Plymouths Late Game Advantage

[Hawk]

Plymouth actually performs fairly well with lower intensity engagements. Most vehicles on Eden's side you wouldn't leave on their own. Stickies and ESG however, due to the nature of their weapon, have the ability to destroy, disrupt, or circumvent an incoming armored column. Due the nature of Eden's weapons, its more of macro management style. The bottom line is that *generally* the better player will spend more time issuing individual unit commands as plymouth, and more time doing general colony/producing mass units using Eden.

Some of us remember risking Eden (remember the host doing an eden check before starting just to make sure the other player was SURE?) on a 3 vs 3. Usually it was easier to just transfer the weapons to a plymouth ally, since they were already focusing on the fight and already had a good idea on to best utilize the weapon. Let Eden focus on production.

[Hawk]

Well I got to re-reading this and I realized that I posted a supporting fact of my argument, but I failed to explicitly state what I was trying to convey: It's what we call in the (US) military, METT-T. Mission, enemy, time, terrain, troops. Advantages are dependent on a number of factors, and I'll cite examples given I don't confuse this with a salute report like I originally did.

Mission. Usually combat oriented, but Eden has a distinct advantage in Space Race.
Enemy. What's your enemy doing? Granted, you can't ever be completely sure, but it's one of those skills of being able to read what they're trying to do and thusly, adapting.
Time. Obviously, Plymouth has an early advantage. After that, the other factors start carrying more weight.
Terrain. Depends on map and respective positions. Anyone have a favorite Pie Chart (the original) starting position? Many old players did based on their playing style because there were very subtle differences.
Troops.I played a high intensity, 3 vs 3, 6 hour-8 hour (hard to remember exactly how long it was), game that was non-stop combat and missle launching (I cite this particular battle often because it was one of my most memorable). 2 Edens, one of which was me, and a Plymouth vs. 3 Plymouths. Although the hours long stalemate was broken with Thors, it could have well been any weapon. They were lynx that simply avoided massed units, and were quick to evade missles. Until then, everyone was mass producing Tigers which are easy targets to missles.

In short, you make the best of the current situation. Although I was well known for rushing, I thouroughly enjoyed a long team game because it often times pushed tactical and strategic considerations. I've seen the most interesting maneuvers, ruses, and counter attacks by even the simplistic players. I've even surprised myself a few times.

It's all how you play your hand.

[Highlander]

Ultimately I think much of it boils down to the map actually.

Some maps lendsthemselves more to one or the other colonies tactics.

A few examples:

Small/Crowded maps - like Pie Chart or La Corrida.
Lots of bottlenecks and no real way of flanking the enemy.
Ideal for Tiger combat.

This makes it easy for a Eden player to wall himself in on a certain amount of space and expand from there, taking one bottleneck at a time, fortify it, then take one further step.

My guess is that the Eden player would win because the Plymouth player has no real way of stopping the advance.



Open Maps - Like Axens Home or Flood Plains
Mostly open maps with few if any defensible positions.
Tigers mostly played in Defense, Lynx on offense.

This sort of map makes things tougher for both colonies, since there is few or no safe flanks around the base. Eden will have a slight advantage defensively, since it is better at walling up than Plymouth is. Offensively things are a bit more even, but again I'd think Eden would come out on top since roaming Thor Lynx will tear through walls quite quickly and take out structures close by.
Plymouth on the other hand can use Tigers on offense, but Tigers are slow and can be flanked. And by the time a slow moving army knocks on Eden's door, they should have the necessary defense in place.
MD walking across such a map would be very difficult.

Again, I would guess the Eden player would win.. but on these maps its a more level playing field.



Open maps with defined base loactions - Like Barren Land or Fractures
Well defined and defenable base locations with open areas between them.
Tigers and Lynx will alternate on the map.

These maps can be quite Plymouth friendly, since the open ground makes MD walking hard and the map makes defense a bit more easy. The distance between colonies often makes it hard for Eden to use Tigers offensively aswell. However, it is one thing chasing Eden into a hole. It is quite another keeping them in the hole or smoking them out.

Unless someone makes a mistake or gets lucky, this can easily turn into a stalemate.

[SongBird]

Plymouth can stop the advances, if and only if they are someone who has said tactics and management to do so.

[CK9]

*cough*

I remember a game I played with against Fiologist a long while back on La Corr where he was eden and I was plym.  With just a handful of tigers (mix of rpg and emp) I managed to decimate his much larger tiger force (mix of emp and thor) at the bottleneck he was trying to take.

More than anything, it comes down to how the player plays.  He was trying to push forward, depending on the strength of the superior weapon.  I was focusing on maintaining the status-quoe long enough to get more smelters and mines up to be able to keep my production up.

[Highlander]

SongBird - Then again, even if you know how to stop a MD walk, one must assume your opponent knows how to prevent you from stopping him as well ?


CK9 - If the two of you were of equal skill, it seems you might have gotten a bit lucky ?
La Corrida doesn't have much in terms of bottlenecks and facing both superior numbers and superior weapons is not something that usually ends with survival.. B)  

[Arklon]

Plymouth can stop the advances, if and only if they are someone who has said tactics and management to do so.

The only thing Plymouth needs to do to stop MD creep is to not play on La Corrida. (MD creep would work semi-decently on Pie Chart as well, except that map heavily favors Plymouth due to the rush-friendly nature of the map anyway, so Eden is just not going to survive late enough into the game for EMP Missiles to show up unless they massively outplay their Plymouth opponent and the RNG doesn't screw them over for rare ore.)

[CK9]

CK9 - If the two of you were of equal skill, it seems you might have gotten a bit lucky ?
La Corrida doesn't have much in terms of bottlenecks and facing both superior numbers and superior weapons is not something that usually ends with survival.. B)

I'd say Fio was a superior player high.

And Ark is right about pie.  There are really only two maps that eden can do the MD crawl because they both have an AI colony between the two.  However, the second one doesn't have any form of bottlenecks.

However, I'd also say that an eden player can still win by a landslide without them if they are more familiar with the most efficient research order than the plymouth player is.

[Arklon]

However, I'd also say that an eden player can still win by a landslide without them if they are more familiar with the most efficient research order than the plymouth player is.

This is also known as "outplaying" which applies universally, and therefore says nothing about faction balance.

[Hawk]

What is the definition of being outplayed? Making zero tactical mistakes can still result in a loss. A nearly perfect strategy (which a perfect strategy doesn't exist) can still fall to 1 well-executed flare attack.
Highlander claims it all boils down to the map. CK9 said it was how the "player" plays, although he wasn't clear on who the "player" was. You, as a player, or your opponent? Then, later CK9 says that the one more familiar with research will win.

Got news for ya, guys: they all matter. Each is a variable in the end result. Some just carry heavier weight than others. Obviously, the map always matters, because it determines how quickly one can attack (distance between two colonies),  defensive positioning (choke points), and resources. The way the player plays... which one? Try a really experienced player against an intermediate but give the former a 2 bar and the latter a 3 bar. Here's one for ya, have an attack mark and the intermediate simply post scouts throughout the opponent's colony.

Mission, enemy, time, terrain, troops.

[Highlander]

In response to thread name, I try to focus on Eden VS Plymouth late game.
Meaning both have survived until mark ~500.

Eden VS Plymouth.
Superior weapons vs EMP Missiles.

And of course one has to consider players of equal skill level. Otherwise it becomes a bit pointless.

[Arklon]

Eden VS Plymouth.
Superior weapons vs EMP Missiles.

Even this claim is dubious. Thor's Hammer has that raw damage output, but ESG with decent kiting micro can be absolutely devastating, plus ESG Lynx are bar none the best harrassment units in the game. Acid Cloud is pretty good, but it's very situational as the damage output isn't great against things with more than light/medium armor, and friendly fire is an issue with it. Supernova is a devastating weapon, to the point where on an open map Plymouth can pretty much just go mass Supernova Lynx and is guaranteed to get enough of them past their enemy's defenses to snipe their CC and possibly other important structures. As far common ore-only weapons go, Eden doesn't stand a chance; RPG is superior to Rail Gun (not being able to shoot over cliffs/walls is a huge minus for Rails), and Eden doesn't have Stickyfoam.

[Highlander]

I believe much of the weapons vs weapons was discussed Here a few years back.


I'd still put my money on Acid's over ESG's, and on Eden in a non-missile fight.

Then again, we seem to have different approaches on how we play this game Arklon, so who knows.. I would enjoy a game one day if you are up for it ?
(Not that a match would likely solve anything, but would be fun to try and to get a game played   )

[CK9]

The main advantage I see to acid over ESG:
ESG causes an auto-retaliation, Acid does not.  Therefore, a single acid cloud lynx attacking defensive units while a focus-grabbing main battle is going on can give the eden player an opening.

As to RPG vs Railgun, I could have sworn arklon used to say railgun was the better weapon due to the higher damage it can do...or was is bomber who argued that?

 

[Flashy]

"auto-retaliation"? What are you speaking about? I can't think of anything. Isn't a problem about acid that it can damage friendlies aswell?

Also, I'd say that while RPG outdamages Railguns in medium to long battles, it does generate a little higher first strike damage. Maybe you can use that for a hit-and-run tactic, would involve a lot of micromanagement skill though.

[Highlander]

The main advantage I see to acid over ESG:
ESG causes an auto-retaliation, Acid does not.  Therefore, a single acid cloud lynx attacking defensive units while a focus-grabbing main battle is going on can give the eden player an opening.

I'd still maintain that Acids main strength over ESG is that it does about double the damage compared to ESG. (Goes for all chassis)

"auto-retaliation"? What are you speaking about? I can't think of anything. Isn't a problem about acid that it can damage friendlies aswell?

Auto retal is what happens with most other weapons. When you shoot at say a lynx, the lynx and other nearby units will automatically attack you in return.
Acid doesn't have this effect, at least not when you only aim for area damage (Shooting next to your target), so you can leave a unit to do area damage like this until the other unit dies.
Other weapons will have the enemy unit attack you so you have to fall back. With ESG and Sticky etc this can be quite an advantage since you will do more damage to the units or spread out the enemy army so that it's easier to take them out.

Also, I'd say that while RPG outdamages Railguns in medium to long battles, it does generate a little higher first strike damage. Maybe you can use that for a hit-and-run tactic, would involve a lot of micromanagement skill though

Well, it's been established that RPG is stronger than Rail gun in pure damage. RPG also is a bit useful since it does not require a direct line of sight. So RPG is the better weapon.

My earlier findings got me this:

Setting fully upgrades weapons against each other 10 times each, here is the results:
Tiger: Mutual destruction: (3/10), RPG Wins: (7:10), with the average RPG tiger surviving with 66 HP
Lynx: Railgun wins: (3/10), Mutual Destruction: (2/10), RPG wins (5/10), with the average RPG lynx surviving with 37 HP.
Damage seems to variate due to where the projectiles hit.

So in roughly 50-70% of the engagements, the RPG unit will win and survive with with 12-13% of it's health. It's not a bigger a difference than that if Eden has a few more units in it's army it can have a fighting chance.


Anyways, this thread seems to focus on late game, where it probably is more accurate to compare RPG vs Thor.



 

[Arklon]

I'd still maintain that Acids main strength over ESG is that it does about double the damage compared to ESG. (Goes for all chassis)

I'd still maintain that Acids main strength over ESG is that it does about double the damage compared to ESG. (Goes for all chassis)

Only if you try to use ESG as a straight AoE weapon, which it does poorly at compared to Acid. However if you use ESG to kite and cause the foremost enemy vehicles to be driving over the mines rather than splitting the mine damage between their whole army, it way outperforms Acid.

Auto retal is what happens with most other weapons. When you shoot at say a lynx, the lynx and other nearby units will automatically attack you in return.
Acid doesn't have this effect, at least not when you only aim for area damage (Shooting next to your target), so you can leave a unit to do area damage like this until the other unit dies.

They will still automatically shoot at enemy units that come into range, including scouts that run into your army to cause friendly fire.

Well, it's been established that RPG is stronger than Rail gun in pure damage. RPG also is a bit useful since it does not require a direct line of sight. So RPG is the better weapon.

Is this with or without the Rail damage tech or the Supernova tech researched? The Supernova tech actually increases RPG damage:

Code: [Select]

BEGIN_TECH "High-Powered Explosives" 08203
    CATEGORY        7
    DESCRIPTION     "The Supernova weapon is now available.  RPG damage increased. _______________________________________ A new explosive material, pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN), has been developed.  PETN is about 60 percent more powerful than the material used in our Starflare weapons.  Our RPG weapons systems have been upgraded to use PETN."
    TEASER          "Makes the Supernova weapon available.  _______________________________________ The proven effectiveness of the Starflare weapon has led our scientists to propose a more powerful version.  We have several formulas for chemical explosives more powerful than trinitrotoluene, but testing is required to determine which is most suitable for use as a reliable weapon."
    IMPROVE_DESC    "Increased damage"
    REQUIRES        05602
    REQUIRES        07102
    EDEN_COST       -1
    PLYMOUTH_COST   1500
    MAX_SCIENTISTS  12
    LAB             2
    UNIT_PROP CANNON Concussion_Damage 100
    UNIT_PROP CANNON Penetration_Damage 45
END_TECH

Anyways, this thread seems to focus on late game, where it probably is more accurate to compare RPG vs Thor.

Why would you compare a common-only weapon to one that requires rare? Plymouth's main DPS late game comes from ESG, RPG is for relatively cheap additional DPS that isn't micro-intensive like ESG is.

[Highlander]

Only if you try to use ESG as a straight AoE weapon, which it does poorly at compared to Acid. However if you use ESG to kite and cause the foremost enemy vehicles to be driving over the mines rather than splitting the mine damage between their whole army, it way outperforms Acid.

I agree with you here Arklon. ESG works great that way. Better than Acid since ESG has an area of effect 1 square larger than Acid and also because it is easier to visualize/work with and mines stay on the ground for a longer period compared to Acid's Cloud.

But this is a defensive tactic. If you want to avoid the two armies clashing, you need space to withdraw. Sooner or later your army ends up on ground you cannot readily give up to the enemy.
That ground can be a chokepoint, a mining location or your mainbase.

If you flip the situation around and assume Plymouth is the aggressor then sooner or later you will have to attack into a defensive position and then you will feel the effect of Acid's double strength.
Even more so if the Eden player has set up a defensive position with walls and GP's for backup.
And I know you said previously you don't think much of GP's, but from my point of view they really enhance Eden defensive capabilities.

As I see it they work better for Eden defensive wise and Eden is much better at slicing through stationary Plymouth defenses.

Is this with or without the Rail damage tech or the Supernova tech researched?
Why would you compare a common-only weapon to one that requires rare? Plymouth's main DPS late game comes from ESG, RPG is for relatively cheap additional DPS that isn't micro-intensive like ESG is.

Yes, my test was done with both weapons fully upgraded. That includes Supernova research for RPG and Heat Dissipating Systems for Rail.

The reason I chose to compare RPG vs Thors, is that this threads intention was to talk about late game. And in late games you are more likely to be using RPG/EMP/ESG vs EMP/Acid/Thor.
And Tigers would mostly be the main units rather than Lynx so rare cost would be present most likely.



Anyways, like I mentioned a couple of posts back - we both seem to have our opinions on these matters. I think a game (or more) could be interesting to see the others way of playing. Perhaps we'd both learn something from it  B)  

[Flashy]

"auto-retaliation"? What are you speaking about? I can't think of anything. Isn't a problem about acid that it can damage friendlies aswell?

Auto retal is what happens with most other weapons. When you shoot at say a lynx, the lynx and other nearby units will automatically attack you in return.

Well, thanks for that, I never thought about that, I always kind of just accepted that happening