Windows Vista

[Savant 231-A]

Seeing that SP1 is going to make vista even more cra... worse I wanna hear your voice!

[Hidiot]

They should just make a damn fully working operating system already... and then add all the gadgets to it.  

[Savant 231-A]

I think the following. Microsoft makes crappy items, and than they use SP's to repair them. However Microsoft failed this time. Crappy Vista + bad SP's = Disaster.

[Fenrisul]

Someone delete this thread;  seeing the word V**** infuriates me.

[Savant 231-A]

Someone delete this thread;  seeing the word V**** infuriates me.

 :lol:  

[Sirbomber]

Yes, because Windows makes it and they will impose it on everyone. :evil laugh:

Honestly though, all this anti-Vista stuff is starting to get old.  If you don't like it, switch to another OS (which was probably just as buggy when it first came out).
Give them a chance to fix the problems before you all bash it to death.

[BlackBox]

Same thing happened with Windows XP...

And yeah, if you hate Windows so much, I wonder why you're still using it. As there -are- actually viable alternatives to Windows...

[Arklon]

Same thing happened with Windows XP...

Yeah, I remember that, too. Hardly anybody seems to remember it, though.

[Fenrisul]

It has far less to do with V**** being a "Bad" OS currently, as it does with what it stands for;  which is the proprietization of mediums especially in the form of hardware support.  One instance in specific regarding the business deals between Intel and M$.  All 'new' Intel chipsets discontinued support for OpenGL *specifically* until they can support DirectX10 properly.  V**** and OpenGL coders don't get along, hell most coders in general don't get along with V**** if they're writing anything more complex than a batch processing app, or a variant on Notepad.  Want access to *ANY* media element of V**** such as the HD-DVD or Blu-ray hardware?  Can't do it; and *definately* can't do it unless you utilize XShow (which is really just a subset now anyway) as DirectShow, DirectPlay, DirectInput, Direct3D, and DirectDraw have now been totally dropped to make V**** and XBox more compatible.  Is this a step in the right direction for unification?  Yes.  Is this a step in the wrong f***in direction for *ANYONE WHO WANTS TO DEVELOP A MEDIA APP WITHOUT USING AN OBNOXIOUS API LIKE "X"*,  Yes!  Its a *Horrible* stumble straight back to the stone-age of intellisense.

Additionally...  If you own an Intel board that supports HD-DVD decoding and you put V**** on it, you have full access to that hardware.  If you put *ANY* other OS on there, including any of the Mac OS's, that access is immediately denied *strictly* because of a business deal between Intel and M$ in the form of licensing.  So right now, it has far less to do with the OS itself, but rather the fundamentally backwards development of desktop computing by the major manufacturers pandering to a software developer super-company like M$.

{Edit 2.0}
I dev on Linux quite a bit.  I want access to HD-DVD hardware but am denied it because of a business arrangement.  This is the first time in PC history that mainboard hardware has been proprietized to such an extent that it becomes prohibitive to software developers.  Audio support is starting to go the same way.  Basically though V**** is bad for more than just the fact that its a s***ty OS;  its bad because of how its transforming the hardware market.  Machines are coming out in which Linux flavors will not run on due to intentionally prohibitive hardware.

[BlackBox]

{Edit 2.0}
I dev on Linux quite a bit.  I want access to HD-DVD hardware but am denied it because of a business arrangement.  This is the first time in PC history that mainboard hardware has been proprietized to such an extent that it becomes prohibitive to software developers.  Audio support is starting to go the same way.  Basically though V**** is bad for more than just the fact that its a s***ty OS;  its bad because of how its transforming the hardware market.  Machines are coming out in which Linux flavors will not run on due to intentionally prohibitive hardware.

Without trying to turn this into a flame war...

apparently you don't remember that the same exact thing happened when DVD's came out? You needed a license from the DVD-CCA to be able to decrypt CSS from the disks. (Technically, to get a player key which would let you decrypt the data). Time passed, and DeCSS was written (used a leaked player key to decrypt the data).

And the business arrangement has nothing to do with Vista in the HD-DVD / BD case.. similar sort of protection system (AACS), keys to decrypt the data licensed (by AACS LA), algorithm weak and easily cracked (google "09 f9" if you have no idea what I'm referring to). Intel also has nothing to do with it, they don't even manufacture the players. Of course, similar software will show up, I'm sure (libaacs anyone? Just like libdvdcss is today)

Of course, it doesn't help that MS is cozy with a lot of these companies and DRM schemes but you cannot solely blame them for this sort of thing happening. Blame the greedy music and film industries.

And proprietary APIs? As far as I know, the only way for a user-space application to directly access things like the hardware framebuffer in Windows (needed for any sort of high performance graphics rendering, whether it be 3D, or video frame output {to an overlay, if it's in YUV format}) is via the DirectX APIs (and OpenGL, to an extent). This has been the case since any Windows NT based system (and 9x/Me, if you wanted any sort of standard way to access any device -- I say this because it is possible to write directly to kernel land memory in 9x if you really want to, any program can install a VXD for that). (the other option is Video for Windows, which is painfully slow in comparison).

I also believe the API you are referring to is DirectShow (not XShow).

Vista also supports OpenGL fully. I also find it extremely hard to believe that Intel would simply stop supporting OpenGL in their graphics hardware (you would break a lot of applications, and if the hardware doesn't support OpenGL at all, it wouldn't work in older OSes like Windows XP either).

Likewise, more standard API's keep popping up (such as OpenAL for sound) so you can't argue that you are forced to use the sound support of the OS (which I will say, it was a mistake for them to remove the DirectSound HAL in Vista... because of that certain things like EAX don't work, and if a program doesn't use OpenAL, you're out of luck).

Intel is also not responsible for HD-DVD decoding. That is the drive's and the software's responsibility (Intel manufactures neither of these things). The only thing the video hardware needs to support is HDCP, which would be the only place where they are any bit responsible (and don't tell me that there isn't some backdoor / firmware patch for the drive that allows it to send unencrypted data to the rest of the system. Just as there aren't any hacks to disable region coding on DVD drives ;-))

Anyway, I suggest you do a little more research on this topic. No bad feelings intended.

[Freeza-CII]

Most people that object to Vista so loudly are either Mac lovers or linux pros.

You really need to use the system.  I dont have any problems with vista on my laptop.  Things are in different spots but if you take a few minutes to locate every thing your pretty much set.

[omagaalpha]

It his always when new windows come is all those who don't have windows OS complained loud in hope it will kill it or something.

Second those who argue are who complained loudly likely to cause flame war over it. If does happen likely still cause circle of try defend each side.

Side note don't have any problem vista so to me all say is false. Also Fenrisul if windows did not exist then be Mac or some other OS transformed the standard market to there favor. Yes contribute to circle but had say piece mind on this subject.

[Fenrisul]

"Not supporting OpenGL"

Lemme elaborate on that a bit...

As of the X31 chipsets, OpenGL2.0 was removed specifically until they can support DirectX10, and instead OpenGL1.5 was gimped which basically makes it OpenGL1 compliant.  Intel has openly committed to supporting OpenGL2.0 and loosely to OGL2.1, however they have also stated that they simply wont bother until DX10 is properly integrated.  I had the oppertunity to go to the IDF in SF last fall and spoke directly to their engineers about this; when it was spoken about in a chalk-talk (I wasn't present) it damn near started a geek-riot.

As for HD-DVD and Blu-ray media support;  Intel's chipsets (which btw, are manufactured by Intel; excuse the harsh tone here) were specifically engineered to allow no access other than that of V****;  this doesn't include other players keys, this was a specific-to-OS deal and was directly subsidized by Intel.  I also spoke to several engineers about this.

Also,  yes, it will eventually be broken, but in terms of the difference between DVD and what is now HD-DVD, Intel had a much larger role in the proprietization from the ground up.  That is the part that concerns me;  the part where an OS so directly effects hardware manufacturing flexibility.  Even before DeCSS, DVD-ROM drives were unicompliant from day 1; although the data (such as MPEG-2) for video was not, as it wasn't actually part of the hardware.  With HD and Blu-ray, the decoder is actually on-board (3rd party) and in some cases (X-31 and up) is on-chip.

I also believe the API you are referring to is DirectShow (not XShow).

Eh - they left one of them intact, i think it might be DirectShow, but the rest of them are all fubar'd.  I simply don't care anymore; the day they said they were ousting DirectPlay and DirectInput I said f*** it.

[greytrains]

I always wait six months to a year before I get a new OS.  If I even need one.  Considering the fact that I have a system that still uses Win 2000, I don't see myself changing anytime soon.

[Sirbomber]

Oh, stop censoring Vista; you just look like a fool.

VISTA!!!![/b]

[BlackBox]

As for HD-DVD and Blu-ray media support;  Intel's chipsets (which btw, are manufactured by Intel; excuse the harsh tone here) were specifically engineered to allow no access other than that of V****;  this doesn't include other players keys, this was a specific-to-OS deal and was directly subsidized by Intel.  I also spoke to several engineers about this.

Could you post your references? I see no reference anywhere to Intel chipsets having anything to do with HD-DVD (other than Intel producing chipsets for set-top players, I am instead interested in PC drives that are HD-DVD / BD capable.

Which also leads me to believe this is completely false for another reason: if you didn't have an intel chipset on your motherboard (assuming this was true) you would not able to install and use an HD-DVD / BD player at all. Which is certainly not the case. Now I can see Intel requiring the use of Vista for HDCP to work on their graphics chipsets (though I am not aware of Intel graphics chipsets ever supporting HDCP). In any case, most people who are knowledgeable about their PC, or avid PC gamers are not going to be using an integrated chipset (from Intel or any other chip maker). They are going to be using a dedicated card. I would also not be surprised if only the Windows drivers allow HDCP output (this is typical with hardware manufacturers, where the Linux drivers have fewer features than the Windows drivers, and is not an Intel-only phenomenon).

Finally, every type of optical drive (that I know of) in a PC, including HD DVD / BD drives, does not need special drivers. This goes for both SATA and IDE drives. (In the case of SATA, installing the drivers for the SATA controller is sufficient). The operating just communicates with the drive (like it does any other drive) using the ATA command set to initialize the disk, read/write sectors, etc. Which means that the only weak link left is the player and the operating system. Of course, in order to "legally" implement AACS, you have to support all kinds of stupid things like encryption up to the display device (HDCP output) as far as I am aware but there is plenty of evidence that shows that playing HD-DVD's with open source software is completely possible:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Restricte.../BluRayAndHDDVD

The requirement of HDCP is a completely software imposed sanction. The software is designed to pass encrypted data up through the OS HAL (in turn, out to the video card) which passes the encrypted signal out to the display devices. But there is no inherent limitation in the hardware that prevents the HD content from being displayed without HDCP turned on. (As shown above with the link this is precisely what happens when AACS protected content is played back on a Linux system).

Eh - they left one of them intact, i think it might be DirectShow, but the rest of them are all fubar'd.  I simply don't care anymore; the day they said they were ousting DirectPlay and DirectInput I said f*** it.

Good riddance. Although DirectInput has in fact not yet been removed from DirectX 10, no one in their right mind should be using them anyway. In fact, for keyboards and mice, it is probably faster to just receive events from the operating system (the usual WM_KEYDOWN, WM_KEYUP, WM_MOUSEMOVE, WM_LBUTTONDOWN, WM_LBUTTONUP, ...) than it is to use DirectInput. Besides, DirectInput is being replaced with XInput (not removed completely). The only reason you really absolutely -need- either is if you need force feedback. Everything else can be accessed other ways.

DirectPlay... I hope that one never comes back. It doesn't support a lot of things which are absolutely critical to get any game to work properly (for example, NAT punchthrough) and takes a lot of control away from the application developer. It also introduces latency that doesn't need to be there (so most programs just use the regular sockets API and introduce their own reliability layer as appropriate for their game).

And yeah, there's no real reason that you need to censor the word Vista.