Author Topic: Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"  (Read 3414 times)

Offline BlackBox

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« on: April 16, 2011, 04:43:36 PM »
It's been brought to my attention that certain members (not going to name names here) have been promoting "alternative chat rooms" / forums etc and saying they are "part of OPU." I just want to remind everyone of our stance regarding these things to make it very clear:

Creating a chat room for your friends even if the discussion is about OP2 is fine, obviously we can't prohibit that. But portraying it as an alternative to OPU or that it's part of OPU / officially sanctioned by OPU is absolutely not okay.

The reasoning behind this is simple. This is a small community and we want to keep everyone in the same place. Additionally, we pay for renting servers so we can have things like IRC (which are ad free and generally safe to use, something we cannot guarantee with outside chat services). We would prefer you bring new members to OPU as opposed to creating some alternative area for them.

If we hear of people advertising external chat services, forums, websites etc as an official component or alternative to OPU without official blessing from an admin they will be given a warning, links will be removed, etc. If it continues other actions might be taken including bans.

I hope the reasons for this are clear and understood by all.

Thanks,
BlackBox

Offline TH300

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 01:52:57 AM »
I think the same way, but I also see reasons for alternative chatrooms:

1. people may find the usage of irc too complicated and/or like the alternative chatroom better, because of its design/features/whatever. - what matters is, that they play op2.

2. people may disagree with the rules at opu or even be banned. - we can be very happy if those people continue to play op2 and do so at a place where they won't disturb opu members.

Now, if we think that having alternative chatrooms is not such a bad idea, we also have to give people a chance to find them. And thats why advertising them should be allowed, at least under the condition that its made clear that the chatroom is not part of opu.


For most computer games there are several different communities. People can chose the one which they like best. This helps a lot in preventing conflicts. There are only few op2 players, though. And I think that we should rather resolve conflicts without banning people than relying on several alternative communities. The third alternative would be to have less op2 players and thats imo the worst.

Offline evecolonycamander

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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 09:58:11 AM »
As one of the owners of such a room i will state that when we created it it was not and is not affiliated with this forum, HOWEVER, as this is the ONLY op2 site in existence at this time i know of we always direct people here for op2 needs.
Edit: untill i get told i can direct people there from this site i will no longer make it an option. though i ask now as to weather i can as people such as warwalker can not access the IRC chat due to computer issues. as of now i am searching for all the links i have given and removing them.... assuming the opu search engine can find links
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 11:27:57 AM by evecolonycamander »
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Offline Sirbomber

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 10:53:43 AM »
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Now, if we think that having alternative chatrooms is not such a bad idea, we also have to give people a chance to find them. And thats why advertising them should be allowed, at least under the condition that its made clear that the chatroom is not part of opu.
How does that even begin to make sense?  If I make something, I'm not going to say "but if you don't like it here's my competitor's number".  If people get banned it's not our responsibility to take care of them.
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Offline Venera

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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 05:46:10 PM »
I haven't seen anything outpost being advertised as an alternative to opu or part of opu.

Offline Hooman

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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 07:32:35 PM »
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How does that even begin to make sense? If I make something, I'm not going to say "but if you don't like it here's my competitor's number". If people get banned it's not our responsibility to take care of them.

I think you're missing the point. This isn't about OPU officially recognizing other places. This is about people claiming non-OPU sites are officially part of OPU, or presenting them in such a way that they are mistaken as being part of OPU.

I personally don't have a problem with people linking to some service they've setup, but I would appreciate it being very clearly marked as something they've setup, and not part of OPU. I don't want people to be mislead. Obviously this is bad if people are intentionally mislead, but I would also like to avoid people being unintentionally mislead. Remember that newcomers won't likely know what services are official, or who to trust for official answers, so you should try to be clear and don't intentionally or unintentionally over represent yourselves. Now remember, that's my personal opinion.

I'm not entirely sure what BlackBox's stance is on external links that are clearly marked as being external to OPU. I will defer to BlackBox for a decision on that matter. Obviously, don't mislead people with such links, or link to places that may harm people's computers.

Also, BlackBox is right to point out that OPU is a private service run by a few select people who donate their money and time to keep it running, and allow everyone here to access it for free and without being subject to advertisements. It would not be very polite to expect them to host links that drive traffic elsewhere, particularly to places that may have a negatitive attitude towards OPU members, staff, or even OPU itself. Also, the people running OPU are under no obligation to allow such links.
 

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 10:03:04 PM »
I was responding to TH300, Hooman, and your last paragraph basically reiterates what I said.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 10:04:05 PM by Sirbomber »
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Offline Hooman

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 01:56:37 AM »
I think you're taking things out of context.

Offline TH300

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 03:34:40 AM »
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Now, if we think that having alternative chatrooms is not such a bad idea, we also have to give people a chance to find them. And thats why advertising them should be allowed, at least under the condition that its made clear that the chatroom is not part of opu.
How does that even begin to make sense?  If I make something, I'm not going to say "but if you don't like it here's my competitor's number".  If people get banned it's not our responsibility to take care of them.
Did you learn only that: competition?

Is this place for making people play op2 or is its mere sense in itself?

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Also, BlackBox is right to point out that OPU is a private service run by a few select people who donate their money and time to keep it running, and allow everyone here to access it for free and without being subject to advertisements. It would not be very polite to expect them to host links that drive traffic elsewhere, particularly to places that may have a negatitive attitude towards OPU members, staff, or even OPU itself. Also, the people running OPU are under no obligation to allow such links.
Obligation isn't always necessary.

And it is natural that different people have different sentiments and thus will have negative attitudes towards each other. Unless those sentiments turn into offenses, I see no problem with that.

Who are you if you believe that you know the absolute and exclusive truth? [removed - I don't feel like arguing about this part. The rest of my statement remains valid] - There is no absolute truth, there are only opinions.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 09:30:41 AM by TH300 »

Offline Sirbomber

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 06:50:36 AM »
My statement was an analogy more than anything else.

I'll try to rephrase: BB pays money to keep this place going.  This is nice of him.  Some people, innocently enough, have set up these so-called "alternatives".  If people continued to promote these alternatives, more and more people may decide to use those instead of the "official" OPU forums/etc.  This means BB would be wasting his own money.  This is bad.

So yeah, this isn't "just a place to play OP2".  I mean, obviously for some people that's all it is.  But for other people it's a significant investment that takes up a lot of their time and money.  I think we should all really try to keep that in mind from now on, and respect the decisions of the guy who foots the bill for this place.



Edit by Hooman: Removed personal remarks, and references to removed off-topic material.
 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 04:08:03 AM by Hooman »
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Offline Spikerocks101

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 09:54:11 AM »
Why does everything turn into a flame war? Can't we just talk about a simple thing like "What people should do if they want their site to have an official OPU approval" with out outbursts? It's not even that big of a deal, considering since it's only been brought up once.
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Offline TH300

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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 10:15:09 AM »
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Who are you if you believe that you know the absolute and exclusive truth? Don't tell me that American schools teach you that. - There is no absolute truth, there are only opinions.
Oh, in that case, we can just disregard everything you've ever said. Your (extremely outspoken) stances on various community issues lately have been, quite frankly, ridiculous; it's almost as if you're dissenting for the sole sake of dissenting.
That is not totally wrong. Some people around here tend to see only one side of the coin. Someone has to speak for the other side. I don't say that I am telling the absolute truth. Its all just my opinion. And my opinion is also most of BlackBox's first post in this thread. You can disregard my opinion. Its not like I can force you to acknowledge it. You should, however, take into account that my opinion could be of use.

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Also, your saying of "American schools" with such a connotation is a remark of offense, and you will get banned quickly for saying things like that, not to mention political talk is not allowed outside the Debate Forum.
That was indeed unneeded and I removed it.
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Also, two plus two equals four - don't try to tell me that this is a statement of opinion and it has no truth value.
Although you will probably laugh: Yes, it is a statement of opinion. Mathematics are made up by humans and are thus subject to opinion as is anything else which is made by human. If you believe that you can prove me wrong, you should do so in the debate forum.


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My statement was an analogy more than anything else, but I forgot I who I was talking to...

I'll try to rephrase: BB pays money to keep this place going. This is nice of him. Some people, innocently enough, have set up these so-called "alternatives". If people continued to promote these alternatives, more and more people may decide to use those instead of the "official" OPU forums/etc. This means BB would be wasting his own money. This is bad.
That is your opinion. Why are you so sure that BlackBox thinks the same way?

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So yeah, this isn't "just a place to play OP2". I mean, obviously for some people that's all it is. But for other people it's a significant investment that takes up a lot of their time and money. I think we should all really try to keep that in mind from now on, and respect the decisions of the guy who foots the bill for this place.
As I see it, I am respecting BB's decision. Otherwise I would be posting links to alternative sites or asking directly for altering of the decision.



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And as an aside: TH300, since you obviously hate this place and its admins so much, why don't you leave and set up your own forum?
I don't hate this place nor any active member of it. I used to respect the whole admin team, which always acted maturely. I find that BlackBox, Hooman, Galactic and Garrett are doing a greet job. I am truly grateful for the ad-free server.

As I said: I respect people with different opinions, because I think that different opinions are natural.

I don't respect people who claim that their opinion is the only correct one.

Offline Hidiot

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2011, 12:27:57 PM »
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Also, two plus two equals four - don't try to tell me that this is a statement of opinion and it has no truth value.
Although you will probably laugh: Yes, it is a statement of opinion. Mathematics are made up by humans and are thus subject to opinion as is anything else which is made by human. If you believe that you can prove me wrong, you should do so in the debate forum.
Math only works because there is a (global) consensus on how it works. And this consensus is strengthened by the fact that math can be used to model our perceived reality.

Also, base 10 was chosen by consensus to be the base in which most elementary-ish math is done.

So, math is basically a consensus, NOT an opinion.


Now, back on the topic itself:
It is common sense that one should not affiliate themselves or their product with an establishment, unless the establishment gives them express permission to do so.
For example: Even if I were working at Microsoft, I couldn't go and make a piece of software outside of work and then promote it as a Microsoft product.

It's a fairly simple point, and I think BlackBox expressed it well enough in the first post.
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Offline Freeza-CII

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Official Stance On "alternative Chat Rooms"
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2011, 03:18:05 PM »
I do not have any problem with other chat roomsbeing link. My exception to this would be sites that are offensive of course. Saying that some thing is part of opu just because you are opu is a no.

Just because some one plays op2 really shouldnt be the all important thing here at opu. Oh look new people you dont play opu well why are you here get the f*** out.  

And to the comment about people not being able to understand how to use IRC. Its f***ing multiplayer note pad its a poor excuse to go make a chat room some where else because some one has a boner for a different service.

I believe every one should be in a centralized location instead of the fractured. and to that I have to say if you want opu to survive just use a bit of smart making.

Offline Venera

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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2011, 05:17:14 PM »
Name one site that says they are a part of outpost universe because I know of none.

Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 05:37:48 PM »
A couple corrections, it's not just myself supporting this site, it's also some other people such as Galactic and Garrett and Hooman (certainly others as well, I don't mean to diminish work others have done) who have put in both time and money to keep this place running (not only does renting servers cost money but also there's a not-insignificant time investment for attempting to combat spammers and other garbage and keeping things like IRC working (and I know that we can do better in that regard since it tends to go down a lot, I am hoping to make some changes for the better at some point).

Now for my personal opinions regarding this whole situation with "alternative communities" or whatever else you want to call them:

I have been part of this community in some form or another probably running on 11 or 12 years now. The reigns have changed hands many times but as far as I'm concerned the community is safe to be considered the de facto "official" Outpost 1/2 fan site (obviously we do not have any official blessing but I am certainly not aware of any other fan community for OP1/OP2).

Now obviously I or anyone else here can't prevent other people from setting up some kind of OP2 fansite, the internet is a free medium. However I do think from a standpoint of "progress" we have the most active community and have done a lot of interesting work involving OP2 that hasn't been duplicated anywhere else to my knowledge (such as creating a map editor for the game, reverse engineering the game to the point where we can create new missions for it and much more, fixing the network protocol flaws and many other things). I'd really hate for these things to be completely lost, or ripped off from their original creators because someone created a "splinter community."

Furthermore as stated we are a small community and I don't think creating "alternate chat rooms" or whatever else does anything good for the Outpost series which would probably be lost and forgotten in some cyber-abyss if a community like ours didn't exist. I would much prefer that people who want to play OP2 get sent our way, to increase the player base and hopefully increase interest in this game.

Finally from a technical standpoint, (and I know very well this is probably going to sound like boasting though it's not my intention) I do IT for a living as does Galactic. I obviously won't make any legal guarantees about the safety or reliability of our site (doing so would expose myself and probably others to liability) but I feel that I can make a relatively convincing argument that OPU is a safe site to use that is ad-free and fairly secure (as much as we can without making parts a paid service or asking for donations or showing ads), something that we could never provide reassurance for external sites (indeed one of these "alternate chat rooms" I was shown was a mess with ads and other garbage, this is even with an ad blocking browser extension turned on; I recall some "OPU toolbar" that was posted that contained adware/spyware components as well which is absolutely not what I think anyone would like to promote here).

I'll also add that as a web site operator (and most web site operators would feel the same way) we'd prefer not to have links where traffic is being driven away from our site, especially when it's for reasons that people come to the site in the first place (OP1/2). This would be akin to someone posting a link to bing.com on google's front page. Pages that are filled with ads are especially in consideration here, because we already prohibit using this site for backlinks to websites that are purely for advertising revenue.

If these alternate chat rooms are being set up because people are having problems connecting to IRC, please post about it on the forums or PM an admin and we might be able to figure something out to allow you to connect to IRC somehow.

Also: please keep the flaming to a minimum. Ad hominem attacks regarding american schools or whatever else was being posted are not ok.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 05:45:44 PM by BlackBox »

Offline Lord Of Pain

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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 05:52:17 PM »
Hey bb, i understand you may have heard what happened on irc, i'd like to let you and everyone else here know that im sorry, my words slipped and i was not thinking (and forgot the fine print) when i announced the unoficial website...

To clear things up, it the site i mentioned on irc claims in their fine print and i quote:

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This is an unofficial group for the game: Outpost 2

The above quote has been placed i assume at the creation of the website i mentioned in irc, and i forgot about it and as such this confusion has sprung up.

again i apolagize to the community that this thread has came into existence, if i had chosen my words more carefully it probalby would of not came into existence...  though this thread can be used as reference to created sites who actually do falsely claim to be part of opu...

Remember, it was a misunderstanding of taking my words literrally.
I hope this clears things up. Cuzz i have autistic problems with expressing my opinion.

happens so often.

EDIT: did not see bb's post above, creation of this post was nearly same time.

Also pay attention to TH300 cuzz his posts hit right on the spot for what half the active members opinions are. (Or at least mine / excluding that schooling remark)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 06:00:25 PM by Lord Of Pain »

Offline jcj94

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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2011, 06:17:24 PM »
As for my toolbar, I am sorry.  I did not know that the creator was spyware/adware.

I am now using a new (downloaded) creator, wich just builds the basic things (buttons, links and such) and gets the template directly from the Mozilla Firefox Online Template Generator.  The thing is, I need a Software Certificate to distribute it.  

So I am going to RESTART from scratch, the toolbar, using the bare template Mozilla gives, and Learning PHP.

Again, I am sorry about that whole incedent.

 

Offline Hooman

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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 04:30:06 AM »
*Topic Pruned* Things were getting too personal and off topic.

Personal note: I haven't actually spent money keeping this place running. You have the other people to thank for that.