Author Topic: Moogle's Bannedness  (Read 5547 times)

Offline zhukant

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Moogle's Bannedness
« on: December 28, 2005, 06:39:01 PM »
HOLD ON
Before you vote, please scroll down to Freeza's post on evidence of Moogle's bad behaviour. I feel this poll is unfair to the people who are opposed to the lifting of the ban, so I urge you to read the evidence before you vote.




I have decided to stay my course, and vote for the first one, because we are all a family, and should be able to tolerate things such as Moogle acting up occasionally. Banning people bears a negative effect on all of OPU, not just the victim of the ban.
         With all due respect,
         zhukant
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 12:48:06 AM by Zhukant »
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Offline zanco

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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2005, 06:56:54 PM »
Agree!
I don't think a "ban" should be used as a solution for whatever problem or whatever behavior someone was/is having in the main channel. Maybe he did something really bad and we weren't there to accuratelly assess the "gravity of his behavior". Even if he was "acting up", I think he has been punished long enough.
Come to think of it, we can't really ban people for a long time; we are a pretty small community and such decision doesn't give a good image of us.


Yeah, something else: You shouldn't just write "Moogle." Write his all nick (MoogleKupoHax)  ;)  I used to confuse him with MogyMog.



Edit: word choice: assess instead of access.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 11:09:52 PM by zanco »
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Offline HaXtOr

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2005, 07:17:12 PM »
Quote
I don't think a "ban" should be used as a solution for whatever problem or whatever behavior someone was/is having in the main channel. Maybe he did something really bad and we weren't there to accuratelly access the "gravity of his behavior". Even if he was "acting up", I think he has been punished long enough.

Ever scince I was born I have been labled with "behavior problems"

Quote
Come to think of it, we can't really ban people for a long time; we are a pretty small community and such decision doesn't give a good image of us.

Yes it has been a long punishment... several months now...?

Quote
Yeah, something else: You shouldn't just write "Moogle." Write his all nick (MoogleKupoHax)  ;)  I used to confuse him with MogyMog.

I was woried about The MogyMog name confusion when he joined... admins didnt agree with me on that...

BTW... MoogleKupoHax = Haxtor on the forums :-P

Offline instigator

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2005, 08:04:29 PM »
Well i guess i dont have much room to say anything becuase ive been gone a long time ( lol ). But i'd like to know what he was doing to deserve a ban... i mean really i didnt know what was up. anyway i vote the 'dont isolate...' ( the first one) but ill be watching you um...haxtor!? that is if i can stay on irc.... ugh

im for second chances!!! or third... or fourth.... or 5th... or 6th... or omg NVM!!!

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P.S what is with the /I thingy in my 'signature'!?!?! when i preveiw the post its not there... oh well
« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 08:06:32 PM by instigator »

Offline Stormy

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2005, 08:08:36 PM »
Ditto.

I think the punishment was long enough, I mean come on, if anyone gets out of hand, I think we all can calm people down, As long as we keep our cool we can mediate people and it will work out.

I Second (or whatever) the movemnt to unban moogle.

Nothing personal,

stormy
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 12:02:13 PM by Stormy »
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Offline wizisi2k

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2005, 08:09:55 PM »
it might be wise to state why exactly he has been banned in the past.  I have heard something about him threatening toleave OPU but nothing else really so I can't tell if he deserves the ban or not- but I do think that it shouldn't be done-the community is tiny as it is and a ban should be used ONLY if he deserves it and only for a certain length (ie a month or 2) and then see if he still deserves it b/c banning him might make him change his attitude

Offline zhukant

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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2005, 08:30:03 PM »
Ok, I've thought about it and decided to add this. It may not be the whole story, and may not even be true as far as I know, but since people requested it, I'll add a quote from the IRC channel. Here it is:

Quote
[13:51] <zhukant> what happened to make him get banned?
[13:51] <OPU|Leviathan> he kept being spaming or somthing
[13:52] <Sirbomber> He was being, well, moogle....
[13:52] <zhukant> and you couldn't work anything out?
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> correct
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> we told him many times to stop
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> but he did it yet again
[13:52] <zhukant> Do you know why he did it?
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> cuz hes moogle
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> and i am me
[13:53] <OPU|Leviathan> get it?
[13:53] <zhukant> not really
[13:53] <OPU|Leviathan> were all ourselves
[13:53] <OPU|Leviathan> he didnt want to listen to our rules
[13:56] <OPU|Leviathan> sorry that it had to come to this
[13:56] <Sirbomber> Yeah
[13:57] <OPU|Freeza-CII> all i am going to say moogle was getting out of hand and we kept giving him another chance to try to not do those thing but it was futile and he started to get worse and we just got tired of it
[13:57] <OPU|Leviathan> rite
[13:57] <OPU|Leviathan> somthin like that
[13:58] <OPU|Leviathan> shame aint it
[13:58] <OPU|Leviathan> :(
[14:00] <OPU|Freeza-CII> but any way moogle has said and threatened to leave the OPU before but he always comes back'
[14:01] <OPU|Leviathan> and we hope he never leaves
[14:01] <OPU|Leviathan> its a shame when we lose anyone
[14:01] <OPU|Leviathan> yet it happens often
[14:01] <OPU|Leviathan> makes me sad!

I will not hesitate to delete it shall I be asked to.
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Offline Freeza-CII

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2005, 09:40:06 PM »
Well you people dont know the evidence and what moogle had didnt to get banned in the first place.  This poll kinda makes it look like you are trying to blame the ops of having to much power and many people are going to vote for the ban being lifted because alot thing that we do have to much power.  

And plus you all based a vote that is only on the present evidence that was presented.  We didnt really want to have to explain every little detail because we thought the community would scream out that we are just being assholes and just hate moogle so we are dumping him.

If you want evidence ill try to compile as much as i can and then you can see.  This might take a while tho seeming how i am the only op on most the time.

Offline zhukant

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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2005, 09:46:49 PM »
You may have considered making a poll to ban Moogle with all the evidence before actually doing it. Banning people is not something to be taken lightly. Serious matters require serious discussions. I thought we already learned that after the xfir incident?

Secondly, Moogle says you didn't warn him before banning him. I don't know if this is true, but it's out there.

You're welcome to post a new poll with more evidence, of course. But please, exercise your power with caution in the future. It's not called a community for nothing.
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Offline Freeza-CII

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2005, 09:57:01 PM »
We didnt take this lightly.  People dont need to be banned. but in moogles case it was warrented.  Please dont make this sound as if we banned him on a whim.

Dont bring up the Xfir crap this isnt the same.  This is not a Coupdetat. to remove a op because of power abuse over the forums.

I know I didnt warn him that he was going to be banned.  But we were feed up with all the crap that he was doing.

Ill present the evidence as soon as possible i am tired of defending the "OPS" Desicion to ban him.  The Evidence will be presented but i am telling you right now read it word for word dont just skim.  That is very important. might be a day or to for me to get it all.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 09:58:08 PM by Freeza-CII »

Offline HaXtOr

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2005, 10:56:50 PM »
Why is Freeza the only op who wants me banned?

Offline zanco

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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2005, 11:27:46 PM »
I don't really think he wants anybody banned. I just think he wants to justify why you have been banned.
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Offline Freeza-CII

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2005, 11:53:55 PM »
OK folks here is some reading for you i kept the intergity of the logs but having extra lines and no editing of any kind.

http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/Log...e-Evidence..txt
That is the Evidence that i collected on my desktop there might be more on my laptop but each log file is a bout 15 megs long.

http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/Logs/

There is evidence there.  Read all the evidence closely dont skim.  That is important that you understand every thing.  Thank you.

Also youll find a log of 3 of us OPs in the wrong I put that in there because it shows that we are a little mean some times.

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Why is Freeza the only op who wants me banned?

Quote
I don't really think he wants anybody banned. I just think he wants to justify why you have been banned.

First of all I am trying to get the poll to be a little more fair with all the evidence presented not just todays little blurb.  This is nothing personal moogle I am just doing my job as a OP and I am the only one to say any thing because I am the only one on at the moment.

There is a log on the laptop but i have not yet got it from my logs.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 11:54:42 PM by Freeza-CII »

Offline Leviathan

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2005, 07:49:23 AM »
Im sorry that it came to this. We never had to ban anyone before for more than a day from the main channel.

Offline Hooman

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2005, 02:22:38 PM »
First of all, we should NOT be putting up polls to ban people. It's not a popularity contest. If people are breaking the rules or causing trouble, they need to be dealt with. Having to make polls and wait for people to vote only undermines the powers of ops to deal with these situations. If we did that, we might as well not have ops.


Freeza is not the only op that wanted him banned, nor is it only the ops that want him banned. Most of the people who support the ban don't seem like like saying so publicly so they don't sound like assholes to everyone. Further, this isn't just one situation, but rather a long long string of events over a period of months. Moogle/Haxtor has already had many chances, and he's screwed them all up so far. Whenever this idea of evidence comes up, my first thought is I sure hope it's not me that gets stuck going through all the log files to find it all. You have no idea what a chore that would be to find all the times he's caused trouble. I'm pretty sure what Freeza has dug up is not all of it.

We've tried many times to deal with the situation, but all too often Moogle just isn't willing to listen. He especially seems to like trying to get around rules by playing with words. He'll find some statement that's a little too specific in it's wording, although the meaning is very clear, and he'll change that one little insignificant detail and keep being a pain in the ass. And he doesn't stop until you rephrase the rule he's breaking. Then he either finds another detail to be a pain in the butt about or complains about you "changing" the rules. And then when you finally do kick him or ban him, he screams "abuse of power" to no end.

Personally I think arguing about rules in that manner should be an instant ban. No serious site puts up with crap like that.


And for those of you concerned about keeping the community together, what about people he may be driving away? A lot of people don't like putting up with him, or his random abuse. People don't like the random swearing, insults, and violent sounding pokes/attacks. If we want to keep the community together, we need to keep this stuff out of the main channel.


Btw, the length of time he's been banned for has been exagerated. It's been at most a month, and probably less. Even still, he's not banned from all channels. (And I've noticed he was able to reply in this thread). As for when the ban will be lifted, it has been partially lifted a while ago already. If his behaviour remains good, it may be lifted in time. Although, some people feel he's already been given yet another chance he doesn't deserve with the partial lifting of the ban. Personally I'd rather not see the ban remain permanent, nor do I enjoy the fact that it's happened, but I still feel it's too soon to lift it.

 

Offline Sirbomber

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2005, 04:35:12 PM »
We're not voting to ban him, we're voting to unban him.  ;)
Yeah, I say he needs more time. Nothing personal.
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Offline leeor_net

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2005, 06:25:03 PM »
Forgive me if this has already been adressed, but I think it's an important point that a lot of people forget:

While we are still a community, there are Moderators and Administrators for a reason. They never have 'too much' power. I don't believe such a concept exists. While I do believe that there is the possibility of abusing ones power, I don't think that this is the case here nor am I in a place to really be a good judge of that. I wasn't there and there are always two sides to a story.

Personally, I believe that if a particular persons behavior is severe enough, warnings are not necessary. Again, in this particular case I'm in no position to make that determination.

In this case, I know from personal experiance that Moogle can sometimes be roudy and at times even beligerent. Does that warrant a ban? Maybe. I don't know. How long should the ban be? Again, I don't know.

I trust the decisions of our moderators and I believe that there is no injustice made here. Why should there be a need for evidence? 'Evidence' should only be presented if there's a clear abuse of power which as far as I can see here has not happened.

It can be frustrating to see the moderators constantly being questioned as to their decisions. With Moogle (sorry, Moog, but it's from experience), I don't even have to ask why he ended up banned. I can deduce from prior experience that he got beligerent and the Ops made an executive decision. Done. Was it right? I don't know. Is it my decision? Not really. Should I care? Unless it was an abuse of power, no. Not at all. I should help to support both the Admin's as well as the user who was banned (sometimes users are beligerent without even knowing it... like me!) And if it means that Moogle is banned for a week from #outpost2 so be it. It's just a week. (of course, I don't know the time frame so I'm just guessing).

I hope my point is clear and I also hope that I'm not coming off as an irritated ass this time...  :heh:  

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2005, 06:39:26 PM »
Moogles situation is a progressive thing.  He was given many chances he didnt change end of story.

I only presented evidence to make this poll fair.  Not just LET MOOGLE GO FREE.  With no explanation of why he was banned in the first place.  And judging by the responses in that short time it was clear people didnt know why he was banned.

I dont want to hear any more about Community Togetherness.  Its about the good of the community not having the most numbers we can get.

Offline HaXtOr

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2005, 06:43:32 PM »
Quote
If people are breaking the rules or causing trouble, they need to be dealt with.
f it.

We've tried many times to deal with the situation, but all too often Moogle just isn't willing to listen. He especially seems to like trying to get around rules by playing with words. He'll find some statement that's a little too specific in it's wording, although the meaning is very clear, and he'll change that one little insignificant detail and keep being a pain in the ass. And he doesn't stop until you rephrase the rule he's breaking. Then he either finds another detail to be a pain in the butt about or complains about you "changing" the rules. And then when you finally do kick him or ban him, he screams "abuse of power" to no end.

Personally I think arguing about rules in that manner should be an instant ban. No serious site puts up with crap like that.

How can I break rules that are constantly changeing over time?

I've asked for the rules to be listed several times.

But it seems that the rules only apply to non-ops. All the time I see ops breaking the rules, Why can't I?

Quote
And for those of you concerned about keeping the community together, what about people he may be driving away? A lot of people don't like putting up with him, or his random abuse. People don't like the random swearing, insults, and violent sounding pokes/attacks. If we want to keep the community together, we need to keep this stuff out of the main channel.

Me drive people away?

The only reason I swear or Insult is because I feel that I am under attack or being Insulted myslef.

I'm still quite hurt from the whole  monitor humping thing...

There are some things more offensive then what I say that are often the topic in the main chanel

Quote
Btw, the length of time he's been banned for has been exagerated. It's been at most a month, and probably less...

A day with out OPU feels like a week, a week is like a year...



 

Offline leeor_net

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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2005, 06:53:56 PM »
Quote
A day with out OPU feels like a week, a week is like a year...

Than quit acting up and acting out. It's not appreciated by anybody. You may think it's funny but there's a very clear line between being funny and instigating trouble. You're not stupid.

The simple phrase "grow up" comes to mind. I do have a good image that I should post up though.

Anyway, I need you to understand that I'm not targetting you. Actually, I'm not even remotely angry or annoyed with you right now. I have no reason to be. But you do need to understand that certain actions have certain consequences.

As far as rules are concerned, it's simple respect. Don't cross peoples' boundaries and you'll be fine. If you don't know where someones' boundaries lie, ask. I can't tell you how many times I've made mistakes but at least I take responsibility for my actions rather than throwing around the "abuse of power" phrase.

EDIT:

As an added note, I'm not voting in this poll because there's no option for "I'm leaving it up to the Admins".
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 06:54:52 PM by leeor_net »

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2005, 06:59:54 PM »
Rules change alot over time its just a fact of life.

Its because alot of the rules are common sence rules and you were told these rules serveral times and we didnt need any rules to be posted because we warn people.

ENSTATING THE RULES ON OPS IS ALOT HARDER THEN A NON OP!  This has been said serveral times so stop whining about that.

Yes moogle a few people have complained about you.  

That monitor coil thing was stopped a long time ago.

The insults and cussing is just trying to stop us from enforcing a rule on you that you dont like.  Plus there are documented times where you start cussing and saying foul things for randomness.  Yes there have been other thinks said but if you see the rest of the topic convo you would notice its a convo not a counter attack or a bit of rude randomness.

Quote
A day with out OPU feels like a week, a week is like a year...

I dont like that.  That seems like a attempt to gather pitty. that is my opinion.

You ban has only been almost a month and it is a partial ban.  Remember moogle it was a Full ban but we decided to give you a chance AGAIN.
 

Offline lordly_dragon

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Moogle's Bannedness
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2005, 09:46:15 PM »
first off all gentlement i got the solution to all your problem.. it is not fancy it is rather.... hum simple (prove of evidence dennis did it on me because he think i was a pain in the ass... actually we both fired up each other..) enyway here is the solution unban him and the one who wanted him to be banned... squelch him if he anoy you squelch him over time the one who dont want to listen to him wont listen to him and the one who care about him will be able to speak with him (thumbsup)  

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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2005, 10:34:40 PM »
The ops arent suppose to be ignoring people.  If he is ignored by the OPS he can break all the rules he wants and get away with it the partial ban is the simple way.  Also we have talk to him before with no positive results.  

Offline zigzagjoe

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« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2005, 01:07:13 AM »
yes, ignoring someone when ur a op is a no-no. for the all the s*** he's put up, hes damn lucky its ONLY a partial ban now. he should be kissing our feet sotospeak for only a partial ban, from a full ban(inc. forums and wiki).

so far, all the posts in this thread he has done are a attempt to gather pity.

concerning the thread topic; like hooman says this is not up for debate. leeor is completely correct in saying:
Quote
While we are still a community, there are Moderators and Administrators for a reason.

 If he behaves he may be let into the main channel over time. think of it as probation.

also something freeza posted a while ago: moogle-f***ingoff.mp3, 586kb; 5 minutes on TS.

This file has been edited to remove silence. (It was a ~48min file)

ill have to get into my logs when i get back to texas.

Offline CK9

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« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2005, 01:21:02 AM »
okay, this thread is too boring to read completely.  Listen, everyone, moogle was warned, and he was given several chances.  I have seen these outbursts, and i find them completely rediculous!  Unless he has done something against his word recently, moogle is currently in the process of redeeming himself.
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