Outpost Universe Forums

Outpost Series Games => Outpost 2 Multiplayer => Topic started by: Sirbomber on April 09, 2005, 10:16:39 AM

Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Sirbomber on April 09, 2005, 10:16:39 AM
Eden is far inferior to Plymouth in the beginning of the game. Thor's Hammer can annihilate Plymouth, though. Eden never gets this chance, though. I say we make Lasers better, Thors weaker, and some more balances others feel are necessary.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 09, 2005, 10:20:01 AM
Eden can not realy do any stragties even if the Laser was balanced to Microwave. They need stickfoams to be able to hold back forces, and if balancing was made so Eden could be played on standard maps it would be possible that the stickfoam should be added for them to use.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Betaray on April 09, 2005, 10:23:15 AM
perhaps also a new reshurch project that can be done on the laser right after its made, somthing about shifitng the wavelengh or something, it will increase the dmg and rate of fire, but when you reshurch the other laser upgrades its found that that wavelenght is incompatible and thus it dosnt super boost the laser in the long run?
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 09, 2005, 10:28:22 AM
Thats a good idea, and a way to not mess with things to much.

Laser gets wooped by Microwave because Microwave gets upgraded earlyer in the game, with Head Dis. Laser gets upgraded later in the game with Heat Dis, but it is later in the game because you need to reseash thor first and stuff.

So you could seprate the Eden Heat Dis researsh into two, one just for Laser which could be aviable the same time as Ply Head Dis. And the other would be kept for the other weapons.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: CK9 on April 09, 2005, 01:49:48 PM
I don't think the thor's hammer should be weakend, but maybe the rate of fire decreased by a small ammount.  as for how soon eden gets them, have you ever seen lev play as eden?  I remember one time when I did, and the stickys didn't matter.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 09, 2005, 03:23:11 PM
If Lasers were equaled:
If I (both players) just get lasers/microwaves then you equal each other, to go for a stragtie like rare ore u need to get less units and be able to hold your oponent back while you get it, if you cant, your dead.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Sirbomber on April 09, 2005, 04:25:54 PM
The lack of stickyfoam... Maybe Eden should get EMP in Standard Lab after Lasers?
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 09, 2005, 09:26:57 PM
Oh no that effects too much, its a stupid idea and its too big of an edit.

thx :P
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: OP2Patriot on April 09, 2005, 10:08:29 PM
Well, if you really wanted Eden to be more balanced, I could make a weapon damage trainer which would "balance" things.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Hooman on April 09, 2005, 10:14:08 PM
The unbalanced nature of the game is unfortunate, but I'm personally think it should be left as is.

Feel free to make level specific mods, but I'm opposed to changing the game as a whole.
 
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: TH300 on April 10, 2005, 02:55:32 AM
Quote
The unbalanced nature of the game is unfortunate, but I'm personally think it should be left as is.

Feel free to make level specific mods, but I'm opposed to changing the game as a whole.
I agree. Outpost2 is just good as is. (at least its ok)

You suggest to weaken Thors? whats with emp-missiles and novas then?

Dunno about the Micro-laser point, but why do they have to be excactly equal? (that would have the same effect as simply not playing eden, because eden would no longer be different from plymouth in the important points)
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 10, 2005, 09:23:08 AM
This topic has been debated several times before, but with no decisive outcome.

As it stands now, Plymouth will destroy Eden in no mark games, and Eden will destroy Plymouth in 200+ mark games.

As I see it, balacing this will be a hard nut to crack. If Eden is strenghtened much, Plymouth loses it's early advantage, and will end up as "the far" weaker of the two colonies. However, because of this shifted balance early in the game Eden players -usually- don't survive long enough to make use of their later advantages.

So, one can not simply chose to strenghten Eden without looking at the repercussions this will have on Plymouth.



So, here's a few of my own suggestions(some of these might need to be mixed and tweaked a bit):

1) Take away Sticky Foam's building damage. (This will present Eden with a possibility for a Static defense)

2) Upgrade Eden's Guard Posts initial Armor. (Might shift balance later on if game breaks down to amount of defense you can have. In addition Plymouth already has a clear disadvantage when it comes to late game offense)

3) Let a new research upgrade Lasers firing range by 1 square.  (Combined with suggestion 1, Eden can now take out  enemy Sticky Foams

4) Let Eden lynxes start out with heavy armor. OR Make Lynx Armor upgrade availibly early. (Micro's will be the stronger in firepower, but Eden now compensates for this with tougher Lynxes earlier on)

5) Give Eden a new early weapon. (This will probably be hard to do, if not impossible)



Now in compensation for this Plymouth would need to be strenghtened later on.



For this I'd suggest:

1) Upgrading an existing weapon. eg, ESG mines have longer duration OR slightly upgraded damage in addition to damaging structures aswell

2) Adding in a new research for Either: Upgraded Guard Post Armor OR Upgraded vehicle armor. (This would be a late research, after tigers are finished etc)

3) Implementing a new late weapon. (Again tough to do)

4) Make ESG Missile availible. (This is an idea toyed with by me and a friend a long time ago. This would be better if ESG mines had a longer duration.
NOTE: ESG Missiles would leave ESG mines in same field size as the EMP Missile)




Just remember that we can not simply upgrade Eden in early game without giving Plymouth a new feat for long mark games.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 10, 2005, 09:45:12 AM
Nice suggestions but we dont want to change to much.

And eden early game would have to be changed so that they can actualy be played.

I dont think they dominate to much late game, but the thor is too powerfull which its not realy then it could be weakened a little..

Lasers should not do the same as Microwaves, just simlar to them. So Lasers can suvive.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Betaray on April 10, 2005, 12:19:26 PM
like I said before, a quick reshurch program that would upgrade the lasers ddmg and rate of fire and possibly range, but not as much as the later reshurches do

those later topics would replace  the wavelengh upgrade, so they dont stack and eden wont get a super laser

as for thors, well if plym uses emp missles against groups of thors, they can destroy them with esg's in mass, or they could even take them over with spiders, I doubt they would like thors weekend then lol
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 10, 2005, 12:52:07 PM
Yes I agree Thors are fine how they are, as scary as they are :)

The only issuse with balancing it that Eden get wooped because Lasers dont get upgraded when microwaves do.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Mez on April 10, 2005, 03:46:26 PM
Did anoyone stop to think that there was a reason the original op2 progers did this?

Maybe to create more of a challeneg to more experienced players.

e.g. Paco playing as eden and say me playing as ply.  It would give me the advantage to survive long enough to get a force strong enough to compete and at the same time give paco a challeneg to stay alive.

i.e. eden is designed for the mroe experienced player to have a greater challenge against a less experienced one!!!!


Why to we neeed to dumb op2 down, cos then it wud be too easy to play as eden and then wipe the opponent out later!!!

My thoughts any way
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 10, 2005, 05:14:23 PM
ok then...

e.g. Me playing Paco, one of us Eden, Eden dies. Get it? Eden dies at the start of the game.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 11, 2005, 03:34:22 AM
Firstly, let me say, I'm very much against changing anything in OP2.

Secondly, this/these types of debates shows that certain playing styles has come to dominate players strategies. I'll keep some things to myself for now, because I'd like to see people do some experimenting again. Maybe even some new strategies will emerge.



Lev; conserning your reply to my post: Yes, Eden do dominate long mark games. It might be the case that people have forgotten how it is done, but once someone figures out, Eden will dominate.

So, if you wish to upgrade Lasers, Plymouth need a upgrade to their later weapons.


Betaray; Anyone with some skill can avoid getting much more than 50% of their vehicles disabled by EMP Missiles. This goes for Lynxes aswell as Tigers.

As for Spiders, it has been a long time since they was proved a waste of Ore in Multiplayer.



Mezza; I doubt the creators of OP2 went into multiplaying that thoroughly.

And if you look at your reasoning it's a little off. It is based on the fact that your Eden opponent is alot better than yourself before Eden has a shot in the dark in winning a no mark game.

It's the fact as always: Plymouth > Eden in no mark games.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 11, 2005, 04:58:02 AM
I dont think Thors are inbalanced, they are powerfull and you cant get them till late game.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 11, 2005, 09:08:08 AM
If I remember correctly, I think I could get Thor Tigers produced by mark 125 earlier. This was in marked games, where I went for Thor Tigers and nothing else.

So, with right build order, nice research and so forth, Thor Tigers should easily be quite availible before mark 200. The problem is surviving that long.

La Corrida and "Peacekeeper(?)" both have a comp between the players so at least at these two maps, Eden have a shot.

Which again leads to another thing that could help out Eden:

More maps with an Ai in the middle/several Ai's guarding key positions. This way Eden would have a chance to race for higher tech's while Plymouth goes for early Micro rushes.


However this still doesn't present any solution to late game domination by Eden.

NOTE: I'm not saying Eden will always dominate on any map at all times, but if played right, over time, Eden will eventually win because of superior Offensive Weapons. Plymouth will come to struggle because they lack any real offensive power.

 
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Hawk on April 11, 2005, 09:23:02 AM
Problem with Peacekeeper is that it's too easy to penetrate the computer colony.

High is right.  I remember a 2 games that have been 6 or more hours because the teams balanced themselves.  Plus, decisions make a difference.  Ril, Shadow Wolf, and a no-namer (all ply.) vs. Admiral S3, Mustang and me (2 edens).  They attacked TOO early.  We expected an early attack.  How could you not with 2 edens?  Thanks to Mustang pumping out stickys, we managed to divide and conquer and that was just to survive!  If they had waited another 100 marks, small-unit tactics wouldn't have mattered much and rates of fire and damage would have.  AND THAT is where plymouth excels early.  Even if your weapons are better, it's not always a good idea to just charge an eden base.  If they repel your assult, they bought some breathing space.  And that's all an experienced player needs.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 11, 2005, 10:48:50 AM
Eden can suvive in team game's because their allys can help them.

Maps with AI in the middle or large maps it will take longer for them to be attacked so usealy they can be prepared. But on standard maps there is no time, once either player has units, the battle begins.

 
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 11, 2005, 11:23:47 AM
So can we get any solutions to the problem ?

And to what extent is it actually possible to edit weapons ?

Can we get these done ?:

1) Range

2) Damage

3) Fire Rate

4) ESG Missile (Know this one sounds crazy but I gotta ask)

5) Duration (Acid Cloud, Sticky Foam, ESG Mines Duration time)

6) Area of Damage (Limited to 1 square only, or squares next to may take damage aswell ? Read Laser vs Sticky Foam etc)
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: OP2Patriot on April 11, 2005, 01:11:31 PM
A trainer could do all of those except an ESG missile.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Betaray on April 11, 2005, 02:26:00 PM
houbout this, make it so eden gets rail gun before panthers?

rail gun isnt too powerful, but it does do more dmg and has a longer range than lasers

that would give eden rail gun around the same time that ply makes stikies and upgrades their mics

I remember lots of times when I didnt have any rare, and I was able to hold my own
fairly well with just emp/railgun lynx
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 11, 2005, 03:20:15 PM
Likeing the suggestions but I think if we are to do any balancing edits they should only be small so Eden can make it thru the begining of a game in 1v1.

We shouldnt edit it too much, if we edit it at all, it should be small edits. And still thers the possiblity of keeping two versions seprate, edited and un edited, like has been suggested.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Betaray on April 11, 2005, 06:23:37 PM
well the railgun sugestion would be the easist mod possible, simply remove or replace the reshurch requirment for the panther turret, hell even I, with my almost no programming experience could make that mod in 5 min

so instead of eden haveing to reshurch rare, adv vec power, adv combat chassis, and ind turret pwr sys, you would just have to get ind turrit pwr sys, and than you would rail guns

seems like a good way to counter stickys
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 11, 2005, 06:38:23 PM
Railgun is just a wepaon, Sticky is so much more..
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Betaray on April 11, 2005, 08:44:27 PM
its better defence than lasers, and it can hit sticys at the same range as the styckies themselves

it would do better to help defend eden in the beginning

it may not be a long term mod, but for somthing that could be done quickly and easily I think its the best bet to balance it out before more sfistacated programs can be made
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 12, 2005, 02:09:57 AM
I dont beleive at all that it would work to balance the teams.

If Ply goes Mic's, then Smelter Post, then Armor, then attacks Eden has no chanch of wining the battle.  
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: BlackBox on April 12, 2005, 01:58:05 PM
I don't think we should change the original game at all other than very very very basic edits that don't affect it much (if at all). Like the trade center requirements being lowered.

Changing weapons though I think is a bad idea and should be avoided. These types of changes can be done for individual levels if people want.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 12, 2005, 03:15:09 PM
Getting a early Railgun will not solve the problem. While Railgun got a longer range than Lasers, and they do a little bit more damage, but the problem is again the fire rate of Micros.

Combined with Sticky's, Railgun will get stuck, and singled out by the Plymouth player.

In addition Railgun is more expensive than than Lasers/Micros, so Plymouth still has the edge..
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Drakmar on April 12, 2005, 08:13:30 PM
You could always TEMPORARILY reduce the price. Then once the Panther Research is complete, the price would go back up.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 13, 2005, 06:19:32 AM
Well, Drak, think that one through a little bit more.

To get other weapons you'll have to go through panther research first. So you'll end up with a normal Rail Gun, and maybe you have time to get EMP research.

Plymouth opposition just has to mass up Micro/Sticky/EMP's and wait until Eden player starts throwing out EMP's before he hits, because then Rails will be expensive, Eden player will be short on ore because trying to reach Rare Ore.

 
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Hawk on April 13, 2005, 07:45:34 AM
Like Lev stated, the sticky is much more than the rail gun.  The rail gun tends get indirect hits causing less than full damage inflicted on mobile targets.  Like High stated, lasers and micros have a faster firing rate and are cheaper.  Hell, in some games, I've been known to use tiger mics over rpgs because they fire so fast it makes my M240B jealous.

Eden can make things interesting on long 6 player games.  Usually one side remains mobile and loose while the other digs in under an umbrella of meter defense.

Being in the sandbox, I can't exactly play OP.  It seems to me that the problem is that those who do play, would rather change the rules of the game, rather than make the rules work for you.  Examples are getting vehicles in the mountains, destroying your opponent without "touching" them (http://wonbirdsofprey.tripod.com/puzzles.htm, puzzle #5), building 2 advanced labs off the start (yes, I had a research order that took advantage of it), emp'ing your own vehicles (I hope some of you remember that one).  All of these were thought up by someone.  They didn't change the code in the game to make it happen, they just took advantage of how the game is played.  Remember: "It's not the weapon, it's the brain behind the weapon that's dangerous."
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 13, 2005, 10:37:32 AM
The main problem with Eden and the reason that they get over ran by Plymouth at the start of a game is because they are missing researsh that Plymouth is. The upgrade for fire rate (Heat Dissipation Systems), if this was aviable for Eden when it is for Plymouth, and just upgraded Lasers, and then again avable later for the other weps this would allow lasers to match mircowaves in battle if the micoaves have that researsh done. In not all cases will that researsh be done, like when going for better weapons first. Im not sure if laser damage needs upgradeing a little, it should just be the option of that researsh. This is my proposed change. Adding one researsh for Eden.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Betaray on April 13, 2005, 02:16:18 PM
like my weavelengh idea
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Flanx on April 13, 2005, 04:35:36 PM
I like the wavelength idea to balance (early) Eden vrs (early) Plymouth but what about late game balance? Eden still has Thor's and there's not a really good counter against them for Plymouth (aside from a big EMP missile dropped on them).
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Ezekel on April 16, 2005, 12:36:01 PM
i looked through the posts here, and i'm surprised no one mentioned this.
but wouldn't the simplest thing to do be to make the railgun a little better?

to be honest a rail gun should be able to pass through units and multi hit. course that'd take far too much re-programming to do.

that coupled with perhaps seperating the heat dissappating research for lasers and other eden weapons. (or just make it later for plymouth... though the prob with that i think is that it only affects microwaves on plymouth).

well i gotta go now, ciao
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Hooman on April 16, 2005, 05:01:13 PM
What about exchanging microwaves and lasers between Eden and Plymouth. Eden get's the strong weapons, and Plymouth gets the tactical weapons. It could be interesting.
 
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Betaray on April 16, 2005, 08:38:17 PM
improving railguns wouldnt help, because by the time eden gets them, they are already swarmed with mics and stickys

 
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Tellaris on April 16, 2005, 09:50:01 PM
Eden pwns plymouth in late game.   Plymouth pwns Eden in early game.   'nuff said.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Ezekel on April 17, 2005, 09:35:49 AM
well then i suppose the only real way to combat the sticky prob is to give either the sticky the same range as a laser or a laser the same range as a sticky.
course then you'd probably have to do something like allowing RPGs to be cheaper/faster built to compensate for the late game disadvantage.
probably better to make it faster, cos i doubt anyone here ever has an ore shortage late game.

with 2 cargo trucks and a 1bar common ore mine i was able to to play a eden starship colony game and win before mark 1500 (i had the evac module built by about 990, but i only had 130 colonists :-/ )
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: (¥BD£)Sorcer on April 20, 2005, 07:07:05 PM
Quote
Eden is far inferior to Plymouth in the beginning of the game. Thor's Hammer can annihilate Plymouth, though. Eden never gets this chance, though. I say we make Lasers better, Thors weaker, and some more balances others feel are necessary.
alright my only comment on this is YOU MUST BE SKILLED TO PLAY EDEN...it's real quick to get to railgun and that's how you defend yourself. also with plymoth their defense against eden's thor is...(if eden is using lynx) the ESP, if they are using tigers, use the EMP, RPG combo to even it out. for eden MUST HAVE EVEN AMOUNT OF EMP'S AND THORS! and trust me some of my better games have been when it's been me vs someone good (not like lev sry). oh just a question do you guys think lev is at all good? or in your eyes is he like god....cause i might have to prove you wrong one of these days

Damn you guys are noobs....stickie is good but leave the game the way it is...i've own'd good eden players as plymoth many times late in game...wanna know how? well i know tactics that they also know will own them and most of the time there is nothing they can do about it. just remember early in the game eden needs to get to rail gun and emp as quickly as they can and for plymoth same thing...a good eden army consists of just emp's and thors, and for plymoth emp's, rpg's, and esg's granted that's later in the game but it's real quick to get to that point...trust me just gotta know in what order to build and what order to research and when to get more scientists to win...either side...it's really easy to win in a 1 on 1 eden vs plymoth....either side early or late

My complete thought is CHANGE NOTHING LEAVE THINGS HOW THEY ARE IT'S FINE HOW IT IS RIGHT NOW
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Sephiron on April 20, 2005, 07:47:15 PM
There is no need in my mind to change eden or ply. Play smart. If anything would need to be changed it would be to give emps to eden earlier and the whole reason I say this is that emps have the same range as stickes and have nearly the same effect. I also do remeber lasers being slightly cheaper than mics. Yes stickies do have range, but what you do is fight quality with quanity. Jam up the areas to allow you time to research. It is very possible for eden to beat any ply player early in the round, at the same time it is also possible for any ply player to beat any eden player later in the round. Ply does have a known advantage early in a game and eden does later in the game, but how you use this advantage and how you combat it is what matters most. What people fail to realize is that due to this the game is balanced. How we play now with no marks was brought up when people began to realize that ply had that advantage, and the games were quicker and more challenging. Many years ago we played only marked games.  Try new things you will be susprised what you can do with pratice
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 21, 2005, 04:43:12 AM
I disagree Sorcer, alltho Rail and EMP can be got quickly, and faster than standard researsh order of Plymouth, its not quick enough, Eden can quickly be conquered by Plymouth before they get to use these weapons. You cant reley on them to defend if you dont have them.

I do agree that both teams can win in a longer game, I dont think there are any problems late game with balancing.

Sephiron, Lynx Mic's cost 750, and Lasers cost 700.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 21, 2005, 05:52:08 AM
Seph, if your the old Sephiron from DC, you should know perfectly well, that when skilled players play Eden vs Plymouth, the one playing Plymouth will always win unless he messes things up majorly.

Sorc, nice rant of BS. Use a Sticky on those Rails and Micro > Railgun. Eden is better off doing EMP/Laser def at a cheaper cost and rush for Rare, instead of wasting time/resources building Rails.

I'd also like to know your super-plymouth-late game tactics.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Hawk on April 21, 2005, 01:36:35 PM
Seph!  Good to hear from ya buddy.  Shriker told me he was in contact with you.  I told him to tell ya to holla sometime.

Why is it I'm always agreeing with my friends?  Oh, yeah, I choose well.  Seph knows all too well that just the emp can make a difference with eden.  Get enough emps to keep vecs knocked out, then the firing rate becomes less siginificant.

As for High, the ignorance of rails is doctrine for the good players.  Why bother getting rails when you got a cheap laser?  Better range?  That's what emps are for.  Doctrine baby!

Let's not forget something, Thor's Hammer is only the hardest hitting point weapon.  Remember La Corrida?  I'll wage a month's base pay against whatever ya'll make in a month against your Thors.  I'll only make 5-10 thors, and they'll be lynx.  Thors make for better actions on the objective (end game), but aren't as good in high-intensity battles where vehicles are crowded together.  Acids would wipe them clean.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Tellaris on April 21, 2005, 03:54:51 PM
As it currently is, EDEN CAN BE PLAYED IN ANY GAME.   They are best in team games.   Team games where their ally is Plymouth, and covers them (with at least some help from lasers) from the other team's rushes.   While hard to do, its not impossible, and works extraordinarily well.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Sephiron on April 21, 2005, 10:32:54 PM
Yes highlander this is the Sephiron from won. YOU can win with eden in a no mark. It may not be easy but you can. Another thing eden does not have to build thors to be effective. Thors for the most part drain a lot of resouces and really make better building killers than unit killers. Acid clouds do less damage but cost less rare. The main weakness stickies have is that after they shoot, they can not shoot that same unit again until the stuff goes away. This jams up areas forceing your opponent to then come in with their mics. By your lassers being cheaper you can afford to build them slightly faster. Try 2 vech facts in the begining. Haveing not only your entrance blocked but also haveing more units forces your opponent to hold off their attack or figure an alternate path. FLARES can be deadly. 3 flares will kill any base in pie. 2 flares will kill a cc, and 1 will kill an advanced lab. As hawk used to say "Got Flares". I have killed numerous people with flares, and Im not talking about just newbies. Building an extra earthworker to build walls can also be effective. If I remeber correctly stickies dont hurt walls. So what you do is build a wall and when they bring their mics up to destory the wall bring enough units to destory the mic. Yes your units will be stickied but if you bring up 2 units destory their mic and you get a few mark reprieve. Once they are unstickied fall back. DELAY TATICS works great  :lol: The game is fine.  
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Hawk on April 22, 2005, 03:42:46 AM
Yeah, the game is fine like it is.  It seems to me that the old players I know of are in agreement.  I've seen edeners take center on pie and hold it.  The reason everyone likes Plymouth is so they only have to be fast.  If you rush, you have to worry less about what your opponent does, and more on what YOU are doing.  It's easier mentally.  People don't want to think their games out, they just want carnage.  Seph brought up a good point.  The Iraqi insergents "got flare?" us all the time (2 of my friends a week ago).  It's adaptation.  In a long eden vs. plymouth game you'll see about 50 tigers all huddled around a meter defense.  They don't leave because although their weapons are stronger, a well placed missle could mean 15 charred tigers.  Plus, on really long games (+3 hours), favor starts to draw back towards the Plymouth camp.

These inbalances are subtle to experienced players, but can be capatalized on.  Everyone wants to rush.  I used to rush 99% of the time.  Rushing makes eden look like suicide.  But Ron used to pull it off, even against me rushing.  All one has to do is change the way they play.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 22, 2005, 05:42:14 AM
Well, first of all, nice to see you back Seph. Good to see anold player come back, and give his input on the current things going on.

When we talk about balancing early games, I assume we are all thinking of Pie Chart, since that is the most played map. Some of the strats we(Me, Hawk & Seph) think about might be long forgotten, so we migth have an edge ortwo on the current players.

Here's my thinking on the subject:

As far as I can remember, I don't think I have lost a 1 vs 1 game(no mark, rushing) against a Eden player. At least not after I finished my training with Aslan(some of you might know the true identity of this player, but shh). Lets not go into tactics about how to beat a Eden player in no mark or defend as one. It is my statement here that I believe I won, if not all, most of my plymouth vs eden no mark games. That is my first arguement for for Ply > Eden rather than Ply = Eden in no mark games.

Secondly, I was among the top players back on WON(Hope I'm not bragging to much in this statement), and as far as I can remember I could give anyone a good fight by a quick rush. However to give Leviathan some credit here, he uses my tactics better than what I did and he pulls out his early vecs faster than I remember myself doing. So, basicly in any game where Lev choses to go for a rush(most of 'em), he will control the pace/direction of the game to a large extent. After getting a few severe beatings last year, I know I personally will not stand a chance as Eden vs Lev as Plymouth.

As Ron used to say; "Speed Kills" and Lev is damn fast



As for the point about Acids vs Thors, I've been trying to get people here to figure that out for some time. Acids is Edens greatest weapon, and personally, if I don't have to I rarely bother about researching Railguns.
 
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on April 22, 2005, 06:50:35 AM
As you mentioned Rondt, speed did kill him. He played with us on IRC for about 2 months, but he left after a while, mainly because;
- he didnt like geting rushed
- he thought i hacked pie to make me spawn on the bottom half of the map most of the time
It would be nice to have him playing again, but hes clearly forgoten about Outpost 2 again :(

Anyway, Were mainly talking about Pie yes, because that is most played, but it applys to any standard small map. If ur Plymouth and you do a early, or late rush your allways beat Eden. Like you could rush early at the start, or wait untill you get armor. But you will win. They cant slow the attack with stickys, and they cant kill your units because the firepower is too weak.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: TH300 on April 23, 2005, 02:59:12 AM
Quote
Sephiron, Lynx Mic's cost 750, and Lasers cost 700.
Do we have different versions of op2? I can build laser lynxes only for 750.
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Highlander on April 23, 2005, 03:28:40 AM
TH300, did you check your multiplayer values there ?
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: TH300 on April 23, 2005, 03:49:28 AM
Yes, that value is from multiplayer, Improved Pie (v1.4 I believe).
Title: Balancing OP2
Post by: Leviathan on May 12, 2005, 06:19:20 AM
Eden simplely can not suvive in a 1v1 vs Plymouth on a standard small map (128). They stand no chanch. If you think they can you are mistaken. This is the only balancing issue i see.

And Hawk im only talking about experienced players. I mostly think of me playing myself, what would happen etc.

TH300 the map dosent matter, the ore values etc are part of the game rules set in sheets.vol which is used for all maps. Im not sure on the price of lasers, i was thinking from memory.