Op3, But Cordinated

[Stormy]

Plan for a coordinated OP3:
First of all, we need lots and lots of help..
we need the folowing ppl
   Coders
A CVS server (concurrent versions system)
Story Writer(s) (you guys need to agree on a storyline)
graphic creators ( i can help with this)
mappers

How will this fit together? First we will come up with a storyline that the writers can agree on,something that is possible to put into a game. Then, we will have coders working on the code much as they can, one at a time.. uploading changes to the CVS server. The graphic creators will take op2 graphics and jazz them up for a more finished look. (lol, not saying op2 doesnt look finished)The vehicles should stay the same. We could add a few structures.. weaps,, etc. etc.. I dont really know how to put together the parts and pieces of the code, coders, we need help with this...ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED PLZ... this would be awesome if we can get it made.. even if youre interested in helping, and you dont really know much about coding etc, we need as much help as we can get... If its coding you need help with, i know of a site that has coding tutorials.. IT would be neat to have a multiplayer capability...With like 8 player slots.. and a saving menu for sp.

Methods for success:

1. we must work together, and minimize conflict between ideas, if you have an idea, post it in the forums, but it cant really change the game too much once we have started on it..

2. We must do the storyline, setting, etc. before we start coding, or we will run into a heck of a lot of
trouble..

3. If a problem comes up, tell us.. we can always start over from the last backup point!!! The sooner we know about a problem, the faster we can all get our hands on it..

MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!
4. BACKUP YOUR WORK!!!! you dont want to lose it.. save it do some sort of an external source..

Process of creating the game:

1. Storywriters come up with a storyline.. ( i have some ideas for stories)..

2. Everyone, including the mappers and storywriters, comes up with a mapping layout system. Such as:the map has to follow the settings in the storyline.. etc..etc..

3. Coders start writing the code for the game..updating their work to the CVS server ( one at a time) it would work best if the coders were in different time zones so we can have someone on it at all times.

4. Graphic editors work on the graphics, working with the storyline guys (for new structures etc..)

5. Coders will have to work with the Graphic editors to integrate the graphics into the game.

6. The coders compile the game... and run through the debug process...

7. Once its done, we send the code to OPU staff (if its ok OPU staff ;p) for them to review the code..

8. We compile it.

Goal:
to make an OP3 enjoyable for the public, including multiplayer, and more mp player slots than op2.

How to apply for development of the game:
Contact Me or Zanco` On IRC:  (thumbsup)
#Outpost2, #Outpost2.lobby, #Outpost2.coding,and #Outpost2.noob.
or post in this Topic. Our main method of talking will be IRC (as always  

Name ideas:
OP3: The Final Frontier

[Leviathan]

If you want to help out OPU just do OP2 coding and whatevea else you can.

Nice ideas, but please slap your self about a bit with a large trout.

[leeor_net]

OP2 has 8 player slots for MP, correct?

This is a difficult limit for players that are on dial-up (which I'd say more than half are still on dial-up services). So having more slots could create more problems than anything.

As far as coding is concerned, it would be appropriate to come up with a story and then a FULL game design (including drawings, documents, etc.) before getting anyone to do graphics/coding/etc.

To put it simply, if you can create a complete design document with attached sketches, I'll be more than happy to develop the refresh engine (I'm asumming that you want a 3D engine?). I've done a lot of work with shiny flashy graphic engine programming so it'd be easy enough to write.

The logic and whatnot, however, someone else may have to do. I do have other projects! :-) (although I'm thinking that by the time those doc's get done or mostly done OPUTool will be in a released state and I will be waiting on Hooman for SIGS/WON server info).

[leeor_net]

Oh BTW, I never found CVS to be helpful. If you really want a CVS, create a new project on SourceForge.net.

Otherwise just a Version History section in the Readme and a VH section on a web site are enough.

[Leviathan]

I just think that we can get any proramers involved for it. As a comunity were working on improving op2 (maps, missions, mapper, easy of use to create for etc) and not on new game projects, apart from MIA realy.

I think OP1 and OP2 remakes are the first things that should be done before totaly new games, like something 3D, but we do allready have a possiblity for 3D engin, TA Spring, and i hope it will get used. Much better to use a open source project which has allready had a lot done to it than to start over.

[TH300]

an op3 would be great. I've been waiting for it for too long.

Since the first question really is the storyline, I may suggest that we don't make an op2 clone from this (or an op2 - extended version with a few new structures and vecs). My idea: Eden has terraformed the planet successfully and the aim is to become the dominating power on it. Since terraforming has caused a major change of environment there have to be new ressources and new weapons etc. Gameplay would almost be the same, since there are still disasters, there still is an enemy and morale.


What I could do for it:
I know quite a bit of C++ (its the language for the game isn't it?), so I could help out with game coding, although I haven't done much 3D-programming yet. But there are certainly tasks beside the game engine.
Furthermore I can create maps for it. mapping is my hobby. Just make sure there is an editor soon enough.

[Stormy]

I can make some backgrounds for the menus... if that 3D engine is compatible with GTK Radiant or something similar, it would really really help out...
I think we could either use that 3d engine and work off of that... or we could make a new addon pack.. It would be neat if we could make it an addon, you can run it from op2, and it uses the 3d engine..

ppl i know who want to help:

me
zanco`
Leeor
dennis might map
oh yea, TH300 can help code and map

i know i had some other ppl who want to help... just post in this topic and ill add you to the list
I have a feeling we can do this  
I dont know exactly how we can do the CVS server... ill look into it.  

[Leviathan]

yes get working,

list of things needed:

missions code (bigest part)
maps
background (640 x 480)

the importiant question, who r the mission coders?:
Stormy
TH300
Me & Moogle might help a bit, but Eddy is busy doing his own missions!


you dont need CVS, so dont waist your time.

[Eddy-B]

the importiant question, who r the mission coders?:
Stormy
TH300
Me & Moogle might help a bit, but Eddy is busy doing his own missions!

TH300 ? didn't know he could code ? .. the more the better..
as for me, he's right. i am quite busy, can't get enough time to work on renegades.

you dont need CVS, so dont waist your time

You don't really need one, but you DO need some way to get all coders to work with the same coding strategy, and all their works fit together (i.e. can be linked without problems) THAT is far more importent.

[Leviathan]

Yea I hope TH300 gets more into OP2 coding, but hes allways busy doing something good anyway. Also Stormy needs to get learning more! Multiplayer maps is just the basics, AI coding is the fun bit !

[Stormy]

im working on a main menu, and i need someone to add some transparnecy and a white border around this picture. The border must be white in teh center, and gray on the edges, like a 3d looking one... plz.. if you can help out.... the results will be fantastic! trust me...

[TH300]

yea, i CAN code ;p
and sorry, Levi. If I ever get work for this project I won't bother with op2 coding (except setting up ressources and starting locations etc. on new maps what I need to do for my new multiplayer map)

sure I can do mission coding for the new op3. The question is: will we use dlls for it or will we use our own script language (which for we might have to program our own interpreter)?

[Sl0vi]

I would like to help out.... but the only problem is that I kinda have no skills

[Hooman]

Just a technical note, but there is no problem with multiple coders working at the same time on a project managed by CVS. In fact, the more recent versions will allow multiple coders to work on the same file at the same time. It uses diff3 (compares 3 seperate files for differences) to merge the results once the second person submits the changes. If it can't figure out how to merge the changes (say, if the two people changed the same section of code) then it'll ask the second person submitting about how the change should be resolved.


Also, are you sure you know what you're getting in to? I hate to squash enthusiasm, but making a game is a really large project and enthusiasm tends to die much sooner than the game can be done. It's also not very fair to get other people's hopes up on a project you're just going to abandon in 3 or 4 months.


The first thing that comes to my mind is how much code needs to be written. If you expect to get finished in any amount of time, you'll need multiple coders. And that introduces a whole list of problems. Coordinating coders is not an easy task. Especially since many coders have very different ideas about things and it can be nearly impossible to get them to agree on anything. (Heh, I wonder what Hacker and Eddy thinks of me here  :lol: ... err, actually, maybe I don't want to know  :unsure: ) There is also the problem of coders coming and going. Some people who are initially working on the project would likely be expected to leave before it's done. Lack of interest is a big problem here. They might start the project thinking it sounds cool only to later abandon it. Remember, there is no pay incentive to keep people working here. Also, there are many other reasons to quit a project. These things can take years to finish, and things will change during that time. People's lives will change, they're priorities will change, and they may not have time for such a project anymore. Also, it takes a while for new people being added to a project to get up to speed and become productive. Especially since they tend to have questions which takes up time from the other coders. In case you don't know, adding more coders to projects often makes them take longer to finish.

Not to mention, you'll probably want to find people with some coding experience and won't need the next 5 to 10 years to learn how. And I don't mean to offend anyone by that. I know a lot of people with many years of coding experience and they've never attempted this big of a project. I've got about 10 years coding experience and I've never attemped this big of a project (granted, most of my experience is at the "hobby" level). And if you look at the resumes for some of these game coders, you'll probably find they all have over 10 years of coding experience. And I'm not talking hobby coding either. These people have generally been employed for that long. And there is quite a difference between coding as a hobby, and coding as a profession. OF course, that's not to say something like this can't be done by hobbiests, but the chances of the project succeeding are really not very favourable. I'd be surprised if even 1 out of 1000 projects were ever finished. Very surprised.

Also, you have to find a way of making all the parts work together. Getting one person's code to work with another person's code can be quite a bit harder than you expect. The peices don't often fit nicely together, and data that is expect in one part just isn't always available due to the way another person wrote their part. You'd need a VERY detailed overall design if you really expect to get all the pieces together in a reasonable way. Not to mention the chances of such an overall plan being sound/bug free is very slim. You're probably gonna have to deal with changes along the way.

Now, to step outside of my narrow world for a second, there are many more parts to making a game than just code. Has anyone stopped to think about the amount of graphics used by Outpost2? It's massive. The tilesets I believe added up to over 2000 tiles. Who has the time, knowledge/expertise to do something like that? And what about all the other graphics? Anyone stop to think about the size of OP2_ART.bmp? That right there says something. Then there is also the interface graphics (menus, borders, buttons, mouse cursors, etc.). If you take a look a Outpost2, you'll notice that not all those graphics are included with OP2_ART.bmp or the tile sets.

Ok, what about sound effects? Just to note, there are a couple hundred of those. Do you know anyone with a cool savant sounding voice? Perhaps have some decent recording equipment? What about music? Anyone here know how to compose somethign half decent? Or do you plan on ripping something off from somewhere else? Or would you just forget about background music?

I guess you might also consider making some movie clips. I guess those aren't strictly required, but it would be a bit of a dissapointment is there were none.

How about agreeing on a story? I've seen a lot of people writting spin off stories. I'm sure you'd have no trouble getting someone to write something, and it can probably be written a lot faster than the game. But what about getting people to agree on a good story? The number of stories that already exists should indicate people have quite different ideas. And do you want one that coincides with the Outpost2 storyline? Or are you giong to allow some divergence from it? I'm sure if someone looked hard enough, they could always find something that doesn't quite jive. So how close is close enough? (And I'm not trying to bash the stories people have written. They're far better than anything I could ever do. )


So yeah, are you sure you know what you're doing?
 

[coolzero]

k and ones again i am to lazy to read what you are all saying though the first "rgenised start is .. .like soo wrong. i dont know if you have any experiance( and i wil atmid i dont have a lot but still some) ... the complexety of making a good game is high .. you dont just start somewhere with coding .. thats like imposible first you need like a drawing with a idea on how to put the code in pieces . and we need a lot of functions .. cous coding everything in the hardcore styl is like way to hard . we realy need to make a guge pile of functions first ...  

[Leviathan]

Hooman they have agreeded to code it in op2, just like renegades.

[leeor_net]

Well, Hooman, just a leg up. I've been programming for many years. I have plenty of skills when it comes down to 3D graphics programming.

After disecting and understanding the internal workings of a complete commercial 3D engine (Quake 2, to be precise), I've gained an upper hand in producing flashy graphics from a handful of numbers.

Of course, I still have no real clue as to how to work with a BSP (binary space partition for those of you new to the scene). I have the concept but the programming means aren't there.

However, I certainly understand the idea of creating a different type of map file using a series of quads rather than a BSP file. That's how WarCraft III does it and that's how I would do something like that.

As far as AI coding is concerned, I have been working on a new system of AI that makes for a completely dynamic experience. Plus, it's modularly based so it can be plugged into any game so that it can make desicions for you.

On top of all that, I started programming when most games were done almost entirely by one person. And not just the coding... the music, graphics, soundsm etc. So I got skilled at working with 2D graphics (for sprites at the time) which I later applied to a total conversion of DooM (original engine) to create textures and new enemies.

Of course, with the advent of 3D games, I had to take a different approach so I'm now very skilled with the 2D texturing required for the polygons of a 3D engine. I am also very good at producing skins for 3D models.

Sounds and music are an afterthought for me. I can't play instruments anymore for s***, so my best friend Tim does it for me. I simply buy royalty free sounds if I need them.

So that's at least where I stand. Game logic someone else can code. Graphics I can do and I can do very well. But of course, a project like that of OP3 (or the proposed OP3) is a serious task and no, would not be finished in a few months. However, if a proper design document is produced, it makes the task a lot easier.

It's early in the morning for me right now so I don't know how much of this is making sense.

[BlackBox]

Yeah, proper planning would be a must.

Leeor: BSP's are sorta old by todays standards, basicaly what it is is a binary tree that maps world geometry, visibility (CSG data), lighting, textures etc, is how I've understood it. Quake2 was one of the first engines to use a BSP for world data, it was fast then but there are much better ways for storing world data now, and a lot faster too.

I've never looked into programmatically how it works (I haven't really dug into 3d engines that deep though), so it's up to you on that one.

However, 3d isn't a concern if they're gonna be developing someting for OP2, which it sorta seems like they are.

[Stormy]

I'd like to clear some stuff up, but we havent really decided on how to release this information.. Guys (the people im working with) once you read this, get on IRC/AIM and we will discuss it.

Also, if youre are one of the ppl who were wanting to help, pm me in irc b/c i need to give you some info. thanks

[leeor_net]

BSP's were first introduced by the DooM engine in the 1980's. Since then, it was redesigned for a full 3D perspective in Quake which was later revised for Quake2 and then Quake3Arena.

BSP's are great for indoor stuff, but as you said, there are other methods.

OctTrees are great for out-door stuff, but I don't really like them.

If I developed a tiled 3D game like warcraftIII, I would create a proprietary map format that describes all of the verts of a quad rather than tri's (it's possible in both DirectX and OpenGL, OpenGL being the preffered 3D API). From that, I can determine which verts get what amount of lighting, what basic colorations (blended with the rendered texture) and so on.

Each quad would contain a texture information set (deciding on what layer of texturing should be applied). The graphic engine would then decide which image to use based on a pallet of tile textures.

Of course, this is a very basic example. The actual format would be a little more complex but is incredibly fast when drawing (I've already done preliminary tests for a different purpose but the concepts remain the same)
 

[lordly_dragon]

well for my part i'm a noob coder with c++ but i may learn fast

i can be help for those topic:

-sound effect
 
-2d op2 style graphics

for the rest well its up to you to assign something to me  


oh and for the devlopment i would sugest this order



firstly create the story:

-mind storm idea and ONE guy make the story then it is voted if its accepted then its this story if not another guy try is luck

secondly: make the basic tech tree, what unit will be there, what building there role etc... only as a document.txt


thirdly and lastly :devlopment of the game with all the information above

[leeor_net]

Added Note about BSP files:

BSP's are the best format today for indoor geometry. It's fast, has precalculated PVS Tables (Potentially Visibile Surfaces)  and is supported by just about every deceent 3D engine today. The only problem with the BSP format is that the good MAP->BSP compilers aren't free and require a license to use in commercial projects.

Either way, I've done some homework ( ) and am now confident in the use of BSP/OctTree/Paging OctTree map formats.

And as far as flashy graphics is concerned, I've learned quite a bit of Cg which I can compile for both OgenGL and DirectX HLSL. Or, I can leave it as a *.cg file and let the program decide what to do with it.

[thablkpanda]

Leave it to you crazy homies to bring logic into it.

Lmao @ Hooman's huge post

And Stormy, not to crush your hopes, dreams, etc. (Honestly I don't care, but i'm not trying to get killed today)

Hooman's big post is right (listen to hooman) there are a helluva lot of projects going around OPU, and honestly, I only have faith in about three-four of them in completion. Projects have to have a LARGE demand for anyone to be interested in helping for free. Like the OPU tool, we all need SIGS/WON to be back up (in a new way/shape/form) and OPU Tool will help to start us on the right track, and integrate Outpost 2, IRC, and a web browser (to help us stay up to date on OPU information).

Outpost:MIA Has a huge fanbase here at OPU, and there are at least fifty-seventy five people that are anxiously waiting for the pre-release to come out, (not enough people for alot of us to help for free though.

Outpost: Renegades has a decent sized fanbase here, because it's a 'Simple' project to add onto the existing game engine and not code a new one.

And.. well I think those are the only ones I really appreciate around here (If I left you out and i'm supportive to your cause, sincerest apologies)

If you continue along your current route stormy, it'll just be you, and maybe one or two people altogether working on your project for yet ANOTHER installment in the OP series. With OP: MIA in the works, I'd suggest helping leeor's cause, instead of attempting your own project, especially if you personally have no coding experience, since coders are one of the most 'valuable' resources to any building project, publicity and graphics designers are menial (again, don't mean to put anyone down) in comparison to the importance of a game engine.

Panda

[Stormy]

So yeah, are you sure you know what you're doing?

Yes we DO know what we are getting into... Youll find out more soon once we post what we've been working on..

People PLEASE stop saying things like : "oh theres too many projects.."
Ive looked in all of those projects forums, and 90% were abandoned, or are on hold....

 

[leeor_net]

Well, engine development and coding is something that's straight-forward enough. Besides, because of the current problem with my OP:MIA development machine, OP:MIA's development came to a screeching halt and has been for some time. It's a true tragedy but there's nothing I can do about it. There's no network for me to move it on and all of the optical drives failed. On top of that, bills and rent and whatnot are just sucking cash out of my bank account and so there's nothing left to replace them.

Besides, this is a nice break from the work on OPUTool (quite frankly, internet/network programming in VB is probably the most challenging thing I've ever encountered... there's just not enough information online and I can't buy books. Of course, Microsoft is no help... typical).

Either way, it'd be nice to move on to something new... it gives me something to do during my down-time periods. I get to brush up on my C++ programming and I get to learn some new techniques and whatnot.