Outpost Universe Forums

Projects & Development => Inactive Projects => GORF => Outpost 3: Alien Worlds => Topic started by: kirby on April 09, 2004, 03:25:01 PM

Title: Air units...
Post by: kirby on April 09, 2004, 03:25:01 PM
I've read talk of air units in op3, and while i admit that i love the idea, somethig about it is bugging me. flight principals on earth depend on air pressure, something new terra doesn't have very much of. you cant even keep a chopper airborne where the air is too thin, let alone take off.
I was just wondering what everyone exactly has in mind for these vecs, like wether they are using some sort of magnetic hovering technology (op2 wasnt really that far into the future, so the technology shouldnt be too advanced), or something like ultra-light craft with extremely broad wings...

ps: if anybody tells me they are going to be like the bobcats on the divine order mods page, i'm going to shoot myself in the face.
Title: Air units...
Post by: xamlit on April 09, 2004, 05:50:56 PM
Air units are crazy and cliche.... In other words....useless
Title: Air units...
Post by: zeritou on April 09, 2004, 07:40:33 PM
air units are going to happen, garret will come up with a way, dont ruin everyone's hopes kirby
Title: Air units...
Post by: TH300 on April 09, 2004, 07:42:24 PM
Don't need air-units, bcz. they just don't belong to Outpost2.
In my opinion they'd make the game too confused.
Title: Air units...
Post by: CK9 on April 09, 2004, 07:51:16 PM
I don't think air units is a good idea, however, hover units would be neat.
Title: Air units...
Post by: kirby on April 09, 2004, 10:33:13 PM
I'm not for or against it at the moment, i just heard it was a possibility. I'm only going to start criticizing the idea after i hear how it's planning on being done  :whistle:
Title: Air units...
Post by: ZeusBD on April 09, 2004, 11:46:22 PM
Jet engines are a possibility. They could propell the air craft forward, and if made like a (I can't think of the name, it's a plane that can hover and takes off straight up) and it could have a different type of fuel that we haven't seen on earth, so it might be able to stustain flight longer, or maybe it would have to land every now and then to refuel?
Title: Air units...
Post by: Phantom on April 09, 2004, 11:48:59 PM
Quote
(I can't think of the name, it's a plane that can hover and takes off straight up) and it could have a different type of fuel that we haven't seen on earth, so it might be able to stustain flight longer, or maybe it would have to land every now and then to refuel?

I think you are talking about VTOL aircraft (Vertical Takeoff and Landing)

Anyways, I think the X-32 and the Harrier are the only ones with the system thus far.

Anyways, back on topic,
I think aircraft would take away from that Outpost feel. I would not be agains't hover vehicles though.
Title: Air units...
Post by: ZeusBD on April 09, 2004, 11:53:17 PM
That was on topic Phantom....and yes the Harrier was what I was trying to think of. Why not have a vec like that, and what I was saying is that that is how something could sustain flight on New Terra or where ever the game is going to take place.
Title: Air units...
Post by: knux on April 10, 2004, 06:21:42 AM
The VTOLS will make use of magneto-hydrodynamic thrust. A form of jet propulsion. Plus Op3 isn't on new terra.

They will add an interesting change to the game. But they do require rearming as all air units do in games. Otherwise they would kill all.
Title: Air units...
Post by: kirby on April 10, 2004, 08:14:43 AM
Not on new terra... i didnt take that into consideration. Well, what kind of environment(s) do you plan on using then?
Title: Air units...
Post by: Zircon on April 10, 2004, 08:47:32 AM
Read about the magneto-hydrodynamic thrust, it needs a highly ionized environment to work though, like salt-water.

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/Users/groups/Ca...ts/GROUP_06.PDF (http://www.rose-hulman.edu/Users/groups/Catapult2001I/reports/GROUP_06.PDF)
Interesting  ^_^ Perhaps this means New "New Terra" has a very thick ionized environment.

There was also the Magnetoplasmadynamic (MPD) thrusters that use the Lorentz force
 (a force exerted on charged particles by magnetic and electrical fields in combination) to generate thrust. MPD thruster technology has been explored academically, but commercial interest has been low. In theory, such thrusters could produce extremely high specific impulse.

MPD like MHD also suffers from huge corrosion.
Title: Air units...
Post by: it2000us on April 10, 2004, 10:50:56 AM
Hmmm, inteligent words from Z, as always.
Title: Air units...
Post by: Zircon on April 10, 2004, 12:47:02 PM
I cant help it *sob* :blush:

I know a bit about it because it's part of a project.
Title: Air units...
Post by: it2000us on April 10, 2004, 12:53:20 PM
Its ok, its ok Z, u dont have to hide you'r inteligense. Push away you'r stupid side and release the smartness.
Title: Air units...
Post by: Zircon on April 10, 2004, 01:08:33 PM
*mew* Dont feed my ego, it isn't healthy for me...
Aha *points* So that is your plan, you plan to eliminate me *shocked* Sneaky methods IT, sneaky :ph34r:

To get back on topic, i wasn't exactly thrilled about the aircrafts when they were first mentioned.
If they are like in Dune 2000 (as in pretty useless) and only acts as a better kind of transportation and support (example: VTOL) then goodie goodie.
It isnt fun having a dozen of Orcas (bombers) in C&C:Tiberian sun easily blasting enemy bases to tiny bits.
Title: Air units...
Post by: kirby on April 10, 2004, 01:44:30 PM
Let's think about this logically...
Its a war. You have aircraft, you have an enemy, what do you do? You bomb them. Using aircraft purely for transportation really wouldnt happen if this were a real life situation, but then again, this is outpost (thinks back to the EMP missile). Who knows what's going to happen.
One could use the argument that the aircraft need to remain light, so they decided not to equip them with weapons, but that really wouldnt make much sense if they were being used to transport 100+ ton vecs.
Not that i'm trying to start an argument or anything...
Title: Air units...
Post by: Zircon on April 10, 2004, 02:17:58 PM
The point was that in Tiberian Sun the orcas were overpowerful, it took 2 orcas with full payload to take out a construction yard (op2 equivelant: The CC & construction factory) and you could easily amass a dozen of them.

It's like putting an atomic bomb into op2, the technology exists and it's effective as a weapon but it tips the fine balance between units in op2.

Even Dune 2000 had combat aircrafts but they were rather used to soften an area before the main troops arrived, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Title: Air units...
Post by: ZeusBD on April 10, 2004, 11:58:56 PM
Lol, I could imagine an atomic bomb in OP2, you would kill them and you all in one go.

What about like on Earth: 2150, they had planes and could drop mini nukes that basically took out everything within a certain radius? We don't have to have a bomb that will blow any everything. Make them expensive, but very deadly.
Title: Air units...
Post by: kirby on April 11, 2004, 06:48:06 AM
We have supernovas, they work just fine..
heh, one time i had a fleet of supernovas that was being assaulted by 30 emp missiles, only one made it thru, it got to the edge of the guy's chain of spaceports... yea he quit after that.
Title: Air units...
Post by: BlackBox on April 11, 2004, 12:27:42 PM
You could use rockets for flying units.

If you do use flyers, it should be limited, like the Harriers in RA2.... you can't easily "explore" with them, they have one purpose of fly somewhere, drop the bombs, and go right back.
Title: Air units...
Post by: Jgamer on April 11, 2004, 08:52:49 PM
seeing as the aircrafts use magnetical forms as propulsion (MHD Prop) tey would be EXTREMELY easy to kill with just 1 shot of emp, causing them fo fall and be destried
Title: Air units...
Post by: kirby on April 12, 2004, 05:43:11 AM
or, possibly, fall and be not only extremely damaged, but open for capture... i like this idea
Title: Air units...
Post by: knux on April 17, 2004, 07:14:32 AM
VTOLS do have to land, when they are not moving. Therefore when, landed they are open to attack from ground units.

The MHD tech would mainly be used to reduce the air friction and improve engine output.

The VTOLS are small and cannot hold too powerful weapons as they would be too unbalanced and too slow. They will mainly be used as bombers and quick strike craft.

The vehicle transporter will not be armed and will be slow and open to attack.

The only super powered weapon would be available late in a multiplayer game. The eagerly awaited attack sattelites.
 
Title: Air units...
Post by: Kramy on April 17, 2004, 12:47:55 PM
I like the idea of a "scout aircraft" for later in the game, when scouts die too easy. Maybe it could be made at the spaceport or something. I don't think aircraft would fit in outpost though. Hover tech is neat though. For a hefty cost, you can go right over lava and into the back of your enemy's base. :P
Title: Air units...
Post by: Norsehound on May 03, 2004, 05:55:16 PM
I might be too late to influence this conversation but I might as well add some thoughts.

I agree that air units would unbalance the game and take away from OP2. Although when you think about it the Outpost series was supposed to be based on possible advances in technology in the near future, so I suppose one could argue that airplanes are a necessity.

However, I feel that something as advanced as a VTOL might be too expensive for a new colony to handle. I mean, look at how expensive tigers are and they are the closest things to modern tanks (Treads, heavy armor, etc).

If I were to really include an air unit it would be a scout with a moving light. Something like the Drone planes that they use in the military now. If they attack anything it would be maybe dropping one or two bombs nothing more. One of these circling the base might be handy in an OP3 game.
Title: Air units...
Post by: knux on May 11, 2004, 11:37:27 PM
Well I am reading what people think of the air units and a lot of people don't like them. If I get enough negative feedback, then I might not include them.
I'm still deciding...
Title: Air units...
Post by: TH300 on May 12, 2004, 02:54:25 AM
Actually the best reason to keep air-units out of Outpost is, that they'd make Outpost to an ordinary game like C&C. I like the need to drive the vecs around cliffs and Lava, bcz it's often hard to attack the enemy or to establish a new colony.
Title: Air units...
Post by: Leviathan on May 12, 2004, 05:15:55 AM
Quote
I might not include them. I'm still deciding...
well Knux if you want to include them, go for it, just leave a option to turn them off and on in games, like a tech level, or tech selection.

it could add game types / varity to the game. you could have land unit only games etc.

personaly i think they should be included. it will be hard to make the graphics look like op2 i think.
Title: Air units...
Post by: gpgarrettboast on May 14, 2004, 07:27:24 AM
arg... bell rang.  I'll type my post later.
Title: Air units...
Post by: Ezekel on May 17, 2004, 11:18:03 AM
um... your not considering getting rid of VTOLs... plz don't knux... at least don't do it cos of negative feedback from ppl who haven't even played the game...


i mean, take this example:
i buy RA2 a long while ago, and discover that they've gotten rid of the chronotank ... oh and they added the prism towers... well back then i was a real hardcore RA fan, so i was a bit annoyed, but we are trying for a new game here after all.

besides, when push comes to shove, it is your game after all

so its really your call whether the VTOLs stay or go or whatever. (personally, i think they'll add something to the game, but for those who dislike them, i suppose you could put a line in the maps reading something like:
"atmosphere= 0 (or 1)" ... after all, i'm guessing that the VTOLs will use some form of atmosphere based propulsion (i.e. some high tech jet engine, or chopper blades)
Title: Air units...
Post by: knux on June 03, 2004, 08:40:49 PM
I'd like to keep them, at least as an enemy unit. But I will have the transporter.

As for propulsion, they use jets to stay aloft.
Title: Air units...
Post by: Ezekel on June 10, 2004, 03:44:16 AM
ok let me sort this out for you all.

the reason there aren't nukes and dive bombers is simple
1: a nuke would be able to kill a lot of people which is not the new terran way of doing things. hence an EMP payload on the EMPmissiles rather then a supernova payload.
2: a lot of the weapon systems are new, let alone other systems. perhaps the transport aircraft was designed to aid colony set up or trade between colonies or evacuation of colonies. well if that were true, then i'm sure some bright military person would see the advantage of being able to quickly bring in reinforcements via VTOL to secure a newly captured area. course, the problem with using VTOL aricraft as filling an attacking role is simple:
A: 1 EMP= no more VTOL. (this is necessary for game balancing, otherwise plymouth has an advantage. in that they could hover the VTOL above an enemy force, EMP missile it then land and unload a lot of spiders and capture a large amount of the force. besides EMP shielding isn't a very common thing in the OP2 universe, perhaps cos using it in large quantities is expensive, or hard to manufacture).
B: if the meteor defense can vaporise a meteor of considerable size, then think what it could do to a VTOL (and meteor defenses are pretty fast at firing.
C: the propulsion system may not have been miniturised enough to build anything less then a flying fortress... which is a heck of a lot of metals, not to mention manpower to create.
D: the propulsion system is unlikely to be cheap, partly for balancing issues (we don't want someone being able to send 20+ transports all loaded with starflare lynxs after all).
Title: Air units...
Post by: thegrinner on July 13, 2004, 08:53:02 PM
some points: 1. maybe some units could be only Anti air, some AA and anti ground, and then some only anti ground.
2. make the spaceport more useful... maybe have dropships or weapons satellites or asteroid mines or something.
3. to help with balancing: maybe aircraft themselves need power like buildings, as well as costing a lot and requiring an airport of some sort, like a garage, with six slots and its own capability to build stuff. maybe they dont work without some sort of control tower or something.

anyway, these are just some ideas.
Title: Air units...
Post by: ZeusBD on July 14, 2004, 09:20:28 AM
All idea's are needed and welcome. A flying vech of any type would indeed need some sort control tower, or else you'd have every aircraft trying to land in the same spot.
Title: Air units...
Post by: Betaray on July 14, 2004, 04:41:14 PM
for the transport VTOL I think it should be able to carry different numbers of vecs according to how big the vec is, lets say we use a storage unit consept, and the VROL has 10 storage units, a lynx would use up 2 storage units so it could transport 5 of them, while a tiger would take up 5 storage units so it would only be able to transport 2

that may mean more programing for knux, but I think that would help balence the game, and add more realism to the game (it shouldnt be able to carry the same amount of 100 ton vecs as 30 ton vecs)
Title: Air units...
Post by: Ezekel on July 16, 2004, 11:31:02 AM
perhaps for control tower type things:
you cannot construct air vecs at the factories until you have a spaceport (or an avionics/aeronautical port... mrr just a name change) and a robot command
Title: Air units...
Post by: Axen on August 28, 2004, 12:59:33 PM
This seems to be a dead thread, but I'll post my thoughts anyway.
     OK, pro for some type of aircraft:  it would make the game more complex, maybe more interesting, add a new dimension and capabilities.  It might proceed from the need for rapid transport (unless the colonies use a magnetically levitated rail-car system) among the spreading colonies.
     OK, con:  I agree that it might detract from the Outpost feel, but whether or not that happens needs to be tested in practice.  Second, depending on the function of aircraft, there would need to be a whole new weapons balance, i.e. a tank simply cannot target a flying machine--it would be like trying to shoot a flying bird down with a rifle--cumbersome and ineffective at best.
    Now, down to eath:  if the planet in question has an atmosphere similar to New Terra's, then it would be like flying on Mars.  It is possible, but not in the conventional sense.  I read a book once (The Labyrinth of Night) that discussed future manned exploration of Mars in terms of the near future.  The aircraft transported from Earth, if I remember correctly, used a modified gas turbine (I'm not sure) with internal fuel stores--a small, one-man affair.  Because the atmosphere is thin, control surfaces (i.e. ailerons and elevons) are rendered useless.  Aerodynamic control is supplied by the expulsion high-pressure gas through control nozzles--much like on the Space Shuttle.
   Anyway, Knux, I hope you don't give up on a good idea simply because of popular opinon.  I hope you do well on your game.

Best regards,
Axen
Title: Air units...
Post by: knux on August 29, 2004, 12:24:56 AM
Quote
This seems to be a dead thread, but I'll post my thoughts anyway.
     OK, pro for some type of aircraft:  it would make the game more complex, maybe more interesting, add a new dimension and capabilities.  It might proceed from the need for rapid transport (unless the colonies use a magnetically levitated rail-car system) among the spreading colonies.
     OK, con:  I agree that it might detract from the Outpost feel, but whether or not that happens needs to be tested in practice.  Second, depending on the function of aircraft, there would need to be a whole new weapons balance, i.e. a tank simply cannot target a flying machine--it would be like trying to shoot a flying bird down with a rifle--cumbersome and ineffective at best.
    Now, down to eath:  if the planet in question has an atmosphere similar to New Terra's, then it would be like flying on Mars.  It is possible, but not in the conventional sense.  I read a book once (The Labyrinth of Night) that discussed future manned exploration of Mars in terms of the near future.  The aircraft transported from Earth, if I remember correctly, used a modified gas turbine (I'm not sure) with internal fuel stores--a small, one-man affair.  Because the atmosphere is thin, control surfaces (i.e. ailerons and elevons) are rendered useless.  Aerodynamic control is supplied by the expulsion high-pressure gas through control nozzles--much like on the Space Shuttle.
   Anyway, Knux, I hope you don't give up on a good idea simply because of popular opinon.  I hope you do well on your game.

Best regards,
Axen
That's mainily the reason I'm using VTOL jet propulsion, rather than propellars and large wings.

Plus I do believe a tank can target a flying object, but it would have to be built solely for that purpose. I suppose that's a bit of a spoiler there.
Title: Air units...
Post by: Ezekel on August 29, 2004, 05:51:03 AM
well what about um laser defense... (if they can target EMP missiles and asteroids i'm sure a slower moving VTOL would be easy)

... and perhaps lasers would have an effect... after all a laser beam travels at 3X10^8 m/s ... not likely that the laser turret will miss then considering the low range...


its sorta like in total annhilation i suppose... all weapons can hit air, its just an artillery cannon has too low a rate of turn on its turret and too low a rate of fire to ever hit an aircraft, whereas homing missiles and flak turrets are very good at it
Title: Air units...
Post by: Axen on September 03, 2004, 10:54:36 AM
Oooh, a spoiler!  Yeah, I figured that would be the solution--a special tank/turret with rapid target acquisition.  Sort of like the anti-missile Gatling guns on some Navy ships?  Or more of a flak approach?  (probably better kept secret, more fun).
Title: Air units...
Post by: Leviathan on September 04, 2004, 08:20:33 AM
I like the idea of air units, it would expand the game play.
Transports is the best idea.
anway if other air units r going 2 b used there should b bommers and u can build anti air turrents 2 take them out. Like in CnC Red Alert.