Poll

Do you agree with hacker and lev's decion to change the map names?

Yes
2 (28.6%)
No
5 (71.4%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Author Topic: Map Names  (Read 2537 times)

Offline zigzagjoe

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Map Names
« on: May 08, 2005, 07:18:46 PM »
Do you agree with hacker and lev's decion to change the map names?

In 1.3.3 and levs ver of 1.3.2 the map names have been changed to opu_xxx.map.

Do you agree with this? It requires all dlls be changed to reflect the new names.
It also kills backward compatibilty.

I for one think it is a aweful idea, esp w/o asking the dev team first.


What the doomsayers have been saying may be coming true.   (thumbsdown)

And if you delete this poll, it proves their point even more.

(reposted due to wrong choice)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2005, 07:25:38 PM by zigzagjoe »

Offline BlackBox

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Map Names
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2005, 07:54:29 PM »
It's already been changed, we aren't going to change it back.

Backward compatibility is not an issue as we require everyone to update to the newest version.

Is it really that bad? It takes 5 seconds to change the MapName in the DLL and recompile. If it's really *THAT* hard to change it in your DLL's and recompile, then it's probably too hard to install an old version of OP2 that you can use for testing with "old map names".

The reason names are different is for uniformity. Instead of having all sorts of different names, the names all start with the same letters and are easier to use and remember.

Anyway -- arguing about something this minor is really stupid. I don't know why I bother to write something this long as only a couple people are shook up over it. It's really not that radical of a change.

Offline Hooman

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Map Names
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2005, 08:30:57 PM »
I think you misunderstand the implications of doing that. Changing map names really creates an artifical compatibility problem that doesn't need to be there. So far any DLL should work with any EXE version.

And by and large, copying a file in Windows (DLL) to a folder with a different exe version is easier than recompiling a DLL. Especially since only the person with the source can do the recompiling. Plus, they require a copy of MSVC++ to recompile, which not every player who may be interested in the level may have.


And keep in mind, not everyone may want to run our version of the exe. Like people who may be interested in using the cheats. Our original advice was to install an earlier version of the exe, but introducing these sorts of incompatibilities would kinda go against giving them that option.


Simply put, there is really nothing to be gained from changing these names. (Satisfaction of a "cleaner" looking file folder? Easier to remember names? More uniform looking names?) Changing them does however present some very real technical problems. DLLs designed to work with one set of names will not be able to find their map files for a version with the other set of names.

 

Offline Punboy

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Map Names
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2005, 09:24:24 PM »
Hooman took the words right out of my mouth.

Changes that affect compatibility should not be made on minor released. The smart thing to do is wait until a major release, such as 1.5, or better yet, 2.0, is released.

And if you DO make such changes, it would be nice to notify devs in advance to let them change and resubmit their DLLs.

And, at VERY least, keep a copy of the old map for compatilibity reasons for at least one version, to allow old DLLs to continue to work until devs can update their code.

Take it from those of us who have had experience in these things, we know what kind of problems can occur, and we know how bad they can be. Please... don't do it again.

And for christ's sake do not rename a man's DLL :-p
Help control the human population. Have your spouse spayed or neutered.

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2005, 05:32:00 AM »
About this version. Joe the credits were removed because the box had no scroll bar on the about menu. In the change log ill put a link to where they are online.

Yes sorry for not telling people before. Defo should of. Punboy if ur talking about major release and changes, this was it.

Offline zigzagjoe

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Map Names
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2005, 06:37:20 AM »
You realize, the programmers can sue you to hell and back now if they see that? Online isn't good enough. Theyhave to be Somewhere in the game itself, preferably where they were.

Who cares about a scroll bar? The credits being there is more important than having no credits. At All in the pakage.


And this is a relativly small release.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2005, 06:43:22 AM by zigzagjoe »

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2005, 07:33:56 AM »
I'd rather just have a credits.txt in the dir than having it in the about box with no scroll bar (donno why it dosent have one).

Offline zigzagjoe

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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2005, 08:14:30 AM »
If you do that, for me to accept it, there must be a button (preferably the same one as we have now) in-game to launch it. Otherwise it is just as bad.

Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2005, 01:57:18 PM »
As far as the map naming thing, I'd have to lighten up a bit, after what Hooman said. Especially since our goal should be to make people happy, and renaming stuff without prior warning isn't scoring any points with the dev team.

Since there are people who use the old versions in order to use the cheats, we need to accomodate them.

I'd say for all the maps released this far we need to leave the names alone. However from this point forward we should try to use standardized names. (Like I said, it looks cleaner). As it's not a compatibility issue for new DLLs after this update.

What I think we should do:

-- Change all the names back on the official maps. Multiple DLL's use the same map file and it's a pain in the ass.
-- Change names on our own maps, if people want to do that.
-- From now on, just use the name of the DLL as the name of the map file, or maybe just the Sierra way of naming maps.
Eg, ml6_aa.dll --> ml6_aa.map, or mp6_aa.map

What are your thoughts?

Regarding credits: We should put them in somehow. I'm sure there's people who would like to see the credits from Sierra/Dynamix.
As far as the scroll bar issue, that can be fixed by recompiling the dialog resources for the about box.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2005, 01:58:15 PM by op2hacker »

Offline Leviathan

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Map Names
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2005, 03:07:10 PM »
maps system
no point in having a mp2 because maps can be used for any number of players.
to make the small multiplayer download i just included 5 maps, these are in maps01.vol and simpley they are opu01-05
i only changed the .map names on maps outside that were outside the maps.vol
the reason i changed the dll names was to try and make it like if dynamix added maps they would of named them. its a new dll so it gets a new number.

i agree that names should be standardized. we wanted to do this at some point, so we did.

people shouldnt be using the old version imo. we can offer a exe with cheats in if they want cheats.

IF you can add the scroll bar, great.

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2005, 03:11:04 PM »
maps system
no point in having a mp2 because maps can be used for any number of players.
to make the small multiplayer download i just included 5 maps, these are in maps01.vol and simpley they are opu01-05
i only changed the .map names on maps outside that were outside the maps.vol
the reason i changed the dll names was to try and make it like if dynamix added maps they would of named them. its a new dll so it gets a new number.

i agree that names should be standardized. we wanted to do this at some point, so we did.

people shouldnt be using the old version imo. we can offer a exe with cheats in if they want cheats.

all you gotta do is acomidate for this version.

IF you can add the scroll bar for credits, great, we can add credits.

Offline zigzagjoe

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Map Names
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2005, 05:17:06 PM »
hacker: i like that idea. Pls do it.

lev: i like ur idea, but once a dll has been released, there is no changing names.
Standardized name would be nice, but we should allow a letter on the end for vareints

ex:

ml4_06.dll - BoreHole
ml4_06n.dll - Borehole-nf
mu6_06.dll - BoreHole-lr
mu6_06g.dll - BoreHole-lrgm

Offline Hooman

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Map Names
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2005, 10:00:39 PM »
Yes, I don't mind following a standardized naming convention for newly released maps/DLLs, but anything already out there has to stay as is. As for the numbering convention, if that is followed, we'd need some sort of central control so two people don't use the same number. It might also be a good idea to leave a big gap in numbers so people can easily tell when the numbering of unofficial maps starts (minus what's already been released of course).

And as for future "large" chagnes. I don't think those names should ever be changed. At most, we should just stick to rules for naming new levels from now on.


As for credits. Leave what was original there in place. If you want to add more credits for mods/additions, those are the ones that should get dumped into a credits.txt. I find it kinda offensive that credits would be changed. I don't mind marking things as a mod of the official one (new bugs are our own, etc.) but in no way should original credits be removed. If I saw that kinda s*** on anything I released, I would so be suing people's asses.

... as for the scroll bar idea. Great. Or even if not all credits are visible is OK, provided the ones that aren't visible are the ones added. The original ones MUST stay visible. I'd also suggest that the original credits come before credits for mods to the game. The mod is nothing without the original work. Remember that the credits are partly there as a sign of respect for the people who put all the work into making it. (Re)moving them is very rude.


 

Offline BlackBox

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Map Names
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2005, 02:24:55 PM »
Quote
Yes, I don't mind following a standardized naming convention for newly released maps/DLLs, but anything already out there has to stay as is. As for the numbering convention, if that is followed, we'd need some sort of central control so two people don't use the same number. It might also be a good idea to leave a big gap in numbers so people can easily tell when the numbering of unofficial maps starts (minus what's already been released of course).
I agree with the idea of having a central system to issue names to people.

Much like the creator ID system for Palm OS programmers (every application for Palm OS must have a unique 4 letter code called the Creator ID), you can pick your own and the site tells you if it is in use already.

Then you have to stick to that ID if you want to release the application. If you find that you aren't using the ID anymore, you can go on the website and do what's called "releasing" the ID, making it available again.

As far as changes from this point forward: We can't change anything that existed previously from this point forward, and doing so would just create more problems (e.g. if we changed the renamed maps back).

Though that probably wasn't the best idea, we cant rescind the changes we made (without creating more update problems), we're sorta stuck with them now.

From now on: We need a standardized map AND dll naming convention. Since a DLL name can only be 7 letters long (without creating OP2 problems), and for multiplayer maps, you have the mandatory mxx preface on the name. This leaves only 4 letters/numbers left to use.
(for practical purposes, 37 letters (being a-z, 0-9, and the underscore), thus 37^4 possible combinations. It seems like a lot but remember each DLL's name must be unique). These should probably be given out by a server or some other authority for compatibility reasons.

(Though not to say we can't rename DLLs if we *have* to in order to make them releaseable, I'd rather not do this and allow the creator to pick their own name. Like we've seen, changing names creates problems).

Offline Hooman

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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2005, 11:31:01 PM »
I see no reason why the names can't be changed back. If you thought you can change them in the first place, then they can certainly be changed back.

I can't see how anyone can trust the maps with name changes. I certainly wouldn't use them in any of my projects. (Although, it seems one of them was the map that Hooville uses. If I have to change the name, I'm changing the map as well.)

And btw, a standardized naming convention is more important for the DLLs than for the maps. I don't believe there is any character length limit on map names. Just have to have the space for them in the DLL, which isn't a problem for new ones. Heck, it'd be easier to remember what they were if you used a descriptive name for new maps in the first place rather than numbering them. A creator ID, maybe. If there was a creator ID for the maps, then you wouldn't really have any naming clashes provided the IDs were unique.

Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2005, 02:00:28 PM »
We could probably change the map names back in the next update.
(We were thinking of releasing a "maps update" with new maps and DLLs. that might be an opportunity to update the names to what they were, or something better than what they were).
Now to change them back, itd be too big of a pain in the ass (people have already downloaded 1.3.3 or some fix for it several times this week, so I don't think they want to do it again). So at the moment it'd be harder to change stuff back, we'd have to wait till another update, which would force people to download the OP2 update and thus the map names would get reverted then.

If we had some sort of proper update system they could just run the game and get the update automatically, no needing to go downloading numerous exes, zips, etc.

What do you mean not trust the map names? They're the same file just a different name. Unless you mean the maps aren't useful for new missions (which may or may not be the case).

As far as the change itself, i am in some ways for it, some ways against it. being for it: Only a few people have any disagreements with it. IMHO, its not really worth arguing about over and over.
However at the same time it was sort of a "random move" that no one was really informed of, they just kinda found it out on their own (including myself -- I was out of town when Lev did this), which isn't necessarily the best thing.

Ultimately we can't let something like this happen again in the future.

So what I'd suggest, is just changing the names back in the next update, either to their original names, OR:

We could adopt a standardized way to name maps. Though you can name the map anything really this might not be really necessary.
As far as DLLs though, the names for those probably should be managed somehow, since there's a limited filename length.

What do you think?

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2005, 03:47:23 PM »
There is no need to change back the names of the ones we have changed, more usless confusion.

As for next updates, we will do update packages, like the old reunionupdate files etc. Reason every1 had to get whole op2 this time was cuz we changed every file realy.