Do you believe...

[Zircon]

She died physicaly of colon cancer, but just before she died, she came out of her coma, her eyes got really big, bigger then her husband had ever seen them get, then she stopped breathing. We think, and hope that what she saw when she opened her eyes was Jesus.

Not to be mean or something but most doctors/scientists would rather agree upon that what she experienced was the last throws of a dying body resulting in... unmeasurable cramp like pain...

That is until the neurons start to dislodge (occurs when the brain doesn't have sufficient oxygen) from each other making the hypothalamus release a very strong anesthesia but that happens about 2-3 minutes after she is declared dead...

The brains of people who have their head chopped off continue to live for atleast 1-3 minutes on some level, but the pain probably throws them into a coma like state. Hers was disturbed on the other hand making the brain react to the pain (big eyes) another way it could have happened is that she was still in coma just that when the body died it also cramped resulting in the probably abnormally large eyes.

If it makes you feel better you can think that the "soul" has already left the body when the pain sets in but dont try to tell me that it aint painless becuase the limbic system that handles among other pain literally goes off the chart...
(just so that i dont have to explain myself later, not all kinds of death are as painful as this, if for example someone dies in their sleep the pain is not as apparent because once it arrives the hypothalamus has already started producing the anesthesia. Lethal injection is also very painful the last couple of seconds (depends on the specific contests of the injection) but not very apparent, drowning can also be very painful as the body will cramp but then fall into coma like state and die that way, i could continue with other kinds of deaths but i wont do that.)

If she was conscious once her eyes went up (although in severe pain) she probably also experienced the so called "tunnel of light" which occurs once dilation of the pupils and a lack of oxygen in the visual cortex (fovea) increases, resulting in a bright center  and an encroaching darkness around it. (sorta like a tunnel vision with a high contrast)
 
But this is all evil science so you can disregard it if you like...

[CK9]

Um, Z, just the fact that you know this much about death is kind of disturbing

[plymoth45]

gee z, thanks for crushing my spirits.

[Betaray]

watch the discovery channel sometime lol

damn z nice  (thumbsup)  

[jesusfreak06]

well z, glad ur bringing this info to us.  the day b 4 my mom passed away she went unresponsive (we didn't go see her b/c my sis and i had a football game to go to and thought, well, we'll have another chance).  Little did we no the next morning my foster parents woke us up crying saying our mom had passed.   We then went and visited her body in the hospital she was stayed at.  BIG mistake. I'll have to live w/ that pic of my mom 4 ever.  Back to the point, every one has different out looks on science (i've never done good w/ that subject untill this past year when i got a b on my report card ever!)  I personally believe what is supposed to happen is gonna.  And plym, if u wanna believe that she might have seen Christ, then more power to ya. In the end, no one really knows what the truth is... evolution or creation.  It's all up to u and how much faith your willing to lay down.

[CK9]

all I have to say is that faith can speak loud, but faith cannot stand alone.

i.e.: If you break your arm, faith in a higher being isn't going to instantly heal it.  Also, in this scenario, if you do not get the proper treatment while it is healing, the bone most likely won't set properly and the arm will have to be re-broken so that it can be healed properly.

[plymoth45]

I believe in science, and i have always done well in science, but I also believe in christ (even though I sometimes loose it at my sister or others, like earlier today). I may sin like that sometimes, but i always repent.

[CK9]

and who here hasn't found it to be fun to be evil every once in a while? *picks up hammer and action figure*  hehehe, batman base ball

anyway, I do not feel that faith has any influence on my life, either way, I'd still choose the same paths that I have taken.

[ZeusBD]

I believe science is a great thing and that they are correct on nearly everything except human evolution. I believe that evolution is a real thing, but only after what God made. What I mean is this: God made everything on Earth, but gave us the ability to adapt and change according to our surroundings. Many species have evolved since God made them. I believe that if you looked at Adam and Eve and then look at a human now, there would be some small differences.

[plymoth45]

I agree, there probably would be some diferences. If the human body wasn't able to adapt to certain conditions then the human race would have long ago preished, hence the reason God made us so we could adapt.

[BlackBox]

all I have to say is that faith can speak loud, but faith cannot stand alone.

You are right and wrong in some respects.

True you'd generally get medical help, but in some cases you'll have gotten all the medical help you can and still have problems (eg. cancer) Faith is the only way you're gonna get anything done about it.

for example: I know about plenty of people who have gone thru all the treatments for cancer... The doctor/hospital/whatever says they will probably die soon.
Then they pray about, have faith that it will be cured, and the cancer regresses (cancerous cells die, uncontrolled cell division slows down / stops).

Now don't say that faith in a supreme being (God) can't help you.

Regarding evolution, I can think of many examples where science itself contradicts itself.

(One example: 2nd law of thermodynamics. It states that time and entropy are directly proportional to each other (entropy basically means disorder, chaos) (study direct variation: as one variable increases, so does the other).
In laymans terms the world will get more chaotic as time continues.

This contradicts evolution.
The generic "evolutionary process" is, as time increases things get more complex/better/more organized (look, referring to 2nd law, T=time, E=entropy, in the evolutionary example TE=k where k is a constant; in other words, inverse variation. Inverse variation is the opposite of direct variation)

So basically, one of those laws or processes is incorrect. And that has to be evolution because it hasn't been proven. the 2nd law of thermodynamics has been proven and continues to be proven every day (the 2nd law explains why things wear out (eg. batteries/lightbulbs die, drive components of cars wear out, highways get damaged, etc). Evolution cannot be positively proven.

[Zircon]

----------Incoming Rant Seek Shelter----------

You Christians have been using that crap since a very long time ago, atleast bring something up that even my guinea pig hasn't already heard about.

What you dont understand is that thermodynamic probabilities are not fixed entities which has led to a widespread and totally false belief that the second law of thermodynamics does not permit order to spontaneously arise from disorder.

In nature there are many things proving this, Snowflakes with their six-sided crystalline symmetry which are formed spontaneously from randomly moving water vapor molecules, Salts with precise planes of crystalline symmetry form spontaneously when water evaporates from a solution. As with the other crap that mustang09-06 posted "One of our days is MISSING, poll on an article about a day missing" you're twisting one theory/fact into something it isnt.

It's as lame as what Ben362 said

common examples of creating things randomly are to take a piece of paper and throw a handful of sand at it, repeat as needed until you have some pre determined composition like the US declaration of independence.

Either you are ignorant or <beep> enough to misunderstand the fact (regarding the current theory) that evolution is an atomic process, as with DNA it cannot specify how a person should look (dont you dare twist "how a person should look"!) or how every bloodvessel or neuron should be placed, it simply creates the fractal patterns which other biological mechanisms then use. (directed primarily at Ben362)

(This is just one explanation, the second law also has small loopholes and some say that while a certain part of a closed system may become more chaotic another part can get more structured. Then we have the ones that say we aren't in a closed system but that's just... odd because the rule would apply anyway... Also if you follow the law to the letter life is essentially impossible, but no one cares to mention that, no... etc etc)

[Betaray]

the thing about entropy is that yes, things break down with time, but that is because they are not able to repair themselves, the main thing that distinguishes living things from non-living things is their ability to repair themselves, using energy to reform proteins to repair their cell structure, that same system would also allow duplacation of the entity (eg reproduction)

if life was not capeable of such a feat, than yes it would break down just like everything else

that same system also allows for modular designs (eg cells) and when a design is modular, it is normally designed to be upgraded (eg hubble)

now with god, do you really think, would make a verson of life so obvisually designed to upgrade itself, and make it so that would not be so?

just the fundamental structure of life seems basicly designed to adjust/change/adapt to new surroundings, if it wasnt than life would never have flurished all accross the Earth

nothing that dosn't adapt to its suroundings would survive them very long, and it is widely known that Earth has gone through some very extreme ecological changes(eg ice age), if life would not have been able to adapt to the changes than most of it would have been wiped out

now the ice ages happoned as recently as around 10,000 years ago, yet we have evendince of life later than 100 million years ago, givin even the fact that those 7 days were millions of years, anamals were all made in the same "day", and if God made it so that adaptation/evolution did not take place, than they would not have been able to survive the climate change

we know that bacteria evolove, we have seen it happon under the microscope, the fundamental structure of bacteria, the system for rearanging proteins, the DNA system that every other cell on earth has is the same

so why would bacteria be granted such a gift, while all of its brethren on earth be denied it, it dosnt make since eathor on a scientific, or spritual scale

myself, I normally don't think about spritural matters much, and thus havn't really thought about wether there is a God or not, I beleave that it is a question that can not be answerd until we die

but somthing like evolution, you can think of it logicly, and when you do, you have to come to the conculsion that life not able to adapt and evolve would be impossible

life is always trying to reach a higher state, that is why the fish came to the land, they could raise their internal body tempreture, and thus acheve a higher rate of matabalism, allowing it to acheve more and better things, to become dinosures

to become man

 

[jesusfreak06]

aaaahhhhhh... more science!   :blink:

i myself, I normally don't think about spritural matters much, and thus havn't really thought about wether there is a God or not, I beleave that it is a question that can not be answerd until we die

well, you can go ahead and do that.  Christianity is nothing but faith and having faith that when you die God will be there.  i'd rather have faith and die and there be no God than to not have faith and die to find that there is a God and u end up going to hell.  so wether there is a God or not better to be safe and try than to take a chance.  

You Christians have been using that crap since a very long time ago...

i may not no a lot about science, but i feel don't need to know about that stuff.  there is no doubt in my mind that God exists and i'll faithfully follow him all of my days.      [/size]

[plymoth45]

Amen Garretsgirl, i totaly agree with you.

[Betaray]

hay, im not saying there isnt a god, somthing had to have created the universe, im just saying that the notion of life not evolving goes against life itself

[plymoth45]

Beta, didn't we say that the human race has evolved, hence the ability of Adaptation.

[Zircon]

You Christians have been using that crap since a very long time ago...

i may not no a lot about science, but i feel don't need to know about that stuff.  there is no doubt in my mind that God exists and i'll faithfully follow him all of my days.  

Sorry about the namecalling :blush: It's just that i see the "the second law of thermodynamics" almost daily because i visit several other forums and it's always the same story down to the letter of what op2hacker wrote. It gets quite irritating dealing with it so many times and then having op2hacker who usually has very intelligent insight bring it up...

[ZeusBD]

God exist's in my mind without a doubt. You can look at the universe forming in the big bang and say "well there one in a quin-tillion chance that it would happen and it just happened to" or you can look at it as God shaped everything just right. What are the chances that the universe would come out just right, and the planet earth just happened to come from a huge rock that couldn't support life and all of a sudden life appeared? Think about it. The atmosphere just happened to be just right so that all of the bad stuff would get blocked out, if one layer had been missing, we wouldn't be able to live here. We just happened to be the right distance from the sun, the air that we breathe just happened to not contain anything that would kill us. There are just too many things that if they were even the slightest bit off, we wouldn't be here right now. Now I know that there is one-in-a-(whatever the highest number possible is besides an infinity) chance that it would fall into place to support life, but wouldn't it be easier just to believe that there is a higher presence that is doing all of this?

[Zircon]

What are the chances that the universe would come out just right, and the planet earth just happened to come from a huge rock that couldn't support life and all of a sudden life appeared? Think about it. The atmosphere just happened to be just right so that all of the bad stuff would get blocked out, if one layer had been missing, we wouldn't be able to live here. We just happened to be the right distance from the sun, the air that we breathe just happened to not contain anything that would kill us. There are just too many things that if they were even the slightest bit off, we wouldn't be here right now. Now I know that there is one-in-a-(whatever the highest number possible is besides an infinity) chance that it would fall into place to support life, but wouldn't it be easier just to believe that there is a higher presence that is doing all of this?

For the love of !

To even begin with i'll quote what i posted earlier in another thread.

Incorrect, this solar system has 8-10 planets (depending if you count pluto and sedna)
Overall you could say each solar system has 4-5 planets. (overestimate underestimate i dunno)

Beyond our solar system there are other solar systems among other Alpha Centauri (4.3-4.4 light years from here) Alpha Centauri is believed (theory) to have one planet that could support life. They have also seen planets where oxygen is streaming from and other tests have shown that water isnt very uncommon in solarsystems.
(water eats certain spectras therefore you can with a mediocre accuracy predict that there are planets with possible water in solar systems)

To get back on the point, if we zoom out alot we get to see the beginning of the "milky way" and the spiral arm we are part of. That single part of the spiral arm consists of billions of solarsystems. That the entire milky way it becomes a lot of solar system with a medium of 4-5 planets. And then if we zoom out even more we will begin to see other "spirals" or discs, if we go even longer these spirals will also begin to form a bigger pattern of its own. This final pattern is formed like a shockwave that is growing. In other words the "universe"

So we have 4-5 planets per solarsystem, which is within a spiral arm consisting of billions of solarsystems which are within a spiral which has several "arms" and the spirals are part of the ever expanding universe. So we have something near infinity multiplied by a billion multiplied by a billion billions multiplied by 4-5.

Counting that there may be one habitable planet in one billion planets (very small amount, there are probably more habitable planets in this number) there are still a pretty big amount of habitable planets out there and perhaps alot of lifeforms.

Take this times for example "the quantum foam" that speaks of the "ovals" A Universe like ours is just a small part of the big picture.

This should correct both CK's understatement *gleee* happy.gif and stick a hole within luweegs "But how in the world do you explain how this planet got so lucky, just the right size, right distance, right temperature, it has to be a act of god. OR just the very existence of life itself, i'm not talking about multi-celled organisms, but the first ones, why did the single celled organisms appear in the first place." balloon.

It's like lottery, the chance is very small. But it does happen. And with so many planets the chances are incredibly good smile.gif In other words, it is rather an impossibility that there would be no other habitable planets.

Second, It wasn't a ROCK! Space dust, nebular remains which in turn is either the result of a supernova gone awry or the death of a black hole expulsing all matter.
Creating a planet is a five stage process (can be discussed) with lots of smaller processes/stages. One of the possible things is that the space dust as observed by the Cassini (although in small very small scale) can amass into smaller objects giving of a very small and faint gravity pull which will create a disc amassing further mass, it continues with other stages and several rebuilds, and saying that the atmosphere wouldn't be hazardous, it's been hazardous and very hot for a long time very long ago. (i will not explain the entire process)

We have already seen planets eating up several parts of the broad spectrum that are in accordance with both water and oxygen. Even mars had water, and lots of it. Possibly life also. A failed experiment of god perhaps?

In essence, no the chance isn't as miniscule as you say and according to possibilities the presence of a supernatural being breaking all known laws is far less likely then the creation of a habitable planet... far less...

(wee, im on a debate spree. I wonder if im just wasting my time or actually creating some additional neural activity)

(isn't it rather strange having this question from a guy who has the "I will use google before asking asking dumb questions" in his signature)

Edit: To answer the original question, yes it might be "simpler". But losing the  astronomical and biological knowledge gained and to be gained from this would cost both our generation and future generations to such a gigantic degree that the years of 2000 would be known as another dark age...

[BlackBox]

Alright, you're entitled to your opinion.

I have seen proof of God. (Don't ask... I'm sure the other Christians here know what I'm referring to, they've had similar experience I'm sure) I haven't seen proof of anything that the scientists have told us with their standard model.

(and I'm gonna believe God, not the standard model unless someone can give me proof that the standard model is true. No one can give that proof).

And, if someone/something is supernatural, do they have to follow laws of physics? No, because they don't exist as any matter or detectable energy.

(The test: go somewhere where you are convinced there is something supernatural. Now, take every instrument you have. First of all try to pick the being up. There's no matter there, you can't. Try to measure the resistance across it with a voltmeter. You can't, the voltmeter will give infinite resistance. Try to measure light output or radioactivity. Nil.)

we know that bacteria evolove, we have seen it happon under the microscope, the fundamental structure of bacteria, the system for rearanging proteins, the DNA system that every other cell on earth has is the same

Yes. It's called microevolution. Adaptation. Whatever you want to call it.

All living organisms change a little thru mutations, and thru sharing genetic material (AKA sex). Bacteria have other ways to transfer genetic material. They can transfer material thru conjugation, with each other AND with viruses.
(And if you don't believe me, go back to 10th grade biology. It's there)

As far as actually believing evolution:

Does it even SOUND realistic? No.
The likelihood of pure randomness producing an exact pattern of A's, C's, G's, and T's (the four bases in DNA) to form a human? Not likely.
The way protein synthesis works? (It's almost like a computer.. many enzymes convert DNA to mRNA, which the ribosome can interpret and attach a string of amino acids to form a protein. There is logic to it, just like opcodes in machine code for computers, there are codons in the RNA strand, which tell the ribosome to either add another amino acid, or stop reading the strand (yes, stop codons). Not to mention after the ribosome releases the string of amino acids, the string folds and forms a final protein. (We don't even know why they fold the way they do yet.. that's why there are programs like Folding@home to test this)

And this happened merely by pure chance?! Probability is at least 1 in 1,000,000,000 (thats 1 billion).

So if we take that ratio:
success rate (1 / 1,000,000,000) = 0.000000001
percentage = 0.0000001 %

for all mathematical intents and purposes, that number is 0. Ask any mathematician: he/she will say you might as well call it 0 because it's too small to be of much use.

That's like saying if I were to go on my Linux box and type at a shell prompt:

Code: [Select]

cat /dev/random

that it would start outputting the contents of say, sheets.vol from op2 or something.

(Note to non unix people: cat is the command to output text from a file; /dev/random is a special file that generates random characters. So the output on the screen would be all sorts of garbled text).

But anyway, I won't debate this anymore.

[Zircon]

Early stage life, the primal soup, Amoebas one celled organisms can facilitate their mitosis (the cell divides) every 5 second or less (as long as the needed energy is present) These simple cells usually dont have much junk dna and are as such vulnerable to most forms of radiation and are generally very weak. Thus the risk of mutation is very high and propably occurs at every mitosis.
Now counting that they do this every 5 seconds and that they've had milions upon millions of years that seemingly small percentage is bound to happen more then once. And we cannot forget about the Quantum Probability mechanics making the inconceivable come through, such as the laser beam that can predict the future. (when having two paths this laser will "somehow" always choose the path (during very specific circumstances) leading to another mirror while it should using normal physics either divide (logicly) or atleast make it 50/50) (it's worth to note that i am not sure if it's bogus or not... But they think that it's the same principle as the fact that Kvanta (quantum) cant decide which way they are really spinning until someone observes them.)

Also interesting to note is that if evolution did happen it didn't say poof and there we have a human, amoebas evolve to do something better yet seemingly simple. They evolve to do other things, perhaps a light receptor. And as it continues life will take shape. Sometime during this period normal cells and mitochondria decided to join one another in symbiosis allowing for huge steps within the ladder of life.

Mitochondria really are fascinating because they are not included in either the eggs of a woman or the seed of a man. But joins new life inside the womb, although acting like a virus it is the energy center of all life... This is why among other many clones fail because the mitochondria are not present/able to "infect" the cells. This including that a dna strain from an already old cell has an old set of telomeras which made the seemingly newborn Dolly (the sheep) as old as the original.

blah blah blah blah........
(wanders of into deep thoughts)

[Sammyk]

Second, It wasn't a ROCK! Space dust, nebular remains which in turn is either the result of a supernova gone awry or the death of a black hole expulsing all matter.
 

how did that 'space dust' or 'black hole' get there. it didnt just appear out of no where.  

[Zircon]

A black hole is the result of a heavy sun imploding into itself after running out of its fuel.

The space dust is then thrown out of the black at the end of it's existance.

Space dust, nebulas and other stellar matter also come from unused matter since the bigbang, planets crashing into each other or simply smaller dying stars that will throw layer and layer of itself into space. etc etc...

As for the creation of matter itself we have to look at the bigbang, now what caused the bigbang is largely unknown and i dont have either the brains or the knowledge to answer what there could have been before. Except that the bigbang isn't a new thing as our universe has probably expanded, and then collapsed to then trigger another bigbang. Quantum Physics theory (foam version) speaks of the "universes" as in ovals that i've already mentioned before. (refer to previous posts scattered around the forum)

Now to answer atleast what i can do, as said i dont have an answer for what existed before the very first big bang but once the bigbang occurs resulting in a very big explosion and tremendous amounts of energy which is made out of Quarks, leptons and gluons. When subatomic particles like the many different forms of Quarks plus Gluons and leptons are superheated they join in a Quark-Gluon plasma that lasted for about 0,000001 (just an approximate) seconds after the big bang. (Quark-Gluon plasma has been proven by the RHiC in the US) As Quark-Gluon plasma cools down it forms into bigger structured groups that schools like to call Protons and Neutrons. (This has also been proven by CERN in the US that a Quark-Gluon plasma can indeed create matter by first pulling them apart and then reintegrating, if there ever will be Replicators it will probably be based on pulling matter apart and then recombinging them using a superheated Quark Gluon plasma.)

After the creation of protons and neutrons they will further combine to create the basic structure of all, Hydrogen and Helium. (Also proven by the RHIC in the US)

Now that "matter" has been created, space dust and the later creation of black holes is a fact. Did that answer your question little sammy?

(Ofcourse, you can always blame the scientific community of the US of having a gigantic conspiracy in bond with the devil in order to "harvest" as many souls as possible) or perhaps you'll simply point and laugh that i cant explain what went on before the big bang which is 100% proof that god exists, evolution is false, and that im just a mindless drone trying to suck your brains out...  :heh:

[Betaray]

I do not see why people waste their time in this debate about weather God exists or not, it is a debate that has been raging for 2000 years, and you guys think that it can be rectafied in a offtopic forum?

no, human brains are unable to comprehend the etherial state, no matter what we do, we will never understand any of it, it is physically impossible

if you say you do, you eather made it up, or had somone else that made it up brainwash you

this is why I hate talking about this subject, the blaitent ignorence of the people discussing it, they preach about somthing they have no understanding about, I mean for all we know the bible could have been an entertainment novel!!!

We have the ability to think logicly, and to question other peoples and our own thoughts, if there is a God, he gave us that ability, or allowd us to aquire that ability

THAN WHY ARE YOU NOT USING IT??

people blidly follow the people who preach this, never questioning the trueness of it, never thinking it through and comming up with their own thoughts on the subject

thats the thing that makes religion differ from other things weve been taught, for some reason people just accept it, they dont try to improve it, or change it, they think the same way that people thought back in the dark ages, and that stagnation of human thought discusts me, and it should you

I think religion has taken much too much of a role in peoples lives, for one it serves no purpose, if there is a God in infonate love, infonate compassion, infonate patiance, do you really think he would punish you with the same sentence as he would somone who committed murder? if he does, he does not deserve to be God

another reason I stated above, it is impossible to comprehend, everything people have been arguing about is eathor scientific fact, or pure speculation, you cant base and argument on speculation, no matter how long its been around, or how many people beleave it, it wont hold up to cold hard fact

and the thing about evolution being a random prosses, in the beginning mabe, but after life began evolution became a branched linner process

to go back to my ice age argument, do you really think that the anamals evolved randomly? heck no, if that happoed we would still be wating for a type of anamal to survive it, or evolution happonds in a fairly logical process, the weather gets colder, so the DNA changes so that the hair follicles grow longer thicker hair, or the fat under the skin increases

life evolves to benafit life, no other reason, it changes or it dies, it learns, for DNA it may take hundreds mabe thousands of genarations, each differing from the other by a very small margin, but eventually it gets done

take the garaff for example, for each genaration of garaff the neck lenghens on average 1/4 of an inch, in order for them to reach ever higher leaves

the flounder, both eyes are on one side of its head, yet when it is born its eyes are on both sides of its head, and one of them slowlymigrates to the other side, why would it do that if it was origionally created this way? it has been long known that anamals in their fetal state show the same carictersitics as anamals of lower biologoical complexity

for example human, and in fact every vertabre in the fetal state, wether in an egg or in a utirus, has gill slits

of corse you might say "well what if God wanted them that way?" another speculation, and this time a speculation on the phycoligy of God, wich of corse is impossible

and thus you can see that that argument holds no water, nor does any other argument based on the Bible like I said, it might be fiction, what would stop it from being so?  the only thing that people have linked it to fact was that they have found citys that it described, they say that because it describes those citys that it must be true

well I know of alot of novels that describe modern-day citys in very good detail does that make them true, of corse not, so why would it validate the bible?

this is stuff I have never said before, because normally I dont like confilct, but I am hungry and thus pissed and thus dont give a crap on what anybody else says

this has been my :Betaray: :bump: