Motivational quote ;)

[Hooman]

How's this for a motivational quote?

Motivation and needing someone to kick your ass is a beginner mindset.

This goes along nicely with research that suggests motivation comes after you put in the hard work on something, rather than being the cause of it. Momentum creates motivation, not the other way around. Also why motivational speeches and seminars are kind of ridiculous. They're often more about feeling good than actually accomplishing something.


Also related to motivation (and discipline):

Amateurs do things when it’s easy — when they feel motivated to do them. Professionals do things on a schedule.

How many of you are thinking of scheduling something important now? Yeah, "thinking". Is that just motivation?

[lordpalandus]

How does this take into consider demotivating factors? Sometimes people do have tons of positive motivation, but have far more negative motivation, to counter it.

Things like: "I want to embark on creating an ambitious open world game, with no experience." But, they are demotivated by friends and family around them telling them they can't do it, or they only have enough money in their bank account for 6 months of solid development time, or their girlfriend tells them that if they spend all that time on the game, then she'll leave you.

How does one overcome those negative demotivating factors, and remain positively motivated?

I think a lot of these motivational speeches only ever focus on the positives, and never really address the negative demotivational things or how one is supposed to manage them, which are often the cause of derailing projects or stopping projects altogether. In the real world, there is an opportunity cost to any activity, and that means sacrifices must be made to do an activity. Two serious demotivating things that kill projects, is the feeling that you can't do what you want because you are constantly confused, and the feeling that you can't seek help because you don't know the problem and is constantly frustrating. It is after all, what derailed my Outpost 2 like game, and led me to create my text adventure instead, which I'm having a much greater level of success at.

So in the example above, if the person was willing to distance themselves from their friends and family, was willing to go on social assistance/welfare and live a very poor/unhealthy life, was willing to be alone and without a girlfriend, then they could likely keep themselves motivated to see the project through to the end; after all, where there is the will, there is a way. However, realistically, who would inflict that sort of personal hell upon themselves?

Thoughts?

[dave_erald]

Training is nothing. Will is everything.

The will to act

[Zhall]

Taking action trumps everything.

Even if you have no idea what you are doing, if you take action, something will get done.

[Hooman]

Ok, sorry I haven't gotten to this sooner. There's a lot to unpack here.

How does this take into consider demotivating factors? Sometimes people do have tons of positive motivation, but have far more negative motivation, to counter it.

That's kind of my point. It doesn't matter. Or rather, it shouldn't. Not if you have the right mindset. Motivation comes and goes. If you rely on it always being there, you're in trouble. People don't need motivation to achieve big goals, they need discipline.

The danger though, is that most people think they're disciplined, even if they're not. It's easy to think great things about yourself. And if you've been feeling motivated, and been sticking to something every day, it's easy to feel disciplined about it. But what about when you don't feel so great? When you want to sleep in, take naps, goof off, do something else. Do you have a system in place for getting back on track? Discipline only counts when you need it.

How does one overcome those negative demotivating factors, and remain positively motivated?

How do you overcome them? ... you overcome them. What kind of answer do you expect here? A detailed action plan? Or someone to tell you you're a special snowflake and that your problems really are insurmountable, and you should just give up? It's not about overcoming how you feel, or becoming motivated. You accept that you might feel like crap, and just do your shit anyway.

I think a lot of these motivational speeches only ever focus on the positives, and never really address the negative demotivational things or how one is supposed to manage them, which are often the cause of derailing projects or stopping projects altogether.

Yes, you're right. That's one of the reasons why I find motivational speeches to be a waste of time. Everyone's situation is unique, and no general advice can be given that's still actionable. It's your responsibility to figure out your own problems. The people who most often complain about lack of actionable advice are often the ones who don't put in the effort to ask a specific question. They fail to take responsibility for their own problems. They want someone else to just come solve all their problems and tell them exactly what to do. If someone wants actionable advice, they need to ask specific detailed questions.

In the real world, there is an opportunity cost to any activity, and that means sacrifices must be made to do an activity.

Yes, very true. Priorities are important. Obsessing over benefits, while ignoring the costs, is likely to lead to bad decisions.

Related: Two of the biggest problems in life are giving up to early, and not giving up soon enough. Nice broad generalization. Not exactly helpful actionable advice, is it? You still have to figure out when each one applies to your own situation. You also have to bear the consequences of it.

Two serious demotivating things that kill projects, is the feeling that you can't do what you want because you are constantly confused, and the feeling that you can't seek help because you don't know the problem and is constantly frustrating.

Yes! I've experienced this before, and it was the most frustrating experience ever. It was an awful generalized feeling of confusion and frustration, without any clear cause. It just felt like everything was wrong. It took me years to really fully articulate why I had felt that way.

Not too sure what to suggest here. One piece of advice I heard was, when you feel these intense emotions, to lean in, and listen to what they're trying to tell you. Great, but what exactly does "lean in" mean? Nice piece of broad advice, which of course is unfortunately not very actionable.

In your case, it sounds like there is a gap in your technical knowledge somewhere. The question then is what, and how do you learn it.

Things like: "I want to embark on creating an ambitious open world game, with no experience." But, they are demotivated by friends and family around them telling them they can't do it, or they only have enough money in their bank account for 6 months of solid development time, or their girlfriend tells them that if they spend all that time on the game, then she'll leave you.

...

So in the example above, if the person was willing to distance themselves from their friends and family, was willing to go on social assistance/welfare and live a very poor/unhealthy life, was willing to be alone and without a girlfriend, then they could likely keep themselves motivated to see the project through to the end; after all, where there is the will, there is a way. However, realistically, who would inflict that sort of personal hell upon themselves?

Now this is getting fairly specific.

Ok, so... disown your family, leave your girlfriend, dump all your friends, and go live on welfare! Just kidding. Don't do that. Seriously, don't.

Sounds like you have a bunch of people, who should reasonable care about you, trying to tell you something, that you don't want to listen to. Maybe you should put aside your feelings for a moment and listen to what they're saying. Why are they saying it? Maybe you should do what they suggest.

You might also want to re-read what you wrote, and ask yourself if that really sounds "motivating". Do you really believe someone is going to do their best work in that environment?

Also consider if you have any deep invisible fears you are avoiding by not following their advice. For instance, getting a job can be scary and uncomfortable. Maybe you're really just trying to delay or avoid this discomfort.

My advice: Get a job. 1) Having gainful employment can do wonders for your mood. 2) Having the extra income and security will greatly increase your chance of success in your own endeavour.

People who claim you have to go "all in" to be successful are foolish and dumb. What they say is not true. Don't listen to their flawed advice. People who hold regular jobs while developing a business on the side have a much greater chance of success than those who go all in. Going all in can lead to short term thinking, and reduced ability to take risks where they are needed the most. Business involves risk. Successful business invovles risk mitigation. Having a steady income you can live off out, outside the success of your endeavor, will mitigate a huge amount of risk.

If your project is important to you, you will find the time, even with the demands of a full time job. Plus, the restriction in time forces you to focus on the areas that really matter. If you have too much time available, you tend to develop wasteful habits, trying to squeeze results out of areas that really aren't worth it. Go for the big wins.

Disclaimer: I often don't follow my own advice. Much to my detriment. :/

Training is nothing. Will is everything.

To this I might counter with:

Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training

Even if you have no idea what you are doing, if you take action, something will get done.

Indeed. At the very least, you're likely to learn a lot more from the attempt, than simply reading about it.

[leeor_net]

Things like: "I want to embark on creating an ambitious open world game, with no experience." But, they are demotivated by friends and family around them telling them they can't do it, or they only have enough money in their bank account for 6 months of solid development time, or their girlfriend tells them that if they spend all that time on the game, then she'll leave you.

This is an excuse for not being intellectually honest with yourself and refusing to take reality into account. If you have no experience, you're not going to be able to build an open-world game in any reasonable amount of time. Battlecruiser 3000AD is a good example of this.

Two serious demotivating things that kill projects, is the feeling that you can't do what you want because you are constantly confused, and the feeling that you can't seek help because you don't know the problem and is constantly frustrating.

Related to my above answer. This is a case of not being intellectually honest enough with yourself to know what your limits are and not having enough experience to know what the problem domain is. I'm guilty of this -- Outpost 3: Genesis is a good example from my past.

Do you remember me suggesting you try to build a tower defense game? I even went so far as to come up with a rough outline for a 'design doc'. That was a hint.

I find that many times when someone is far too ambitious they fail to take the advice of those far more experienced than they are. Above and beyond everything that seems to be the biggest factor in 'demotivation'. It's something that's created by their own failure to acknowledge their lack of experience, their inability to recognize their limits and it ultimately leads to failure which creates the feeling that "Wow, this is really hard, I can't do this." The reality is that it's "too hard right now because I have no idea what I'm doing" but by going with smaller victories it boosts your morale and allows you to move forward. OPHD didn't come as a project that I sat down one day and just started. I planned a lot of it out because of a long string of failed and half finished projects.

I think I'm starting to lose focus so I'll close here.

[lordpalandus]

@Hooman;

On the surface discipline appears to be something of its own, but in reality it is just a way for a person to self-motivate themselves, generally by using a negative demotivator, as a positive motivator; ie "I have to get this done, or my boss will kill me", or "I've been ordered to run into no mans land, and if I don't I'll be ridiculed by my fellows or court-martialed for disobeying a direct order", or "If I don't complete this project in two weeks time, I'm going to go bankrupt and have to abandon the project." Discipline in reality, is simply using "fear-tactics" to get you to complete a task, when the alternative of not completing the task will often result in a worse outcome. Using fear as a motivator, is a great short-term tool for accomplishing a task you don't want to, but its not an ideal motivator in the long-run as it will result in extreme stress and eventual burnout. Also, discipline doesn't really help you when you are creative energy bankrupt; I've tried, it doesn't work; by bankrupt I mean, my brain aches so hard that it feels like someone clubbed me upside the head, my eyes feel like they are about to fall out of my head, and trying to form even a simple sentence, in a conversation feels like I'm trying to force a migraine upon myself.

The ideal sustaining motivator is self empowerment or self encouragement; not things easily learned however, but far more effective than sheer discipline. As they aren't easily learned, people will regularly fallback on discipline to accomplish tasks, as discipline is easier to learn and is easier to teach. Doesn't mean its better, just easier to acquire.

Of course you solve demotivating factors by solving them. But that doesn't explain how you achieve such a thing. What process do you use to overcome it? What resources at your disposal to you use to problem solve it? I'm looking for processes, procedures, methods, etc... You talk about making things actionable... how do you put into action ways of overcoming problems?

A very good point = "If someone wants actionable advice, they need to ask specific detailed questions."

Self-Analysis goes a long way into making in actionable. Self-analyze if the project you are working on is a turd, and if it is, abandon it. If it isn't, keep working at it. Problem is, particularly for coders is the desire to create a prototype, and then just refactor it. Prototypes are great for testing out ideas, problem solving issues, or producing proof of concepts, but they are not ideal for making a solid foundation for a program and should be tossed out, and restarted from scratch. I've learned that prototyping is great when it is used in the appropriate manner, and have also learned that creating a prototype and then building other stuff ontop of it isn't ideal either; hence why my monster description system is taking so long to address.

Easier said than done. I find that analyzing and bugfinding logical things or syntax comes easily for me, but trying to understand ones own emotions, is a completely different ball game. Some people do not have the mental capacity to accomplish such a task. I can analyze my emotions and have a rough way of solving them, but it takes a significant amount of time to do so; if it takes me 2 hours to find and solve a complex syntax problem in my game, solving a very complex mess of emotions can take anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 years. And unfortunately, there isn't many resources out there that a guy can use to better problem solve their own emotions. As emotions are based more on fuzzy logic and intuition, rather than on hard facts or rules, its very hard to go about solving them.

And yes it is a technical knowledge issue; I've already solved that one... even if it did take me about 14 months to do so >.> and I have a plan in place to acquire that technical knowledge so that I don't run into the same issues as before.

Self-Analysis comes in handy here again. Some people are overly negative, or pessimistic, and will actively try to sabotage other people, whereas some people are more rationally centered and are realists, and are trying to dissuade you from doing a task that they don't think you can achieve. Doesn't mean you can't achieve it, its just that these types of people are not going to be of much help to you. Now, if you have people around you that are knowledgeable in the tasks at hand and have gone through similar things as you, it might be wise to listen to them. It all depends on the type of people you surround yourself with.

However with that said, if you feel that you can accomplish such a task, then it might be a good idea to distance yourself from people who are against you and surround yourself with people that will support you... well, without of course creating an echo chamber, where people will just tell you what you want to hear. Its complicated.

EDIT: However, I will be the first to admit that there are people on the forum here that have provided a lot of useful advice that I have not heeded, to my own detriment. People, like yourself, or leeor. Sometimes my vanity gets in the way of listening, and its something I'm working on.

As for me, there are people that do deeply care for me, but I'm getting mixed signals. Most of them fully support me in my pursuit of creating games but at the same time will tell me when I effed up, but at the same time, there are some who don't think I can accomplish the task of creating a game and are actively trying to discourage me from making a game. So when say people on this forum give me advice, I'm unsure of if they are trying to encourage me or discourage me from making a game, and thus I'm unable to determine if I should listen to them, take what they have to say with a grain of salt, or ignore them. Its complicated.

Well back to the discipline discussion; do you really think someone who is forcing themselves to do a task is going to be doing their best work in that environment either? Sometimes you must make sacrifices to see your dreams become reality, and as such, sometimes life has to suck for a while until you can get to the place you want to be.

I'm not much of a team player, unless I'm the leader. And as my greatest working peeve, is being under an incompetent leader, I have never enjoyed doing paid work, unless I was able to set my own pace and set my own high quality of standards. I find that I actually find the greatest leaders, in volunteer positions, and as such I've greatly enjoyed doing volunteer work. So... right now I'm volunteering at the Salvation Army, weekly, while I work on the game. I find that making the game fulfills my personal pursuit of career goals, while the volunteering helps me to do a service for people and feel like I'm actually accomplishing something. In a paid job though, I doubt I'd feel the same, and if I did take on a paid job, I'd have to sacrifice game development time and volunteer hours... which honestly are what is keeping my mood up these days.

The other reason is I have a friend who is a pretty good programmer, and has a bachelors in computer science. He has tons of experience in a wide variety of languages. However, he hasn't been able to find any programming work for the past 2 years now, and has had to do hard labor jobs instead, like laborer or painting or cleaning work. He has the qualifications, and has the experience, but yet, has gone through about 5 interviews in the past three months, all of which he felt pretty good of, and he got none of them. If someone who has the qualifications, and the experience to do a job isn't finding a job in his field, what chance do I have finding a job I'll like in my own field? I hate interviews and I hate even more when you never get contacted from them again. Its a part of my life that I've put behind me and I have no interest whatsoever in getting a job, unless I'm absolutely forced to. I don't do well in positions, where I'm micromanaged or put on a team, with team expectations; I do well with my volunteer work because, I'm not micromanaged, and the tasks I do, do not require team work; you pack orders yourself and bring them out yourself; team work is optional though. Most jobs, that isn't the case. So, unless I'm the leader in a paid environment, I don't think I'll cope to well with the stress. And I can only be the leader in a work environment, as a sole proprietor, which is why I'm on the path that I am, with my career. I also find interviews to be extremely stressful, to the point where I do not achieve anything creative until I find out that I got the job or not.

Sound advice, but as mentioned above, isn't super applicable to me.

Business does involve risk, and those who don't spend the amount of time necessary to keep it running, will find themselves out of business. Running a business requires dedication and hard work, and if your time and energy is split between a day job and the business, generally both will suffer. That's why successful entrepreneurs will tell you to go all in; having the money from the day job can be good for finances, but its killer on motivation levels, stress levels, and energy levels.

Yes, you can find the time to work on a project between a full-time job, but that leads to very quick burnout and doesn't work too well on creative projects. People have limited creative energy, and full-time jobs demand the best of that creative energy, leaving little to none afterwards. If the project in question is something more menial-labor (ie kitchen renovations) or purely mental (ie doing a school course) it can often be done, but creating a video game is a completely different matter, as I'm sure you are well aware, that creatively creating code burns creative energy like there is no tomorrow; if the coding involved basically repetitious tasks (ie you made a light tank, and now you want to make a medium tank, in the code), then it could likely be done, but creative tasks are generally out of the picture.

You are right however that, having too much time results in wasteful habits, which is something I need to work on.

@leeor_net;

Again, self-analysis can do wonders.

Very true.

I do recall it yes. I also recall that I dismissed it out of a lack of understanding for why you were suggesting it at the time. I understand now the benefit of building a tower defense game, as it would help me to learn how to solve basic common problems, as well as get used to making interfaces, controls, and menus; all very useful things to know. I apologize for being too focused on the RTS to see the value in doing a Tower Defense game.

By having smaller victories, to accomplish the larger ones, is basically the foundation of self-empowerment. It is very good advice to give, again, I was too inexperienced to see the value of the advice, but I do see the value of it now.

Question: As Hooman mentioned above about getting a job and working on the project on the side, and saying that it could be done. So, my question is, now that you have a full-time job again, how is Outpost HD going? Do you feel like you are getting anywhere, or feel the creative urge to work on it? Or are you so tired from the full-time job that you are not able to find any creative energy left to work on Outpost HD, despite it being something you'd like to do? I'm curious at what your response would be.

[Vagabond]

Hmm,

Does anyone feel like making a game is similar to being a craftsman?

What I mean is that if you want to be a sculptor, you cannot continue chipping away at the same piece of marble forever and make it a masterpiece. An amount of previous experience is required with planning to finish a project properly.

So you need to make practice works and other projects over time to build your craft to a point where you can handle the special project you have in mind.

A painter cannot sit down and paint a beautiful picture without hundreds of previous drawings and paintings to rely on, no matter how long he/she sits and stares at the canvas or careful he/she is with each brush stroke?

Maybe it is similar when making a computer game (or software?).

Except you actually can rewrite sections of your software. hmmm.

-Brett

[lordpalandus]

Yes.

Previous experience is important, to an extent. Some projects can be done with no experience, others requires a ton.

Yes practicing ones craft is important, to the point where you can handle the special projects. I liken it to stepping stones; you must take each step deliberately, and complete them, so that you can take the next step as well.

Very true, on the painter.

Its similar, yes.

Technically, you can do the same for other things, like painting or sculpting, its just that it is prohibitively expensive.

Also, it is expensive to have to redo sections of code as well. If you designed and coded it properly from the start, it would take you significantly less time to build it. Yes, coding is an iterative process, but, you can iteratively design it out on paper, determine the logic needed beforehand, and figure out how the code is going to interact with eachother, before writing a single line of code; I know it can be done as, I've done it with smaller-scale prototypes; larger projects would just require more time on paper to figure things out. I figured out beforehand precisely how I wanted it to work on paper, and then wrote the code in Quest, and it functioned precisely as I had designed it to, without fail.

[Hooman]

On the surface discipline appears to be something of its own, but in reality it is just a way for a person to self-motivate themselves, generally by using a negative demotivator, as a positive motivator; ie "I have to get this done, or my boss will kill me", or "I've been ordered to run into no mans land, and if I don't I'll be ridiculed by my fellows or court-martialed for disobeying a direct order", or "If I don't complete this project in two weeks time, I'm going to go bankrupt and have to abandon the project." Discipline in reality, is simply using "fear-tactics" to get you to complete a task, when the alternative of not completing the task will often result in a worse outcome.

Incorrect. Discipline is orthogonal to both motivation and fear. Granted, consequences are very strongly tied to discipline. For a more positive sense of discipline, consider someone who has a sense of the kind of person they want to be, and making conscious decisions to move towards that, regardless of motivation or fear.

Consider the subtle difference between "I have to go to the gym, otherwise I'll be a fat lazy slob, and nobody will love me", versus, "I should go to the gym, because I want to be the kind of person that takes care of my health". I would argue the first is more about fear and being compelled by external forces, while the later is more about discipline and conscious choice. I would also expect the first option to have a much lower rate of compliance than the second option.

Also, discipline doesn't really help you when you are creative energy bankrupt; I've tried, it doesn't work; by bankrupt I mean, my brain aches so hard that it feels like someone clubbed me upside the head, my eyes feel like they are about to fall out of my head, and trying to form even a simple sentence, in a conversation feels like I'm trying to force a migraine upon myself.

Part of discipline is knowing how you function, and making a plan around that, rather than trying to force yourself on sheer willpower alone. It might very well be the proper thing to do is get some rest, get some exercise, eat well, take care of your social life, and then get back to work once that's all been handled. It's not about deprivation. I would argue that if you're constantly making short term decisions, you are being undisciplined. Working 7 days a week is not disciplined. If you can only be productive for 2 hours a day, then set aside 2 hours a day and stick to it. Trying to force 3 hours a day is not being more disciplined.

Easier said than done. I find that analyzing and bugfinding logical things or syntax comes easily for me, but trying to understand ones own emotions, is a completely different ball game.

Agreed 100%.

However with that said, if you feel that you can accomplish such a task, then it might be a good idea to distance yourself from people who are against you and surround yourself with people that will support you... well, without of course creating an echo chamber, where people will just tell you what you want to hear. Its complicated.

Yes, exactly. Stay away from people who bring you down with no cause, but don't be blind to good advice just because it's not what you want to hear. You need to consider where the advice is coming from. The advice might say more about the fears and insecurities of the person giving the advice than anything about you.

there are some who don't think I can accomplish the task of creating a game and are actively trying to discourage me from making a game

"Concern Trolls"
Some people feel threatened by someone else taking on a big project, which might make them feel insecure about their own meagre accomplishments. They may often try to discourage you by listing all the possible problems, why it won't work, why it will be hard, why it won't be useful, why nobody will care. Really it's often their own ego talking. They don't want you to succeed because they might feel jealous or otherwise under accomplished.

Contrast this with people who genuinely care about you, and don't want to see you get hurt. Parents are often guilty of displaying concern in such a way that it discourages people from trying. This can also be unhealthy. Maybe a business venture is a good idea, but there being risk, you might feel bad afterwards if by chance it doesn't work out. This isn't so much concern over no reasonable upside, or lost money, as the emotional after effects, which parents often try to shield you from. They might say things like "well, don't get your hopes up", or "don't worry if it doesn't work out". It's well meaning, but not entirely healthy.

Of course the advice might be that they really do think you'll fail, and that it will cost you, and you would be better off doing something else. Like say, "I don't think you should pay to become a member of that company, it's a pyramid scheme".

Sometimes you must make sacrifices to see your dreams become reality, and as such, sometimes life has to suck for a while until you can get to the place you want to be.

Sometimes is not always. Be careful about this one. You may simply be justifying something that doesn't need to happen. It's quite possible to make many dreams a reality without heavy sacrifices. Don't go believing you have to sacrifice something important to get what you want.

I'm not much of a team player, unless I'm the leader. And as my greatest working peeve, is being under an incompetent leader, I have never enjoyed doing paid work, unless I was able to set my own pace and set my own high quality of standards. I find that I actually find the greatest leaders, in volunteer positions, and as such I've greatly enjoyed doing volunteer work. So... right now I'm volunteering at the Salvation Army, weekly, while I work on the game. I find that making the game fulfills my personal pursuit of career goals, while the volunteering helps me to do a service for people and feel like I'm actually accomplishing something. In a paid job though, I doubt I'd feel the same, and if I did take on a paid job, I'd have to sacrifice game development time and volunteer hours... which honestly are what is keeping my mood up these days.

Woah. Ok, sounds like you have some control issues. You may have experienced incompetent leaders, though you might also be facing issues caused by your own insecurities or defensiveness. It also sounds like you believe all forms of paid work have incompetent leaders. I'd suggest you don't have sufficient life experience to support such a claim. How many jobs are there on the planet? How many jobs have you held? Small sample sizes may not be indicative of the whole. Chances are, you can find paid work, with good leadership.

You might be right that committing your time to doing something meaningful is keeping your mood up. Though that's also one reason why having a job can also be a good thing. Depression and joblessness are correlated. Maybe you just haven't found the right job yet. Maybe there is something useful you can do, and also get paid for. Actually, getting paid for something is generally a pretty good sign of it being useful. (Jokes about the government sector aside).

You might also find that having more to do makes you accomplish more. I found I was most productive on my hobby projects when I had a heavy academic load keeping me busy. The instant I went on vacation between semesters, my productivity on hobby projects would often grind to a halt. It's often not so much about time as it is about energy, and certain activities such as school or work can actually give you energy. It can also give you a nice sense of accomplishment, and a feeling that you can do other things successfully.

If someone who has the qualifications, and the experience to do a job isn't finding a job in his field, what chance do I have finding a job I'll like in my own field?

Irrelevant. Also a very common excuse, though nonetheless an excuse. It's a way people use to justify not taking action. Often there is fear involved in taking action, and people use this as an excuse to avoid that fear.

...

I hate interviews and I hate even more when you never get contacted from them again. Its a part of my life that I've put behind me and I have no interest whatsoever in getting a job, unless I'm absolutely forced to. I don't do well in positions, where I'm micromanaged or put on a team, with team expectations

Exactly. This sounds very much like fear of rejection. You're avoiding what makes you uncomfortable. Now why does it make you so uncomfortable? And don't stop at the surface level reasons, keep asking why of each reason.

You have made up a story to justify not taking action. But how do you know your conclusions are correct? What basis were these conclusions drawn on? Are these really absolutes? Are there any counterexamples? How might you disprove some of these beliefs?

team work is optional though. Most jobs, that isn't the case. So, unless I'm the leader in a paid environment, I don't think I'll cope to well with the stress. And I can only be the leader in a work environment, as a sole proprietor, which is why I'm on the path that I am, with my career.

Really? Why? Is this really the only way? Be mindful of absolutes.

Running a business requires dedication and hard work, and if your time and energy is split between a day job and the business, generally both will suffer. That's why successful entrepreneurs will tell you to go all in; having the money from the day job can be good for finances, but its killer on motivation levels, stress levels, and energy levels.

Nonsense. Many businesses start out as part-time side hustles. People are often excited to work on their personal project after work, and may actually have more energy because the project excites them. Others may carve time out before work, by adjusting sleep and wake hours. Some people just do their own thing on the weekend. It all depends on the person. A side business does not need to be all consuming. And neither does a day job.

Yes, you can find the time to work on a project between a full-time job, but that leads to very quick burnout and doesn't work too well on creative projects.

Burnout comes more from lack of boundaries than from having a lot of work to do. If it's fullfilling work, which you are excited about, it might be perfectly fine to work long hours for extended periods of time, so long as you're not neglecting certain other things.

People have limited creative energy, and full-time jobs demand the best of that creative energy, leaving little to none afterwards. If the project in question is something more menial-labor (ie kitchen renovations) or purely mental (ie doing a school course) it can often be done, but creating a video game is a completely different matter

I think you have a few assumptions here that need to be challenged.

[leeor_net]

Question: As Hooman mentioned above about getting a job and working on the project on the side, and saying that it could be done. So, my question is, now that you have a full-time job again, how is Outpost HD going? Do you feel like you are getting anywhere, or feel the creative urge to work on it? Or are you so tired from the full-time job that you are not able to find any creative energy left to work on Outpost HD, despite it being something you'd like to do? I'm curious at what your response would be.

I haven't made any progress on OPHD since I started my job. Mostly because I've been distracting myself with the game Haven and Hearth (though its novelty is starting to wear off). Mostly I've just been trying to distract myself from reality at all for real life issues that I don't really want to discuss but suffice it to say that the urge to develop is getting hard to ignore now.

People have limited creative energy, and full-time jobs demand the best of that creative energy, leaving little to none afterwards. If the project in question is something more menial-labor (ie kitchen renovations) or purely mental (ie doing a school course) it can often be done, but creating a video game is a completely different matter

I think you have a few assumptions here that need to be challenged.

Going to challenge it right now.

It comes down to time management, something I'm personally not very good at. But that's basically it. For me I needed to distract myself for awhile while I was settling into my new position (and dealing with illness and family matters). Now that that's pretty much in the past, sure, I have a full time job. But that's only 40 hours out of my week. There's at least another 60 waking hours, more if I'm really dedicated, that I can spend at least part of it on my project.

E.g., if I spent only 10 hours a week working on OutpostHD, it would probably already be done. 10 actual hours of actual development (and not putzing around distracting myself with youtube and artwork that I don't really need to be dealing with) is a lot of time and very easy for anybody to give -- think of it, just an hour a day after work for 5 days and then 5 more hours on your weekend, say three hours one day, two hours the next. Done. Generally speaking when I'm on a development kick I spend as much as 10 hours a day working on my projects (on the weekends anyway).

[lordpalandus]

@Hooman;

Consequences, whether good or bad, are strong motivating factors. Incentives and rewards, or simply the absence of pain, are consequences of completing an activity, and thus are motivating factors. However, I will acquiesce and state that my definition of discipline and your definition of discipline may not be the same thing.

Whenever I think of discipline, it is in the form of either military discipline, or a monks pursuit of an ascetic way of living. In the military discipline is there to ensure that soldiers follow orders, lest they suffer consequences and so that when they are under-fire or being shelled, they keep their cool, and remember their training and focus on the task at hand; as if they don't they or the ones around them are going to get hurt or die; thus they use fear as a motivating factor to stay focused... fear of the consequences if they don't. Or with monks, they must live by a strict code of conduct, and will deprieve themselves of things in life, to attain other things, generally spiritual in nature. If they don't deprieve themselves, then they will not get the reward they are seeking, and thus must have discipline to continue to deprieve themselves of things so that they get where they desire to go.

Someone who wants to be someone better than they are currently, has set goals, with incentives to start them and rewards for completing them. Those are motivating factors. I do understand, I think, what you are trying to get at. I am someone who wants to be better than I am, both as a person and as a programmer, and have goals to achieve those things.

Ahh, but that analogy you have there has a hidden negative fear that you failed to mention. Why do you have to go to a gym to stay healthy? Is it fear that compels you to join a gym because you feel that if you don't join a gym, you won't be successful? There are plenty of people who have the ability to keep themselves fit, without ever entering a gym. So I'd still argue that that person is using fear as a motivating factor to visit a gym to stay healthy, rather than one to not join one and remain healthy on their own terms. I bring this up because our society tells us that only those who go to gyms, stay in shape, and thus there is a fear that if we aren't part of a gym, then we cannot meet our health goals.

However as an aside, the desire to be healthy can be the motivating factor and the thing that keeps you remaining at it, to stay on top of ones health.

Also, if you haven't noticed I like to debate and argue a lot. Its one of the ways I find most effective at learning as it allows me to view a problem from multiple angles, by encouraging / inciting responses to make me think differently. ... Even if I don't necessarily want to think differently

Truer words have not been spoken. Well said. ("knowing how you function")

Also good point. Not an easy one to stomach mind you, but a good point. I'm working on it.

Heh, concern trolls. I like it. Sounds like an appropriate title.

True, true.

Depends on the dream and depends on the path to the dream. The path to my dream, is likely to long and hard, which is what I'm basing it off of.

Yep. I like to lead, guide, encourage, and empower others, and hate to be around leaders that are terrible at it. I suppose I do have control issues, but I can't see an easy or simple way to solve that. Some people are workers, some people are leaders and some are innovators; what career path works for some, doesn't work for all. Perhaps true my small number of terrible jobs are not indicative of the whole, but, there is no guarantee I'll find a good job, even if I earnestly look for one, whereas there is a higher guarantee that I can make my own ideal job, by making games. Yes it is an assumption, but the way the world is going these days, its more likely I'll have a more ideal working experience, being an entrepreneur than not.

Depression and joblessness may be related, but I do not feel jobless; I may not be making money, but I do feel "employed", doing something worthwhile, and feel like I'm accomplishing things in life. In order to take on a paid job, I'd have to sacrifice my current "jobs" that are currently satisfying me both mentally, emotionally and physically to "potentially" get something better and get paid. Now THAT sounds risky; I have sufficient funds right now to handle my needs, by living frugally, so I don't necessarily NEED a paid job at this time, anyway. So why should I sacrifice what makes me happy, for something that may give the same level of happiness and fulfillment?

If I got paid for a game sold, that would be a good indication that I'm doing the right thing, right? So, perhaps we should shelve the decision to look for paid work, until after we determine if GoG will stock CoC.

Actually, I find the opposite to be true. When I was working a paid job, I felt completely unmotivated to do anything after work. True, I was being harassed in the workplace, and my supervisor has a personal vendetta against me and made my life a living hell, so that might have something to do about it. Actually, most paid jobs I've had, involved workplace harassment, and ruthless supervisors... might be why I don't want to get a paid job... hmmmmmmmm...

I found school to actually be extremely draining, as I'm not a social creature at heart, and being forced in an environment where you are forced into terrible team roles, having pure theory forced down ones throat, and having teachers drone on in a monotone, I actually found school extremely exhausting.

Similarly, social activities with friends are emotionally draining as well; I still do them as they help to retain my sanity levels, but I generally feel about as drained after an hour long conversation, as I do after creatively coding for 4 hours straight.

---

There is this personality quiz I took = https://www.16personalities.com/  and it overall gave me the "Logician", although I would sometimes also fit into "Commander" and "Architect", depending on the situation. I bring it up, as the Logician is great with being alone and working on things, but socialization of any kind is extremely grueling and exhausting. Take the quiz for yourself and see what it comes up with; its quite uncanny of determining what ones personality is like.

---

Excuse yes, but still valid. Fear, and Risk, in taking action, particularly when the current situation is ideal, and the potential of good jobs, outweighs the higher probability that I'll not get a good job and end up miserable. If there was a way to prove that a given job opportunity was better than the current situation, I might very well take it, but you can't guarantee that. I don't like taking gambles on things that affects my emotional wellbeing, unless I'm absolutely forced into the situation. I know that I have various neuroses, that likely wouldn't be desired by employers and there are neuroses with employers that I highly doubt I will be able to cope with... unless I have no other choice in the matter. Currently I do have a choice.

How do I know it to be correct? Observing others, observing my own industry, personal life experiences, personal neuroses/demons, long years of introspection, long years of terrible forced team cooperation with tons of inherent backstabbing, observing politics and trends in human behaviour, the fact that I'm an introvert and not an extrovert, the fact that whenever I was the team leader we succeeded and destroyed all competition, but when I was just part of the team, bickering, infighting, backstabbing, and politics eventually resulted in everyone eating the bullet, and the fact I'm happy and satisfied with my current situation. Yes, my observations do not imply everything will be the same, but generalizations are a very useful tool for risk mitigation and overall fulfillment in life. And yes, I will also agree that my observations may be flawed, and covered in confirmation bias.

Be careful of absolutes yourself. You are assuming that I can only be happy and successful by getting a paid job, and are refusing to consider that I might be able to achieve my goals and career plans without getting a paid job. I have found that over the past 30 years of my life that when I am the leader, things operate smoothly and everyone wins and when I'm not the leader, things crash and burn, and I often get blamed for it, despite pulling my own weight. I don't think I can cope with the stress because I'm tired of being harassed in the workplace and attacked by zealous supervisors with unrealistic expectations. All of my paid jobs, had these issues. I could cope with the stress before, because I didn't have all the much on my plate; I have a lot of things on my mind and a lot of concerns as well. In general, I do not cope with stress too well, and will bottle it up and explode violently later. When I'm under heavy workplace stress, I do not function well and this leads to further attacks and harassment, which further derails me. I have no interest in being part of a workplace where I feel I'm under threat while there and under threat if I leave the place, due to stress related issues. Its a no win situation. Whereas, my current situation, I have enough funds to handle things at the moment, and I feel fulfilled by doing volunteer work and engaged with coding (even if the coding issues are huge and annoying right now) and thus I see no reason to torture myself in going looking for work.

Perhaps, perhaps.

Very true.

What needs to be challenged?
1. People do have limited creative energy. Fact.
2. Jobs demand the best of your best, lest they fire or demote you. Fact.
3. Game developers that take on full-time jobs, while still trying to develop, always slow development down to a crawl. Fact.
4. Menial labor jobs are tasks the lizard brain (medulla oblongata / brain stem) loves as they are repetition based and requires no creative energy. Fact.
5. Creating video games take an enormous amount of creativity to do, and creativity comes most naturally when you are not stressed and feel emotionally stable. Fact.

What have I missed, in my assumptions or fact-checking?

I'd reply to leeor, but this post already has taken about an hour and a half to write and I need a break.

[Hooman]

In the case of soldiers, I think discipline is even more about choice and habit rather than fear, since following orders might very well get them injured or killed. If there are bombs going off and bullets flying by, and some angry sounding guy is yelling orders, soldiers might very well follow those orders, but not because the angry sounding guy is scarier than the bombs and bullets.

Similarly, a monk's life is a choice.

I am someone who wants to be better than I am, both as a person and as a programmer, and have goals to achieve those things.

Yes, that does sound more like what I'm talking about.

Ahh, but that analogy you have there has a hidden negative fear that you failed to mention. Why do you have to go to a gym to stay healthy?

I disagree. My statement made no assumption that going to a gym is required to stay healthy. It is simply one of the ways you can take care of your body. And for many years, it wasn't my choice. I long had other ways to stay active and exercise, as part of my usual habits. Though when my environment changed, my habits changed, and I found I wasn't getting the regular exercise I used to get. I eventually made the decision to try going to a gym.

Also, if you haven't noticed I like to debate and argue a lot.

Yes, you do.

... Even if I don't necessarily want to think differently

Reminds me of me when I was younger. I always wanted to be right.

Depends on the dream and depends on the path to the dream. The path to my dream, is likely to long and hard, which is what I'm basing it off of.

If you believe this, then you are likely to make it true.

I suppose I do have control issues, but I can't see an easy or simple way to solve that.

You don't, or you don't want to?

Yes it is an assumption, but the way the world is going these days, its more likely I'll have a more ideal working experience, being an entrepreneur than not.

Then by all means, go for it. But that doesn't mean you can't be an employee on the path to get there. There are many benefits to being an employee which could greatly accelerate your path to becoming an entrepreneur.

Depression and joblessness may be related, but I do not feel jobless; I may not be making money, but I do feel "employed", doing something worthwhile, and feel like I'm accomplishing things in life. In order to take on a paid job, I'd have to sacrifice my current "jobs" that are currently satisfying me both mentally, emotionally and physically to "potentially" get something better and get paid. Now THAT sounds risky; I have sufficient funds right now to handle my needs, by living frugally, so I don't necessarily NEED a paid job at this time, anyway. So why should I sacrifice what makes me happy, for something that may give the same level of happiness and fulfillment?

Sounds like you have a lot of deeply held stories. The kind of stories that nobody ever thinks to question. Maybe you should identify and question them.

It's very easy to say you "don't need" something you don't have. But is it just an excuse to not handle an uncomfortable area of your life? For many people it is. "I don't need to be rich to be happy!" (So I'll continue to put off learning new valuable skills/asking for a raise/working on a side project/etc.).

(And TMI on the jobs satisfying you "physically")

If I got paid for a game sold, that would be a good indication that I'm doing the right thing, right? So, perhaps we should shelve the decision to look for paid work, until after we determine if GoG will stock CoC.

Sure. But there's a very good chance a first attempt won't go as smoothly as you like, with rainbows, and unicorns, and fireworks. So, what is your exit plan? Because if your only plan is to try hard, try harder, and keep trying harder never give up, you could be in trouble. Now I've noticed you've set timelines for your releases, so that's a good sign. What happens if those timelines come and go? What if you don't sell your game? What if you sell a few copies of your game, but it only amounts to a few dollars? What if you sell a bit, but it's not quite enough to live off of? What does success look like? And what's your plan if you don't reach it. If you have that down, then sure, go for it, give it a try. But if you don't have those things, there's a very real risk you'll ignore serious warning signs and keep going down a path you shouldn't be on. You want planned calculated risks, not excuses to avoid dealing with fears and uncomfortable situations.

Actually, I find the opposite to be true. When I was working a paid job, I felt completely unmotivated to do anything after work. True, I was being harassed in the workplace, and my supervisor has a personal vendetta against me and made my life a living hell, so that might have something to do about it. Actually, most paid jobs I've had, involved workplace harassment, and ruthless supervisors... might be why I don't want to get a paid job... hmmmmmmmm...

Wow. That could explain a bit. Workplace harassment is never acceptable. Your boss may very well have been an ass. Though it's curious you say most jobs have been like that. Particularly since you are the common element to those jobs. Perhaps you should consider how you might have contributed to the problem. Now I'm not saying your bosses weren't asses, nor does it excuse what they may have done, but perhaps there is some aspect of the problem within your control that you can take responsibility for.

The alternative, is to admit you are powerless, and take on a victim mentality, which may very well discourage you from making improvements in your life, lead to a downward spiral, and crushing depression.

I found school to actually be extremely draining, as I'm not a social creature at heart, and being forced in an environment where you are forced into terrible team roles, having pure theory forced down ones throat, and having teachers drone on in a monotone, I actually found school extremely exhausting.

Sounds like you're telling yourself stories about how school necessarily is.


Consider the language used in the later section of your reply. What is really driving this? Are any of these excuses? Do they contain deeply held stories that you no longer think to question? Are these statements necessarily true, and how can you know? Is there a better way to talk about any of this? How might any of this be different?

... the current situation is ideal
... the potential of good jobs, outweighs the higher probability that I'll not get a good job and end up miserable
... but you can't guarantee that
... I don't like taking gambles on things that affects my emotional wellbeing
... I have various neuroses, that likely wouldn't be desired by employers
... Observing others, observing my own industry, personal life experiences, personal neuroses/demons, long years of introspection, long years of terrible forced team cooperation with tons of inherent backstabbing, observing politics and trends in human behaviour
... the fact that I'm an introvert and not an extrovert
... when I was just part of the team, bickering, infighting, backstabbing, and politics eventually resulted  (<-- passive voice!)
... I'm happy and satisfied with my current situation
... when I'm not the leader, things crash and burn
... I often get blamed for it, despite pulling my own weight
... I don't think I can cope with the stress
... I'm tired of being harassed in the workplace
... attacked by zealous supervisors with unrealistic expectations
... All of my paid jobs, had these issues
... I could cope with the stress before, because I didn't have all the much on my plate
... I do not cope with stress too well
... and will bottle it up and explode violently later  (<-- sounds like a boundary setting issue)
... this leads to further attacks and harassment
... I feel I'm under threat while there
... under threat if I leave the place
... Its a no win situation
... I have enough funds
... I feel fulfilled
... I see no reason to torture myself

And yes, I will also agree that my observations may be flawed, and covered in confirmation bias.

I'll agree with this part.

Be careful of absolutes yourself. You are assuming that I can only be happy and successful by getting a paid job, and are refusing to consider that I might be able to achieve my goals and career plans without getting a paid job.

Yes, never use absolutes! And never say never!

And no, I don't think you have to be an employee for the rest of your life to be happy and successful. I think being an employee could be a useful stepping stone that could accelerate your success.

What needs to be challenged?
1. People do have limited creative energy. Fact.
2. Jobs demand the best of your best, lest they fire or demote you. Fact.
3. Game developers that take on full-time jobs, while still trying to develop, always slow development down to a crawl. Fact.
4. Menial labor jobs are tasks the lizard brain (medulla oblongata / brain stem) loves as they are repetition based and requires no creative energy. Fact.
5. Creating video games take an enormous amount of creativity to do, and creativity comes most naturally when you are not stressed and feel emotionally stable. Fact.

Define creative energy. How is it measured?
Does a receptionist at a quiet little company need to be the best of the best? A cashier? A programmer at WalMart?
Where is your data on [all?] game developers taking on full times jobs which shows it always slows development?

I'll leave the other two since I don't necessarily disagree, though I'm not sure I would call those "facts".


I think we're setting a record here for the thread with the longest replies, which burn out readers before they can finish reading

[lordpalandus]

OK.

Yep.

But yet, if you don't go to the gym you cannot somehow stay healthy. You say you decided to go to the gym, so that you would get regular exercise again. Why do you have to go to a gym for that? Why can you not do so at home, or take walks/runs? Perhaps you are assuming that without a gym, retaining ones health is impossible, and thus going to a gym is a requirement for staying healthy. An interesting thing to ponder...

Yep and Yep.

Unsure if sarcastic, but regardless, Yep.

Beyond a frontal lobotomy, no. I've always enjoyed leading, strategizing, planning, implementing, and helping to encourage and inspire others. I enjoy MMOs where I lead a large and successful guild, where I can help players build their potential and really enjoy the game and feel that their playing skills are desirable and feel that they belong to something greater than theirselves. In school, when we had group projects, and I lead them, our team would perform the highest compared to the other teams and group cohesion was strong. I am very much a leader, and as such, control issues do come with the role. A leader that isn't interested in control, isn't much of a leader at all. One can have control without micromanaging people, but you need to know your peoples strengths and weaknesses, and be ready to come to help them when they need it and provide them the support they need to excel. So, for me, no, getting away from control issues isn't a likely thing.

Perhaps, but remember everyone has their own path in life and what works for many, may not work for the few. Whether I belong to the few remains to be seen.

That is a wise suggestion, I'll look into said stories and figure out why I feel the way I do.

Depends on how one defines rich. With taxes, and all the various plinking costs in life, money disappears fast. Also, depends on if they view richness based on the amount of stuff you can have or the people you keep. But that's an aside.

If I had answers to all of those things, then I'd be set for life. But I don't. I do have a plan B in mind, if things don't go according to plan, financially. So there is that.

I'll have to spend some time on this one and figure it out (why I got workplace harassment). I get that you are trying to avoid saying "blaming the victim" as that's not cool, but at same time, letting myself fall into that, leads to a victim complex, where no one wins. Hmmmmm...

Perhaps I should rephrase the school one; going for my Diploma in Business Administration at the community college was great and enjoyable experience; 90% application and 10% theory. Whereas going for my Bachelors in General Business at the university was horrific and I learned practically nothing; 90% theory and 10% application. Not to say I didn't have bad College classes, but in general, things were much better at the College compared to the University.

Something to debate and postulate and experiment upon at a later date. Trying to keep myself focused so that I have the polished V8 beta ready before Christmas to send out to GOG. I have a lot of work to do, in a short time period. I'll look at this stuff in January.

Fair enough on the absolutes.

I'll get back to you on the 5 things. Likely in January!

Longest replies that burns out the writer of the replies too!

[Hooman]

But yet, if you don't go to the gym you cannot somehow stay healthy. You say you decided to go to the gym, so that you would get regular exercise again. Why do you have to go to a gym for that? Why can you not do so at home, or take walks/runs? Perhaps you are assuming that without a gym, retaining ones health is impossible, and thus going to a gym is a requirement for staying healthy.

Again, not something I stated. For over 90% of my life, I did choose something else. You might as well have asked me why you need to run or bike to stay healthy.

For me, the change was largely about environment and convenience. I moved somewhere inner city with poor opportunities for running or biking. The sidewalks were narrow, uneven, cracked and full of holes, and usually crowded with either people or obstacles. It would have been unpleasant, and largely futile trying to run there. There was also heavy chaotic traffic. Not an ideal environment for running or biking. On the other hand, there was a gym just around the corner from where I lived, with a drop-in fee that was only $1. Rather than stick to my established habits, I thought the gym seemed like a reasonable alternative that I could try out for a while. That doesn't mean I wouldn't rather be running or biking.

There were of course other options. I had a friend that went swimming regularly. There was also dancing, and martial arts classes. I probably could have found a sports team. The gym happened to be the closest and cheapest option.

I might ask, why are you so hung up on the gym idea? How much does going to a gym cost where you are? How far is it to a gym? Do you have an preconceived ideas as to the type of person that goes to a gym? Do any of those answers affect how you view going to a gym?

Perhaps I should rephrase the school one; going for my Diploma in Business Administration at the community college was great and enjoyable experience; 90% application and 10% theory. Whereas going for my Bachelors in General Business at the university was horrific and I learned practically nothing; 90% theory and 10% application. Not to say I didn't have bad College classes, but in general, things were much better at the College compared to the University.

That is very useful to know. University is not for everyone, though it is a very good default for the people who don't have an alternate plan.

And by alternate plan, I don't mean some vague dream they're not taking action on. A lot of people will claim something is not for them, just because they don't want to do it. The decision often has nothing to do with whether it would helpful or if they'd be successful at it, but rather what they're comfortable with. That's what you want to avoid. Make the choice about growth, not about comfort.

Going to a community college, as opposed to university is a valid plan. You are taking action on it, and getting results. Follow the path that makes sense and leads to growth.

Also, don't be afraid to re-evaluate later if anything has changed. You seem to believe university is not for you, but it might simply be that university is not for you right now. There are a small percentage of people that change their minds later on, if the situation calls for it. More often though, I hear of people trying university first, then moving to more focused diploma programs. Some of which return to university later to take a few electives rather than a full course of study.

[lordpalandus]

All the gyms in my area require a hefty subscription fee, with a minimum of 3 months purchased in a time. I've taken a look at three different gyms, that are within 10-15 minutes of my place and all of them have the same kind of system. I believe it costs about $250 for 3 months, so that works out to about $2.78 a day (assuming 90 days). However, I don't necessarily want to commit to $250 particularly if I don't intend to use it every day; I'd likely use the gym once a week, so that would mean that each visit would be about $20.83 each visit (assuming 12 weeks). Personally, I'd rather go to the swimming pool and exercise there, as admission there is like $6 w/ the locker fee. Also, I find that when I have visited a gym, a lot of fit people gave me dirty looks because I'm about 40lbs overweight (so not horrific land-whale but still) and it just feels like people prefer other fit / athletic types in a gym and prefer overweight people to go elsewhere. I simply didn't feel welcome there, even though you'd think that the people who need to be at a gym the most, are overweight people, but yah. I'm sure there are other gyms in the city, but I don't know if I want to visit one farther away. Also there is the situation with Dani Mathers, that simply reinforces the idea that overweight people aren't wanted there; yes she might have gotten sentenced and banned from the gym, but it does seem that ugliness isn't desired at a gym. I hope that answers the question raised.

Well, it might just be that the program I took wasn't a good fit for me, and that is why I didn't like it in University. It is plausible that a different program might work out differently. Yes it should be about growth, and not comfort. We'll see what the future holds.

[Hooman]

That explains a whole lot.

For me, being scrawny my whole life, I also felt overly self conscious during my first few trips to the gym. Felt like I didn't belong, like I was a weakling that wouldn't be able to lift anything. Had no idea how any of the equipment worked, and wondered if I was just making a fool of myself. Expected to be surrounded by the back-slapping "bro" types with bulging muscles that would judge. In practice, there were very few if any people that even remotely resembled that at any of the gyms I went to. Most people were friendly and welcoming, or just busy with their own exercises. The vast majority of people were actually of a fairly normal build. And I would guess a lot of them also felt like they didn't truly belong, and that's why many of them were so quiet and busy with their own exercises.

Of course money was usually my surface level reason for not considering a gym before. They were expensive back home. In practice, I think not knowing what I was doing, and fear of judgement also played a big role in that, I just didn't consciously realize it at the time.