Patch: Laser Weapon

[lordpalandus]

Laser Weapon for Eden for Patch.

[TH300]

And what about lower build costs, shorter construction time, rate of fire, giving Eden other means to counter micro+sticky?

Is the Laser really too underpowered as it is?

How can anyone decide on this without a huge amount of knowledge about op2 balancing. How are people supposed to reasonably vote?

Lets discuss this and then restart the poll.

[lordpalandus]

It was a simple observation on my part. Without heat dissapation the laser has a slower firing speed than the microwave. The microwave deals more damage even without the damage research. Both the laser and the microwave have the same range, build time, and build cost.  

[TH300]

This means that Eden will loose if it uses the same strategy as Plymouth. Maybe Eden can use another strategy to counter the micro-lynx threat. Eden cannot rush with lasers. But maybe it can at least defend against micro rushes with the right strategy.

My feeling is that Eden has a disadvantage with the laser. But thats just a feeling. And I'd rather balance it with other means than making the laser equal to the microwave.

[lordpalandus]

Well.. when the laser gets heat dissapation at the higher tech level tree, the laser will outclass the microwave.

The laser has a much higher ROF when it gets heat dissapation which makes up for its lower light armor damage. A Laser Tiger vs A Microwave Tiger, the laser one will win if it has Heat Dissapation.

Its just that to get there requires a whole lot longer than it takes for Plymouth.

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So ya, early on Eden is at a disadvantage. Later on its laser gets a massive boost.

Though in a multiplayer game against a Human opponent, you will most likely not last long enough to get to that advantage.

My suggestion is to balance out the laser by doing one of the things of the poll + reducing the ROF boost the laser gets later on.

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A strategy that is expensive but possible, to use against an early plymouth attack is Scout Bombers. By this I mean drive up to a vehicle and hit self-destruct. The scout is by far the cheapest and fastest unit early game, coupled with a wall of laser turrets may allow an eden player some time to survive. Maybe.


posts merged by TH300. Please use the edit button next time.

[Freeza-CII]

I wouldnt mess with the laser weapon as it is. Such as range and damage. Because if you have used a laser tiger there pretty nice. So your best bet would be change the build cost. how ever i think this takes away the challenge of using eden.  

[lordpalandus]

An alternative solution is to grant a higher weapon power bonus to Guardposts when linked to command center by tubes.

[Hooman]

I think this question needs to be simplified before being posted as a poll. Clearly there is a desire from many people to address balance issues, but there appears to be a lack of consent on how, and this poll seems to have too many options to succeed with a clear outcome. I doubt something actionable can be decided unless the question is simplified first. I believe more discussion will be needed to arrive at that point.


One idea I'd like to throw out there, is perhaps an advantage given to guard posts, possibly Eden specific, which might help counter rushing tactics. Perhaps a laser turret mounted on a guard post could have some specific advantage? Perhaps this advantage could be limited to only work against early game units? I'm going to arbitrarily suggest increasing the range of guard post mounted laser weapons to one greater than un-upgraded sticky foam, so you can't splash damage kill the Guard Post without taking damage.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas out there though.
 

[lordpalandus]

Suicide Scouts anyone?

[Highlander]

The laser has a much higher ROF when it gets heat dissapation which makes up for its lower light armor damage. A Laser Tiger vs A Microwave Tiger, the laser one will win if it has Heat Dissapation.
 

Nope. Micro is still faster. Try two tigers against eachother and you'll see the micro win.


One idea would be to increase laser range by 1 intially. That way laser could get in 1 early shot on the microwave - possibly fallback and fire on advancing micro's.
The later when you research heat dissipating systems, you could take away the initial range bonus, so that lasers trade range for rate of fire when the research is complete.

[CK9]

Technically, the range of a laser is infinite...but for practical purposes I would agree with highlander's idea

[lordpalandus]

True a laser can have an infinite range, but it appears to have diminishing returns the farther out it goes (at least in reality it appears to)  

[Lugia3]

Light decreases in intensity the farther it travels, therefore laser damage should be dependent on range.

At point blank the laser should do more damage then an upgraded micro, and lose some power for each tile that the target is away from the turret.

[TH300]

And something similar isn't true for microwaves?

I believe that the decrease of damage over range is already taken into consideration. Its the reason why those weapons don't have unlimited range. They simply have the range within which firepower is (almost) maximal.

[Freeza-CII]

the microwave is the same as a laser they call them masers tho.

Light amplifed by stimulated emitions of radiation
microwave amplified by stimulated emitions of radiation.

its just using a different wavelength so you could have a xray laser or a ir laser or a uv laser.

I think increasing its rate of fire is a better option. not much but it would make it easier on a eden player. and when they get the upgrade heat dissapation it would be even faster. also remember heat dissapation modifies thors hammer as well so you would have to becareful with that one. unless its able to mod the different units separately. lets say we make the stock 1/4 faster then the stock microwave. so 1.25 and 1. heat dissapation doubles it. so 2.50 and 2.  this make a better balance in dealing with the penetrations damage vs concussive damage.  

[TH300]

Laser has
Concussion Damage: 0
Penetration Damage: 35 (45 improved)
Reload Time: 35 (22)

Microwave has
Concussion Damage: 20 (30)
Penetration Damage: 20 (30)
Reload Time: 30 (20)

That means the rate of fire of the laser is currently slightly slower than that of the microwave. Also, the microwave will deal more damage per shot against lightly armored units, because the sum of both damage values is higher.

It is possible to change the upgraded values separately by editing the tech trees (the research assigns new absolute values - there is no multiplication factor). So, we could indeed increase the laser's initial rate of fire and leave the upgraded value unaltered (i.e. change the initial reload time to maybe 27 and keep the upgraded reload time 22).

[Freeza-CII]

interesting that its slower then the microwave to.

I do believe the rof (rate of fire) increase is the way to go. and it could be tested right away with some tech tree modification.

[Zardox Xheonov]

so i'm guessing you guys will take action and do a 1v1 to test it out? or bleh that might take too long idk just get in there and do something!

i say make a backup text file and play around with the different options for a good linx until you get a good solution and make sure you test in multiple scenarios not just 1 mic linx vs 1 las linx cuzz we need results.

and lets not forget we have to mention and count every unit on plymouths side that tops a similar eden unit and vice versa such as acid vs esg, rpg vs rail, and the fact that plymouth has a bigger variety of combat vehicles too. like sticky & supernova & scorpion and is there really anything that counters a spider? is it edens repair vehicle? not quite as good in terms of special ability.

welp good luck.