind of cash. So to get it they look for investors. That's what banks do with the money you put in there. They use it to make money off of your money and back in the form interest. If you or whoever so happen to make the final project with less money then what was invested in to you you can keep it or return it. Only after you make lots of money and pay your debt that you can start using your own money. Also, do you think that a company can pay a artist $700 or more a week and not have the money to buy professional class top of the line hardware. For all they care they'd get you a quad processor Xeon. Same goes for schools do you think that if you go to Harverd, get financial aid, pass all 4 years, and make your first million that the school isn't gonna want their money back in the form of "donations"? What about your Mom and Dad? When you get older and they get ever more aged do you think they wouldn't like that you take care of them like they did to you.

*edit* I forgot to say that the pentium 4 was made to be able to reach high clockrates just so they can scam the people that don't know better. AMD on the other hand at lease tries to keep some truth behind their ratings.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 14, 2004, 05:13:48 AM
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All I said was if Intel made a Pentium 3 chip that was clocked at 2Ghz that it would be faster.

So what about the pentium 4 different architecture, bigger cache, added alghoritms like sse3 & hyperthreading, 0,13 - 0,09 micron allowing a higher fsb, longer pipelines, better prefetching alghoritms ?

Quote
Do you think that a multi-million dollar project would care how much it costs to make their own software? Games like Final Fantasy XI took years to make and lots of money.

Ofcourse they make their own ingame engine or atleast most of the times. The CGI scenes in it however is as usual either made by 3dsmax maya or lightwave, you simply dont "make" such a software.

It's like Havok, all big games use it and do you know why. Because they are good at what they do and making their own physics engine that works as good as Havok would take longer then the game itself. Example, HalfLife 2.

They always use those big tools for cgi scenes, 3dsmax alone has been part of
- Cinderella Story, - Scooby-Doo 2: Monsters Unleashed- The Last Samurai- Elf- Freddy vs. Jason- The Italian Job- The Matrix Reloaded- The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen- Renart, the Fox- Catch Me If You Can- X2: X-Men United- The Core- Final Destination II- Coronado- Equilibrium- Star Trek Nemesis- The Ring- Reign of Fire- Ecks vs Sever- Undisputed- Panic Room- Quo Vadis- Check Into Disaster- The Imposter- Murder By Numbers- Tristan & Iseut- Kaena The Prophecy- Minority Report- Lewis and Clark- The Majestic- Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back- AntiTrust- Jeepers Creepers- Swordfish- Driven- Tomb Raider- Cats & Dogs- Dr. Dolittle II- The Mummy Return- Dr. T and the Women- Battlefield Earth- X-Men- Soul Keeper- Mission Impossible II- For The Cause- South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut- The Green Mile- Inspector Gadget- The Insider- October Sky- Armageddon- Deep Rising- I’ll Be Home For Christmas- Soldier- Mighty Joe Young- Return to Paradise- Lost in Space- The Truman Show- Great Expectations- The Newton Boys- A Simple Wish- Con Air- Kundun- The Craft- The Crow 2: City of Angels- Casino- Johnny Mnemonic- Virtuosit

And those are just movies. It's an impossibility to make such a tool yourself or even for a big company for univeral, atleast in short time. 3dsmax is also just a framework, you then add plugins like brazil in order to get true raytracing and that software alone has taken alot of time. So unless you want to spend 30 years on a movie you buy the software and no you dont need royalties. 3dsmax sell their software (expensively i might add) but after that they want no part or deals with the company.

You still blend ingame engines and real 3d work together try to understand that they are two completely different things.

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What about your Mom and Dad? When you get older and they get ever more aged do you think they wouldn't like that you take care of them like they did to you.

That is exactly one of the reasons why we Swedes pay taxes and have a good welfare program.

As for the rest, if it is so incredibly simple to get investors, why not help out selfdestruct or op2patriot with their op2movie. Im certain you'll pull it off you'll make big bucks after all ;) .

As you said yourself, the first criteria in order to get an investor is to "have a project that even looks like it'll make a lot of money" and you will probably have alot of convincing to do. In other words, everyone doesn't have that possibility when for example trying to do something controversial or wastly different.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 14, 2004, 10:24:03 AM
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So what about the pentium 4 different architecture, bigger cache, added alghoritms like sse3 & hyperthreading, 0,13 - 0,09 micron allowing a higher fsb, longer pipelines, better prefetching alghoritms ?

Have you ever heard of the Pentium M? It's just a revised Pentium 3 yet it offers more performace then a 2.7Ghz celeron that is based on the Pentium 4 at only 2Ghz. The longer piplines are what let the Pentium 4 reach high clockrates. The clockrate means nothing. Also don't you think that 32bit processing is getting old. I bet by 2006 most systems are going to be 64bit.

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That is exactly one of the reasons why we Swedes pay taxes and have a good welfare program.

If the welfare program is so "good" can those old people live on the welfare checks alone? I know some old people that pay over $600 a month on drugs alone plus rent, nurses, doctors, food, and transportation. I don't think there is a welfare program in the world that can do that. You don't know how bad it is until you are forced to be poor. The US is supposed to be 1 of many countrys that have lots of money for stuff like that, but then I still see people begging in the streets. Makes me wonder if your rich or something. When you get old tell me how it is when you don't have food to eat for 3 days, your sick, and have no shelter. You just can't throw some money at somebody and think that they will be okey.  Do you care at all about your parents welfare? Dang, if you think taxes can you really must be a penny pincher.

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As for the rest, if it is so incredibly simple to get investors, why not help out selfdestruct or op2patriot with their op2movie. Im certain you'll pull it off you'll make big bucks after all  .

Do you even think that it'll make a lot of money? Most people spend months writing reports before showing anything to investors.  I can't spend 6 months writing a 600 page essay on what we are going to do while in production. I need to finish school before I do anything like that. I got a friend who started his own computer repair shop and don't think that he can do that with the $20,000 or so dollars he had in the bank. Nope, he got local banks to pay for it then lator he payed them back and is now making some decent amout of cash. If I asked him if he can invest in to the project he would most likly want to see all the paper work and meet them before even thinking about giving selfdestruct or Op2patriot money. When did I say it was simple to get investors? Yes, there are a lot of people with money but, then there is a lot more of paper work that is needed. Like I said earlier can you buy a $30,000 car in cash?  Didn't think so. Financing is just a bank investing in you as long as you can pay them back with interest. What about buying a $250,000 house... did somebody say Mortgages? A family that earns $55,000 or more a year can afford to buy a house like that thanks to mortgages.

This is starting to get really off topic.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: BlackBox on June 14, 2004, 10:44:58 AM
another point, 64 bit architecture.

All new AMD processors have some 64 bit capabilities (they aren't true 64 bit processors, actually, they're 48 bit but the width is still wider than Intel's 32bits consumer processors)

The only processor Intel has available that is 64 bit is the Itanium, which is mainly for servers and other enterprise environments.

You also mustn't forget the 3dNow instructions unique to AMD.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Kramy on June 14, 2004, 12:00:37 PM
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If the welfare program is so "good" can those old people live on the welfare checks alone? I know some old people that pay over $600 a month on drugs alone plus rent, nurses, doctors, food, and transportation. I don't think there is a welfare program in the world that can do that. You don't know how bad it is until you are forced to be poor.

Revise that to "poor in the US". We all know your corporations suck. :lol: They're making big cash off those drugs, since a bottle+pills only costs 27 cents to manufacture. :lol:(varies slightly from drug to drug, btw) Oh, but don't forget the $42 quality testing and assurance. Have to make sure those pills don't unexpectedly affect you in any way... :blink:

You should move to canada. Here drugs are 1/3 the price, and if you count the exchange rate, you'll only be paying $145 american. :)

Then again, our healthcare pays for lots of(cheaper)drugs, so I guess that wouldn't matter if you're canadian. In town here you can rent apartments for as little as $400, so if you take the cheapest drugs, cheapest apartment, and cheapest food....you might have $50 at the end of the month...yeah, ok, bit of a stretch. Hope your parents saved up some money like mine. :)

Edit: Oh yeah, a friend of mine just moved to the states. Up here they were paying $1000 a month on their mortgage($650 went to interest).

Anyway, some american company bought out theirs, then closed it, and gave them an offer to work down to the states. They went down to the states(california), since they were jobless, and got an equivalent sized house for only $4350, or $6000 canadian in RENT, each month. :blink:

I think all americans are crazy. :o
 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 14, 2004, 12:56:17 PM
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Have you ever heard of the Pentium M? It's just a revised Pentium 3 yet it offers more performace then a 2.7Ghz celeron that is based on the Pentium 4 at only 2Ghz. The longer piplines are what let the Pentium 4 reach high clockrates. The clockrate means nothing. Also don't you think that 32bit processing is getting old. I bet by 2006 most systems are going to be 64bit.

Celeron... One word explains it all ^_^

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If the welfare program is so "good" can those old people live on the welfare checks alone? I know some old people that pay over $600 a month on drugs alone plus rent, nurses, doctors, food, and transportation. I don't think there is a welfare program in the world that can do that. You don't know how bad it is until you are forced to be poor. The US is supposed to be 1 of many countrys that have lots of money for stuff like that, but then I still see people begging in the streets. Makes me wonder if your rich or something. When you get old tell me how it is when you don't have food to eat for 3 days, your sick, and have no shelter. You just can't throw some money at somebody and think that they will be okey. Do you care at all about your parents welfare? Dang, if you think taxes can you really must be a penny pincher.

1: Yes they can live on it alone. And live real good for that matter.
2: Old people only have to pay 10% of the medication (drugs), they also have a high cost insurance so that if the costs go above a certain point they get the rest for free.
Surgeries and visits to the doctor is free.
3: Nah not rich, medium. Like most others.
4: People out on the streets, never seen one in my city, never ever. I went to the capital city once though, i saw a poor lady in an alley that time.
5: If you are a single mother and without work, you get social funding. The same goes for people without employment, the only term is that you actively search for work and take the first one which pops up. Schools cost nothing. From basic school to the best universities. There are private "private schools" though that pick out extra payments. Ordinary private schools also get their funds from the government.
6: As for someone starving, it would make the news. It is completetely unheard of. If a person does die on the street it's not because they went hungry. More likely they took an overdose.
7: When a person gets so old that they cant take care of their home, they get an apartment in a service home (free) if they cant take care of the apartment they're put in the main service home with 24 hour nurses. (it's worth mentioning though that the quality of the main service home has degraded much in the last couple of years, but it's getting better again (slowly))
(list continues but im not going to count all and then i take many of them for granted)

We swedes dont pay 40% of all income in taxes for nothing you know  ^_^
(Tax rate depends on your salary ofcourse)

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I need to finish school before I do anything like that.

Very realistic.

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another point, 64 bit architecture.

All new AMD processors have some 64 bit capabilities (they aren't true 64 bit processors, actually, they're 48 bit but the width is still wider than Intel's 32bits consumer processors)

The only processor Intel has available that is 64 bit is the Itanium, which is mainly for servers and other enterprise environments.

You also mustn't forget the 3dNow instructions unique to AMD.

And how many 3d modelling programs are made to use those? Zero.
If you look at tests the 64 bit architecture is a disadvantage when it comes to 3d modelling software like 3dsmax.

If they changed the software to use the 64 bit architecture im sure they would have an advantage though. But they probably wont redirect their software until intel reveals their own customer based 64 bit processors.

--------------

Again, no im not saying that AMD is bad. They're great at games. All you need to do is look at game benchmarks. Trying to stand against it is foolishness.
But, AMD is at a clear disadvantage when it comes to 3d modelling applications. Check the tests, it shows it.
What is it that is so hard to accept with that ?

Note for the nitpickers (once again) ingame engines and 3d modelling software is two completely different things. Dont mix them together.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: zeritou on June 14, 2004, 01:34:03 PM
i read about half of this thread before i decided:

all the processors you guys are talking about are obsolete, 6 gigahertz processors are a reality, and you guys are buggin out about a p4, whoopie...

as soon as they make the 7 gigers quit triping over themselves, then the 5 gigs will be out for consumer use, and so on

so quit *itching about the pitiful crap we have now, it all runs outpost the same
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 14, 2004, 08:45:50 PM
:P To get 5,6,7 gigs with current processors would mean that you would need MASSIVE cooling which doesn't include water cooling :D....hmm Liquid Helium -268.93°C... maybe not. Still what really matters is the FLOPS ---> Mega, Giga, Tera, Peta which is what Super computers go by.
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Celeron... One word explains it all
The celeron is based on the P4 and even the Pentium 4 is starting to lag compared to the Pentium M when going at equal speeds. Think about the P4 Extream :D that thing is so expensive that having dual xeons is cheaper and faster. When you think about it new xeons have hyperthreading. A dual xeon with hyperthreading is like having quad processors only that it's like $300-$400 cheaper.
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Revise that to "poor in the US". We all know your corporations suck.  They're making big cash off those drugs, since a bottle+pills only costs 27 cents to manufacture. (varies slightly from drug to drug, btw) Oh, but don't forget the $42 quality testing and assurance. Have to make sure those pills don't unexpectedly affect you in any way...
Who said anything about the corporations and their cash and drugs. I can buy a generic drug that the pharmacist made and get it cheaper. Plus, we can buy drugs from canada too you know.
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We swedes dont pay 40% of all income in taxes for nothing you know
(Tax rate depends on your salary ofcourse)
We pay about 33%. You also have to remember that we are at war and war costs a lot of money. Does sweden even have a military anymore? Anyways we pay more taxes then any country in the world. Here there is a Tax on everything. I can't even buy the sunday newspaper without paying the 7%(gonna raise to 13% by end of the year)  sales tax on it or  even a bar of candy :P.
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If they changed the software to use the 64 bit architecture im sure they would have an advantage though. But they probably wont redirect their software until intel reveals their own customer based 64 bit processors.

You just made my point that Intel uses propaganda to grab hold of the market. Until Intel comes out with a mainstream 64bit processor "Normal" people wouldn't even look at the advantages. Did you ever get a Nintendo64 and see the performance difference between a normal computer of the time and it. I remember that when Nintendo64 came out it was faster then the worlds fastest super computer in 1989 or something. Now remember I said that companys would make their own modeling software wouldn't that extend to the fact that because there are no commercial 64bit modeling programs. If it isn't already made, they most likely made their own right?
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Anyway, some american company bought out theirs, then closed it, and gave them an offer to work down to the states. They went down to the states(california), since they were jobless, and got an equivalent sized house for only $4350, or $6000 canadian in RENT, each month.
I think all americans are crazy.
I can rent an apartment with 3 bedrooms and 2 bath for $200 a month including all utilities. Plus, when buying a house it depends on the bank and all the local property taxes (There are a lot of them). Anyway you can't even buy a house with help from a bank until you have lived in the US for 2 years. My family owns 2 houses right now (1 here and 1 in my homeland ( ...bragging :D
 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 15, 2004, 05:20:03 AM
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We pay about 33%. You also have to remember that we are at war and war costs a lot of money. Does sweden even have a military anymore?

When you weren't at war the situation in the US wasn't very different so what is your point?
Yes we do. We like to specialise though, we may not have a big military but we have an up to date one. Plus, the population is almost up to 9 million so we aren't exactly huge.

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To get 5,6,7 gigs with current processors would mean that you would need MASSIVE cooling which doesn't include water cooling ....

I dont think he was talking about current processors...

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A dual xeon with hyperthreading is like having quad processors only that it's like $300-$400 cheaper.

You are over rating hyperthreading, tests show that 4 threads usually make the process go slower. Besides to begin with hyperthreading doesn't give a big benefit in games or ordinary applications. (if at all) The true benefits exists in 3dmodelling applications, that's why people usually "Who cares about Hyper Threading because when you have Dual Processors and a Modeling Program that is optimized for them there would be no need for it."
The effect is there and it's big. (3d modelling applications ofcourse)

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You just made my point that Intel uses propaganda to grab hold of the market. Until Intel comes out with a mainstream 64bit processor "Normal" people wouldn't even look at the advantages. Did you ever get a Nintendo64 and see the performance difference between a normal computer of the time and it. I remember that when Nintendo64 came out it was faster then the worlds fastest super computer in 1989 or something. Now remember I said that companys would make their own modeling software wouldn't that extend to the fact that because there are no commercial 64bit modeling programs. If it isn't already made, they most likely made their own right?

First of all 64 bit processors are relatively new, before that AMD didn't have a single thing that was appealing for modelling users. Thus Intel is the natural choice.
So intel was chosen and all software adopted to it (3d modelling software again for you nitpicks) Now that AMD has a single appealing thing namely 64 bit architecture do you think the entire market will throw themselves over the 64 bit processors and rebuild all the software and miss out on the big benefits hyper threading gives?

As for the nintendo 64, i have no information on that part so i wont comment on it.

As for 64 bit modelling programs, it's only a matter of time before it starts turning to that front as well, but that is as said a couple of years after intel reveals their customer based 64 bit processors because they want both parts of the cookie.
The thing with 3d modelling software is that making one with true raytracing capabilities takes a lot of time to make. It isn't a 3d (game) engine (again i refer to the point that they are two completely different things)
In short, companies dont make their own 3d modelling software, yeah sure they make ingame 3d engines and character creation suites but 3d modelling software, no.
It wouldn't be profitable and it would take a very very long time.

Thus they follow the market. Also 64 bit architecture isn't good enough, they need something like hyperthreading to give a good boost and 64 bit processors in order to make it appealing enough to start changing the software.

It's like the machines made to make processors 1,30 - 0,90 microns, there's one producer and the machines cost very much and are hard to build. Therefore you simply "dont build one yourself" as it would surely drag the company into the abyss.
Or particle accelerators, or observatories, they hire or borrow it because building one yourself isnt an option. Or like NASA, you dont just build a rocket and *woosh* you go...

If it was simple to just make your own (im guessing you're going to say "when did i say it was easy?" now) it wouldnt cost $3,495.00 for one license of 3dsmax.

Source: Discreet online store

And also what would they gain of it, spending incredible amounts of money setting up entirely new software creation offices hiring mathematics and physicists into making a 3d modelling software (that would take at a minimum of 5 years to build) fully compatible with 64 bit processors and then re-educating the entire staff to use the new software and buy a completely new set of hardware just so they can get speeds with an AMD equivelant to that of a hyper threading enabled processor that they already had from the beginning.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: BlackBox on June 15, 2004, 07:17:18 AM
Not trying to get too offtopic here, but like Prime said you can rent an apartment with full utilities for $200-300. (especially at the old airforce base by me).

Also, if you're paying $145 american for "most drugs," that's insane!! (bad example). That seems more like the cost of some newer drugs...
(Don't forget here if your insurance company lets you, you can import some drugs from Canada... like cheaper generics that cost less).

And you feel pity for the people that can't make a living in the USA....

Everyone can make a living in the USA unless they can't work for some reason or have retired. (That's what unemployment, workers' comp., and Social Security are for those situations).
The people that don't even try and that could work if they weren't so
lazy are the ones that don't deserve welfare.

And yes, I've been to Canada, personally I find it very depressing because everything seems to have no money. (eg. some roads are horrible and need repaving, the shopping centers have only a few stores, etc)
Canada as a whole doesn't have a lot of money.

Nor would I want to live in a socialist country. That is no way to have a strong country, by letting the government control whether you can put up businesses, etc. even if they have benefits that don't really help the whole public. and the public housing? All I can say is "yuck." I've seen some examples of some of those types of things...

Capitalism is the reason America is so strong today because the government doesn't have a tight grip on everything. And people are willing to make money, and do so.

GM: clean this thread.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 15, 2004, 07:26:33 AM
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That is no way to have a strong country, by letting the government control whether you can put up businesses, etc. even if they have benefits that don't really help the whole public. and the public housing? All I can say is "yuck." I've seen some examples of some of those types of things...

First of all, the government has no control over what kind of business you want to set up. It's not communism you know  :angry:
That is except for private schools, they need ask the government about that but so far there hasn't been any denials.

You get an apartment which you move all your own furniture into, an ordinary apartment like any other. What's so yucky with that. Besides the people that get these apartments cant survive without a nurse visiting them atleast twice a day so trying to gather them together is obvious.

But yes i can agree the full service homes (the last stop before death, as in cant walk  or eat anymore) currently available is a disgrace, but as said it's getting better slowly.

This is ofcourse based on views from my country, there's bad socialism and there's good socialism. Or rather sweden utilises a socialistic democratic with a small slice of capitalism society which has according to the cia factbook been very successful.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 15, 2004, 10:57:46 AM
Ok... I'll start off by saying that INTEL HAS A 64BIT PROCESSOR. I'm guessing you didn't already know this.

It is true that there are 5ghz processors. Intel holds processors back so they don't have to spend a whole lot of time and money paying hardware engineers to make new ones such as the case with the Pentium MMX and the Pentium Pro. A Pentium MMX 233Mhz can go 300Mhz with just a fan.

The Athon64 as Op2Hacker already said is not a true 64bit processor.

I'll still say that the Pentium M is still better then a Pentium 4.

When I was talking about the quad processor thing have you ever seen how much it'll cost for a Pentium 4 Extream system. You said that hypertheading speeds up 3D modeling programs right? Well, when I was talking about xeons and hypertheading I was kind of asking you if it would be faster with dual xeons with hypertheading insted of just a single processor.

Intel is already making a 64bit processor for the mainstream
 
AMD's cheapo processor, the duron, is gonna have a new name and is gonna be for socket 754 and it can still blowout a celeron now more then ever :D.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 15, 2004, 11:51:17 AM
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Ok... I'll start off by saying that INTEL HAS A 64BIT PROCESSOR. I'm guessing you didn't already know this.

"The only processor Intel has available that is 64 bit is the Itanium, which is mainly for servers and other enterprise environments."

op2hacker has said this already, but as said it's not for the general population if so to speak. Many stores dont even carry them. There arent many tests on them and they've kinda fallen into the dark. Due to the lack of tests it might even produce very bad results. If you look at the prescott it performs worse at many tests even though it has 1 mb of cache. But that could be because it's the only processor with SSE3 support.  :mellow:

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AMD's cheapo processor, the duron, is gonna have a new name and is gonna be for socket 754 and it can still blowout a celeron now more then ever .

I wouldn't be surprised if it did, the celeron series have always performed badly nomatter what architecture it is built on.

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Well, when I was talking about xeons and hypertheading I was kind of asking you if it would be faster with dual xeons with hypertheading insted of just a single processor.

Probably, two heads is always better then one. Or rather processors in this case.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: zeritou on June 15, 2004, 12:11:24 PM
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To get 5,6,7 gigs with current processors would mean that you would need MASSIVE cooling which doesn't include water cooling ....

I dont think he was talking about current processors...
yes and no

yes, these processors do exist but no, they arent on any market anywhere (that ive herd of)

they are still in development (as i remember), the researchers still have to solve the cooling problems, they have to find a use for such speeds, they have to make other hardware to keep up, and the fact that the 7 giger trips over itself (it does the whole command at the same time instead of: do first line, check, do next line, check...)
 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Kramy on June 15, 2004, 01:39:12 PM
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Also, if you're paying $145 american for "most drugs," that's insane!! (bad example). That seems more like the cost of some newer drugs...
(Don't forget here if your insurance company lets you, you can import some drugs from Canada... like cheaper generics that cost less).

Referring to per month.

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And yes, I've been to Canada, personally I find it very depressing because everything seems to have no money. (eg. some roads are horrible and need repaving, the shopping centers have only a few stores, etc)
Canada as a whole doesn't have a lot of money.

Yes, all our jobs are going down to the states. :( That and many of us are taxed over 50%, so that our docs can make millions/year, and only have to pay a couple thousand in insurance. :(

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Nor would I want to live in a socialist country. That is no way to have a strong country, by letting the government control whether you can put up businesses, etc. even if they have benefits that don't really help the whole public. and the public housing? All I can say is "yuck." I've seen some examples of some of those types of things...

Well, that's fine, but I doubt any of us would want to live in america. :lol: Actually, I've yet to find a person in my town that wants to live in america....I doubt even 2% of people in firstworld countries outside of america, actually want to go there. I know most canadians don't like living in america. You should hear some of the letters they send back. Really funny :D ....oh wait, you're american, so you'd be insulted. :heh:
 
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 15, 2004, 02:23:56 PM
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I doubt even 2% of people in firstworld countries outside of america, actually want to go there.

Have you ever gone to a country outside of canada that isn't even kind of like it. I know I have. If you go to Haiti or the Dominican Republic you'll see what I mean. Everybody wants to go to the US. If you want a girlfriend go down there and get 50 :). They'll do anything to get you to love them really....

I have a friend named Mike that lived in the french area of canada and he loves it here.

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yes, these processors do exist but no, they arent on any market anywhere (that ive herd of)

Didn't I say Intel does this to save money. By making a big powerful chip then slowing it down and speeding it up little by little they can make more money off of the same chip. 20 dollars Intel is going to come out with a faster version of the Pentium 4 extream as soon as the calculated demand for it goes down.

*edit* Read what Microsoft has to say about 64bit processing and "3D animators, digital artists, and game developers"  Windows XP 64bit (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/overview.asp) What is this... 3D animatiors, hmm. I wonder what they mean by that  :whistle:  
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: BlackBox on June 16, 2004, 07:42:51 AM
Prime is right about the other countries. Even watch the news, you see ship loads of escapees from cuba and other places trying to enter the US.

And how can you draw conclusions when you haven't been there? You'll probably be really surprised when and if you come to the US.

I'm moving this into the Debate forum.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Kramy on June 16, 2004, 11:46:08 AM
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Prime is right about the other countries. Even watch the news, you see ship loads of escapees from cuba and other places trying to enter the US.

And how can you draw conclusions when you haven't been there? You'll probably be really surprised when and if you come to the US.

I'm moving this into the Debate forum.

Nope, don't see any of that. ;) We mainly see stuff like Iraqi riots over the US troops treating them inhumainly, etc.

Actually, according to some friends in the US the coverage there is very biased, and you don't get any of the good stuff("good stuff" being "actual stuff"). Apparently some Americans actually bought that the Iraqi people wanted you there. :lol: Well, that's probably cleared up now...

This last week it's been nothing but election stuff though. Man...all the choices are suck-ups to the US. If one gets in this will blow. <_< *envisions jobs and natural resources flowing into the US*(and missle defense turrets being set up)

Oh, and I guess you're right about my first comment. I can't really speak for other countries I haven't travelled to, so I'll change it to: "I doubt even 1% of Canadians(currently living in Canada) want to live in America."

I can't really speak for the Canadians that have moved down there(by choice), since I obviously don't have contact with all of them.  
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Coconut Monkey on June 17, 2004, 03:43:19 AM
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All new AMD processors have some 64 bit capabilities (they aren't true 64 bit processors, actually, they're 48 bit but the width is still wider than Intel's 32bits consumer processors)
That's a bit misleading. The 48-bits you refer to is the maximum virtual address space, or to be precise 256Tb (yowzers!). The A64 only has a maximum physical address space of 40-bits, or to be precise 1Tb, since it's obvious we won't going near that amount of RAM for a while yet.
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as soon as they make the 7 gigers quit triping over themselves, then the 5 gigs will be out for consumer use, and so on
Mhz are not much of a performance indicator anymore. Take a look at AMD and Intel's P-M processors - they're concentrating more on the internal design and efficiency of a processor instead of sheer raw clockspeed. I hear Intel are planning to slowly move over to the P-M architecture as a result.
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Think about the P4 Extream that thing is so expensive that having dual xeons is cheaper and faster. When you think about it new xeons have hyperthreading. A dual xeon with hyperthreading is like having quad processors only that it's like $300-$400 cheaper.
Think about an Operton instead. Far better performance in server applications. :D
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Intel is already making a 64bit processor for the mainstream
They sure are. In fact, they're copying AMD's design. Almost Completely. Tech documents from both companies are identical in many places. Why? AMD made their design open source, so all Intel had to do was grab it and make a few changes here and there.
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AMD's cheapo processor, the duron, is gonna have a new name and is gonna be for socket 754 and it can still blowout a celeron now more then ever
Yes indeed, it's called "Sempron". Based on the A64 (but without the 64-bittiness, and only 256Kb of L2 cache), it will debut on the socket A platform, extending the life of this old yet trusty socket format. Sempron will then move on to socket 754 under the codename of "Paris", before making its way to socket 939 under the codename "Palermo".
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: BlackBox on June 17, 2004, 07:44:34 AM
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Mhz are not much of a performance indicator anymore. Take a look at AMD and Intel's P-M processors - they're concentrating more on the internal design and efficiency of a processor instead of sheer raw clockspeed. I hear Intel are planning to slowly move over to the P-M architecture as a result.

exactly, a better measure is giga/teraflops (number of floating point instructions per second). What makes a processor better is how efficiently it uses one clock cycle, instead of how fast the clock speed is. (That's why an AMD 2.6 ghz can beat out an Intel 3 ghz, because it's more efficient per clock cycle).

Btw Zircon, you say "3d modeling apps use hardware mode." The only way to directly access the hardware under the windows environment without installing "fake drivers" onto the system is with OpenGL or DirectX. DirectX handles transformation, lighting, and rasterization. The program tells DirectX what to do, DirectX does it. The program does not. (Yes, I've programmed it before a little bit)

So therefore, games and 3d modeling apps alike are using much of the same code, which is all run by the processor.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 17, 2004, 09:53:40 AM
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Btw Zircon, you say "3d modeling apps use hardware mode." The only way to directly access the hardware under the windows environment without installing "fake drivers" onto the system is with OpenGL or DirectX. DirectX handles transformation, lighting, and rasterization. The program tells DirectX what to do, DirectX does it. The program does not. (Yes, I've programmed it before a little bit)

So therefore, games and 3d modeling apps alike are using much of the same code, which is all run by the processor.

*sigh* Ok, let me answer that with a couple of questions.

1: If that is the case why not use the graphic card, it should give a tremendous boost?

2: How come AMD processors perform badly in 3d modelling applications even when they render a scene without raytracing options (in other words no hyperthreading) ?
 
(The normal scanline renderer doesn't have hyperthreading support)

3: Why are opengl and directx the only accesss points (communicators), what about Mesa, QuickDraw 3D,  Reality Lab,  BRender and RenderWare. They may be old but they are independent and have no connection with either opengl or directx, (mesa = opengl clone) Is it an impossibility that discreet developed their own API in order to "talk" with the hardware? and isn't that one of the reasons why 3dsmax can switch between the mac and pc or does the mac use directx (think not), that only leaves us with opengl which i doubt is "sophisticated" enough.

4: If directx x can be explained in three simple steps transformation, lighting, and rasterization is there no other difference between directx9 and directx1 other then optimisations?

5:  "Why the heck did you do the initial renderer development as a Render Effect?
In 3DStudio MAX, a plugin renderer is required to do much more than just render the scene.  A plugin renderer is responsible for enumerating the entire scene, sub-system sequencing, bitmap writing, gbuffer management, etc, etc.  It must force each object to generate a valid mesh, generate all the vertex normals including smoothing group processing, generate all the shadowmaps, create a complete and valid g-buffer, trigger the set up of all auto-reflect style maps, etc.  While this is certainly doable, and the prototype Max 1.2 ray trace texture actually did much of this, it is an incredible amount of tedious (and potentially buggy) code to deal with when one is trying to proof of concept a renderer.  As a developer, it can be very difficult to tell if it is the scene enumeration, or actual rendering that is broken when a problem arises.  In many ways, this huge speedbump in development is what has kept us, and likely many others, from experimenting with actual renderer code in Max.

Render Effects on the other hand, is the perfect place to hang a prototype renderer.  Why?  A Render Effect is a very simple plugin to implement, and when its single method Apply() is called by Max, it gets handed three things, a complete and valid enumerated scene, a bitmap, and a handle to the render progress dialog.  That's all you need.  The enumerated scene is in the form of a single C++ object called the RenderGlobalContext, and contains the entire scene, with prepped shadow maps, meshs, etc. ready to go, and the bitmap contains a valid g-buffer, handily prerendered by the Default Scanline Renderer.  The bitmap itself is the VFB.  In other words, a developer can focus totally on the task of generating an image, which is the real purpose behind writing a renderer.  The rendering technology can be incrementally implemented, with much less concern about compatibility.

The Render Effect API is much closer to the way Renderer plugins should have been implemented, with the scene enumerator being a separate plugin altogether.  Had this been the case, I suspect there probably would have been many more renderer plugins developed over the years.  If anyone out there wants to experiment with writing a renderer for MAX, steer clear of Renderer plugins during your prototyping phase, and head for Render Effects.  You will be far less frustrated.

Also, for us (Scott and Steve), working this way provided a convenient place to delineate our coding responsibilities for these early stages of development.  One developer can focus on the core rendering/rayserver tech, and the other can focus on the scene enumeration tech, and we don't need to sync code nearly as much.

Brazil does not require DirectX and is not supported under Windows 98."

Is splutterfish (Brazils creator) lying?
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: BlackBox on June 17, 2004, 01:02:45 PM
In reference to it running on Macs: The code is really different, obviously. They have their own method to do stuff like that.
That's besides the point anyway. Macs don't have Intel or AMD processors in them, now do they?

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Is it an impossibility that discreet developed their own API in order to "talk" with the hardware?
Windows won't let the program directly communicate with the hardware. User mode software can't touch kernel mode or the actual physical components directly, except thru drivers.
And 3dsmax never installed drivers onto my system when I installed it, so the only way to do it is thru software, then blitting using the Win GDI, or thru an interface like DirectX, OpenGL which do install drivers on the system.
(and yes there are other HAL's like those two, but those two just happen to be the most common)

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If that is the case why not use the graphic card, it should give a tremendous boost?
Because DirectX decides what the graphics card does and what the software does, based on what it thinks are the hardware capabilities. The program could also be designed to use an older version of DirectX or be designed to use software only.

(If you've ever programmed using DirectX, you know what I mean)

That Brazil renderer doesn't mention the hardware at all. From the looks of it it could be doing the rendering in memory, then using the Windows GDI (note: Op2 uses GDI in windowed mode, if you don't know what I mean) to blit the result to the screen. No H/W needed, but slower.

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4: If directx x can be explained in three simple steps transformation, lighting, and rasterization is there no other difference between directx9 and directx1 other then optimisations?

3D is not the only part of DirectX. there are many different segments of DirectX. For example:
Direct 3d Retained mode - simple 3d renderer, slower
Direct 3d Immediate mode - faster but more complex renderer
DirectDraw - 2d drawing operations
DirectSound - sound, 3d sound
DirectInput - input from mouse, keyboard, joystick, handles Force feedback
DirectPlay - standard networking/lobby interface
DirectMusic - MIDI player in DirectX
DirectShow - Video player in DirectX

Therefore updates may be upgrades to one part and not others.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 17, 2004, 02:09:02 PM
How come you avoided the most important one of them all #2 ?
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 17, 2004, 03:25:08 PM
Yay!!! It's coconut monkey. I've been waiting for you to join us :D. Coco knows his stuff B)
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: RedXIII on June 17, 2004, 04:03:06 PM
Well, not being as technically skilled as you people, I can tell one thing about experiance with AMD/Intel processors. AMD Processors burn out a lot more quickly than Intel. Not only that, but I asked a friend of mine, a comp specialist, who even said that he seen that a few years down the road, AMD Processors tend to start having problems due to deterioration caused by something (He was not sure weither it was heat or what-not).

Intel's processors may be sub-par in raw speed, but I would not like to have my hardware malfunctioning down the road. Especially if something ends up sapping me of all my cash and I am unable to purchase a new computer.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Coconut Monkey on June 18, 2004, 12:44:07 AM
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op2hacker & Zircon - (http://forums.pcpowerplay.com.au/images/smiles/icon_duel.gif)
Wait.....what are you guys arguing about now? Is is still about 3d rendering programs using the video card or not for the final render frame? :D
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Well, not being as technically skilled as you people, I can tell one thing about experiance with AMD/Intel processors. AMD Processors burn out a lot more quickly than Intel. Not only that, but I asked a friend of mine, a comp specialist, who even said that he seen that a few years down the road, AMD Processors tend to start having problems due to deterioration caused by something (He was not sure weither it was heat or what-not).

Intel's processors may be sub-par in raw speed, but I would not like to have my hardware malfunctioning down the road. Especially if something ends up sapping me of all my cash and I am unable to purchase a new computer.
I have yet to see such deterioration. I wouldn't be surprised if the problem has more to do with insufficient cooling, incorrectly installing it, or lack of maintenance. If this problem does in fact exist, you have to ask yourself this - what computer user would stick with a single CPU for that long? Obviously those with an extremely limited budget or lesser needs (word processing, emailing), but those kinds of people would probably buy an Intel, if you think about it. Gamers in the know tend to buy AMD products due to their superior performance in 3d gaming, and they certainly would not hang on to the same processor for their main gaming box for 3 years.
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 18, 2004, 05:14:12 AM
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op2hacker & Zircon - (http://forums.pcpowerplay.com.au/images/smiles/icon_duel.gif)
Wait.....what are you guys arguing about now? Is is still about 3d rendering programs using the video card or not for the final render frame? :D
:blush: I've wondered that as well...

The intitial "debate" was how the AMD performed in 3d modelling applications and if the graphics card had anything to do with the rendering.
After a lot of piethrowing it seemed settled, graphics cards has nada (nothing) to do with it (exception: quadro, gelato, softmodded geforce) and AMD processors perform badly in such applications.

This area entered now is simply the gut need of one person wanting to prove me wrong by dragging me into an area i know hardly nothing of, but we're probably both wandering the dark because if it is as "simple" (not literally speaking) and the thing is rendered in memory alone it would be both inefficient and slow. Somehow they solve it and somehow the superior AMD (for games) perform badly even though it "uses the same code"  :find: (nitpicks: even without hyperthreading ofcourse)
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Oprime on June 18, 2004, 10:04:54 AM
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I have yet to see such deterioration.

That's right. The friend that I mentioned earlier that owns a computer repair store sells 7 year old AMD K6 pulls and they work fine.

As far as I can tell it seems that all is settled. We have discussed many topics and many different processors. Intel is good for (I'll admit it) 3d Rendering and basic stuff <--> AMD is good for games and many other things that require raw power. Does anybody think there is more to be discussed?
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: xamlit on June 21, 2004, 02:35:58 PM
Sorry Zircon but Pixar is not switching and dose not intend to switch. If you remember the CEO and founder of Pixar is Steve Jobs a.k.a CEO and founder of Apple. Do you really think that Pixar is going to switch? Ever?
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: Zircon on June 23, 2004, 04:56:12 AM
1: I haven't said that they have switched, i said they were in the process of switching.

2: First some background information: Renderman is the renderer Pixar uses, it was built by them and has been used since toy story 1 but has had many revisions, it has won a lot of prices and it is considered to be one of the finest renderers there is and to be pixars greatest accomplishment.

Now for the point: While the renderer (RenderMan® Pro Server™ 11.5) itself can be run on a mac, the The RenderMan® Artist Tools™  6.0 made for use with the renderer can't be run on a mac.

3: Just because you are the founder of one thing doesn't mean you cant use someone elses work even your worst enemy. Just look at microsoft and linux...

4: While im sure that the mac will continue to be used for certain aspects in studios like pixar the rest is switching sides. It's a best out of two worlds solution.

In essence, yes i believe so...
Title: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
Post by: bluesphx on July 21, 2004, 07:24:52 PM
AMD B)