Fog Of War

[Leviathan]

I think there should be the option to turn fog of war on and off. op2 dosent have it but a lot of rts games do and it would be great to have it in genesis.

[Freeza-CII]

Let me ask you this would any one ever turn it on i mean really the only thing the fog of war does is hidden units and if people want to do that they can just wait for night time and shut off there lights.

[dm-horus]

since you can see all units on the minimap, fog of war really does very little.

[croxis]

Horus, this isn't outpost 2 and therefor we are not limited to its mechanics.  This is Op 3, not op 2.5


If fog of war was an option most people would play with it off, except for those with lower end computers as it does give a performance boost.  In Op2 there was a limited fog of war with being able to turn off the unit lights - a more robust and effective stealth system could be developed instead which fog of war would be less desirable to those who play with stealth.

Another option is Fog o war until the player launches a satellite.

[dm-horus]

i dont think fog of war would do anything to performance since any units are still held in memory, right?

im aware this isnt op2, but i was applying the argument to all outpost games present and future. is op3 really going to be that different?

[Betaray]

I like options, a fog of war could add a new level of challange, because currently I spend  almost as much time looking at the enemys colony as I do my own, if they build novas, I counter with lynx, if they build tigers, I also build tigers, if they are ply and have spaceports I build MD's

also an idea for the satellite, when launched, at least for world maps, instead of reveling the whole map, it would reveal a circular or oval portion of the map at once, and that portion would slowly move, going with the orbit of the satalite, that way even with it, there is still an element of not knowing whats out there

[Tramis]

is op3 really going to be that different?

I should hope so!  As croxis said ,this is OP3, not 2.5.  People need to understand that it won't be just a 3d remake - its a sequel with new rules, new content, probably pretty much new everything.  If it was the exact same as OP2,  nobody would see the point.

As for fog of war, I think it would make sense to not have it - if you read the description for the Orbital Package, it says the package includes orbital observers, meaning htey already have the sensors in place to eliminate the fog of war.

[Leviathan]

the only thing the fog of war does is hidden units and if people want to do that they can just wait for night time and shut off there lights.

no. shuting of the lights does not have the same effect as you can still see the units or structures, just not on the minimap.

with fog of war you can sit outside somesone base and if there not scouting they wont know your there. also you wont know what a player has built at their base unless u can get scouts in.

what he means by performance boost is that the graphics wont have to draw all of the units.

and nice idea Betaray.

also with the orbital observers that may be releveant to the story and single player but standard multiplayer is not story based, it is just using the game to battle one another. like in red alert - untill you launch a satalite you cant see the whole map etc.

more options the better

[croxis]

Right.  Fog of War would bring a new dimension to gameplay - covert operations and the like (ie, the stealth path from my design thread).  While I do not think it would be popular, I after thinking about it I do think it would be used enough to recommend its development.

OP1 and OP2 were very different games with very different mechanics.  OP3 can take the lessons learned from the previous two.  It should be different and new and fresh.  Much like how Civilization 1-4 are each quite different and it isn't often that the same strategies will work from one tot he next.

[Leviathan]

RTS is about scout and adapt and the scout part is a bit too easy in OP2. i like having to sneak into other peoples base with a quick unit and get a glimpse of their tech.

[Tramis]

Good idea.

My vote -there is a Fog of War, and since all the vehicles are robots, they wouldn't have a very long sensor range to lift this fog of war, except for the Scout (yet another thing making them worthwhile to build)  Eventually you could launch and Orbital Observer, and when this satellite is in orbit, you can select it from the Satellites menu and click "target" and choose where it's pointing.  By default its at your own base, but say you want to look at your opponent.  A certain "spotlight" of lifted Fog of War would move across the battlefield to his base.  The more Orbital Observers you launch, the more area you can cover.  There could also be research to widen this area.

[Chandler]

Eventually you could launch and Orbital Observer, and when this satellite is in orbit, you can select it from the Satellites menu and click "target" and choose where it's pointing.  By default its at your own base, but say you want to look at your opponent.  A certain "spotlight" of lifted Fog of War would move across the battlefield to his base.  The more Orbital Observers you launch, the more area you can cover.  There could also be research to widen this area.

And perhaps have an option to make them orbit, like Betarays idea, having a moving "spotlight" where the satellite can see.

[CK9]

i dont think fog of war would do anything to performance since any units are still held in memory, right?
 

Correct, however, those of us with 'lower-end computers' know how much of an impact it really makes.  it's not very noticeable when you have, let's say, 10 units comstantly moving around on the map.  However, when you add about 50 more, there's a noticable difference in the ammount of lag you get.  It's mainly the transition from the information of where the units are to the displaying of the units.  In lower numbers, there's not as much information to exchange, so it runs fairly well.  But once you get a few sizeable armies moving around the map all at the same time, the information builds up.  Those of us with crappier CPU's and other game-related components get heavy lag.


So, yeah, I like the fog of war idea, keeping the units off the screen until they are within view range = less lag for CK = A happier CK

[croxis]

Frommy understanding the problem is with the gpu and the number of polygons it has to draw.  keeping track of what is where really doesn't take up that much information.  the problems comes with the graphical polygon drawing.  The fewer polygons (and textures and lighting) the faster it goes.

[Tramis]

Yes, to my understanding, the graphics is what causes 99% of the lag (aside from internet connections)

[lordly_dragon]

Fog of war is in my opinon a MUSt in multiplayer rts game. I think it is adding a deeper level of possible strategies.... In op2 you alway see what your oponent is up to thus make the game a little bit weird and unreal.

[Skydock Command]

since you can see all units on the minimap, fog of war really does very little.

Why dont we hide them in the mini map to then?

[Stormy]

is op3 really going to be that different?

I should hope so!  As croxis said ,this is OP3, not 2.5.  People need to understand that it won't be just a 3d remake - its a sequel with new rules, new content, probably pretty much new everything.  If it was the exact same as OP2,  nobody would see the point.

As for fog of war, I think it would make sense to not have it - if you read the description for the Orbital Package, it says the package includes orbital observers, meaning htey already have the sensors in place to eliminate the fog of war.

It would make sense not to have it, I agree.

It may work as a mod idea for later though. Remember, OP3 will be easilly modable (if all goes according to plan, which it is so far)

[Leviathan]

i do like the idea of the game staying similar to op2 and keeping to some of the same rules but i think it needs to have the various fog of war options in the standard game as many other rts games have fog of war.

[lordly_dragon]

they make surprise attack and cover operation impossible unless your playing a blind man....I second leviathan  

[Skydock Command]

Why dont we have it in the hard version of OP3 then?

[TH300]

Why dont we have it in the hard version of OP3 then?

There won't be a 'hard version of op3'.

We could make fog of war optional and then it would be up to the mission designer to switch it on/off.

[james239]

Yeah, optional would be best, then ppl who are looking for more of a challenge can play with it turned on.

[Tellaris]

People ever heard of Day/Night?   And ever heard of turning off lights?   It works wonders.
I'm hoping you OP3 makers will stick to that lovely little feature

[BlackBox]

Horus, this isn't outpost 2 and therefor we are not limited to its mechanics.  This is Op 3, not op 2.5


If fog of war was an option most people would play with it off, except for those with lower end computers as it does give a performance boost.  In Op2 there was a limited fog of war with being able to turn off the unit lights - a more robust and effective stealth system could be developed instead which fog of war would be less desirable to those who play with stealth.

Another option is Fog o war until the player launches a satellite.

I have two things to say here:

1- Fog of war isn't that realistic. Unless you are doing guerilla-type ground warfare like in the Vietnam War (involving trees and other cover), it makes little sense. In OP2/3 they are modern enough to be able to detect units using satellites, infrared cameras, etc and there is very little (read: no) cover. (And don't tell me they wouldn't have something orbiting in space that could take pictures for them {in OP2 there is evidence that the Conestoga was orbiting for quite a while}, or that units don't produce heat {not even the coolest of cold fusion is going to be by any means 'cold'}. Nor am I saying a player would need to build IR cameras or special satellites in the game, that would be overcomplicating the game).
Fog of War mainly exists in other RTS games as a method to balance it (and OP2 is quite balanced without it, I'm sure OP3 can be balanced without requiring fog of war). And then just think about it from a practicality standpoint - I don't see black mist or anything when I drive down a road I haven't been down before.

2- There would be really no performance concern as it doesn't take that much power to render simple units with a few polygons on the screen. Besides, the computer still has to do a lot of work to handle lighting as would be required by fog of war.

If people really want it, then it should be an option that can be toggled on and off, and off by default. Personally I don't think we need it.