Air units...

[Norsehound]

I might be too late to influence this conversation but I might as well add some thoughts.

I agree that air units would unbalance the game and take away from OP2. Although when you think about it the Outpost series was supposed to be based on possible advances in technology in the near future, so I suppose one could argue that airplanes are a necessity.

However, I feel that something as advanced as a VTOL might be too expensive for a new colony to handle. I mean, look at how expensive tigers are and they are the closest things to modern tanks (Treads, heavy armor, etc).

If I were to really include an air unit it would be a scout with a moving light. Something like the Drone planes that they use in the military now. If they attack anything it would be maybe dropping one or two bombs nothing more. One of these circling the base might be handy in an OP3 game.

[knux]

Well I am reading what people think of the air units and a lot of people don't like them. If I get enough negative feedback, then I might not include them.
I'm still deciding...

[TH300]

Actually the best reason to keep air-units out of Outpost is, that they'd make Outpost to an ordinary game like C&C. I like the need to drive the vecs around cliffs and Lava, bcz it's often hard to attack the enemy or to establish a new colony.

[Leviathan]

I might not include them. I'm still deciding...

well Knux if you want to include them, go for it, just leave a option to turn them off and on in games, like a tech level, or tech selection.

it could add game types / varity to the game. you could have land unit only games etc.

personaly i think they should be included. it will be hard to make the graphics look like op2 i think.

[alice]

arg... bell rang.  I'll type my post later.

[Ezekel]

um... your not considering getting rid of VTOLs... plz don't knux... at least don't do it cos of negative feedback from ppl who haven't even played the game...


i mean, take this example:
i buy RA2 a long while ago, and discover that they've gotten rid of the chronotank ... oh and they added the prism towers... well back then i was a real hardcore RA fan, so i was a bit annoyed, but we are trying for a new game here after all.

besides, when push comes to shove, it is your game after all

so its really your call whether the VTOLs stay or go or whatever. (personally, i think they'll add something to the game, but for those who dislike them, i suppose you could put a line in the maps reading something like:
"atmosphere= 0 (or 1)" ... after all, i'm guessing that the VTOLs will use some form of atmosphere based propulsion (i.e. some high tech jet engine, or chopper blades)

[knux]

I'd like to keep them, at least as an enemy unit. But I will have the transporter.

As for propulsion, they use jets to stay aloft.

[Ezekel]

ok let me sort this out for you all.

the reason there aren't nukes and dive bombers is simple
1: a nuke would be able to kill a lot of people which is not the new terran way of doing things. hence an EMP payload on the EMPmissiles rather then a supernova payload.
2: a lot of the weapon systems are new, let alone other systems. perhaps the transport aircraft was designed to aid colony set up or trade between colonies or evacuation of colonies. well if that were true, then i'm sure some bright military person would see the advantage of being able to quickly bring in reinforcements via VTOL to secure a newly captured area. course, the problem with using VTOL aricraft as filling an attacking role is simple:
A: 1 EMP= no more VTOL. (this is necessary for game balancing, otherwise plymouth has an advantage. in that they could hover the VTOL above an enemy force, EMP missile it then land and unload a lot of spiders and capture a large amount of the force. besides EMP shielding isn't a very common thing in the OP2 universe, perhaps cos using it in large quantities is expensive, or hard to manufacture).
B: if the meteor defense can vaporise a meteor of considerable size, then think what it could do to a VTOL (and meteor defenses are pretty fast at firing.
C: the propulsion system may not have been miniturised enough to build anything less then a flying fortress... which is a heck of a lot of metals, not to mention manpower to create.
D: the propulsion system is unlikely to be cheap, partly for balancing issues (we don't want someone being able to send 20+ transports all loaded with starflare lynxs after all).

[thegrinner]

some points: 1. maybe some units could be only Anti air, some AA and anti ground, and then some only anti ground.
2. make the spaceport more useful... maybe have dropships or weapons satellites or asteroid mines or something.
3. to help with balancing: maybe aircraft themselves need power like buildings, as well as costing a lot and requiring an airport of some sort, like a garage, with six slots and its own capability to build stuff. maybe they dont work without some sort of control tower or something.

anyway, these are just some ideas.

[ZeusBD]

All idea's are needed and welcome. A flying vech of any type would indeed need some sort control tower, or else you'd have every aircraft trying to land in the same spot.

[Betaray]

for the transport VTOL I think it should be able to carry different numbers of vecs according to how big the vec is, lets say we use a storage unit consept, and the VROL has 10 storage units, a lynx would use up 2 storage units so it could transport 5 of them, while a tiger would take up 5 storage units so it would only be able to transport 2

that may mean more programing for knux, but I think that would help balence the game, and add more realism to the game (it shouldnt be able to carry the same amount of 100 ton vecs as 30 ton vecs)

[Ezekel]

perhaps for control tower type things:
you cannot construct air vecs at the factories until you have a spaceport (or an avionics/aeronautical port... mrr just a name change) and a robot command

[Axen]

This seems to be a dead thread, but I'll post my thoughts anyway.
     OK, pro for some type of aircraft:  it would make the game more complex, maybe more interesting, add a new dimension and capabilities.  It might proceed from the need for rapid transport (unless the colonies use a magnetically levitated rail-car system) among the spreading colonies.
     OK, con:  I agree that it might detract from the Outpost feel, but whether or not that happens needs to be tested in practice.  Second, depending on the function of aircraft, there would need to be a whole new weapons balance, i.e. a tank simply cannot target a flying machine--it would be like trying to shoot a flying bird down with a rifle--cumbersome and ineffective at best.
    Now, down to eath:  if the planet in question has an atmosphere similar to New Terra's, then it would be like flying on Mars.  It is possible, but not in the conventional sense.  I read a book once (The Labyrinth of Night) that discussed future manned exploration of Mars in terms of the near future.  The aircraft transported from Earth, if I remember correctly, used a modified gas turbine (I'm not sure) with internal fuel stores--a small, one-man affair.  Because the atmosphere is thin, control surfaces (i.e. ailerons and elevons) are rendered useless.  Aerodynamic control is supplied by the expulsion high-pressure gas through control nozzles--much like on the Space Shuttle.
   Anyway, Knux, I hope you don't give up on a good idea simply because of popular opinon.  I hope you do well on your game.

Best regards,
Axen

[knux]

This seems to be a dead thread, but I'll post my thoughts anyway.
     OK, pro for some type of aircraft:  it would make the game more complex, maybe more interesting, add a new dimension and capabilities.  It might proceed from the need for rapid transport (unless the colonies use a magnetically levitated rail-car system) among the spreading colonies.
     OK, con:  I agree that it might detract from the Outpost feel, but whether or not that happens needs to be tested in practice.  Second, depending on the function of aircraft, there would need to be a whole new weapons balance, i.e. a tank simply cannot target a flying machine--it would be like trying to shoot a flying bird down with a rifle--cumbersome and ineffective at best.
    Now, down to eath:  if the planet in question has an atmosphere similar to New Terra's, then it would be like flying on Mars.  It is possible, but not in the conventional sense.  I read a book once (The Labyrinth of Night) that discussed future manned exploration of Mars in terms of the near future.  The aircraft transported from Earth, if I remember correctly, used a modified gas turbine (I'm not sure) with internal fuel stores--a small, one-man affair.  Because the atmosphere is thin, control surfaces (i.e. ailerons and elevons) are rendered useless.  Aerodynamic control is supplied by the expulsion high-pressure gas through control nozzles--much like on the Space Shuttle.
   Anyway, Knux, I hope you don't give up on a good idea simply because of popular opinon.  I hope you do well on your game.

Best regards,
Axen

That's mainily the reason I'm using VTOL jet propulsion, rather than propellars and large wings.

Plus I do believe a tank can target a flying object, but it would have to be built solely for that purpose. I suppose that's a bit of a spoiler there.

[Ezekel]

well what about um laser defense... (if they can target EMP missiles and asteroids i'm sure a slower moving VTOL would be easy)

... and perhaps lasers would have an effect... after all a laser beam travels at 3X10^8 m/s ... not likely that the laser turret will miss then considering the low range...


its sorta like in total annhilation i suppose... all weapons can hit air, its just an artillery cannon has too low a rate of turn on its turret and too low a rate of fire to ever hit an aircraft, whereas homing missiles and flak turrets are very good at it

[Axen]

Oooh, a spoiler!  Yeah, I figured that would be the solution--a special tank/turret with rapid target acquisition.  Sort of like the anti-missile Gatling guns on some Navy ships?  Or more of a flak approach?  (probably better kept secret, more fun).

[Leviathan]

I like the idea of air units, it would expand the game play.
Transports is the best idea.
anway if other air units r going 2 b used there should b bommers and u can build anti air turrents 2 take them out. Like in CnC Red Alert.