Author Topic: Balancing OP2  (Read 5209 times)

Offline Leviathan

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Balancing OP2
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2005, 03:20:15 PM »
Likeing the suggestions but I think if we are to do any balancing edits they should only be small so Eden can make it thru the begining of a game in 1v1.

We shouldnt edit it too much, if we edit it at all, it should be small edits. And still thers the possiblity of keeping two versions seprate, edited and un edited, like has been suggested.

Offline Betaray

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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2005, 06:23:37 PM »
well the railgun sugestion would be the easist mod possible, simply remove or replace the reshurch requirment for the panther turret, hell even I, with my almost no programming experience could make that mod in 5 min

so instead of eden haveing to reshurch rare, adv vec power, adv combat chassis, and ind turret pwr sys, you would just have to get ind turrit pwr sys, and than you would rail guns

seems like a good way to counter stickys
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Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2005, 06:38:23 PM »
Railgun is just a wepaon, Sticky is so much more..

Offline Betaray

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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2005, 08:44:27 PM »
its better defence than lasers, and it can hit sticys at the same range as the styckies themselves

it would do better to help defend eden in the beginning

it may not be a long term mod, but for somthing that could be done quickly and easily I think its the best bet to balance it out before more sfistacated programs can be made
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Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2005, 02:09:57 AM »
I dont beleive at all that it would work to balance the teams.

If Ply goes Mic's, then Smelter Post, then Armor, then attacks Eden has no chanch of wining the battle.  

Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2005, 01:58:05 PM »
I don't think we should change the original game at all other than very very very basic edits that don't affect it much (if at all). Like the trade center requirements being lowered.

Changing weapons though I think is a bad idea and should be avoided. These types of changes can be done for individual levels if people want.

Offline Highlander

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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2005, 03:15:09 PM »
Getting a early Railgun will not solve the problem. While Railgun got a longer range than Lasers, and they do a little bit more damage, but the problem is again the fire rate of Micros.

Combined with Sticky's, Railgun will get stuck, and singled out by the Plymouth player.

In addition Railgun is more expensive than than Lasers/Micros, so Plymouth still has the edge..
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Offline Drakmar

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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2005, 08:13:30 PM »
You could always TEMPORARILY reduce the price. Then once the Panther Research is complete, the price would go back up.

Offline Highlander

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« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2005, 06:19:32 AM »
Well, Drak, think that one through a little bit more.

To get other weapons you'll have to go through panther research first. So you'll end up with a normal Rail Gun, and maybe you have time to get EMP research.

Plymouth opposition just has to mass up Micro/Sticky/EMP's and wait until Eden player starts throwing out EMP's before he hits, because then Rails will be expensive, Eden player will be short on ore because trying to reach Rare Ore.

 
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Offline Hawk

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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2005, 07:45:34 AM »
Like Lev stated, the sticky is much more than the rail gun.  The rail gun tends get indirect hits causing less than full damage inflicted on mobile targets.  Like High stated, lasers and micros have a faster firing rate and are cheaper.  Hell, in some games, I've been known to use tiger mics over rpgs because they fire so fast it makes my M240B jealous.

Eden can make things interesting on long 6 player games.  Usually one side remains mobile and loose while the other digs in under an umbrella of meter defense.

Being in the sandbox, I can't exactly play OP.  It seems to me that the problem is that those who do play, would rather change the rules of the game, rather than make the rules work for you.  Examples are getting vehicles in the mountains, destroying your opponent without "touching" them (http://wonbirdsofprey.tripod.com/puzzles.htm, puzzle #5), building 2 advanced labs off the start (yes, I had a research order that took advantage of it), emp'ing your own vehicles (I hope some of you remember that one).  All of these were thought up by someone.  They didn't change the code in the game to make it happen, they just took advantage of how the game is played.  Remember: "It's not the weapon, it's the brain behind the weapon that's dangerous."
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Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2005, 10:37:32 AM »
The main problem with Eden and the reason that they get over ran by Plymouth at the start of a game is because they are missing researsh that Plymouth is. The upgrade for fire rate (Heat Dissipation Systems), if this was aviable for Eden when it is for Plymouth, and just upgraded Lasers, and then again avable later for the other weps this would allow lasers to match mircowaves in battle if the micoaves have that researsh done. In not all cases will that researsh be done, like when going for better weapons first. Im not sure if laser damage needs upgradeing a little, it should just be the option of that researsh. This is my proposed change. Adding one researsh for Eden.

Offline Betaray

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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2005, 02:16:18 PM »
like my weavelengh idea
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I just hope they don't explode

Offline Flanx

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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2005, 04:35:36 PM »
I like the wavelength idea to balance (early) Eden vrs (early) Plymouth but what about late game balance? Eden still has Thor's and there's not a really good counter against them for Plymouth (aside from a big EMP missile dropped on them).
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Offline Ezekel

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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2005, 12:36:01 PM »
i looked through the posts here, and i'm surprised no one mentioned this.
but wouldn't the simplest thing to do be to make the railgun a little better?

to be honest a rail gun should be able to pass through units and multi hit. course that'd take far too much re-programming to do.

that coupled with perhaps seperating the heat dissappating research for lasers and other eden weapons. (or just make it later for plymouth... though the prob with that i think is that it only affects microwaves on plymouth).

well i gotta go now, ciao
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Offline Hooman

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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2005, 05:01:13 PM »
What about exchanging microwaves and lasers between Eden and Plymouth. Eden get's the strong weapons, and Plymouth gets the tactical weapons. It could be interesting.
 

Offline Betaray

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« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2005, 08:38:17 PM »
improving railguns wouldnt help, because by the time eden gets them, they are already swarmed with mics and stickys

 
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I just hope they don't explode

Offline Tellaris

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« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2005, 09:50:01 PM »
Eden pwns plymouth in late game.   Plymouth pwns Eden in early game.   'nuff said.
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Offline Ezekel

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« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2005, 09:35:49 AM »
well then i suppose the only real way to combat the sticky prob is to give either the sticky the same range as a laser or a laser the same range as a sticky.
course then you'd probably have to do something like allowing RPGs to be cheaper/faster built to compensate for the late game disadvantage.
probably better to make it faster, cos i doubt anyone here ever has an ore shortage late game.

with 2 cargo trucks and a 1bar common ore mine i was able to to play a eden starship colony game and win before mark 1500 (i had the evac module built by about 990, but i only had 130 colonists :-/ )
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Offline (BD)Sorcer

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« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2005, 07:07:05 PM »
Quote
Eden is far inferior to Plymouth in the beginning of the game. Thor's Hammer can annihilate Plymouth, though. Eden never gets this chance, though. I say we make Lasers better, Thors weaker, and some more balances others feel are necessary.
alright my only comment on this is YOU MUST BE SKILLED TO PLAY EDEN...it's real quick to get to railgun and that's how you defend yourself. also with plymoth their defense against eden's thor is...(if eden is using lynx) the ESP, if they are using tigers, use the EMP, RPG combo to even it out. for eden MUST HAVE EVEN AMOUNT OF EMP'S AND THORS! and trust me some of my better games have been when it's been me vs someone good (not like lev sry). oh just a question do you guys think lev is at all good? or in your eyes is he like god....cause i might have to prove you wrong one of these days

Damn you guys are noobs....stickie is good but leave the game the way it is...i've own'd good eden players as plymoth many times late in game...wanna know how? well i know tactics that they also know will own them and most of the time there is nothing they can do about it. just remember early in the game eden needs to get to rail gun and emp as quickly as they can and for plymoth same thing...a good eden army consists of just emp's and thors, and for plymoth emp's, rpg's, and esg's granted that's later in the game but it's real quick to get to that point...trust me just gotta know in what order to build and what order to research and when to get more scientists to win...either side...it's really easy to win in a 1 on 1 eden vs plymoth....either side early or late

My complete thought is CHANGE NOTHING LEAVE THINGS HOW THEY ARE IT'S FINE HOW IT IS RIGHT NOW
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 07:18:48 PM by (BD)Sorcer »
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Offline Sephiron

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« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2005, 07:47:15 PM »
There is no need in my mind to change eden or ply. Play smart. If anything would need to be changed it would be to give emps to eden earlier and the whole reason I say this is that emps have the same range as stickes and have nearly the same effect. I also do remeber lasers being slightly cheaper than mics. Yes stickies do have range, but what you do is fight quality with quanity. Jam up the areas to allow you time to research. It is very possible for eden to beat any ply player early in the round, at the same time it is also possible for any ply player to beat any eden player later in the round. Ply does have a known advantage early in a game and eden does later in the game, but how you use this advantage and how you combat it is what matters most. What people fail to realize is that due to this the game is balanced. How we play now with no marks was brought up when people began to realize that ply had that advantage, and the games were quicker and more challenging. Many years ago we played only marked games.  Try new things you will be susprised what you can do with pratice

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2005, 04:43:12 AM »
I disagree Sorcer, alltho Rail and EMP can be got quickly, and faster than standard researsh order of Plymouth, its not quick enough, Eden can quickly be conquered by Plymouth before they get to use these weapons. You cant reley on them to defend if you dont have them.

I do agree that both teams can win in a longer game, I dont think there are any problems late game with balancing.

Sephiron, Lynx Mic's cost 750, and Lasers cost 700.

Offline Highlander

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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2005, 05:52:08 AM »
Seph, if your the old Sephiron from DC, you should know perfectly well, that when skilled players play Eden vs Plymouth, the one playing Plymouth will always win unless he messes things up majorly.

Sorc, nice rant of BS. Use a Sticky on those Rails and Micro > Railgun. Eden is better off doing EMP/Laser def at a cheaper cost and rush for Rare, instead of wasting time/resources building Rails.

I'd also like to know your super-plymouth-late game tactics.
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Offline Hawk

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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2005, 01:36:35 PM »
Seph!  Good to hear from ya buddy.  Shriker told me he was in contact with you.  I told him to tell ya to holla sometime.

Why is it I'm always agreeing with my friends?  Oh, yeah, I choose well.  Seph knows all too well that just the emp can make a difference with eden.  Get enough emps to keep vecs knocked out, then the firing rate becomes less siginificant.

As for High, the ignorance of rails is doctrine for the good players.  Why bother getting rails when you got a cheap laser?  Better range?  That's what emps are for.  Doctrine baby!

Let's not forget something, Thor's Hammer is only the hardest hitting point weapon.  Remember La Corrida?  I'll wage a month's base pay against whatever ya'll make in a month against your Thors.  I'll only make 5-10 thors, and they'll be lynx.  Thors make for better actions on the objective (end game), but aren't as good in high-intensity battles where vehicles are crowded together.  Acids would wipe them clean.
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Offline Tellaris

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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2005, 03:54:51 PM »
As it currently is, EDEN CAN BE PLAYED IN ANY GAME.   They are best in team games.   Team games where their ally is Plymouth, and covers them (with at least some help from lasers) from the other team's rushes.   While hard to do, its not impossible, and works extraordinarily well.
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Offline Sephiron

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« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2005, 10:32:54 PM »
Yes highlander this is the Sephiron from won. YOU can win with eden in a no mark. It may not be easy but you can. Another thing eden does not have to build thors to be effective. Thors for the most part drain a lot of resouces and really make better building killers than unit killers. Acid clouds do less damage but cost less rare. The main weakness stickies have is that after they shoot, they can not shoot that same unit again until the stuff goes away. This jams up areas forceing your opponent to then come in with their mics. By your lassers being cheaper you can afford to build them slightly faster. Try 2 vech facts in the begining. Haveing not only your entrance blocked but also haveing more units forces your opponent to hold off their attack or figure an alternate path. FLARES can be deadly. 3 flares will kill any base in pie. 2 flares will kill a cc, and 1 will kill an advanced lab. As hawk used to say "Got Flares". I have killed numerous people with flares, and Im not talking about just newbies. Building an extra earthworker to build walls can also be effective. If I remeber correctly stickies dont hurt walls. So what you do is build a wall and when they bring their mics up to destory the wall bring enough units to destory the mic. Yes your units will be stickied but if you bring up 2 units destory their mic and you get a few mark reprieve. Once they are unstickied fall back. DELAY TATICS works great  :lol: The game is fine.