Non-deterministic Research

[dm-horus]

yes, the point of a game is that any advantage can be balanced and equalized with another advantage to the opposition. making everything random makes it a game of chance and luck, not of experience.

seasoned players will know all the tricks and can apply that, but if everything is more or less random and nobody can ever stand to expect anything, there would be no way to predict what actions will yeild the best results.

and besides, look at real life. when a house is hit with a rocket, it just explodes. if you shoot 100 rockets at 100 houses and they all hit, you never see 20 of them intact with just a couple scorches. in op2, buildings can be destroyed easily and making their hitpoints random enough so that two buildings of the same type take different numbers of hits to destroy just makes it seem illogical and strange. why would a colony build one residence with more armor than another? why would anyone intentionally build a turret that rotates slower than others and leave it that way?

the colonists in op2 are supposed to be masters of efficiency. its the only reason theyve survived this long. so would it really make sense to start seeing them suddenly not care that any two like buildings have vastly different structural integrity? (and arent structure kits manufactured by predetermined plans by computer? the only way that two structures would have different hit points is if the computer made them that way. why would it?) would it make sense to see those people deploy a weapon of war that determines their survival with less than peak turret rotation? i dont think so.

in cards, an ace is an ace. theres no such thing as a "greater" and "lesser" ace.

[croxis]

I think you are thinking this is something it isn't.  Other than a SMAC style research, its not random, but is ultimately based on how well you manage your colonists if I am understaning the OP correctly.

[TH300]

yes, the point of a game is that any advantage can be balanced and equalized with another advantage to the opposition. making everything random makes it a game of chance and luck, not of experience.

seasoned players will know all the tricks and can apply that, but if everything is more or less random and nobody can ever stand to expect anything, there would be no way to predict what actions will yeild the best results.

and besides, look at real life. when a house is hit with a rocket, it just explodes. if you shoot 100 rockets at 100 houses and they all hit, you never see 20 of them intact with just a couple scorches. in op2, buildings can be destroyed easily and making their hitpoints random enough so that two buildings of the same type take different numbers of hits to destroy just makes it seem illogical and strange. why would a colony build one residence with more armor than another? why would anyone intentionally build a turret that rotates slower than others and leave it that way?

the colonists in op2 are supposed to be masters of efficiency. its the only reason theyve survived this long. so would it really make sense to start seeing them suddenly not care that any two like buildings have vastly different structural integrity? (and arent structure kits manufactured by predetermined plans by computer? the only way that two structures would have different hit points is if the computer made them that way. why would it?) would it make sense to see those people deploy a weapon of war that determines their survival with less than peak turret rotation? i dont think so.

in cards, an ace is an ace. theres no such thing as a "greater" and "lesser" ace.

what are you talking about? who said, we'd want to make vecs/structures of the same colony have different properties?

It won't be completely random. This thread is about determining the maximal randomness that might be good for the game. So far you are only against making it totally random. If you are also against small amounts of randomness, say that and explain why, please.

[Freeza-CII]

Ok TH300 You said that the research is dependant on the scientists but the fact is the scientists are all trained they same so they would pretty much be carbon copies of each other in the knowledge.  Lets say this Eden Colony (Colony A) did the laser research and they get the damage on there weapon of 6.  How ever the other Eden Colony (Colony B) does the same research only there weapon gets the damage of 10.  Now you say Colony A has to wait till the scientists come up with some way to make it better.  This is the imbalance.  You should know that a imbalance is created right away in the game with Plymouth vs. Eden just different Tech trees.

The quality of scientists really wouldnt be a issue because of the training they get as said above.  How ever the ammount of scientists to get the research done faster seems more plauseble like it is in OP2.  The imbalance that would be cause and having to wait for a solution wouldnt be good.

 

[TH300]

If research was done by machines, the outcome would probably be the same every time. But its done by humans and humans have weaknesses, they are not all the same, even if their genes were selected or whatever.

I don't want to insist on my position that this won't disadvantage anyone. The best would probably be to wait and test it as soon as we can test it.

[Tramis]

So suppose it wasn't random.  Suppose there was no random factor at all.  Suppose also, however, that we threw in elements from OP1 - It doesn't tell you right out what the research will give you, and there's a bunch of researches that don't actually give you anything, but rather just expand the tech tree.  No randomness, each player is the same, apart from colony differences, and though it's still predictable, you have to pay attention to know what you're shooting for.

[omagaalpha]

Hopeful all those that disagree will see light like the idea.
Tramis that funny to implement in op2 or op3 see reaction all those more into war part game.  :heh:

[Freeza-CII]

excuse me but thats is what RTS is WAR and battle. if all you do is research and sit in your base its a Sim City clone.

[Tramis]

And if all you do all day is kill kill kill, its a Starcraft clone.  There is a fine balance that exists in OP2, between killing the other guy and focusing on your base.  people's focus on that combat aspect, is what overturns that balance.  The very fact that it isn't entirely combat oriented is what sets OP2 apart from every other RTS in existence.  OP2 is not, contrary to popular opinion, meant to be an entirely combat-oriented RTS.  If it is, then point me towards a Colony Game or Campaign level orinally created by Sierra, in which the goal is to level the other base, and I'll take it all back.

[omagaalpha]

excuse me but thats is what RTS is WAR and battle. if all you do is research and sit in your base its a Sim City clone.




 

sim city does not have research in it & too boring more so then even outpost 1.5 . I don't have direct what built in city so your wroung about that. That stop play simcity series long time ago.
  If think I going to go all out try promote no war in game, then your wroung. Maybe went off tangent it just big fifferents in games.

oh think you responed to Tramis idea about outpost 1 style reseach but my point still valid.

Tramis next time post idea in thread with idea already just start new thread so does not confuse people who responed to what.

Back track main thread

If research was done by machines, the outcome would probably be the same every time. But its done by humans and humans have weaknesses, they are not all the same, even if their genes were selected or whatever.

I don't want to insist on my position that this won't disadvantage anyone. The best would probably be to wait and test it as soon as we can test it.

If in test they find out give too big disadvanage and advanages no matter what they let go of idea, for part game make sure stuff implment make fair play for all.

 

[croxis]

Hey I like SimCity, especally 4 =P

I agree, there is a fine line that OP 3 will be walking.  Both the domestic and militart aspects in OP2 were simple and both could use much more texture to it.  The game should (and by the sound of the devs will) be designed where one side can't be ignored over the other.  A military player who ignroes the needs of his colony should lose, and a player who doesn't build any military or defences should lose.

Just because the game is real time doesn't mean its an RTS.  If anything the devs should strive to make this play like realtime 4x game, just maybe not quite as long =P

[Sirbomber]

A military player who ignroes the needs of his colony should lose, and a player who doesn't build any military or defences should lose.

OP2 has all of that. It's called unchecking the "Morale Steady" box.

[TH300]

I see that the people around here have different interests.
I'd like to fulfill all your wishes.
I will propose that whereas in the Campaign the player has to cope with all aspects of the game, in other games the player can choose whether to play a C&C-style game or rather SimCity like.

However, that is not subject of this thread.

[FallTime]

I think it is not a very bad idea - I liked it very much in (Sid Meier's) Alpha Centauri (and Alien Crossfire). Before you started the game, you could choose whether you want to make research "deterministic" or not. If you selected the other one, you could just say what area of research do they have to interest in - pure knowledge advance (ie. Fusion technology, Graviton theory and such), combat applications (ie. Lynx, Laser, Microwave...), buildings (ie. DIRT...).  

[omagaalpha]

While yes choose between blind research and choose what research. Also had several catergores that infinite so no many time research it still could research more. But that it of how it relate to this idea.

For idea research varies in time and so do stats for building and vehicle and weapons attrutibrute varies respective with researxh time(obvously with limit so does make player have no chance to win game)


Also idea implemenet there should be checker make sure that player or ai don't keep get same thing happening to them for each research topic. so prevent from player get small time to research 10,000 times.

[Skydock Command]

In my oppinon the Maximum amount of randomness is the amount of chance to hit a vheical.

[Leviathan]

This is starting to sounds more like it would cause a major inbalance in the game between colonies even if there the same.

indeed it would.

it could work in single player but not multiplayer. a multiplayer game needs to have the same rules each time you play with thos settings. it needs to be fair and balanced.

[lordly_dragon]

I think in op2 there is some randomness regarding the combat... If you move less likely you will get hit by direct type weapon (exaple laser)... I seen hit that failed a lot... BUT if you move your shot are inacurate too. so the exact same battle if played really really tight can be won by the player who had more luck. So about luck factor nothing is new here. Same goes in some other game such as Warcraft  3 and even starcraft...

YES there is luck!

[Skydock Command]

Ok. Thanks for clearing that. Now to quote myself, the maximum amount of chance should be the chance of hitting a target.