Balancing OP2

[Sirbomber]

Eden is far inferior to Plymouth in the beginning of the game. Thor's Hammer can annihilate Plymouth, though. Eden never gets this chance, though. I say we make Lasers better, Thors weaker, and some more balances others feel are necessary.

[Leviathan]

Eden can not realy do any stragties even if the Laser was balanced to Microwave. They need stickfoams to be able to hold back forces, and if balancing was made so Eden could be played on standard maps it would be possible that the stickfoam should be added for them to use.

[Betaray]

perhaps also a new reshurch project that can be done on the laser right after its made, somthing about shifitng the wavelengh or something, it will increase the dmg and rate of fire, but when you reshurch the other laser upgrades its found that that wavelenght is incompatible and thus it dosnt super boost the laser in the long run?

[Leviathan]

Thats a good idea, and a way to not mess with things to much.

Laser gets wooped by Microwave because Microwave gets upgraded earlyer in the game, with Head Dis. Laser gets upgraded later in the game with Heat Dis, but it is later in the game because you need to reseash thor first and stuff.

So you could seprate the Eden Heat Dis researsh into two, one just for Laser which could be aviable the same time as Ply Head Dis. And the other would be kept for the other weapons.

[CK9]

I don't think the thor's hammer should be weakend, but maybe the rate of fire decreased by a small ammount.  as for how soon eden gets them, have you ever seen lev play as eden?  I remember one time when I did, and the stickys didn't matter.

[Leviathan]

If Lasers were equaled:
If I (both players) just get lasers/microwaves then you equal each other, to go for a stragtie like rare ore u need to get less units and be able to hold your oponent back while you get it, if you cant, your dead.

[Sirbomber]

The lack of stickyfoam... Maybe Eden should get EMP in Standard Lab after Lasers?

[Leviathan]

Oh no that effects too much, its a stupid idea and its too big of an edit.

thx

[OP2Patriot]

Well, if you really wanted Eden to be more balanced, I could make a weapon damage trainer which would "balance" things.

[Hooman]

The unbalanced nature of the game is unfortunate, but I'm personally think it should be left as is.

Feel free to make level specific mods, but I'm opposed to changing the game as a whole.
 

[TH300]

The unbalanced nature of the game is unfortunate, but I'm personally think it should be left as is.

Feel free to make level specific mods, but I'm opposed to changing the game as a whole.

I agree. Outpost2 is just good as is. (at least its ok)

You suggest to weaken Thors? whats with emp-missiles and novas then?

Dunno about the Micro-laser point, but why do they have to be excactly equal? (that would have the same effect as simply not playing eden, because eden would no longer be different from plymouth in the important points)

[Highlander]

This topic has been debated several times before, but with no decisive outcome.

As it stands now, Plymouth will destroy Eden in no mark games, and Eden will destroy Plymouth in 200+ mark games.

As I see it, balacing this will be a hard nut to crack. If Eden is strenghtened much, Plymouth loses it's early advantage, and will end up as "the far" weaker of the two colonies. However, because of this shifted balance early in the game Eden players -usually- don't survive long enough to make use of their later advantages.

So, one can not simply chose to strenghten Eden without looking at the repercussions this will have on Plymouth.



So, here's a few of my own suggestions(some of these might need to be mixed and tweaked a bit):

1) Take away Sticky Foam's building damage. (This will present Eden with a possibility for a Static defense)

2) Upgrade Eden's Guard Posts initial Armor. (Might shift balance later on if game breaks down to amount of defense you can have. In addition Plymouth already has a clear disadvantage when it comes to late game offense)

3) Let a new research upgrade Lasers firing range by 1 square.  (Combined with suggestion 1, Eden can now take out  enemy Sticky Foams

4) Let Eden lynxes start out with heavy armor. OR Make Lynx Armor upgrade availibly early. (Micro's will be the stronger in firepower, but Eden now compensates for this with tougher Lynxes earlier on)

5) Give Eden a new early weapon. (This will probably be hard to do, if not impossible)



Now in compensation for this Plymouth would need to be strenghtened later on.



For this I'd suggest:

1) Upgrading an existing weapon. eg, ESG mines have longer duration OR slightly upgraded damage in addition to damaging structures aswell

2) Adding in a new research for Either: Upgraded Guard Post Armor OR Upgraded vehicle armor. (This would be a late research, after tigers are finished etc)

3) Implementing a new late weapon. (Again tough to do)

4) Make ESG Missile availible. (This is an idea toyed with by me and a friend a long time ago. This would be better if ESG mines had a longer duration.
NOTE: ESG Missiles would leave ESG mines in same field size as the EMP Missile)




Just remember that we can not simply upgrade Eden in early game without giving Plymouth a new feat for long mark games.

[Leviathan]

Nice suggestions but we dont want to change to much.

And eden early game would have to be changed so that they can actualy be played.

I dont think they dominate to much late game, but the thor is too powerfull which its not realy then it could be weakened a little..

Lasers should not do the same as Microwaves, just simlar to them. So Lasers can suvive.

[Betaray]

like I said before, a quick reshurch program that would upgrade the lasers ddmg and rate of fire and possibly range, but not as much as the later reshurches do

those later topics would replace  the wavelengh upgrade, so they dont stack and eden wont get a super laser

as for thors, well if plym uses emp missles against groups of thors, they can destroy them with esg's in mass, or they could even take them over with spiders, I doubt they would like thors weekend then lol

[Leviathan]

Yes I agree Thors are fine how they are, as scary as they are

The only issuse with balancing it that Eden get wooped because Lasers dont get upgraded when microwaves do.

[Mez]

Did anoyone stop to think that there was a reason the original op2 progers did this?

Maybe to create more of a challeneg to more experienced players.

e.g. Paco playing as eden and say me playing as ply.  It would give me the advantage to survive long enough to get a force strong enough to compete and at the same time give paco a challeneg to stay alive.

i.e. eden is designed for the mroe experienced player to have a greater challenge against a less experienced one!!!!


Why to we neeed to dumb op2 down, cos then it wud be too easy to play as eden and then wipe the opponent out later!!!

My thoughts any way

[Leviathan]

ok then...

e.g. Me playing Paco, one of us Eden, Eden dies. Get it? Eden dies at the start of the game.

[Highlander]

Firstly, let me say, I'm very much against changing anything in OP2.

Secondly, this/these types of debates shows that certain playing styles has come to dominate players strategies. I'll keep some things to myself for now, because I'd like to see people do some experimenting again. Maybe even some new strategies will emerge.



Lev; conserning your reply to my post: Yes, Eden do dominate long mark games. It might be the case that people have forgotten how it is done, but once someone figures out, Eden will dominate.

So, if you wish to upgrade Lasers, Plymouth need a upgrade to their later weapons.


Betaray; Anyone with some skill can avoid getting much more than 50% of their vehicles disabled by EMP Missiles. This goes for Lynxes aswell as Tigers.

As for Spiders, it has been a long time since they was proved a waste of Ore in Multiplayer.



Mezza; I doubt the creators of OP2 went into multiplaying that thoroughly.

And if you look at your reasoning it's a little off. It is based on the fact that your Eden opponent is alot better than yourself before Eden has a shot in the dark in winning a no mark game.

It's the fact as always: Plymouth > Eden in no mark games.

[Leviathan]

I dont think Thors are inbalanced, they are powerfull and you cant get them till late game.

[Highlander]

If I remember correctly, I think I could get Thor Tigers produced by mark 125 earlier. This was in marked games, where I went for Thor Tigers and nothing else.

So, with right build order, nice research and so forth, Thor Tigers should easily be quite availible before mark 200. The problem is surviving that long.

La Corrida and "Peacekeeper(?)" both have a comp between the players so at least at these two maps, Eden have a shot.

Which again leads to another thing that could help out Eden:

More maps with an Ai in the middle/several Ai's guarding key positions. This way Eden would have a chance to race for higher tech's while Plymouth goes for early Micro rushes.


However this still doesn't present any solution to late game domination by Eden.

NOTE: I'm not saying Eden will always dominate on any map at all times, but if played right, over time, Eden will eventually win because of superior Offensive Weapons. Plymouth will come to struggle because they lack any real offensive power.

 

[Hawk]

Problem with Peacekeeper is that it's too easy to penetrate the computer colony.

High is right.  I remember a 2 games that have been 6 or more hours because the teams balanced themselves.  Plus, decisions make a difference.  Ril, Shadow Wolf, and a no-namer (all ply.) vs. Admiral S3, Mustang and me (2 edens).  They attacked TOO early.  We expected an early attack.  How could you not with 2 edens?  Thanks to Mustang pumping out stickys, we managed to divide and conquer and that was just to survive!  If they had waited another 100 marks, small-unit tactics wouldn't have mattered much and rates of fire and damage would have.  AND THAT is where plymouth excels early.  Even if your weapons are better, it's not always a good idea to just charge an eden base.  If they repel your assult, they bought some breathing space.  And that's all an experienced player needs.

[Leviathan]

Eden can suvive in team game's because their allys can help them.

Maps with AI in the middle or large maps it will take longer for them to be attacked so usealy they can be prepared. But on standard maps there is no time, once either player has units, the battle begins.

 

[Highlander]

So can we get any solutions to the problem ?

And to what extent is it actually possible to edit weapons ?

Can we get these done ?:

1) Range

2) Damage

3) Fire Rate

4) ESG Missile (Know this one sounds crazy but I gotta ask)

5) Duration (Acid Cloud, Sticky Foam, ESG Mines Duration time)

6) Area of Damage (Limited to 1 square only, or squares next to may take damage aswell ? Read Laser vs Sticky Foam etc)

[OP2Patriot]

A trainer could do all of those except an ESG missile.

[Betaray]

houbout this, make it so eden gets rail gun before panthers?

rail gun isnt too powerful, but it does do more dmg and has a longer range than lasers

that would give eden rail gun around the same time that ply makes stikies and upgrades their mics

I remember lots of times when I didnt have any rare, and I was able to hold my own
fairly well with just emp/railgun lynx