Emp Missle Theory

[Mcshay]

[size=8]Note: the below post is based off of a few multiplayer games, and might be caused due to bad luck on the Eden player's part. I don't know if this has been discussed before, sorry if it has. Also, these situations need to be tested again, it might have been a fluke.[/size]

If you have to face someone with emp missles, your in big trouble. Unless your Eden with anti-missle buildings. But, are you realy as safe as you think? I found that by launching a missle directly at a laser array, the missle will always hit the array. If you build two arrays close to each other, that won't help either. It still hits. If you launch two missles at the same array (one close to another array), the first one will hit, then the second will be shot down by the other array. I don't really know if this is a bug, or something that Sierra never fixed, or if it's intended.

Tips for Eden players:
1. Don't build arrays next to smelters, mines, the observatory, VF, labs, or anything else importaint. Build them a half a screen away if possible, and it's even better if you put it in the open, or around things like, agridomes, nurseries and universities(things that won't be as harmful when emped).
2. Strike fast and early
3. Cover parts of your base that are importaint, or that are areas where the enemy can attack. Otherwise you will run out of people long before you cover everything right.

[Betaray]

that is a very intresting point, im going to go test that out for myself

[Highlander]

Now, while the discovery is interesting in itself, it doesn't affect gameplay as much as you may think.

Personally, I usually never get to the point in a game where I have to get Observatory and Meteor Defenses. And if I get around to research them, I don't usually build them. Why ? Because they take up too many people on something that for my part isn't really worth it.


Now, while some new players enjoy being able to emp a "Mining Colony" (3 smelters and their vecs). Every player who has played for some time, know that this isn't really worth the cost of the EMP Missile. It's simply 3000 Common and 1500 Rare ore wasted on something that doesn't hurt your opponent that much.


Assuming however, that you are in a tight situation, and that you have a Meteor Defense somewhere around a important location.
My inital thought here is that someone must be pretty stupid to have his army massed around the MD. First you would have your front line of defenses, just about 1/2 screen behind, your second line of defenses(including the MD). Behind this again you would have a small back-up force just in case.
With this scenario, your opponent would have to 2 Spaceports up and running(swallowing 10 colonists)He would also have to have buildt 2 EMP Missiles, and have enough ore to build 2-4 more on the spot. (Talking ALOT of ore here)

In order for him to take out the location, he would then have to strike your 2nd line of defenses(taking out the MD), then strike the Frontal line with a Missile. Then make 2 more missiles, get ready to EMP your MD again, and then your front line (This time to hit even more vecs as back up forces are ready now) And continue Missile production and hitting enough vecs to break through.

This would seem like a costly and time consuming to me, and frankly only if everything goes according to pland would it work out. (Which things rarely does anyway)



All in all I would just recommend that you don't use a static defense, but have a good mix of Tigers and back-up Lynxes to deal with enemy threats.

And there are more ways to avoid EMP Missiles than just a MD

[Mcshay]

I usualy can staff and easily produce missles for 3-6 spaceports. THe missles are most effective when you are attacked, which is when I usualy use them. You can trap most of the army with 3 missles.

[Freeza-CII]

Hmm using a missile is one thing using a s*** load at once is another.

If what you say is true then a Redundant array of Meteor def. is required  but the space required for the power plants may not allways be there.  Now if you people know about this bug.  Are you going to exploit it or are you going to let it be and fire the missile as you normally would.

[Mcshay]

I'll play as normal, it seems too cheap to abuse the bug.

[Highlander]

McShay.. after all my years of playing I have yet to see a player working 3+ Spaceports in a multiplayer game.

I sincerely doubt it would last that long, even if you play to mark 2000, 6 spaceports are a bit much

[Leviathan]

Ive had 3 spaceports on long pie games but no more i think. You gotta have a lot of rare to keep em going for a attack.

[BlackBox]

An interesting thing to check, would be if the missile defense works better if you research the upgrades for either observatory or the defense. (can't remember the names)

Does the number of observatories affect its targeting? I'm not sure myself.

I've had 6 spaceports in some game... I think it was flood plain or something.

[Highlander]

Congrats Hacker! (thumbsup)  

[Sirbomber]

McShay.. after all my years of playing I have yet to see a player working 3+ Spaceports in a multiplayer game.

I sincerely doubt it would last that long, even if you play to mark 2000, 6 spaceports are a bit much

I'm lucky when he gets less than 8...
And it's not too hard when you think about it. Build up a small army, build the spaceports, get the missiles. Stop researching and idle factories since you won't be needing them. Now you have plenty of ore, workers, and scis for your emp death factories.... jerk...  :rolleyes:  

[Mcshay]

Actualy, it's more like, staff 3 vfs, do all nessisary researches, get two common mines and one rare (two-three smelters each mine). Then idle labs and build spaceports. Somehow it all works out.

[Highlander]

I think the two of us needs to duke it out

Maybe then I can show you, that this isn't working as you planned in the beginning  (thumbsup)  

[dm-horus]

i actually noticed this little bug back in the day. i tested it out on several people in multiplayer and had it used against me as well. if you fly in 2 emp missiles on the same spot, the first always hits but subsequent missiles get intercepted by adjacent def. i tried launching 6 missiles at one def and only the first got thru. it seems launching one almost guarantees a hit. in the long run, this fact is useless. for some reason i get the feeling this is a bug dynamix never thought would impact gameplay. this WAS in the early days of multiplayer afterall.

[PUNK_FOX]

How is it that u guy's can use a EMP Missile. :blink: I mean, I try a bunch of times 2 activate it and all I C is an EMP Missile sitting at the Spacport doing nothing. :yawn: I'd have 2 build a sh** load of Spaceports because all the other Spaceports r occupied with EMP Missiles. If theirs anybody out there that can help me, give me a message ore a shout. (thumbsup)  

[Freeza-CII]

you have to build the missile press launch then select where you want it to land

[dm-horus]

the solution to this is pretty easy: build your missile defence structures far enough away from any other buildings to be just barely outside of EMP range. when the EMPs hit the defense structures, the resulting wave doesnt shut down any of your main base structures, just the defence. youd have to practically line your base with them to deflect multiple strikes but i believe this problem was going to be fixed anyway, wasnt it?



besides this fact, emp missiles are so costly as to negate their use in a pitched battle. spaceports themselves are practically useless in multi games for this reason. you could be researching 2 topics with the scientists it takes to run 1 spaceport not even considering the power consumption and metals required. i never bother. a rule of thumb for multiplayer games is to focus only on building and maintaining structures which PRODUCE something in large numbers like metals, spiders, vehicles, colonists, scientists. a spaceport takes a large amount of resources to make a single unit which has a low probability of effecting the battle how it is desired and only a 50/50 chance of successfully impacting at all (when up against missile def). the only real purpose emp missiles have is taking out base defenses or shutting down mining operations as harassment (unless the player is profoundly stupid or newb, emp'ing a mining op wouldnt kill his chances). again, a player would have to be very stupid or unexperienced to base their whole game around stationary defense turrets. it even says in the manual that turrets are nothing but a stop-gap measure designed to slow enemy units into a base enough that tanks can take care of them. tanks always beat turrets, no matter what. stationary guns are almost entirely useless since if a large enough enemy foce has come to your doorstep, it is likely there is nothing you can do anyway. stickyfoam'ing 1 or 2 units just before they thor your cc isnt likely to help you.

using emp missiles on groups of tanks works only if the enemy player is either not paying attention or profoundly stupid or newb, again. a smart player would keep their white stallion (their prized tank group) on the move as a form of protection, changing their direction every few seconds. zig zagging their way toward an enemy base ensures that the enemy launching an emp will likely have the missile impact on unoccupied land as your tanks zag away. the only way an enemy with emp missiles could actually halt a tank group that advances like this would be to have at least 5-8 spaceports with one emp missile each and carpet bomb the entire screen around the tanks. how much resources would he expend then? once the units came back online, having spent all his money on missiles and no defense, he would be creamed. an enemy with a solid tank defense AND a stockpile of EMP missiles is so unlikely that you dont even need to consider it. if you let your opponent get 8 spaceports and emp missiles and a whole division of tanks to back them up, you deserve to get wiped out

[Sirbomber]

Have any of you EVER played Hooville? You get practically limitless ore and (for me and my "clique" or whatever) it's the new Pie Chart. It's harder to run out of ore then it is to max your ore storages.

[thablkpanda]

the only way an enemy with emp missiles could actually halt a tank group that advances like this would be to have at least 5-8 spaceports with one emp missile each and carpet bomb the entire screen around the tanks. how much resources would he expend then? once the units came back online, having spent all his money on missiles and no defense, he would be creamed. an enemy with a solid tank defense AND a stockpile of EMP missiles is so unlikely that you dont even need to consider it. if you let your opponent get 8 spaceports and emp missiles and a whole division of tanks to back them up, you deserve to get wiped out

That's how Starfox plays. Again, i hate to single out one person. But he built 6-8 spaceports on me, and would have launched had it not been for the fact I was getting beat anyway.

One thing here you're missing Horus- is after mark 1500 (which we SURELY play to) it's not uncommon to have 8-10 total Common Smelters and about 4-6 Rares running.

That's one s***load of ore.

Again, once you hit mark 1500 or 1000 even, we've seen people pushing 8 vech facs, and ore in excess of 75,000 Common.

Again, that's a s***load of ore. Enough for several ESG/EMP/Supernova armies- which I recently got owned by as Eden, thinking I'd own some n00b stupid enough to play plymouth against me. (Actually wasn't a n00b, it was McShay- real cool guy, and a true Plymouth master.)

My point is- despite the attack strategy, several (even just a few) EMP missles greatly misues Plymouth's obvious power over Eden. Whereas Thor's Hammer is an obvious weapon- something meant to be mass produced, EMP Missles require Several spaceports- in which resources are used by the gallon- or whatever- but they're used too fast IMO- and It's not an effective strategy.

I'm rambling now- so I'll stop. I just agree with whatever Horus has to say.

Panda

 

[Mcshay]

(Sorry if I sound rude/flaming the this post, but I just want to clear up what I know.)

Sorry, but some of that isn't true for every game.

emp missiles are so costly as to negate their use in a pitched battle. spaceports themselves are practically useless in multi games for this reason.

I have played many games where I can run 3-5 spaceports constantly and produce units.

you could be researching 2 topics with the scientists it takes to run 1 spaceport

Most people I have played would research missles last.

a spaceport takes a large amount of resources to make a single unit which has a low probability of effecting the battle how it is desired and only a 50/50 chance of successfully impacting at all

the only real purpose of emp missiles have is taking out base defenses or shutting down mining operations as harassment

The most effective place to use a missle would be at the battle front in the middle of nowhere. There won't be missle defences there. In the time it takes for the missle's effects to wear off, the missler's army will have destroyed or badly dammaged his/her opponent's army. Even one smart use of a missle can decide a battle.

using emp missiles on groups of tanks works only if the enemy player is either not paying attention or profoundly stupid or newb, again. a smart player would keep their white stallion (their prized tank group) on the move as a form of protection, changing their direction every few seconds. zig zagging their way toward an enemy base ensures that the enemy launching an emp will likely have the missile impact on unoccupied land as your tanks zag away.

You can't move an army of tanks fast enough to escape a missle. A smart missle user will shoot slightly ahead of the tanks if they are moving. In the time it takes for the other player to respond and run away, the tanks will have reached the center of the radius, and have a shorter time to travel farther.

having spent all his money on missiles and no defense, he would be creamed. an enemy with a solid tank defense AND a stockpile of EMP missiles is so unlikely that you dont even need to consider it. if you let your opponent get 8 spaceports and emp missiles and a whole division of tanks to back them up, you deserve to get wiped out 

This is in no way true for any games I have played. I used to frequently have a maxed out tank army and many spaceports at my command. If you had played any game with me a month ago, you would have had to kill me early on, or face that.

I, as a Plymouth player, would like missles to be some how hindered in multiplayer games. I anti-missle unit would be great to give to Eden and Plymouth (Plymouth on Plymouth fights can be very nasty when missles are involved).

Edit: Thanks Panda, your a great player as well. You make some of the coolest bases I have seen.

[dm-horus]

the point is precisely that. to RELY upon emp missiles and expect to use them in early game is pointless. knowing the strategy is wise, but if you mostly play rush games that dont last past mark 800 its somewhat useless. emp missiles are one of my favorite strategies. im a habitual turtler and i like to emp enemy ore operations just to give them something else to think about. knowing that sweet nothing from the sky can come for them at any time keeps them wondering... nervous... unsure. better them than me. giving someone something to think about in game keeps them from focusing on attacking, from building tanks and more on missile defense, on building multiple (expensive) mining operations. however, i dont think it is a wise tactic to teach to newbs just entering the game. ive been writing new user tuts and so i tend to look at this subject from that pov. this is a strategy that seasoned players naturally pick up on but putting it out there for people to whip out in every other game isnt that hot.

[Freeza-CII]

When you play Eden vs. Ply.  If Ply even has one starport and emp missile and tigers.  Eden basicly has to go to defensive only and cant leave the base because the missile will get stop the troops.  And you cant send in thor lynx because emp and esg tigers wil tear them apart and the emp missile can still get the lynx.  Now if there was some kind of Mobile Anti Missile turret or scout research for ECM Electronic Counter Measures.  the Anit missile is self explainitory and can only attack missiles other then that is like a esg trying to take out a common storage.  ECM on the other hand would make it so a missile would have a error in the targeting and make it fall else where close by.  

Now i know some of you PLYMOUTH people will be in a uproar about such a defensive tech.  But come on there is not a chance in hell a Eden can survive if there always in defensive posture.  And you cant fight tigers with lynx even if they are the over kill thors hammer.

[Highlander]

1) Using a EMP missile on an enemy's smelters is just annoying it doesn't do much good. Takes about 20 secs max to recover from.

2) Since when was Eden ever in a defensive position ? With a mobile Missile Defense, Plymouth wouldn't stand a chance..

[Tellaris]

You gotta be smarter then the missiler....   There are ways around the mass missiling, I've found them.   Its not hard.
Though a good Eden player can just dig in and become virtually unkillable.
And you wanna see a fancy base, gimme 20 mins...

[thablkpanda]

When you play Eden vs. Ply.  If Ply even has one starport and emp missile and tigers.  Eden basicly has to go to defensive only and cant leave the base because the missile will get stop the troops.  And you cant send in thor lynx because emp and esg tigers wil tear them apart and the emp missile can still get the lynx.  Now if there was some kind of Mobile Anti Missile turret or scout research for ECM Electronic Counter Measures.  the Anit missile is self explainitory and can only attack missiles other then that is like a esg trying to take out a common storage.  ECM on the other hand would make it so a missile would have a error in the targeting and make it fall else where close by.  

Now i know some of you PLYMOUTH people will be in a uproar about such a defensive tech.  But come on there is not a chance in hell a Eden can survive if there always in defensive posture.  And you cant fight tigers with lynx even if they are the over kill thors hammer.

I like that idea.

Kinda like EMP'ing a missle so it's inaffective temporarily or something. Very cool.

I'll think on this- and see what the coders are up to..

Chris