Re-posted From Op3 Genesis Forums.

[dm-horus]

After reading the forum rules in OP3: Genesis I became aware that since my thoughts may not be well received, my posts may be removed. I am reposting a thread I made in the OP3 forum here so in case that happens, others will have the opportunity to review my thoughts.

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Ever since I first played Outpost 2 Ive held it as one of my all time greatest inspirations. Anyone who knows me personally knows that I have a habit of going for "night walks" every night. I walk around with a music device to get my mind off the stresses of the day. Often, I am thinking about OP2 or other ideas that I have. I am a fan of Carl Sagan and I tend to prefer scifi that is more 'sci' than 'fi' rather, I prefer accurate scifi rather than off the wall science fantasy or pseudo science. That is one of the aspects I like about OP2.

Now, Ive been involved with at least a dozen projects like this. Taking abandonware (or some other game that isnt being developed) and advancing the story or straight modding. The single biggest threat to any project such as this is getting carried away. Anyone who uses Homeworld2 and has downloaded Point Defense Systems Mod knows that once a group learns how to mod a game (or develop a new one) they usually start inserting units/structures/gameplay that doesnt advance the story or in fact, make any sense and only serves as a 'cool' factor. In the case of HW2: PDS mod, the early tech tree is ordered, makes sense according to the story and works well overall. But about 15 minutes into construction, you start noticing construction options that make little sense. Super battlecruisers that fill up the entire map and take only 3 minutes to build. Ships with firing ranges and rates of fire that make them virtually invincible with no penalty whatsoever (in terms of resources or build time). Most of the units with high firing rates have ammunition which causes next to no damage, making the fireworks shooting out of their hulls merely for decoration. Eventually the map becomes so filled with rounds coming from all directions that the game falls apart, looking more like a Windows 3.1 screen saver. It becomes obvious that as development continued the team lost focus and began incorporating features that did not mesh with the rest and lost all sense of consistency. You will also notice that all these new units have unit sounds made by people in their homes. In the regular game ships respond when you click them "Yes sir?" or "Standing by." When ordered they reply, "On my way." or "Show no mercy." Quick, short and to the point. No more needs to be said. But in the PDS mod you hear multisentance replies which sound more like recitals. The fact that theyve been recorded on cheap home PC microphones makes this even more irritating. Several units respond when ordered with "Make your bearing mark 3847.234 by 0181.327. Set starboard thrusters to full and prepare for attack." and "Bring all engines online and set thrust to full. Load foreward torpedo bays and charge all ion cannons to full." In the middle of a pitched battle I am issuing new orders to often dozens of ships, these mini recitals overlap until I can hear nothing but static and any audio information the computer is trying to give me (like my mothership is being attacked or resources have been exhausted) are inaudible. This is the newest example of how a few inconsistencies can amplify an amateurish attempt into a waste of HD space.

I fear that this may happen to any continuations of the OP2 story. Getting carried away by adding "cool units" will kill the project. Thinking that having a couple units with 8 turrets on them will make up for lack of story will kill the project. Remember, Outpost 2 has always been story driven. This game was made back in a time when graphics where merely 'representations' of objects that the story was describing. I do not like the way current 3D projects are going as they are merely copying OP2 art to a 3D engine. Shouldnt we be presenting how the game would look had the OP2 developers began making this game today? That is how I look at it precisely. I envision the aim, the goal, the direction the original creators wanted to take and I think "How can I make that happen using todays technology?" The answer is accuracy, realism and consistency.

Example: Reading dev documents and from the game itself, Lynx are basically larger versions of something that looks a lot like current Mars Rovers. Google for pics of the mars rover. Look at its wheels and suspension. Same number of wheels as Lynx. Same general design. Game developers simply didnt have the technical capacity to accurately convey it. In a 3D engine, where we can show things off, we should do nothing less than the best that is possible. (I will be submitting some 3D renders of prototype Lynx designs in the near future as examples of where Id like to see this game headed)

I will be making further posts in this forum on my ideas and observations. I think it is my responsiblity to help guide this project. I may not have experience in the actual technical construction of new games, but I know people and I know why projects fail. Ive had my hands in enough to know that you have to be willing to sacrifice that "cargo truck with 16 trailers attached to it" in order to advance the story which is the ultimate goal. I hope everyone here will take my ideas into consideration. Good games are remembered by how well story reflects gameplay and vice versa. The only game that succeeded without this is Total Annihilation and I think it lies in a category of its own. That shouldnt be the type of thing this project aims for. Instead aim for an evolution of OP2, not a whole new paradigm. The goal here is not to reinvent video games.

Note: I do not think the mods of these forums have the right to lock, pin or delete any post based on whether or not they agree with its contents. I hope other mods will take a serious look at this practice.

[Stormy]

We are not going to let this be an 'ameture' type approach. That is why I (we) STRESSED this be as coordinated as possible. We have people who are very talented in their field, and I feel like you don't believe in what WE ALL CAN DO as a community. Now, I think I'm getting a bit personal, but still, we are going for a commercial level of quality-- Not an amature 10 year old type of dealie, If something isn't done right. It is redone or Fixed and will be as good as or better than it was origonally planned. We have the majority of the units planned out and they follow along with the story and aren't in there for a "cool" factor.

Trust us and Don't worry! It will work out fine!

stormy :op2:

[leeor_net]

I think, sir, that you need to read the ENTIRE COLLECTION OF POSTS before you go around thinking you know every damn thing about the project. I am reacting like this because stormy, myself and the rest of the team have been put down and told off and questioned for over a month before people seemed to get excited.

You seem to have just walked in on the scene and now you think you're boss. Grow up and get a life.

As far as keeping to the Outpost story, I assure you that I am very much into keeping with the story. I remember when I got OUTPOST, the first game of the series. Hate to break it to you but OP2 deviated a lot from OUTPOST.

Granted, OP2 was a great game and I have all intentions of moving the story along (as do the rest of us). Just because you think that a bunch of kids that hacked up another game and f***ed it all up doesnt mean that the same thing is going to happen.

If you really think that you're going to walk in here and take by storm everything and you're going to create your own game that's 'perfect', you are sorely mistaken. There are FOUR PROJECTS that have had people just like you that thought that they had the greatest idea in the world... look where they are now. NOWHERE. They've all been abandoned. OP3:GEN is the only OP3 project that's actually survived and is not only surviving but is also thriving.

If you REALLY want to make productive suggestions, read the ALL OF THE POSTS in BOTH forums before you go around warning everybody that our project may be a disaster in the makings.

And if you want to help with things, fine. I have no problem with that. In fact, I welcome new comers. The problem here is that you're saying this that and the other thing without having any of the facts. We havn't released a lot of information because 1) we don't HAVE a lot of information to release and 2) we don't want to be overwhelmed with "This isn't right" and "You should add this" and "you're all idiots". So either present myself or stormy with a list of qualifications that would convince us that you'd be productive member of the team or deal with it. You want to put in your suggestions, great. Make a post in the Suggestions forum. Add your two cence to various other ideas that have been brought up.

But DO NOT go posting something like you just did in TWO PLACES because you think that stormy, myself, TH300 or Zanco will go deleting it. It's asanine and it's insulting.

As an added note, I've been involved in more projects than you'll probably ever be involved in in your life. I've had a LOT of experience in game design/development and the last thing I need is someone who I've never seen before telling me that I don't know how to design games. I've done many studies in the field and I hate to break it to you but I'm easily an expert in the subject. I don't like being stood up by an arogant kid like yourself.

AND, it is not your sole responsibility to make sure that a project that you have NO TIES TO is done right or not. You want to make sure it's done right, post your suggestions, help with some content, join the team. You are not the end-all authority on the OUTPOST series and you're just going to have to get that in your head.

Good day to you.

[lordly_dragon]

i also think that you dont know how hard it is to render sound corectly ... i speak from experience those are a pain to make clear even with the best hardware possible oh and by the way... from myself: man if your so brillant to complain why dont you do your own game ?


no offence at you but at your tough (thumbsdown)  

[leeor_net]

That's my point exactly. If I'm not completely utterly wrong, I was to understand as per our last conversation that you don't think you'll be part of the Computer game design/development industry because you didn't think you had the skills.

And, if that's the truth, what the hell are you doing telling me what I'm doing wrong and how you think I'm going to make bad design choices? You don't know me, you don't know my experiences and you have NO CLUE about the downright passion I have for the OUTPOST series. You're not the only OP lover out there.

Now I'm done being angry. I do have to hand it to you, horus, you're the first person on OPU who's gotten me to get really pissed off. Annoyed I've been but angry, this is a first.

Note: I do not think the mods of these forums have the right to lock, pin or delete any post based on whether or not they agree with its contents. I hope other mods will take a serious look at this practice.

You do have a point there and I'm glad that we agree on at least one thing for sure. However, in my entire experience here that has never happened and I don't believe it will happen based on a content disagreement.

[Stormy]

Oh, and do I see 3 instances of this same post? I think I do, Oh well, if I'm seeing things let me know

stormy :op2:

[Hooman]

First of all, don't double post. Choose one forum and stick with it. IF your post is deleted and you feel it was unfair, then you may consider posting again elsewhere. Not before. Just save a copy of your post to a text file if you're worried about losing it.

Secondly, think about WHY you're worried about your post being deleted. If it's downright insulting then it probably should be. Granted, you seem to be expressing some valid concerns here, but you seriously need to work on your people skills. And that coming from me is pretty bad.


As for your claim OP3 is just taking OP2 graphics and making them 3D, I really have to question your logic here. From a technical perspective, you just CAN'T put 2D graphics in a 3D game. It just doesn't work. There would be no reasonable way to accomplish this. If you check out their work so far, you'd see they are building their own 3D models of buildings. They are doing this from scratch, based on graphics from earlier games. How else are they supposed to do this? If OP3 is going to be a sequel of OP2, you'd expect the graphics to be highly related in terms of the appearance of buildings. I see no reason why a tokamak in OP3 shouldn't resemble a tokamak from OP2. It just wouldn't make sense otherwise.

I'd also like to point out there is a thread for unit suggestions. All the "bad cool" ideas get shot down there. If you're worried about them, that's where you should go to suggest against them. By this, I of course mean make a case against adding them to the game, and not just call people suggesting them idiots. Not all suggestions are made with the expectation that their unit will be added. Sometimes they seem to be there to spark further ideas, and sometimes people just want to suggest something for fun.

Reading dev documents and from the game itself

What dev documents? From OP2 or from OP3. If they're from OP2, then perhaps you'd like to share them with us? And if they're from OP3, I can't fathom why you'd be bringing this up. As for your suggested design, go ahead and submit them. I'm sure they'd have loved the attention. But keep it mind, it would only be taken as a suggestion. They are the ones putting in all the work, and they are ultimately the ones who will decide what is done.

I think it is my responsiblity to help guide this project.

I fail to acknowledge you have any right or responsibility to guide the project. You have done no work on this project and your post has only served to demotivate the people who have done work on it. Yes, I can understand worry of a failed project. They've gotten enough about that already. Nobody wants the dissapointment of another failed project. People have already expressed their concerns about another failed OP3 project, and these people are still willing to give it a try and are going strong. This sequel is something people want. I can understand your concern about destroying the idea of Outpost/Outpost2, but remember we are all Outpost fanatics here. Nobody wants the idea of Outpost to be destroyed, and people are going to make sure that doesn't happen.

So if you also want to make sure the project goes well, then know your place and make suggestions accordingly.
 

[leeor_net]

Thank you, Hooman, for putting into words what I'm just not able to do right now.

I've gone from being really angry to needing some help from the rest of the community. My reposnes to DM-Horus are becoming a LOT more agressive and I'm about to lose it. So I'm going to leave the handling of this to you guys. You've been a big help up until now and I don't expect that to change.

Again, thanks Hooman for making my thoughts so very clear.

[BlackBox]

Note: I do not think the mods of these forums have the right to lock, pin or delete any post based on whether or not they agree with its contents. I hope other mods will take a serious look at this practice.

Actually, we do have the right to lock or delete people's topics/posts. You agreed to this when you registered for the boards.

I'll have to agree with Hooman and leeor on this one.

Even if you think a project won't succeed, stop trying to shoot it down.

You've been registered for less than 2 weeks and already you're telling people how to run THEIR projects? If you ask me, this is an easy way to make enemies around here fast.

You need to stop doing this now. If you continue to do this, your posts WILL get deleted, and yes, more people WILL get angry at you.

I'm sure the other moderators will agree with me on this one.

-- op2hacker

[Sirbomber]

Horus: Could I suggest that you suggest, rather than demand? They do have a point, and I was there when you said you were going to work on your own project and wanted nothing to do with Genesis.

Everyone else: I think he's right in saying it's his responsibility to help guide the project. It's ALL our responsibility to guide the project. We all have to guide it through input, advice, and constructive criticism. Saying that an idea is stupid isn't constructive. But saying that an idea is, in your opinion, a bad one, and stating way, is constructive criticism, and project guidance. While it isn't his job to be the project leader, he can guide it through suggestions like the rest of us.

[Stormy]

Everyone else: I think he's right in saying it's his responsibility to help guide the project. It's ALL our responsibility to guide the project. We all have to guide it through input, advice, and constructive criticism. Saying that an idea is stupid isn't constructive. But saying that an idea is, in your opinion, a bad one, and stating way, is constructive criticism, and project guidance. While it isn't his job to be the project leader, he can guide it through suggestions like the rest of us.

Now when you put it  THAT way, thats EXACTLY the type of leadership we need from all the community members. They way you put it horus is like you are the project leader or something and you are bossing us around.

I hope Everyone learns from this incident, and I also hope that it never happens again.

-stormy

[leeor_net]

I am always open for suggestion but when I hear a demand and when I have a conversation with someone who says that they won't be going proffesionally into a field that I am already a part of and then AN HOUR LATER post comments about bad game design this that and the other thing and demand this and put such a demeaning fasion on 'comments' and say essentially that they are the Outpost series expert, I go into a "I'm not listening to you" mode and it takes a VERY long time to get me to value the opinions of some who's offended me in such a way again.

Wow, that was a long sentance but I'm tired so it may be clear and it may be clear. I dunno. goodnight all.
 

[Betaray]

I think the preamble of the constitution is longer

but yea I agree, but I think we got the point accross with all these posts, hopefully he has learned his lession, and we can go on with our lives, without flamebaiting on eather side

[Leviathan]

Horus thank you for taking the time to post.

[dm-horus]

Oooo. Ouch, guys. I dont remember making any demands. If you dont like what I have to say then ignore it. Dont take it personal. I have every right to question what youre doing. But keep in mind that Im not really making any accusations. Im simply saying that from my experience, most attempts fail. Ive been an OP2 fan since '97 and Ive seen projects come and go. Im tired of being disappointed after working with dev teams for 2 years only to watch the project crumble because someone got tired of skinning or some other thing. I guess what I wanted to ask was, whats different about this one? If youre making it commercial quality then great. Just dont drop the project. Since so many people have taken what I said personally, its obvious that this project is very close to your hearts. That is a good thing. It means this isnt just something youre putting together half-assed and can easily drop. Thats all I wanted to know.

[If its double posted, delete it. Dont complain.]

I have every right to investigate and question the project so please dont take what I say so personally. I dont mean to create a firestorm. I didnt write any flamebait into what I wrote, I just wanted to be thourough and get all my thoughts out at once so nobody had to wonder about my point. Some people obviously missed it. Just think about it for a second... we're trying to attract people to this project. If and when this community starts reaching out to grow, a lot of people will be coming on here asking tougher questions than Ive asked. Afterall, we're the ones who have to prove ourselves (and our projects) to them. If you cant convince people already in the community how can you expect to convince them? Im not being a jerk here, but seriously guys. When OP3's lid gets blown open is then the REAL work will start. Critics will be coming at you left and right, especially if the forums grow in the manner I suspect they will. Youve gotta be prepared for it. So please, dont take offense. I apologise if I worked my thoughts in such a way to inflame you. Stormy, Ive got more faith in you and your team than you might realise.

Also, dont insult me. Play nice.

[Leviathan]

Ive been an OP2 fan since '97 and Ive seen projects come and go. ... I guess what I wanted to ask was, whats different about this one?

Yea many projects have come and gone. I think the the main difference with this one than the ones which have come before is that we have Leeor working on it, he realy can get the job done, hes not someone who wants to make a game (like me) and has to learn to code/create for the first time etc. Leeor realy will be able to pull thru on this, its gonna be some time, but time should not be a issue. We should be very thankfull that he and other are doing work on projects.

[leeor_net]

Thank you, Leviathan for your compliments but I do believe that stormy, TH300 and Zanco also need to be recognized for their efforts. After all, Zanco and Stormy were the initial thinkers of the idea. As soon as I heard the notion of a new project in which I could inject some of my experience I hoped and board and TH300 soon followed. (Gamercd, I havn't forgotten about you! I'm just not sure where you fit in to all of this!)

Horus, now that I'm far more calm than I was last night, you are indeed correct about being insulting. I stepped out of line just as much as I believed you did. As far as I'm concerned right now, it's truce and I have no lingering ill feelings.

I do appreciate your interests in potential involvement with this project and I DEFINATLY understand the feeling of a failed project (believe me, I've seen FOUR attempts at an OP3 and they've all gone completely dead, even ones that promised a revival). I, as you and every member of this community, am a huge fan of the OUTPOST series. I remember when I first got OUTPOST 1 and how much I loved it (hence OUTPOST: Missing In Action). I also remember drooling over the idea of Outpost 2 and following for the year leading up to its release.

So we're all in the same boat.

As far as the ideas and whatnot going into this game, I don't think it was fair for you to come to various conclusions without reading any of the threads or only skimming through them. THere's a lot of available information you just need to find it.

For now, tahtah

[Stormy]

Gamerscd was brought into the project by.... Th300 or... me .... Which of it I don't remember. In fact, it may be Zanco!

I might have another stunning model for you guys too (this is my toughest one yet)

[Betaray]

whats it of?

[Stormy]

A human

Along with a particle system for a "special explosion". of what? I will not name that at this time

[Leviathan]

Well with out Leeor the project couldnt happen, Of chorse im glad that other ppl r working on it, thats a given.

[Stormy]

I'd like to add onto Levi's post "without ANYONE this couldnt' happen"
. Really, Leeor and I are doing a lot already, and many others are about to get working on a lot. I mean a LOT! We have time though, and lots of it

stormy :op2:
 

[leeor_net]

I have mapped out the development schedule. By December, 2006 there will be a fully-playable demo... possibly even an Alpha or Beta version available.

[Betaray]

kick a$$!!!!

[Harky]

I dont think Horus really stated to do this and dont do this.. he just said this has happened to em alot b4 watch out.. hes just offering advice.. but i've heard some things... maybe rumours maybe not.. about op3 that seem pretty flakey going along wiht the op2 story so i donno some doesnt really connect, or make sense wiht the op2 storyline.. and i dont wanna create a huge fight again so i guess i'll only tell stormy or others on the op3 project if the ask me..