Outpost 2: Revamp

[CK9]

With that in mind, it seems rather curious that players who prefer eden would choose to play on a smaller map.

[Highlander]

Most maps has decent defensive positions, which outweighs the distance offered in larger maps.

[CK9]

And therefore it is easily arguable that the microwave blitzkrieg is not nearly as effective in practice as it is in theory.  Looking at the numbers, it definately looks like mics overwhelm lasers.  once you take the map into account, though, you see the potential for lasers to hold out and fend off attacks.  Even on smaller maps, the defender has faster reinforcing time than the attacker.  That combined with the natural defences (and the occasional case of a cliff that a laser can shoot down from on top of...strange occurance that I have personally whitnessed in the plym campeign) makes it possible to survive the attack long enough to get the next weapon tier and stop them in their tracks.  Yes, it would take some practice to get it right, but it wouldn't be impossible.

[TH300]

And therefore it is easily arguable that the microwave blitzkrieg is not nearly as effective in practice as it is in theory.  Looking at the numbers, it definately looks like mics overwhelm lasers.  once you take the map into account, though, you see the potential for lasers to hold out and fend off attacks.

You claim, you're talking about practice, whereas everything you say is theory.

I saw micro rushes defeating Eden. Clearly, player skills may have been different, but it is at least some practical observation that supports my argument.

[CK9]

Yes, we have all seen the micro rushes overwhelm, and just about every time I have seen that it was a very unbalanced fight where the stronger player took out a weaker player.  I have also seen circumstances where the two were much closer in skill and eden did push back plym because of the volume of laser lynx they were able to produce.

Furthermore, with the effect of bottlenecking (as I experienced in a game agains Fiologist), which can be created artificially fairly quickly if none exist naturally (not saying you will always get it done in time, just that you will sometimes be able to if you start right away) it is possible to fend them off even if both sides have the same number of units.

Granted, most people instantly destroy walls when they come up to them.  However, this is yet another thing that will temporarily delay them, giving you more time to get closer to bringing emp into the fight.

[Highlander]

Look.

Players are the same.
# of units are the same.
1 unit is twice as strong as the other.
Bottlenecks can in most cases be circumvented.

- If every factor is the same, except the unit strenght, then it's GG for the lasers.
Creating walls limits you in other ways because it takes time, attention and ore. Which gives your attacking opponent the lead in the match and you will be forced to follow up on what he does.


And it's never Micro vs Lasers only. Plymouth has Stickyfoam as well. Either you damage units from afar, get them stickied. Then either your opponent will pull back and you can destroy the stickied units, or he rallies his units around the stickied units and you can sticky his army and go around it, or attack it from the most convenient angle.


If a Micro rush goes wrong against a Eden player, it's usually because the Plymouth player messes up, rather than the Eden player doing something right.

[CK9]

If building walls distracts you from development, you're doing it wrong.  By the very nature of how the games does things, you are left with pockets of time during which you are waiting.  Even if these are a second each, you can get a wall-made bottleneck up without taking a serious hit to your development time.

Circumventing a bottleneck takes time: Either they need to take the long way around to another opening or they need to shoot the wall down.  These both give you more time to build up more units and, because thisis at your base, you will have more effective units at any one time if you and your opponent are building at the same rate.

Stickyfoam still has the same hinderence of all vehicles: they have fire delay.  Splitting your units into three groups to defend the opening gives you a chance to strike stickyfoam units as they come in to hit you.  If plym is whack-a-moleing the unit, they aren't producing new units as effectively.  Since you will more than likely have the factor(ies) close to the opening, you can keep an eye on units while building more.

[TH300]

The advantage of having factories close when defending your own base is not as big as you may think on small maps like Pie. The time it takes to move a lynx from base 1 to base 2 is probably no longer than it takes to produce two lynxes in one vf. Hence, even if the defending player has 2 vfs, he/she would have 4 more lynxes than the attacker. For exmaple, Plymouth could attack with 12 micros and Eden could defend with 16 lasers, i.e. numbers would be 3:4 for the attacker. But due to microwave being twice as strong as laser (didn't check that claim), overall strengths would be 3:2 Plymouth vs Eden.

The natural bottlenecks on Pie are rather useless against small armies (unless you can defend them with Stickies). Walls are destroyed quickly: The time that destruction of 2 wall tiles takes is no longer than the time that it takes for the attacker's tanks to gather next to the destroyed wall. And if the defender is serious about building walls and makes one really thick, that will be a distraction.

Not to mention that walls can be a pain if you need to expand beyond the wall. I.e. the Plymouth player can always decide to expand his base instead of rushing, while the Eden player would be trapped inside his base (assuming the situation from above, where the Eden player builds walls for defence).

[CK9]

But on pie, players mostly try to hold the center rather than push forward.  Of course, this is mainly true in team situations because of the multiple fronts...

As to walls, I've had several games where I was able to get very thick walls without it taking away from my development.  Granted, I tend to be slower than everyone else as it is.  However, it stands to reason that someone who takes time to practice it can get a decent defensive position in the time it takes to get enough mics to have an effective rush.

With regards to expansion, it's no more of a pain than normal.  The speed of the vehicles is the same, the kits are not affected, and you still have the tube going through either way.  The only thing that it has an impact on is moving large numbers of units through.

[Highlander]

Let's take 4 maps that are played a bit. Pie, Root, Frac's, AtW.

Pie has a good defensive position. 2 Entrances.
Root has 4 good def positions on the cliffs. 2 Entrances
Frac has cliffs as well. 3 Entrances at least to all base locations.
AtW, open, except for the Fort. Fort has 5 entrances.

Only on Frac and AtW would distance come into play. However, on both maps, the amount of entrances makes it hard to set up a proper defensive position

On both Pie and Root, it would take some time to go around, but not much more than 1 min topmost.
Not enough time to build up so you can defend both entrances at once.

On both Pie and Root, walling yourself in your base, saves you for the moment. But it gives you opponent free access to all the ore on the map. In addition, the bottleneck becomes "his" in terms of advantage, when you try to break out.


If you need twice as much weaponry as your opponent, why do you spend ore on other stuff than weaponry ? Building walls cost ore  after all..

I'm not sure any of us can persuade you in this matter CK.. Would you prefer a practical demonstration of what I'm trying to explain ? We can put down the game speed to compensate for any skill differences..

[CK9]

My favorite base location on Fractures (80% chance of common ore being 3-bar) has only 2 entrances.  One of these is a natural 1-tile bottleneck, but the location is not on top of the cliff (but that's only a problem late-game).

On one version of root (why there are two versions is beyond me, but they are different game modes...) has 4 build spots with a single entrance each.

Around the World has a few locations that are slightly more defensible than you give them credit for, but yes overall that map does lack in defensive positions.

On pie, walling yourself in is just a strategy to get over the hump.  It isn't a long-term thing.  The cost of walls (I think it's 50 each? or is it tubes 50, walls 75?) is easily compensated for with the proper mine setup.  The single-minded approach of putting everything into one thing  is not a good approach.

Game speed won't have a lot of impact in skill difference, especially in a case where one person knows the tech tree a lot better than the other.  If I were to see two people objectively testing it though, I would take it into consideration.

Do you guys mind if I separate this discussion from the thread and move it into the debate section?  It seems we've allowed ourselves to hijack the thread with it, lol.

[lordpalandus]

An interesting idea to patch up the game. My question is, is it even possible to build a patch for it. Is anyone here knowledgeable enough to do it (I'm not).

If it was able to be done I'd suggest (My changelog; bit long):
-> Make it more randomized on where and when a disaster will strike.
-> Queues would be awesome. Early game its not a huge problem, but mid-late game it becomes difficult to manage building kits, building units, research, and combat all at the same time (and by that I mean you generally just choose one of the above)
-> Would be nice if you could have a Set Buildpoint (ie you build a unit and it travels to the location)
-> Would be nice if the ConVec would return back to the structure factory AFTER it built a building, so that you don't have to hunt around for the ConVec later (that is when you don't have a Robot Command Center)
-> Would be nice if Lava Walls lasted longer or were permanent. Also be nice if Microbe Walls lasted longer or were permanent.
-> Would be nice if when you loaded a unit onto a garage platform it would automatically load it inside to repair and then automatically unload it.
-> Would be nice if the script was removed that makes turrets randomly explode, when they aren't hit by a disaster or an enemy unit.
-> Would be nice if you could continue playing in a Colony Game after you reach the objective. Also, would be nice if you could continue playing after you launch a starship PROVIDED you had enough scientists leftover.
-> Would be nice if the class size for a university was increased from 10 to say 15.
-> Would be nice if having more than 1 nursery actually increased Child growth rate.
-> Would be nice if there was a conventional missile for Plymouth, that simply did say 1500 damage in a small radius, that would be launched from the spaceport.
-> Would be more realistic if there was a food supply capacity per agridome.
-> Would be great if a Spider could repair units up to 100% of maximum HP. Also be able to repair fellow Spiders and Scorpions.
-> Would be great if certain Techs had research tiers (ie you could research Environmental Psychology 3 times and each time increases maximum residents at the Residence and Adv/Reinf Residence by 10)

As far as units and weapons goes, I'd say leave them alone
 

[Hooman]

I have to admit, the idea of increased automation has occurred to me a few times. Particularly with research, building deployment, auto garage loading/unloading, and perhaps vehicle production too. Mind you, that would seem to change the nature of the game. You can also take things too far. I once came across an RPG "game" that was totally automated. There was nothing for the player to do. They just loaded up the game, and watched the computer play it by itself. There was no way for the player to actually interact with the game. I suppose it was meant more as a statement of sorts than to be an actual game, but it does kind of make you think.

I think the damaging missile idea would be really bad. If a Plymouth player stocked up on missiles, they could take out all their opponent's CCs in one go, with no chance for their opponent to repair them.

I kind of like the agridome idea, to an extent. I feel food is often not as much of a worry as it should be. Granted, you need to make allowances for land rush games where the player starts without any agridomes. I think something like that could be handled by having a certain base food amount, that you always have storage space for. That would allow land rush games to work. Plus, even if all your agridomes are destroyed, it still takes a while for your population to feel the food crunch and start starving to death. If gives someone at least a little bit of time to save their people, who I'm sure aren't all eating 24x7 anyway.


The non-exploding guard post idea was discussed before. I don't recall any consensus on it though.


As for actually doing these..., well, there's the time it would take, but there's also the issue whether people would accept the changes. Some people might not want changed behavior to the default game. How would this be addressed?
 

[CK9]

I agree that automation is a bit difficult to balance in this game.  One thing that could help is limit it to something along the lines of factories only continuing to produce the same item over and over.  However, my discussion with th and high makes me think that would only compound existing problems.

Back during the WON days, some people brought up the idea of damaging AOE missile, creating images for their ideas.  I think most of us agreed that emp missiles where bad enough as it is and ones that could do physical damage would be too much.

I think the novellas talk about the agridomes and command center having a certain storage capacity...it could potentially add another element to the strategy of the game, but it also might not do anything...

turrets randomly exploding?  I know that, if they are damaged enough, they do explode at random because of the damage...I've never seen one explode for no reason, though...

I *think* tech teirs are an idea that would be possible to include, seeing as we can make custom tech trees for missions.

...and I might have just killed my power adapter, lol

anyone able to confirm any of these things?

[Hooman]

Yes, your power adapter is dead.  
 

[TH300]

Edit: If we are serious about this, we should organize this a bit better. Maybe create a new forum section and have one topic per idea.

is it even possible to build a patch for it. Is anyone here knowledgeable enough to do it (I'm not).

Depends on what shall be done. Some changes will be easy, some will be more difficult and some will be (almost) impossible. We can certainly not change everything. But if there is enough incentive to change one thing, however hard that is, chances are that we can do it. When I say "we", I am mostly talking about Hooman who knows the most about Outpost2's internals. I know a little bit and a few other people know a little bit.

Generally, there are two categories for changes: changes of the interface and gameplay changes. I am putting your ideas into those categories:

interface

-> Queues would be awesome. Early game its not a huge problem, but mid-late game it becomes difficult to manage building kits, building units, research, and combat all at the same time (and by that I mean you generally just choose one of the above)

I find that multitasking in the beginning is as difficult as later in the game. But only later in the game will queues really help. As I stated before, I am all for queues.

-> Would be nice if you could have a Set Buildpoint (ie you build a unit and it travels to the location)

+1

-> Would be nice if the ConVec would return back to the structure factory AFTER it built a building, so that you don't have to hunt around for the ConVec later (that is when you don't have a Robot Command Center)

Sometimes I find it quite useful when ConVecs stay at the last thing they built., for example when building outposts.

-> Would be nice if when you loaded a unit onto a garage platform it would automatically load it inside to repair and then automatically unload it.

+1

-> Would be nice if you could continue playing in a Colony Game after you reach the objective. Also, would be nice if you could continue playing after you launch a starship PROVIDED you had enough scientists leftover.

+1


gameplay

-> Make it more randomized on where and when a disaster will strike.

That part belongs to the individual missions, i.e. the disasters in mission XY are entirely defind by the dll file that belongs to mission XY. Hence I'd leave that decision to mission creators.

-> Would be nice if Lava Walls lasted longer or were permanent. Also be nice if Microbe Walls lasted longer or were permanent.

That would make certain missions too easy. No.

-> Would be nice if the script was removed that makes turrets randomly explode, when they aren't hit by a disaster or an enemy unit.

I always wondered why gps explode and tanks don't. The fact that gps explode is the most important reason why I don't use gps.

-> Would be nice if the class size for a university was increased from 10 to say 15.

unneeded.

-> Would be nice if having more than 1 nursery actually increased Child growth rate.

I always found it strange that one nursery is enough for a colony of any size. Not sure if your solution is the right answer to that, though. We could also introduce a nursery demand similar to the residence demand.

-> Would be nice if there was a conventional missile for Plymouth, that simply did say 1500 damage in a small radius, that would be launched from the spaceport.

clearly no.

-> Would be more realistic if there was a food supply capacity per agridome.

maybe. But if we wanted to be realistic, food would also be stored in residences and in command centers. So, maybe, we could assign food storage capacities to all buildings. Colonists should possibly be able to carry a limited amount of food, e.g. 100 each.

-> Would be great if a Spider could repair units up to 100% of maximum HP. Also be able to repair fellow Spiders and Scorpions.

Not sure about that. Garages have to remain useful.

-> Would be great if certain Techs had research tiers (ie you could research Environmental Psychology 3 times and each time increases maximum residents at the Residence and Adv/Reinf Residence by 10)

sounds boring and is not needed.

[lordpalandus]

Well from my OP, If I had to choose only a couple things that would be less controversial it would be:

-> Vehicle Build Point (Built vehicles travel to the location)
-> Remove exploding Guard Posts (And yes I've seen it happen a lot; sometimes damaged, sometimes undamaged; for the undamaged I make sure they weren't hit by a minor earthquake or a meteor right beforehand)

(If only one extra queue is added, there is still some micromanagement involved but a fair bit less)

-> Research Tree Automation (Can set beforehand a single extra research topic that will start after the current is finished; must add another to the queue)
-> Vehicle Factory Automation (Gets a single extra queue added to it; ie you are building a Lynx Laser, and then add to the queue a Cargo Truck; both gets built once)
-> Structure Factory Automation (Gets a single extra queue to build a structure kit)

By extra queue I don't mean it can build two units at the same time, just that a second unit will be built immediately after the first one.

[CK9]

Hooman, you are correct sir!  I did indeed kill my power adapter...good thing a new one is almost here

I'm a bit confused on how an undamaged GP is exploding...I personally have never witnessed this happen under any difficulty setting, and I have always used GP's a lot in defensive positions...does anyone have a vid of this or a code snippet that shows that this happens?

[lordpalandus]

I think its a timed lifetime thing. I've placed a turret down in a spot (Eden Starship Mission) away from direct combat, and most disasters. If you then play a regular game and leave it alone, it will eventually blow up.

[TH300]

Maybe your guard posts have been destroyed by a sneaky tornado.

You think it was away from most disasters, but you cannot be sure.

[lordpalandus]

I always check the Time Log to see if a disaster occured near or at that spot after seeing a building is destroyed regardless if it was a GP or not. Sometimes its a residence that got nailed by a Huge Meteor.

[lordpalandus]

Also, for a post of patching out problems how'd it devolve into a battleground between microwave lynxs being better than laser lynxs?

I do agree that Late-Game plymouth is hard pressed due to the trouble of getting a SuperNova into the combat. A tiger Starflare or Supernova is great only for stationary targets. I think the Devs thought that this would work great against Acid+Lightning, but the SuperNova is one use and if its destroyed before it reaches its mark its resources wasted.

I also agree early game that Plymouth does have an advantage against Eden. Now I'm sure that you guys can figure out some strategy that Eden could use to win against Plymouth otherwise you'd never play against a Plymouth player as Eden on a small-nondefensible map. For example is it more time and cost efficient to build a wall of laser turrets (close together so that fire overlaps) than to go for Laser Lynxes early game? Especially as if they are connected to the command center by several paths, wouldn't that overcome its ROF shortcomings for the early game? And as Stickyfoam does non-existent damage to turrets?

[CK9]

It is VERY rare to see anyone play as eden on maps like piechart.

I've used walls of unupgraded mic gp's in the past to hold back rushes of upgraded mics, but I personally prefer playing as plym because I like sneaking supernovas into bases.
Considering you can start building gp's significantly sooner (and arguably faster) than lynx's, that could be a viable solution.  GP's can't be sticky-lured into destruction, and sticky's need to get within range of the GP's in order to do significant damage.

I have a feeling you got hit with a traveling disaster (electrical storm or vortex) and had a damage-induced explosion.  

[Freeza-CII]

totally useless and maybe not possible but remove the nova and flare gps. seems like a waste of space i have never seen any one use them.

GP's can't be sticky-lured into destruction, and sticky's need to get within range of the GP's in order to do significant damage.

if i remember right the splash damage from stickies puts stickies out side the range of damage and can kill a gp with out ever being fired upon. unless its a gp with a simular aoe effect such at esg and acid cloud or sticky itself. but even then you have to manually fire them.

Tubes.
I know tubes were talked about. Is it a option to make tubes have there colony color on them just a single stripe perhaps nothing like the beta picture where it has those nodes with the color.

[lordpalandus]

On the subject of tubes, couple questions:
-> I know that tubes are indestructible but in the Sheets.Vol, building.txt file (believe its the one) it says it has HP and could be destroyed. But ingame they are indestructible unless destroyed by an Earthworker.
-> In some of the ingame demos you see colonies that don't need tubes to connect the buildings... I wonder why that is.
-> Finally, I hate how removing a tube by an earthworker causes it to lose about 40% of its HP. Would love if it was patched that an earthworker DIDNT lose health when it removes a tube. Or at least increase the health of an Earthworker so that it can remove more than 3 tubes before dying.