Weapons

[Marukasu]

I've desided that since the op community doesn't like a stronger force on tactics, that I remade the chart.


Just like before, I appreciate all input.

[Hooman]

Hmm, sticky outranging a thor. I forsee problems. Particularly since sticky also does splash damage, thus further increasing their range to players who exploit the splash damage.

Actually, sticky seems pretty hard to balance in general. Maybe if it was more like other games where you can slow down units, but not actually stop them dead, then there wouldn't be such a large balance shift when small tweaks to the weapons are made. But then I also find that speed decreases in other games usually don't end up with very effective results.


Making rail guns cost rare ore really limits the availability of later weapons for eden, provided the colonies get their traditional weapons. Both due to little or no availability of rare ore, and the time it takes to progress to a point where you can actually harvest rare ore. It basically limits Eden to Laser and EMP (and Starflare, which is not particularly useful against an army), while Plymouth has full access to all of their weapons (except for Supernova, which is a little more useful against an army, but still not usually that great).


Since this is being posted in an OP3 forum, why not suggest a few new weapons? It seems like there is little variety of weapons and tactics in this game. Surely the survival of the human race could warrant a little more creativity.
 

[Marukasu]

Splash? So you mean the area effect?

Also sticky foam as I see it would slow down tigers and panthers and stop lynx and other light weight vehicles. The reason why is because lynxes have less overall (horse power i guess?) than a panther or tiger. I also don't see sticky foam effecting a large area at all.

Making rail guns cost rare ore really limits the availability of later weapons for eden, provided the colonies get their traditional weapons. Both due to little or no availability of rare ore, and the time it takes to progress to a point where you can actually harvest rare ore. It basically limits Eden to Laser and EMP (and Starflare, which is not particularly useful against an army), while Plymouth has full access to all of their weapons (except for Supernova, which is a little more useful against an army, but still not usually that great).

Im sorry i forgot to mention that this is the end game stats for each weapon. Rail gun starts off with no rare cost but fires at a rate of 45.

Also because of the almost jury rigged designs of the early units I think laser would have a short range. Probably 3-4 and with targeting programs added and increased sight range it would be moved up to 7-8.

[Hidiot]

I'll have to say this is better.

Although giving the Thor's Hammer the range of 6 or 7(which was its initial one) would be better. It pretty much relies on lucky hits when going up against... anything that's ranged, having the smallest range and little or no splash.
Acids and ESG's can be counted as having+1 range, cause you can order it to fire next to a vehicle, giving it a 1 range bonus.

Knowing the OP2 system of range and accuracy, the longer the range, the lower the accuracy, some slight problems might occur. I tested it out at range 10 and it misses painfully... We know the Thor's Hammer, which has a normal range of 7, that it misses slightly. A range of 8 should produce a few more accuracy problems. So, it also depends on how the accuracy system will be made in OP3.

And since you made a end-game weapon status, we can surely presume that more weapons will be added during the game. Those need to be balanced with the current ones as well.

[Marukasu]

having the smallest range and little or no splash.

Once again you choose to leave out star flare and supernova.

Although giving the Thor's Hammer the range of 6 or 7(which was its initial one) would be better

So your saying that giving the most powerful reusable weapon in the game a long range would somehow make it balanced.

And since you made a end-game weapon status, we can surely presume that more weapons will be added during the game. Those need to be balanced with the current ones as well.

Any new weapon should be place into the chart with balance, but more importantly realism.

Although giving the Thor's Hammer the range of 6 or 7(which was its initial one) would be better. It pretty much relies on lucky hits when going up against... anything that's ranged, having the smallest range and little or no splash.

How does a more accurate weapon(because of its shorter range) rely on luck?
Especially against something like Esg and Acid cloud that have middle range but more importantly an area effect?

I tested it out at range 10 and it misses painfully...

LOL...
Test 15 its much worse yet people seemed convinced that it would be so powerful.

So, it also depends on how the accuracy system will be made in OP3.

True, and when the system is presented modifications would be obvious.

sticky outranging a thor.

Sticky foam, as I see it, would slow down tigers and panthers and stop lynx and other light weight vehicles. The reason why is because lynxes have less overall (horse power i guess?) than a panther or tiger. I also don't see sticky foam effecting a large area at all.

weapons be added in game will be initially weaker than a more advanced form.





Also giving Thor's hammer the same range as laser makes no logical sense because electricity disperses in the atmosphere fairly rapidly. Which at best would most likely have a shorter range than a missile.

Hidiot
I honestly wonder if you just want op3 to be just another Thor's hammer fest.
I love Thor's hammer to but i don't like weapons that are uber.  Uber weapon ruin even the best games simply because they make one answer almost inherently right.

[BlackBox]

Well, a couple things I can say:

- Stickyfoam stops all vehicles. It doesn't work the way you claim it does (unless you are proposing that the behavior should be changed in OP3 or something).

- You obviously haven't played OP2 multiplayer too much... since it is far from a "Thor's hammer fest" and Thor's Hammer is far from being an "uber weapon." They are not the be-all, end-all weapon. ESG does a pretty good job of taking them out. EMP + weak weapons works well too, thanks to EMP's long range (it's actually fairly easy, from my experience, to take out ~30 Thor's Tigers with just a few units: a few EMP tigers, and some microwave lynx).

- We have to admit that the Thor's Hammer is probably one of the less realistic weapons in the game. Technically, it should work poorly (if at all) for a couple reasons:
1. The atmosphere is very thin. Thus, it probably doesn't conduct very well. If we just assume that it's a vacuum, it doesn't conduct at all -- a perfect dielectric -- because there are no particles in the air to ionize which is necessary for current conduction. Of course we assume it's not a perfect vacuum, but it has a higher dielectric strength than normal air (air's is 3 megavolts / meter). Thus it's very hard to produce lightning.

2. There isn't any voltage sink (at the target vehicle), except maybe on tracked vehicles (where metal tracks would be touching the ground). If wheeled vehicles use rubber / non conductive tires, then an open circuit exists (Thor's Hammer to vehicle, and it can't reach the ground because of the tires). And you would need a much more powerful charge to overcome this, because rubber is a much better dielectric than air / the New Terran atmosphere (having a dielectric strength of about 12 MV / m).

In any case though, we still accept Thor's Hammer as the one scientific discontinuity in the game.

[Marukasu]

(unless you are proposing that the behavior should be changed in OP3 or something)

Well being the fact were in the op3 area i would think so. <_<

In any case though, we still accept Thor's Hammer as the one scientific discontinuity in the game.

Yes... Im  simply trying to make the weapon match up a little bit more with how it would work.

[Hidiot]

I was thinking more for the Acid/ESG VS Thor's hammer thing... No weapon should outrange another weapon by too much. In the OP2 case, 2 is already quite something.

Since lasers get to range 8, Then, with thor's having over 2 range difference, it could never catch up with a laser (think laser lynx vs thor lynx). The laser can usually run away in some directions, avoiding tight corners, whilst attacking the thor lynx. The thor lynx doesn't really have any tactics to kill that laser, unless the laser owner somehow gets that laser in the thor's firing range.


By lucky hit, I was thinking about player luck. Again, for the tactic above, hit and run.
In current OP2, you can use Acids, but most effectively ESGs in lynx fights against Thors' Hammers. You just fire 2 squares away from the thor lynxes, in the direction they're heading, and they will get at least a bit of damage, whilst the Acids/ESGs remain untouched. That way, you only need mistakes or terrain to effectively take out the nasty ranged weapons. But having the same rage makes it a little easier to catch up. Thor's Hammers actually loose against acids and ESGs.

[Marukasu]

I was thinking more for the Acid/ESG VS Thor's hammer thing... No weapon should outrange another weapon by too much. In the OP2 case, 2 is already quite something.

Of coarse if you ignore laser and microwave to thors. 4-7 (Not counting esg's farthest reach of 8.)

Mine is now thors and laser/mic. 5-8

Since lasers get to range 8, Then, with thor's having over 2 range difference, it could never catch up with a laser (think laser lynx vs thor lynx). The laser can usually run away in some directions, avoiding tight corners, whilst attacking the thor lynx.

Guess what! that why you don't send out one unit type. Even in modern war you need support units. And like i've said before, you could easily have the thors in the back till the enemy units are slowed. Or you could use Emps! you realy just don't want to have to think of new support combos do you?!

[Freeza-CII]

Ok here is the problem with that picture.

Laser/Mics that can fire that long will be superior to thors hammer and ESG.  All a Laser/Mic would have to do is run away from them firing.  Even if the thors hammer can do so much damage.  Lasers/Mics are cheap.  There for all you have to do is spam then and just swamp the thors.  These would be even worse in a Tiger form. Rails having a Rare ore cost and RPGs not having a rare cost is absolutely detrimental to eden.  Eden would be stuck with Laser Flare EMP.  While Plymouth would have the much Cheaper RPG which does quite a bit of damage after the Nova research is done.

It appears you want to balance all weapons out.  This should not happen.  Each weapon has its role and purpose.  Lasers and Microwaves are the starter weapons and are pretty good after all there upgrades.  They fire fast and mounted on a lynx they are perfect for Rushing in early game and they are support units that you mix in with Thors/Acid/ESG/RPG and EMP, even in a tiger form.  A Key to this game is to use the tools you have (stock op2) and use tactics to over come your enemy.

[Marukasu]

Laser/Mics that can fire that long will be superior to thors hammer and ESG. All a Laser/Mic would have to do is run away from them firing.

Did you even read what i said! EMP! Or just the raw damage from your long range weapons.


In op2 emps and mics can take on thors. not well but they can.

It appears you want to balance all weapons out. This should not happen. Each weapon has its role and purpose.

Yes! My point IS that EACH weapon has its purpose. Not just the new weapons because like ive said before the old weapons are upgraded with the discovery of new ones!

Lasers and Microwaves are the starter weapons and are pretty good after all there upgrades. They fire fast and mounted on a lynx they are perfect for Rushing in early game and they...

Realism is VERY important and all im suggesting is that the game might have some.
Also why do you insist one referring to one unit against  one unit when you say yourself that you need a mix. Which IS what i've been trying to make.

[Freeza-CII]

EMP is not the answer its range is shorter most of them will die. Or be EMPed themselves when in range.

Yes emp mics can do that but they have to be going against pure Thors most of the time you see mixes of Thor emp or Thor acid emp.

Yes! My point IS that EACH weapon has its purpose. Not just the new weapons because like ive said before the old weapons are upgraded with the discovery of new ones!

This is true already in op2 but the RANGE of the weapons as you have them in the picture is the problem.

[Marukasu]

Please try and remember that lasers and mics as i've represented them are incredibly weak. weaker than in op2. Excluding there range of coarse. There range is realistic and just like thors hammers range can be overcome, so can lasers.

Mics range 8
rail guns range7
acid cloud and esg 6 but with there area effect its basicaly 7
thors hammer 5 but fires about as fast as the "MEGA" lasers but does over 10 times the amount of damage! Also if you've ever used thors hammer you would know it also has an area effect so that makes it even more powerful.


just in case you don't know how far im talking about.

Hmm eden has 2 long range weapons. May bee that just MIGHT have an effect on the battle.

oh and just as a little side comment. You would have to be an idiot to take a lynx and follow a lynx with longer range.(unless you were convinced you could catch up?)


POSTS COMBINED

Laser/Mics that can fire that long will be superior to thors hammer and ESG

And so would thor if it had the range im putting in for laser. But you don't realy care about that.

Its my job here and it was off topic and it was the warning for you. - Freeza-CII
 Thats enough.

[BlackBox]

Don't argue with the mods and admins please...

The deleted posts were off topic and simply flamebait and pointless arguing that added nothing to the conversation.

[Marukasu]

Alright Blackbox what do you think about the modifications to the weapons?
I was talking about op3's weapons and developing depth and a full support system.

[BlackBox]

.... Uhh?

I think you just need to accept that some people are not going to like your ideas. You need to be willing to accept that instead of bashing them over the head for not understanding or liking the idea.

About the weapons modifications, I would agree with a lot of other people. Stickyfoam should not be longer range than Thor's. I personally think the weapons are fine the way they are in OP2, and I would hope that OP3 follow this to some extent. I would rather see new weapons in OP3 than attempts to change the existing ones.

[Marukasu]

About the weapons modifications, I would agree with a lot of other people. Stickyfoam should not be longer range than Thor's. I personally think the weapons are fine the way they are in OP2, and I would hope that OP3 follow this to some extent. I would rather see new weapons in OP3 than attempts to change the existing ones.

Well i would agree if sticky foam froze the unit in its tracks but i have an idea that most units would be merely slowed.


Hooman gave some pretty helpful feedback but freeza seems to think that Thor's Hammer should in addition to have a huge amount of power have the longest range. Beyond even laser which in a thin atmosphere would be quite the opposite.

I would rather see new weapons in OP3 than attempts to change the existing ones.

Oh yeah  But I also want it to be that if there are any of the old weapons that the be a little more realistic. :blush:  

[Arklon]

I would rather see new weapons in OP3 than attempts to change the existing ones.

Oh yeah  But I also want it to be that if there are any of the old weapons that the be a little more realistic. :blush:

Realism and games don't mix because reality is a b**** at times.

[Marukasu]

Im not meaning strict realism im meaning realism that makes you feel like the game is more REAL.

and yeah reality is a _____ sometimes and that why we have games

[Sirbomber]

But I also want it to be that if there are any of the old weapons that the be a little more realistic. :blush:

If Outpost was any more realistic, not only would most of these weapons not exist, but Eden and Plymouth would have wasted all their resources on the war and completely neglected building their starships.

Besides, Genesis takes place on a "Venus-like" world, yes? Those would have thick atmospheres, making Laser and Microwave based weapons have less range than they did on New Terra, not more.

Edit by BlackBox -- it's called Genesis. Stop misspelling it like "genes***" in order to slam their project any more than it has already been.
Response: I did no such thing. I may have typo'ed somewhere in that post, but I didn't call it, well, you know (not intentionally anyways). But that is a good point.

[Marukasu]

Besides, Genesis takes place on a "Venus-like" world, yes? Those would have thick atmospheres, making Laser and Microwave based weapons have less range than they did on New Terra, not more.

Okay well that makes more sense . I remember reading somewhere people saying that aircrafts wouldn't work because of the thin atmosphere :huh: . Hmm well I guess aircrafts could work on the new planet then. :lol:  

[Freeza-CII]

There is no reason to.

[Sirbomber]

And don't double post. Edit your old post if you need to say something.

[Marukasu]

Here freeza i think this will be a design you'll like.
http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee177/M...tmapImage-4.jpg


The targeting method for thors hammer was described as "Firing a targeting beam of positively-charged ions at the target" .

In this picture laser is shown to have a great range. Possibly even greater than Thor's.

[Freeza-CII]

Well you also have to realize that the Thor might just be closer to the base because it actually is it doesnt really prove the weapons ranges.  Its like take a picture of a pistol and a cannon and the cannon being closes when firing.