Author Topic: Robo-digger  (Read 9314 times)

Offline Sirbomber

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Robo-digger
« on: July 13, 2007, 10:58:55 AM »
I was playing La Corr when I started thinking about those places that you can't get to in between the bases. Maybe a unit could dig through cliffs to make passable ares, allowing you to reach previously inaccesible areas? Of course, there is always the problem of people using this to dig into an enemy base and turn a well-defended bottleneck into an open field, but then again they could just destroy it before it finishes (it should probably be a slow process).

The best use for this would be to create shortcuts between allies and get to resources in inaccessible parts of the map.

Of course, this wouldn't be a perfect process. If you aren't careful you may cause a landslide, destroying/damaging anything near the landslide and making it harder to dig out. Digging near a magma vent or volcano may result in... tragic consequences for your colony.

If something like this was previously suggested, then oops. I tried looking but the only thing I could find that was remotely related to this was Combine's elevator idea and something about digging underground.
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Offline Arklon

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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2007, 11:32:44 AM »
Sounds better than snail units.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2007, 11:34:18 AM »
Thanks, I guess...?
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Offline Brazilian Fan

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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2007, 12:19:09 PM »
This is a nice idea, and it doesn't seem to be 'impossible' to do...

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2007, 01:35:33 PM »
This is very simular to building bridges or elevators to get over terrain that is not ment to be crossed in the first place.

It is possible to get through a bottle neck.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2007, 03:01:42 PM »
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This is very simular to building bridges or elevators to get over terrain that is not ment to be crossed in the first place.
Bridges and elevators are impossible to build unless you already have access to the other side.  Digging into a steep cliff to flatten it out is realistic.  And so what if you originally couldn't get to a certain part of the terrain?  Outpost 2 is the only RTS where there are parts of the map you actually can't get to.  In every other game you can fly, swim, or teleport to previously inaccessible areas.  Besides, why would we even want to block off large parts of a map?  Being able to access new parts of a map adds to the replay value.
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It is possible to get through a bottle neck.
What does that have to do with anything?
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2007, 03:51:16 PM »
You can build a bridge from one side to another easy. its done alot with bridges.  And a Elevator is even easier because you just build up till you get to where you want and secure it.  But building over lava is not possible as you would need a bridge style that needs both sides at the same time.

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Outpost 2 is the only RTS where there are parts of the map you actually can't get to.

Star Craft has places you can not get to.  And i remember some places in C&C that could not be gotten to as well.

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turn a well-defended bottleneck into an open field

You just want a way to circumvent a bottle neck by a easy method This is really no different then a bridge or a elevator.  And you must also remember that OP3 will most likey not have the Sheer cliff faces that op2 has.  With the Op2 maps it was to keep people in there bases and make them actually fight to try to win instead of Noobing there way around a fight just to have that victory with little effort.  Much like the uber weapons suggested by a few people.  Despite how fast it actually works.  Also Connecting with allies seems to be some thing of a contradiction when you say it just by looking at your sig.  but with the time you took to build a tunnel you could have buster through and killed them on LaCo.  If your plymouth its really easy if your Eden EMP/Thors hammers work well against a blockade.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2007, 04:36:22 PM »
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Then there is the practcal reason A Ski lift style device made to move heavy things like tanks and trucks around would have to be monsterously huge on both ends and it would be incredibly slow  unless its going to be powered by a motor powered up by a Tokamak or two.
So first you tell everyone that bridges and elevators are impossible and unfeasible until you suddenly feel like saying they do? A bit hypocritical, aren't we Freeza?
In Starcraft you load a Dropship and fly to wherever you need to go. And I never wasted my time/money with C&C, so I wouldn't know, though I do remember there was that one thing that could warp you anywhere on the map, or was that Red Alert?
I said it shouldn't be used to get around a bottleneck and if anyone tries you should be able to stop them without any problems.

And what does building a shotcut to your ally have to do with my sig? I have no problem with allies combining their defense and helping each other.

So what if they can build a bridge like you said? It's easier to just stick a Flare in the cliff, detonate, and climb up.
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2007, 04:56:31 PM »
I think pointless was to wording i use. Sirbomber please read more then what you want to like the rest of the humans.

I think you should play starcraft again.  i am quiet sure there are places you cant get.

I dont advocate the bridge Idea at all. Its just more of a comparison and going with your reasoning that you have to have both sides to make a bridge is wrong.


my point in all of that which you didnt comment on is you want a way to have a easy win on maps with one entry.  But instead of a new unit to circumvent a opening which can be breached and has been done so many times before.  play a different map.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2007, 05:01:19 PM »
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Sirbomber please read more then what you want to like the rest of the humans.
Maybe you should listen to your own advice Freeza. I've said twice now that it shouldn't be for finding another way into an enemy base and you keep ignoring that.

And unless you're talking about water there's nowhere you can't go in Starcraft. But you get over the water to a new place with air units. The point is you can get past it. I think we should have a way to get around obstacles, and I thought this would be a nice, realistic way.

Unless of course you think air units would be a better solution Freeza.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 05:01:42 PM by Sirbomber »
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2007, 05:05:47 PM »
I did not ignore that.

Air units now your just trying to bait me.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2007, 05:11:43 PM »
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I did not ignore that.
Then why do you keep saying that I'm trying to find an easy way through bottle necks? Breaking through a bottleneck is fun.

Let's move away from La Corr. How about Rock Garden?
Rock Garden is a pain to build on (which is probably why nobody plays it).
Wouldn't you like to be able to dig some of those annoying rocks out of the way?
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2007, 05:17:20 PM »
No I woundnt thats what makes the map fun.  Having to build around the environment instead of flattening it out.  It just shows that humans do not adapt they adapt there surroundings to them.

Basicly if you dont like those maps.  Make a new map or play a more open map.

Offline Mcshay

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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2007, 05:33:02 PM »
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No I woundnt thats what makes the map fun.  Having to build around the environment instead of flattening it out.  It just shows that humans do not adapt they adapt there surroundings to them.
Thats Eden's view on planets, they will change it to make it better for them (the terraforming microbe for example).  

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2007, 05:49:15 PM »
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Having to build around the environment instead of flattening it out.  It just shows that humans do not adapt they adapt there surroundings to them.
Then maybe we make it an Eden-only thing.
I don't see why that should be a problem. You aren't going to destroy anything's natural habitat, right?
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2007, 05:51:51 PM »
They both wanted to terraform not JUST eden.  Eden just tryed to take a short cut and got f***ed over.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 05:54:39 PM »
Uh, no... Maybe you should watch the intro Freeza, or read the help manual.
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Then, things began to fall apart. The colonists divided into two groups, one that wanted to conquer New Terra, and a second that wished to adapt to its harsh environment. In the end, it was the second group that took their share of supplies and resources and moved away to form a splinter colony, which they named Plymouth.
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Offline Psudomorph

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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 10:20:24 PM »
Since OP3 maps are going to be 3D, it seems like a robodigger would have a great deal of potential.
For one thing, it would indeed be a great way to pass previously impassable terrain. Doubtless the tunneling would be a non-trivial process probably requiring a significant amount of time.
Terrain would vary underground too, some types of rock would be prone to cave-ins, others would be too fragile to dig through at all. Heat from volcanic phenomena would create impassable areas as well. On the other hand, some areas might be so stable that the only thing that could cave them in would be an explosion.
Natural caverns might also exist (depending on planet) that would either make tunneling easier if they were in the right place, or harder if they happened to be in the wrong place.

For war efforts, I can see people trying to break bottlenecks with a tunnel, but it would not be an easy task. Tunnels are all too easy to cave in, and I can see defenses being devised for the express purpose of countering diggers (robo-moles rigged with explosives anyone? Certain guard posts could be upgraded to contain a supply of them that would prevent enemy tunneling within a certain underground radius of said post).
EDIT: Now that I think about it, even detonating some Starflares (or equivalent OP3  vehicle) above an enemy tunnel might cause enough seismic activity to collapse it. There should be no excuse but laziness for letting an enemy tunnel under your base.

If an enemy were foolish enough not to defend against underground attacks, then I think a particularly cool idea would be to send supernova-type vehicles into a tunnel deep under the enemy colony and detonate them, causing a minor earthquake above (but collapsing the tunnel of course).
Or maybe dig underneath their mine and cut off their ore supply?

On a non-combat front, I can envision robodiggers being used in mining or resource transport.

Here is how I think mining will go in OP3: Since it is 3d, resource veins will be located a certain ways underground. Robominers must get within a certain distance of those resources, since logically the robomoles would only have a limited range from the miner.
Now imagine there is a large deposit of resources below some very inhospitable terrain. It would be infeasible to move the robominer close enough, so instead you use a robodigger to dig a long slanting tunnel below the terrain, and then deploy a robominer at the bottom of that tunnel.
It would be a difficult way to mine, but it might be worthwhile for particularly valuable deposits.

While we are at it, why not have a robodigger hollow out an even larger hole in the ground, and then construct a building in it. An underground building would be protected from disasters and attacks (at least until the enemy brings in their own diggers, or severs some tube connections).
I can even see custom maps being made with so many disasters that the only safe place to build is underground. Such a map would present some unique challenges.

EDIT:I know this topic is not supposed to be about building underground, but come on, that is a logical extension of a digger. Certainly building underground would not be the best choice, or even a good choice for many situations, but there could certainly be reasons for it. It would just have to have it's own set of advantages and perils.

I think the peacetime uses of a robodigger would be significant, even if it does not prove valuable as a military tool. I don't know to what extent war will dominate OP3, but in the event that there are opportunities to develop a colony that is not the focus of a massive war effort, tunneling may prove essential.
If modern society on earth is anything to go by, then there are a whole lot of reasons to dig underground.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 10:29:41 PM by Psudomorph »

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2007, 11:42:33 PM »
I don't think we should really get into any underground stuff. Not that those aren't good ideas, just that it would be a pain to take care of all of that in-game, and I doubt many people would take the time to add underground caverns to their maps.

Considering fairness, however, maybe it would be better for the digger to basically "build" a ramp on a cliff instead of digging an underground tunnel...

Thanks for your support though.
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2007, 11:45:38 PM »
Well, there is one game that sticks out when tunnels are mentioned. That game is The Moon Project.

I think instead of allowing the player to basically 'delete' part of a cliff by using 'diggers' or whatever, it should instead be a totally separate layer (the tunnels). This is how The Moon Project works. First of all, special entrances and exits have to be built to let vehicles go from aboveground to underground and vice versa (and these can only be built in certain places, not on hills). This would prevent its use as a way to bypass bottlenecks since you would have to be able to reach the other side to build the tunnel exit (you couldn't just pop up inside their base).

Also, in Starcraft there are ways to get to anywhere on the map that you want. Air units are the biggest example (there is nowhere that an air unit can't go). There are also other ways to get to normally inaccessible lands (Zerg Nydus Canals / Protoss Arbiter 'Recall' special ability come to mind).

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2007, 01:03:31 AM »
The Tunnels will be used for one thing building straight to a enemies base instead of playing a map like it was suppose to be.  Tunnel to enemy base pour units in.  And with all the justifications thrown around it will still happen.  No one likes a Nydus canal just appearing out side there base or inside there base if there zerg and it ususally leads to the victum being dead.  But after you read this I have no doubt that some one will spew idealism like WELL dont let them do that.  The same with EMP missiles  you cant stop them all the time.  If you spam diggers youll break through and win.  And that seems just as cheap as a missile.  Plus I would like to state that you are basing a OP2 map on a game that will be 3D and the map will most likely have different properties.

And sirbomber I am not a purist I just try to keep the stuff that would give unfair advantage to a side out of op3.  Being able to go over terrain with one side that the other side can not will disrupt the balance.

What I see personally.  I see Sirbomber trying to make a unit that will beable to let him win the game with out trying to break a bottle neck.  Breaking them is possible and some time can end up being the downfall of the attacker.  And as stated before If it is a problem you have with the map make a new map or play a different map.

Offline Mcshay

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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2007, 06:41:58 AM »
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The Tunnels will be used for one thing building straight to a enemies base instead of playing a map like it was suppose to be.

It could simply be impossible to build an exit next to an enemy's base.

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No one likes a Nydus canal just appearing out side there base or inside there base if there zerg and it ususally leads to the victum being dead.

Nydus exits take time to build (if I remember correctly), and can be easily killed by any good player when their enemy decides to invade using them.

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The same with EMP missiles  you cant stop them all the time.  If you spam diggers youll break through and win.

No it's not like an EMP missile. With what bomber was envisioning, any other player has time to destroy it while it is still building its pass (because it goes slow). EMP missiles can be built quickly and are hidden away in a player's base to be hard to stop.

I mean come on, how hard will it be to kill something when your enemy can't even defend it from your side? And if they are over the wall (to defend it building), then you already failed to defend against them.

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2007, 11:39:00 AM »
How does a tunneling machine get attacked when its under ground?

Offline Mcshay

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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2007, 11:54:56 AM »
You wouldn't attack it while it was tunneling, but attack it while it was surfacing. Yes it does sound strange, but I'm not even sure why we started talking about tunnels. The original point of this topic was to discuss a unit that leveled the terrain above ground where it can be easily attacked.

If we must discuss tunneling, then perhaps the defender should defend his underground too (continuing on the example provided by hacker about The Moon Project).

Offline TRIX Rabbit

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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2007, 02:52:16 PM »
I like the idea of a digger. Perhaps the digger, while er... digging, could sometimes find an ore deposit, and a strip or cliff-side mine could be made. Just an idea. The digger could have several different purposes, like modify regular mines and help them dig deeper or something like that. I dont think it should be limited to digging away at cliffs.
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