Population Size

[lordpalandus]

Anyone ever wonder how you could keep a colony running with 200 or less people in it? Or the fact that there wouldn't be enough genetic material? Eden lost their Gene Bank, so whered the get the genes to breed anything less than clones?

Or even the biggest shocker; how is it that a mega, super-large spaceship, can only hold 200 people plus 50-100 children from another colony? Like, a sea-based battleship could carry more people on it, and I doubt a battleship was as big as the colony ships in Outpost 2.

Thoughts?

[jcj94]

Food.  Materials.

You need space to do things in.

You need space for the computers on the spaceship.

You need AIR don't you?

There has to be rooms to sleep in....


Wow, you really didn't think about food storage, (especially perishables and the like), and how they probably won't be able to restock anywhere (lest you guys know of an interstellar food shop other than "Spacey's"(obscure reference time)), and there is also the whole: Stasis Systems, Food Storage, Computers (for tracking, researching, and the like), Water Storage, Waste storage/ ejection systems, Some storage for fabricated materials, and or raw materials (in case there aren't any good ore deposits or the ore is useless).

There is a LOT of space needed for a voyage of that size and mass.  And wasn't there something in OP1 where the colonists decided to bring two of everything, thinking that a split colony had a better chance?

On a battleship, half of the crew is asleep in bunks, while the other half is running.  Half eat and such, so you need half the normal space requirements to do what a battleship can do that a spaceship can't afford (ALL of the people on the Conestaga were asleep, so there had to be some form of nutrient creation/supplementation and the like.)

[Hooman]

I had kind of wondered about this actually.

I'm not sure the genetic diversity argument holds much weight though. There are very small islands with no real outside contact that have maintained populations for a very long time. There is little variation in the physical features of the inhabitants. Apparently they make for interesting genetic studies. Also, how do we exist? Whether you believe in a creator, or you believe in evolution, either theory seems to suggest life as we know it came from a rather small genetic pool. It seems very unlikely that life would be spontaneously created in many different interbreeding forms all at the same time.

I imagine 200 people could create a self sustaining colony. I'm not sure what population size is typical for isolated and independent islands, though if you read up on Pitcairn Island, it currently has about 50 people among 4 families. It seems to have been founded by less than 30 people, and had a max population of over 200, but most have emmigrated elsewhere.

For comparison, I hear aircraft carriers have a population of about 5000.


So yeah, I don't think a gene pool is strictly necessary for 200 people. It probably just seemed like a good idea.

As for supplies, a spaceship must travel much further and for much longer than a sea vessel, with no chance of getting resupplied. At best, they could harvest stuff along the way. However, if they're travelling through deep space, there probably won't be too much to harvest. Plus, getting all the supplies into orbit if a much more difficult and expensive task. I would imagine crew sizes would be much smaller. I have no idea how big the physical dimensions of the Outpost starships is, but a population of 200 seems pretty massive compared to typical space going vessels today.

I would guess such a spaceship might very well be smaller than a battleship. I would also guess a lot of the space was taken up by fuel to make such a long voyage. I doubt computers would take up much space. I doubt sleeping quarters would be that much of an issue. Most of the crew would be asleep the whole journey, and they'd probably be packed in fairly tight. Not many people were awake on the ship, or for very long, so you'd need minimal space for working/eating and the like. The majority of the population space would likely be taken up in stasis chambers. It may be a reasonably significant part of the ship, but it's not going to be all that big. Also consider that the space taken up by an individual doesn't change if they are working or sleeping. That space needs to be somewhere, and if they are sleeping, you don't need additional space for the other things people do.

One of the points of hiberation is to reduce food and oxygen demand. I suppose if the systems really could manage suspended animation in the most thorough sense, food and oxygen demand should drop to zero. Particularly if aging is to be halted. Things like oxygen and nutrients should be in minimal demand for the duration of the flight, but a good store probably needs to be kept to support people when they land and are woken up. Afterall, you don't know what kind of environment you'll find at the end up such a long trip into the unknown.

 

[Zardox Xheonov]

...and they had to bulldoze 12 cities for somthing smaller than a battlecruizer? doubt it... Where did all those materials go? where they used in the starship it's self? how did they use the 12 cities each one the SIZE OF LOS ANGELLUS... Other than the size of the starship, yeah i agree with hooman on everything else. I belive a starship with 12 cities in it should have at least 1000... way more.

The numbers don't lie.
Then again, we would need to 'truly' know how big the starship was... we can only assume at this point based on the 12 cities they dozed down to make the thing.
(Until sombody proves this wrong).
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On the other note, like hooman stated, the starship probably  needed storage... that storage could of been not raw ore, no... but materials allready manufactured and ready to be put in peice (like a puzzle if you will) to create a colony of habitable space structures and some vehicles... That alone could take up alot of space... But we may really never know for sure.

And if they truly wanted to servive, they probably would of had a built in agridome incase they're planet had no life.... >_>
Another reason for a built in agridome would be to insure life in genneral would not cease to exist...
Also could make a resupplable source of natural water/food/oxygen (things for life) all created by the built in agridome.

For all we know it might be called somthing else; habitat ring perchance?

Lets also take into account the time it took to rush the starship (how long again?).
To be able to save more poeple, they probably needed more time. Which they had not(?) Which they did have(?) (Please correct one).
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One way or another, the story behind outpost2 specifys little more than to let us assume our conclusions (making them rather a guessing game than fact unless stated otherwise by the novella and/or game).

So it can be debated either way;

-It should of had more people.

       (or)

-It could not of had more people.

[Hooman]

Hmm, good point about the cities that got bulldozed. I had forgotten about that.

Still, not all the material might have been used in the starship itself. Some of it could have been used for the launch pad and ground support. Other materials might have been used in orbit to support the ship construction, but were not actually part of the ship. Also, they might only have harvested certain materials from those cities. Would concrete or steel be all that useful in a spaceship? That material is a bit heavy, and hard to get into orbit. But, I'm sure the comment was probably meant to imply the ship was quite large.
 

[Sirbomber]

...and they had to bulldoze 12 cities for somthing smaller than a battlecruizer?

Are you maybe referring to this?

Yeah, that was an old joke image.  Regardless, I don't know why anyone in their right mind would think you'd bulldoze a city to get starship materials.  Large buildings you'd find in a city are mostly composed of concrete, glass, and steel.  Concrete and glass have no place on an interstellar starship, and steel is just too heavy.

EDIT (leeor_net): fixing broken image link

[Arklon]

Regardless, I don't know why anyone in their right mind would think you'd bulldoze a city to get starship materials.  Large buildings you'd find in a city are mostly composed of concrete, glass, and steel.  Concrete and glass have no place on an interstellar starship, and steel is just too heavy.

You simply convert them into useful materials with SCIENCE!

[Zardox Xheonov]

How far into the future would this take place? 100 years? 200years?

If in any case the city was in the distant future, then perhaps, just maybe, the city architecture was different than today's steel/concrete/glass... We can only assume they used the most recent cities which would perhaps have modified exteriors/interiors (like layers), though i doubt this idea is anygood, its only a guess as to why they would need any city material... probably the case is they did not have all that many buildings with new architecture... but still had roughly enough to build a starship out of the correct materials...

Thats if we want to look at it realistically, becuase we allknow concrete glass and steel cant be used for space... has to be lighter metals for insolation and other materials for other uses...

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So yeah i agree with what sirbomber said about what materials can be used... and what can't be used.

But regardless of the logic, the game designers put it in op1(?) (correct me) that they did use 12 cities to build the conestoga.... and the details behind it are very vague... Whats done is done we cannot change it (unless we want to ruin the novella which i know nobody wants to change that )

As of why they made it 12 cities, i just don't know. I guess they werent thinking about the logic behind it.. Does anyone see any other way of using 12 cities becuase me and sirbomber sure don't

[Hooman]

Hmm. Price check on starships. How many cities do they cost? The picture says 19, and LOP is saying 12.
 

[jcj94]

I don't know...


What was the approximate size?  X*the-size-of-the-ISS?  
If so, I don't think you'd even need to bulldoze cities.

Then again, if Vulcan's hammer hit, and people survived, you'd need materials as well. (suggesting maybe not ALL of it was used for the starship itself.  Maybe an underground bunker attempt?)

[Savant_Ace]

In the end there are several plot holes between OP1 and OP2 and even within OP2 itself. I think that half the enjoyment of the game's story and one of the better aspects of it is that you yourself get to choose in your mind what happened to lead one to the other, or reject both entirely. The expirience is different for everyone, and as a result there is no such canon of consistancy.


But for what its worth, I think any of the purposed design flaws with the end ot the OP2 game can be attributed to a few simple things: First they had to birth, raise, and execute this idea all on the run, so all aspects of the human element were a result of stress and constant fatiuge. Second we're talking about an interstellar voyage at sub-light speeds here. The sheer amount of time it would take to traverse the distance even at the fastest known sub-light speeds would take ball park of hundreds of years, if not much much more, so the amount of life support storage required would be quite substantial. I realize that they have stasis systems, but the fact is that even in stasis, some form of preservation would be necessary, be it power, oxygen, or otherwise. The campaign itself is geared towards having a population right around 200ish by the launch mission, so that through assumption, you can figure only the meak and the un-needed were deemed unfit to leave the planet.

The rest, friends, is left to ones imagination. One who lacks such may see this as a flaw, but to me this is one of the benefits of the story; it paints a picture, but before it finishes, it hands you the brush so that you may fill in the edges as you like. Just enough to make the story your own, just enough to make the expirience unique.

Perhaps I'm just delusional.