Inertia Is A Property Of Matter.

[spirit1flyer]

untill we find a way to send in a probe, we will never know

lets see............ If we were to send a probe now, it would take over 2000 years to reach a black hole. We sent out a probe 19 years ago and its only now reaching half a light year away from us.  And even if we waited until it got there. It would still be another 60+ years before we get the nano second of info from the probe

And that would be traveling at the speed of light which would never reach earth. because of space junk and light from other stars. Now if we sent it through another way, it would take well over 500+ years to reach us.

all of this would be before its ripped apart heading into the black hole.

I say the amount of work we would have to do just to get the probe to reach it, and have it send the data back would be next to impossible to do. even with computers.

 

[Betaray]

you met steven hawking!! LUCKY!!

this is back to theritical physics, how do we know that it breaks down when matter approaches the speed of light? untill we can test it, all this will be speculation, you could be right, and theires an equal probability of me being right

now I have come up with another propusion system that would be capeable of near, (or if Im right, exceeding) the speed of light, but I beleave it would take a while to explain and its late so I dont feel like it lol

basicly though it nagates the liability of mass becomeing infonate and requireing infonate thrust to propell it by pulling the ship with gravitational fields instead of pulling it

again, the design is pretty complex and its late, I may explain it tomarrow, but right now family guy is on so I bid you adyu (I hate french)

[dm-horus]

I'm not quite convinced here. It sorta reminds me of some physics I've taken, but something doesn't seem quite right. You make it sound like all things would reach the PNR at the same velocity, even if they had different initial velocities. And what about objects that circle inwards? If they need to reach the speed of light (directly away from the PNR) to escape from it, then shouldn't their speed be greater than the speed of light when they reach the PNR if you counted their spiral movement around the black hole as well as their speed moving directly towards it? Or is it just that there is no "the" point of no return?

the problem is that nobody knows. we havent had the chance to throw a probe into a black hole to see where the particles go. from what i remember, the theory is that upon reaching the event horizon, infinite velocity, energy and heat is reached. therefore it doesnt matter what the initial conditions were. trying to explain why or what happens after this point is impossible. but i stick to the theory that "god does not play dice" and that there arent loopholes in the universe that allow matter (information) to be sucked in and annihilated (destroyed, no longer in existance). i subscribe to the idea that (as explained earlier) matter is either burned off before it has the chance to "get stuck" or the strings that compose matter/energy are stretched and distorted and due to causality, never actually reach the event horizon. anything beyond that point is anybodys guess.

[Betaray]

wich is exactly what my above post says lol

[spirit1flyer]

now I have come up with another propusion system that would be capeable of near, (or if Im right, exceeding) the speed of light, but I beleave it would take a while to explain and its late so I dont feel like it lol

the only system I know of would be a nuteron emiter which could reach 99.99% of lightspeed but I don't think it would never run out of fuel.

gravity drive?   that seems to be the newest thing talked about in space games and other such

[dm-horus]

you met steven hawking!! LUCKY!!

yup, i met him when i was like 7 or 8. when i was little, i stayed up all night to wait for carl sagans cosmos to come on PBS at 2 in the morning. my dad saw an ad in the newspaper saying that stephen hawking would be at the seattle opera house. he took me. there was an intermission in the middle and ppl got to go upstage to visit him. i was the only person there under 25. i was in a few publications for it, actually. since it takes him up to an hour to type what he wants to saw on his paddle, i took his deep stare as a handshake. i was honored.

this is back to theritical physics, how do we know that it breaks down when matter approaches the speed of light? untill we can test it, all this will be speculation, you could be right, and theires an equal probability of me being right

pretty much everything ive said tonight is hypothetical none of it can be proven outright, but like i said about the periodic table: typically if math predicts it, we will find it. and black holes were predicted long before we ever found one, but once we gained the ability to look were math predicted they would be, there they are. so ill say that i have faith that eventually we will discover some "golden theory" and it will all fall into place. i might not live to see it, but someday maybe.

now I have come up with another propusion system that would be capeable of near, (or if Im right, exceeding) the speed of light, but I beleave it would take a while to explain and its late so I dont feel like it lol

im recalling this from memory, but i believe the book i read about it in, the theory for trans-light speed travel was proposed as a way to not just meet the speed of light, but break it. once again, im not positive.

[dm-horus]

the only system I know of would be a nuteron emiter which could reach 99.99% of lightspeed but I don't think it would never run out of fuel.

gravity drive? that seems to be the newest thing talked about in space games and other such

i used to have a link to a NASA site that had design schematics for a gravity-drive starship. it had two spherical gravity wells lined up sequentially. the forward well produces positive gravity while the rear produces negative gravity (both are supported by current theories) and the ship "rides" the curve produced in spacetime like a surfboard rides on the cusp of a wave. since gravity is not limited by the speed of light, one would only have to worry about crashing into something.

the added benefit of gravity drives is that infinite or even near-infinite levels of energy/radiation are not required. the article stated that a mass only 1/3 that of the moon would be required. the difficulty would be in regulating the variance so that the ship "rode" on the precise cusp of the space curve (otherwise it would "miss" the wave just like a surfer on a board) and in creating a technology that would allow you to modify gravity output. other than that, it is sound.

[dm-horus]

now what im wondering is, what about time dialation? can anyone come up with an equasion or somthing for that?

theres lots of material on it, but to be honest i never made an effort to remember much other than the grandfather clause and the train thought experiment einstein proposed.

to me, most time dialation theory is mostly for the benefit of the human mind because if the effect were even slightly off normal, someone wouldnt live long enough to see the outcome.

(example: if you and a buddy were in space fighters and you decided to go into the black hole, from your view, you would immediately fall into the black hole and die, not considering whatever else happens afterward. but to outside viewers, your trip into the black hole would slow to the point that a second to you would take billions of years to ellapse to outside viewers. so in this case, at any one time, at least one party that would be needed to compare time periods would be long dead. either you are dead or anyone who knew you would be dead. if you take theory literally in that upon reaching the event horizon time would stop, you would never actually make it into the singularity. you would hover just outside it for all eternity.)

so considering that it is mostly for the benefit of human psychology, i choose to ignore it. in cosmological terms, periods in the order of billions of years are measured almost like nanoseconds (except for the birth of the universe which is counted in billionths of a second between periods).

[Betaray]

beleave me, this type of propusion has not been thaught up as far as I can tell

ok the gist is, you know how a gauss rifle works right? with rings of magnets accelatering a projectile

well think about, instead of rings of magnets, its a ring of trillions of subatomic blackholes, smaller than protons, because of Hawking radiation, they would disapate within microseconds, but before they do, they would enact a gravatational field much stronger than a single black hole and simmiler in dimention to the magnetic field for the gauss rifle, the net effect would be the equivalent of a gravity assist around a full size black hole, and with more rings, the gravity assist would become expanential

Like I said, unlike other propulsion systems, this would nagate the increase in mass because gravity would pull it at the same rate no matter what mass it is (thats the reasion why a golf ball and a bowling ball accelarate at the same rate)

how the ship would generate those rings would require a pretty detailed explanation of my theary of the degradation of subatomic radiation particles

of corse, like before, this is all assumeing that the known laws of physics hold, if they dont, than it is impossible to develop a relavant propulsion system untill the relavent information is givin

[Hooman]

Ugh, this is all starting to sound like nobody knows what they're talking about. Even the people who know what they're talking about probably don't know what they're talking about.  :blink:

So, unless anyone has a way for me to slow down time right now, I think I'll go continue studying for my midterm.  <_<
 

[Betaray]

well of corse not, this is all theritical physics, untill we get a chance to exparment with these things, we will not know

my designs are baised on current known physics, so if they stay true, there is no doubt that they would work, but you are right we have no idea, and there is no way we can know this without testing

[dm-horus]

Ugh, this is all starting to sound like nobody knows what they're talking about. Even the people who know what they're talking about probably don't know what they're talking about. blink.gif

So, unless anyone has a way for me to slow down time right now, I think I'll go continue studying for my midterm.

i agree. ive got a headache from thins thread i could give you links to lots of online resources that come from those who would know, but they all more or less end with "but..." so we're all pretty much in the dark. we know how matter orbis around a black hole but once it gets close enough, all bets are off.

all in all i think this was a good way to kill an evening!

[Freeza-CII]

(String theory requires at least 17 dimensions of space to work. Strings exist within all of them but we only see them interacting with at least 4).

Now a black hole is one thing for we have seen them or at least the effects of them.  Given that they havent clearly seen one (as far as i know).  But how in the hell are they going to prove that there are 17 other dimensions lol.  And from what I hear alot of people think the string theory is BS.  If I remember correctly a theory means it is a proven hyposis.  How in the hell can you prove other dementions

  The speed of light really has nothing to do with the power of the black holes gravity.  They just absorb enery and light is energy there for it cant escape.

[Eddy-B]

okay -- too much to read
i'm outta this thread :lol:

[Betaray]

I think its a good exercise for my brain, although I am more of an engineer rather than a physist

17 dimentions, I guess they would have to do some serious math to get that, I mean you know that they didnt just pick that number out of thin air

but all of this is speculation and we all know that, so lets just humer ourselves, this is a good time kill for me, and since Im on thanksgiving break, I need a good time kill

[Hooman]

That 17 dimension stuff isn't necessarily the way you think of it. It's like how you consider a complex number to be two dimensional. I'm guessing they just developed a mathematical model that has at least 17 degrees of freedom for it to work. Maybe they just call it dimension either because it sounds cooler and has that whole sci fi double meaning crap, or because that's what it was traditionally referred to as (maybe?).

If you study quantum computation, qubits are essentially four dimensional. It's not so much that they're some four dimensional object living in some weird space we can't comprehend, it's more that the mathematical model people have found to describe them is best thought of with essentially a vector of 4 real numbers (or 2 complex numbers, each of which has two real numbers associated with it).
 

[Betaray]

I thought the fourth dimention was time?

[Hooman]

Dimensions don't need to relate to real world concepts that are so easily grasped. Call time a 4th dimension if you will, but it doesn't relate to every model very well. That quantum computation idea used 4 dimensions without considering time. That was 4 dimensions just to represent the state of the system at any one given time. If you wanted to consider the progress of time in these calculations, it'd probably be added as a 5th dimension.

Think of it more like independent variables.
 

[Betaray]

like I said, im more of an engineer than a theritical physicist

ask me to design a single stage to orbit system, and Ill have a viable design in a week

but ask me about cosmic strings and such, and ill be stumped lol