Author Topic: Locomotion  (Read 9156 times)

Offline Combine Crusier

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Locomotion
« on: June 01, 2007, 08:25:40 AM »
Classifications:
Wheeled
Tracked
Legged
propeller
jet
helicopter

Animals that have other potential forms.
Snake
Snail
bird
humming bird
gopher
jelly fish
caterpillar
bumble bee
leech?
armodillo?

Just to name some examples and ways of locomotion.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 08:38:01 AM by Combine Crusier »
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 12:52:57 AM »
Eh what the hell?

Offline Psudomorph

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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 09:08:17 PM »
I think he is trying to summarize the different possible forms of locomotion and real-life parallels for easy reference.

I personally don't think its needed, but I can't blame people for trying to consolidate some of the disparate thoughts in the OP3 forums. I've been tempted to do it myself at times, but always figured any attempt I made would contribute more to the clutter than detract from it.

Possible Suggestions:

-Categorize by how thoroughly discussed a particular type has been, as well as a note if they have been repeatedly shot down (air units)

-Provide links to major topics related to each locomotion type (For example http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=3743 under the "legged" category)

My thoughts on each item on the list:

Snake, Snail, caterpillar- An interesting idea, but it strikes me more as a curiosity than as a practical alternative to existing modes. The colony has limited resources, and are not likely to waste them developing something that is not in some way substantially better than the current methods.

bird, humming bird, bumble bee- Be very careful about things that fly. A lot of people seem to think that units with the power of flight could ruin the fun of gameplay in more ways than I care to try to list.

gopher- Robo-moles already have pretty good tunneling abilities, why change from that? The general concept of underground movement does seem rather untapped though... Hmm, a robo-mole with a starflare attached to it...

jelly fish- Depends on whether the planet has liquid mediums in which to travel. Even then, I think the snake/snail/caterpillar note applies. Why do it the jellyfish way when the propeller way works better?

leech?armodillo?- Cannot offer informed opinion.

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 01:16:18 AM »
All the forms but the legs (which is still being debated) and the jelly fish have been tossed out the window.  If this stuff keeps being brought back up time after time.  Ater it has already been rejected.  The threads will be closed or the person will start to find out they cant make a thread any more.  Ideas are Ideas but dont keep pushing them.

As for the Jelly fish.  There is no reason to have a liquid medium unit as there will most likely not be any large free standing bodies of water bigger then a swimming pool.

Under ground units have already been shot down early as people didnt want the brotherhood of nod in op3.

Offline Combine Crusier

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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 08:25:04 AM »
The reason I began pushing on the snails form of locomotion is because it could have heavier armor and it's movement systems wouldn't be exposed to the elements. (Movement mechanisms can't be shot, IE treads can't be broke or wheels torn apart.)

I was told that the armodillo can move by curlling itself into a ball and rool which I thought would be an interesting (and fast) form of movement.

I was wondering how the leech and jellyfish move?
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Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2007, 02:19:56 PM »
Leeches would stick to a unit until it realized it had no weapon and would fall off and kill itself to end its shame.

Last time I checked, Venus-like planets have surface temperatures of 400/500 degrees Celcius.  A bit hot for water. So no need for jellyfish.

And see what Freeza said.
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 03:24:02 PM »
Quote
The reason I began pushing on the snails form of locomotion is because it could have heavier armor and it's movement systems wouldn't be exposed to the elements. (Movement mechanisms can't be shot, IE treads can't be broke or wheels torn apart.)
 
You could do the same thing with wheels. Put them underneath so they would be protected.

Let alone I still don't get how gastropod locomotion could be applied to machines (aside from the fact that it would be very uneconomical).

Quote
I was told that the armodillo can move by curlling itself into a ball and rool which I thought would be an interesting (and fast) form of movement.

Maybe interesting but it would be inefficient, and probably not super fast either. The only reasonable way I could see it working would be the use of a weight attached to a bar which is allowed to hang. The weight is moved and the vehicle rolls due to the shifting of the center of mass (basically it's relying on gravity to work).

Going up hills with it would waste a huge amount of energy though, it would be easier to use wheels or tracks in that situation.

Quote
I was wondering how the leech and jellyfish move?

For the 1000th time, please do research _before_ posting. Wikipedia is a pretty good source for background knowledge about something like this.

I think the main thing is, you need to remember that this is not a fantasy game. Machines cannot suddenly transform into balls or move like animals can. The game involves technology that exists perhaps 50-150 years from now.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 03:27:56 PM by op2hacker »

Offline Combine Crusier

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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2007, 08:23:56 AM »
Wait a second!!!!

A form of catapulting mechanism could be used to launch a curled up armidilo vehicle up or down a cliff or even over a lava flow! If the armidilo had the convec package it could construct biulding on the other side.

More animals that can move in strange ways:
Flea: Scorpion MK.II is a variant of this moment form
(http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=3651)
Tick:
Squid:
Catapillar:
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 08:31:45 AM by Combine Crusier »
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2007, 10:44:10 AM »
No way in hell.

Offline TRIX Rabbit

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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2007, 01:08:12 PM »
The only forms of locomotion that are efficient and viable are Wheels, Treads, And Legs

Wheeled- Excellent for most vehicles that need to deliver, construct, preform maintanence, etc. This is probably the best type of locomotion due to it's low relative cost, as well as being fast and somewhat durable. Plus the wheel has been in development for thousands of years, and not much improvement can be made to the wheel itself.

Treads- When you have a heavy duty vech, one that has alot of power, but does not need to move fast, treads are great. They may need more maintenance, but they have superior traction to wheels. Unfortunatly, they can damper the speed,  have a higher cost, and are usually used by heavyweight vechs.

Legged- Legs do not change speed depending on the terrain, but they can only carry a chassis that is very, very light. They are slower than wheels, but faster than treads. Each leg either requires a seperate engine/motor, or a complex system that distibutes power.

as for the other forms of locomotion, the only really viable one is flight, but it would require a thick atmosphere (new terra dosent, so flight was unavailable), and the thicker, the better.

I think a better idea for an armadillo is a small, heavy armor, slow moving vehicle that can curl to reduce damage. It still is vulnerable to emp or sticky or acid, but cannot roll. It should be equipped with a light weapon to make it less uber.

I still think its a stupid idea tho.
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Offline Psudomorph

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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2007, 11:29:35 PM »
======Leech======

I've seen a leech vehicle before in a space combat game called Homeworld: Cataclysm.
The idea is that the leech ship is tiny, and virtually invisible to standard sensors. It attaches itself to nearby ships, and either spies on enemy movements, or if you want to be aggressive, it silences any alarms/damage control routines on board the target, and begins eating away at the hull.
It is a slow process (In the area of several minutes to destroy most vessels), but it is an excellent tactical weapon, and can provide a decisive advantage if used when the enemy isn't paying attention.

I can see a leech-like vehicle being pursued, but I worry that it is not OPish, and of course that it could turn out to be just an uninspired ripoff.

======Catapult Armadillo======

I wonder if "The Catapult Armadillos" would be a good name for a rock band... ;)
Ahem... Anyway...

Would this thing hit the ground slowly enough to survive? Would it need parachutes or something? Most importantly: Could people use it in ways that would make the game not fun for other players?

This convec armadillo would allow the creation of bases in areas that could not be accessed without another armadillo. Once that happens, it is a slippery slope to the need for Very-Long-Range artillery weapons (already rejected) to lay siege to a colony created in an inaccessible area by armadillos, because once one colony is established, they can keep any other people from building their own foothold.

[Speaking for others]
I think the problem with that idea is closely tied to the opposition to air units, which is  itself part of a larger issue people have: They don't want weapons and vehicles separated from terrain obstacles. Consider, terrain is such a big part of strategy in the game, and can easily make or break your efforts, negating it in any way would completely change the game dynamic.
I believe this is what people are thinking, because it is something that so many shot-down ideas have in common: Air units, Artillery, Tunnelers, ultra-long-range missiles, they all seem to share one thing with each other and with your armadillo-pult: They would allow a player to circumvent terrain obstacles. Any vehicle that can ignore certain types of terrain for any period of time must be approached with utmost caution, because if one player gets it, then the other player needs a way to negate it's advantage, and before you know it the entire dynamic of the game is changed to either aerial armies, or duels of ultra-long-range missiles and artillery.

I think terrain in the OP world is meant to be an obstacle that can make or break you, and that cannot be circumvented with technology. That is where so much of the fun strategy comes from, and based on the responses I have read in this forum, it seems like a lot of people want to keep it that way, even if it means not being as realistic with weapons/vehicles/defenses as we could be.
[/speaking for others]

======Combine Cruiser======

[personal attack]
On a personal note, I think you should really make an attempt not to post so impulsively. My personal rule of thumb is to spend at least 2-3 days refining and analyzing an idea before posting it (99% of the time I find it has already been said, or wouldn't work anyway).
My way might be a little extreme, but come on, as of this writing, there are exactly 4 threads on the first page of this forum that were NOT started by you, and I bet if I took the time and effort to examine them, the majority of those threads would be of one of two categories:
1. Ideas that had already been discussed.
2. You proposing an idea, having it shot down, and then repeatedly trying to defend it by altering minor technicalities to get around each new objection.

I'm sorry to have to say it, but I've been wanting to get it off my chest ever since your arrival. I sensed that you would be like this when I read your very first threads, but I stayed politely silent in the hopes that you would either get bored and go away, or learn moderation.

You seem to me to be an impulsive poster who, either for lack of ability or motivation to do so, posts without consideration for anything other than the spur of the moment "I just had a great idea!" thought. Trust me you are not the only one on the internet, every forum has a person/people who post only because they want people to hear their cool-to-them ideas, and give little thought to whether it is truly a contribution that will be valuable to others, but it is much more noticeable on small and slow forums.

Once again, I'm sorry to attack you, but it really is getting irritating to me to come here every day and think "Oh god, another Combine Cruiser thread, what kind of poorly-thought-out idea will he have this time..."
[/personal attack]

Then again, what do I know? Maybe I have no right to tell you how to post. Maybe I'm just tired and cranky...

Eh, whatever. Take it for what you will. I'm going to bed.

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2007, 02:08:13 AM »
Tank Vs Tank combat you do not kill slow unless your a sticky foam.  Several minutes a Tiger Laser could own a few buildings.  Besides this should not be a set it and forget it game.  AKA Fire the leeches and wait for them to die.

The Armadillo is not a good idea.  Any thing that heavy lands its not getting back up.  Im sure some one smart could bring up the physics and spank any one sideways.

As far as legs are concerned They would use either Electrical or Hydraulic Rams/Actuators.  Nothing would be run off one motor.  Personally i would pic Electric Actuators. As there is no lines of highly flameble fluid going through out the walker.  

Offline CK9

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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2007, 09:11:42 PM »
legged robotics CAN hold heavier units IF the legs are designed right.  The main problem, though, is that it is difficult to find a good use for it that isn't already functioning just fine with another chasis.

but back on topic:
the only additional locomotion type I can really see being added is the monorail system that didn't translate over to OP2 from OP1.  even that would meet up with likely resistance, as it would be difficult to balance it out.
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2007, 10:19:21 PM »
Well, the only thing I have to say about tanks being thrown / dropped is -- it has been done before with the US military.

The M-551 Sheridan tank can be dropped from a C-130 (albeit very low altitude, and it is strapped to special pallets to help brace it for the impact). Oftentimes the tank won't work when they go to start it up.

Throwing one on the other hand is just not a plausible idea. These things weigh many tons and they can't be thrown. Please heed our suggestions and use common sense (and do research before posting. I don't know how many times we need to say this).

Offline Hawk

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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2007, 12:50:29 AM »
The Sheridan, which I don't know too much about, I'm assuming is a full size tank (50+ tons).  I'd imagine anyone nearby would feel a small tremor once that hit even with parachutes. The M2Ax Bradley Fighting Vehicle on the other hand is only 22 tons combat loaded and that's probably a dangerous drop with parachutes.  I've sent my Bradley airborne before, but my gunner and squad in the back didn't like that too kindly.  Not saying Tanks can't be dropped, but why bother?  If you have an LZ preped for an armor drop, why not just transport it via ... what's that chopper's name... the c-130 on rotor wings?  It'll come to me soon.

Since we're sticking to real world issues, let me point out that tracked vehicles can't pivot or make sharp turns in rocky or uneven terrain without the risk of throwing track (and that's not fun in a combat zone).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 12:53:00 AM by Hawk »
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2007, 12:00:33 AM »
Or they could just drive :D what a concept.  Any way All the air unit threads were shot down.  So there wont be any transports or probes or air born scouts.  Parts of the map are made in accessable for a reason.  That is the way it is get used to it.

Offline Combine Crusier

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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2007, 07:44:48 PM »
This thread was developed to express KINDs of locomotion and thus I will create a new thread that will disscus possible ideas for any vehicle that will use a strange form of movement...
 
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2007, 12:45:26 AM »
Im sorry but "strange forms of motion" are not very practical.  Or do i need to get a projector and show every one all the stupid ass flying machines people tryed to build to get into the air.

Offline Combine Crusier

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« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2007, 11:18:29 PM »
I have had a few thoughts in some other methods of moving vehicles (Don't blast me).

Grass Hopper - This could be a vehicle that moves by legged form but is capable of traversing long distances by jumping (Hydralic pistons super extend the legs creating a high speed, the impact would then countered by a air bag like thing that would deploy out the front of the vehicle.).

Flipper - No animal I know of does this but a legged unit could be designed so while on set of legs is on the ground the middle portion and the oppsing set of legs would flip over the set of legs on the ground. It's difficult to explain.

Rail Boat - Perhaps one of the strangest things I have posted this idea does have some benifits. Quiet simply, a set of rails would be attached to the vehicle by arms, the vehicle would secure itself to the ground and the arms would then move the rails forward after which the vehilce would release itself from the ground and move on the rails by a set of wheels. How would it turn? Simple,The vehicle would secure itself to the ground via a cylinder, raise the entire chassis up and rotate to the required direction. The benifit of thisis that you would lose no speed on any type of terrain except slopes.

Catterpiller - A vehicle could possibly be small but when ordered to move it could extend itself so the foward portion moved ahead and when it reached a certain distance it would touch the ground and the rear portion would catch up with the front.

(SIDE NOTE!!! I wonder if you could get something slippery like soap put under a vehicle and attach a large fan to the back of it like those hover boats?)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 11:23:40 PM by Combine Crusier »
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2007, 02:41:10 AM »
Rail Boat

First off why the hell is it called a boat.  and Second such a machine that uses wheels on tracks seems utterly useless and rube goldburg when it has to remove the tracks behind it and replace them infront to keep moving any one would have put normal tires on it in the first place to make it move and fire the rails at people.

Flipper Unit

We talked about this on IRC.  Wasnt good.  The way you want it to move is just not plausable for a unit.

Grass hopper

No only would this unit not jump.  If it did it would totally cause a impact crater.  The power you would need to jump some thing that heavy would basicly smash the legs into the ground or completely destroy the leg joints or legs themselfs.

Landing that much on a airbag wouldnt do a damn thing but make a poping sound followed by a large crunch of metal.  If you mention the mars prob.  The Mars prob was Light weight and tiny.  These Units would not be Light weight and tiny.

Catapiller

This unit is the only one that wouldnt fail.  I dont know if it is for OP3.  But with a Articulated body and Hydraulic/electic/pnuematic rams it would beable to move each of its segments and beable to go over terrain.

As said on IRC.  Instead of just posting these idea when they first come to your head Think them out look around see if any of it is possible.

And Stop posting with PLEASE DONT BASH OR BLAST ME.  its rather irritating.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2007, 10:23:22 AM »
Quote
Catapiller

This unit is the only one that wouldnt fail.  I dont know if it is for OP3.  But with a Articulated body and Hydraulic/electic/pnuematic rams it would beable to move each of its segments and beable to go over terrain.
Slugs/caterpillars/etc are all too Starcrafty (similar to the Protoss Reaver, which is so slow it's practically useless unless you use a Shuttle to carry it around, and it's been said many times we don't want air units in this game).

It would either have to be big, really slow, and heavily armored, or so small that your opponents could actually just turn it into New Terran roadkill.
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Offline Combine Crusier

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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2007, 10:51:42 AM »
Speaking of transportation it would be neat if you could load a scorpion sized vehicle into a cargo truck which would take it to another location and unload it.
If you looked in the novella it talked about a lynx being loaded on a cargo truck.
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Offline Mcshay

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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2007, 11:18:27 AM »
Thats an interesting idea. I think scorpions and spiders could use a transport vehicle. Perhaps it would have no sides to it (just a 'rack' for the arachnids to hook onto) and move at a similar speed to a panther. Because its sides are open it would be easy to kill, but fast enough to be useful for transporting the slow arachnids over long distances (and they would be easier to look after).

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2007, 11:24:51 AM »
Spiders and Scorpions move faster than Cargo Trucks and Panthers though.
Unless you upgrade the Trucks. Then Cargo Trucks are as fast as Scorpions, though Spiders are still faster.
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2007, 11:52:00 AM »
Why would you risk 2 units transporting it in a cargo truck when the unit can move itself.