Iraq War Thread Continued

[OP2Patriot]

I'll find the real statistic thats current, and unless there's been a terrorist war in israel, that statistic is wrong. How can you believe it?

Israel Defense Forces statistic. Of course, if you accuse me of propaganda, we will get nowhere.

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

Well we aren't getting anywhere anyway, thanks to you! Reply at Ez's forums! cause that's where the whole thread is. I'll reply to your thing in EZ's board.                    

[OP2Patriot]

Reply here or debate ends. In that case, I would declare a victory in your unwillingless to debate at a place that I'd rather debate, other than that slow Outpost Congregation.

---philipu2001                    

[Betaray]

WILL YOU GUYS CUT THIS OUT ALREDY!!! We are in Bagdad!!!  the regime is practly topled, THERES NOTHING LEFT TO DEBATE ABOUT!!!                    

[OP2Patriot]

We were debating about Israel, shift in topic. Yes, it is over. I have another report of possible weapons of mass destruction. What may be plutonium was found is Iraq. I think it is probably plutonium, because US engineers found it, and the US practically invented Plutonium. Hopefully no dirty bombs got shipped to Syria or Iraq. I am still right about the WMDs.

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

Jesus, man. You declare your the winner if I don't reply. What a freaking pussy, you won't go to the other thread and reply to me. Your the one that wants to bring the debate here and try to force me to post here, which has worked, and then you say that I pussy out! If anything your the one who would pussy out by moving the thread without me complying.

Anyway, if you want to be declared the winner of this debate. Then your the winner, I'll crown you myself.

Lets start the debate.

The war isn't over cause the iraqi's still have control over the norhtern cities. And we'll never get closure till they get saddam and his damn sons, but we know how good the US is at getting individuals. I wonder, how are the gonna change the topic from saddam to whatever?

Yeah, you might be right about the WMD's but your still wrong about the intent. They have WMD's and as a country they should be allowed to, (debate that too if you want), but you miss the point. They never even used them against the allied forces. I can only think of 2 things, they never had the intent to use'em or they just don't have the ability to use them. Use your intellegence to give me another reason.

How can you say the US practically invented plutonium? I don't get it. Plz explain to a newb.

I think you meant to say that you hope no dirty bombs get shipped to syria or iran. I just hope that no terrorism happens in the continental US. That would suck.


                   

[OP2Patriot]

Every country should have WMDs? Only responsible nations should be allowed to have them. Saddam is dead. The regime is scattered. The remnants of the Iraqi military are fighting for themselves, not a regime anymore. The war is practically over, there is no way a draw can develop, and we have achieved most of the conquering tasks.

They never even used them against the allied forces. I can only think of 2 things, they never had the intent to use'em or they just don't have the ability to use them. Use your intellegence to give me another reason.

You haven't heard, the special ops confused the enemy and prevented them from using the weapons. There isn't that many details available, because they used tactics which they may want to use again.

The US practically invented plutonium. We know how to make it and how to use it. We even had a monopoly, until some Soviet spies got the secrets of nuclear weaponry.

We have the Department of Homeland Security working to prevent terrorist attacks. Terrorists can succeed with a plot, but the question is, will they succeed?

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

Ha, I don't think the special ops are that good. When the war just started, he could have used his short-range missiles and put some chemicals on them and launched them at the invading troops. He could have just saved them till the allies got to the gates of baghdad, and by thta time they'd be ready to use. It's a political question, saddam would have told his military guys what to do, and they wouldn't act without his authority. Obviosly he pussied out and ran away, what I'm trying to say is that he left them his last commands, probably not to use them. Anyway, you'll just think of some bull thing, so why didn't he launch some scud missiles into israel? I thought he hated israel like all the other arab countries?

Who exactly 'invented' plutonium? I don't think it was some guy that was working for the US or even in US interest. But, I'm not sure.

I don't know how you can get so much comfort from the homeland security, all they do is kick the muslim students out of the country.                    

[OP2Patriot]

Why else are the called special ops? They are the best of the best, and they are really good. There were some missiles found with chemical warheads that were ready to fire, but never were. Here is some more reasons why those WMDs may have not gone off:

1) Bush announced that any person setting off a WMD would be treated as a war criminal.
2) Vietnam. We eventually pulled out for political reasons, so Saddam may have figured that we would eventually turn back in this war.
3) Saddam may have been lied to. In Hitlers last days, his top cronies told him that Germany was winning, and had Hitler give commands for imaginary armies. There is the possibility that Saddam believed that Iraq was really hurting America, like the disinformation minister of Iraq told us. Saddam, figuring he was going to win, saw no good reason to tilt his hand.
4) Saddam's command structure was weak. Thousands surrenduring to coalition forces and the bombings may have damaged the command structure, by removing his top guys, making it near impossible to issue the chemical weapons order.
5) Special ops. My pick, because the military said so.

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

Thats 5 reasons, you have a good brain. Well I don't have time to fight about them now. But his command structure is good, not weak, because it's made up of his family and close friends. The 'thousands' surrendering are from the ordinary army. And the rest are pretty weak reasons too, cause anyone knows if the US is gonna get you, your screwed.                    

[OP2Patriot]

There are several articles out there on the special ops's involvment. Newsweek had an article on it, I heard. Anyway, I am about to say something that will make the 22% of the country's people that don't support war or Bush heads explode:

George Walker Bush is a genius. By defeating Iraq in three weeks, other 'countries' of the axis of evil are willing to talk. They saw what we did. They saw the statue fell. They know they will pay if they do not comply with US demands. Iran is willing to open relations with the US. 70% of Iran wanted relations with the USA, according to an election poll. Then the people in power then tryed to kill as many of those 70% as possible. North Korea will talk with the USA and the PRC.

Now we have Syria. First, they got oil from Iraq illegally in exhange for Syria providing Iraq with some of those weapons of mass destruction. We recently cut off the pipeline feeding oil into Syria. New-er-bie, do not wine. Syria already has plenty of oil without Iraq's oil being included in the equation. Syria is showing no signs of complying, and they will probably be next, considering talks with North Korea goes good, and North Korea obeys the terms of the treaty that will be struck. (Communists have this thing about not obeying treaties when they have the chance to get away with it)

And you know what, a lot of the Bathe party people who went to Syria, we ain't gonna find 'em there. They've gone to to France! France is helping the Batheos, so that the Batheos won't blab out what France has done for Iraq, unbeknownst to the American public. That doesn't surprise me so much, but if France doesn't give up those Batheos, we should go in there, for the third time! How can a country we saved three times hate us is a bit amazing. They didn't play that big of a role in the American Revolution, other than sending over weapons and a little men. The only major thing was that they blockaded Yorktown so that Cornwallis would not escape, thus making him surrender.

Summing up, Syria and France must comply with US demands or else. Some say that when we were attacked on Black Tuesday (9/11), it was the beginning of WWIII. This may become that, if those that back up terrorism do not step down and give up. We will have no tolerance of any anti-American terrorism in the making or being carried out.

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

Why would I whine about syria? Show me where I whined man or shut up.

As for Syria what are you gonna say that the ruler is oppressive and the people need to be 'liberated'?

The iraq war in 3 weeks? In only 3 weeks! Wow, what an accomplishment, considering everyone one of those damn 'experts' thought that it would be over way quicker.

Bush is a genius. He got the whole country off the sucky economy and osama. 2 birds with 1 stone, can't argue that, he's a damn genius.

And the axis of evil countries saw the statue fall? Are you kidding me? Is this suppose to symbolize something, damn american propeganda, making mountains out of molehills.

"Communists have this thing about not obeying treaties when they have the chance to get away with it"
Yeah, so does Israel. Now you go whine about it. Again,  I love how you post stuff against communists but you don't even see that israel your ally does it too. So your a hypocrite.

Okay heres the good part.

When did the US save France 3 times? I'm stupid right so plz tell me.

This proves your hypocrisy/double-standard, jeez man. You say that france should be thankful to the US after all this time for saving it. Well, why aren't you grateful to the Frenchies for helping the US in the american revolutions. You won't argue with me that it was the most important war, right? Why aren't you grateful to the people that helped give america freedom? All they did was send some men and some ships right? Yeah, but your good at downplaying thier part. If they didn't blockade the coast so Cornwallis couldn't escape then he would have left and the war wouldn't have been won so easy. After they got him, the US won. So in reality the Frenchies did help the US a lot, not cause of the men they sent or how many ships, but how the used them. But you don't care about that right, it's all numbers to you.

And france dosen't hate america. Why would you say something like that. They were against the war. The US just made a big deal about it cause they vetoed the UN resolution. Phil, the US was 'whining', I bet you don't know how many times the US used it's veto power? Of course you don't, and you don't care.
                   

[OP2Patriot]

As for saving France three times, I said, "if France doesn't give up those Batheos, we should go in there, for the third time." There have been two times before that. WWI, where the Germans were able to swing in their armies from the Russian front over to France. America got in before the Germans were going to breakthough. WWII, our troops were vital to the liberation of France in that war. Hitler already had England in a corner.

The iraq war in 3 weeks? In only 3 weeks! Wow, what an accomplishment, considering everyone one of those damn 'experts' thought that it would be over way quicker.

Bush said at most 5 weeks, when the war started. Who are those "experts" you speak of? Are they the armchair tacticians broadcasting for the media? Three weeks is very quick. With the war over, more people are willing to invest, improving the economy. (You do remember how well buying was at the beginning of the war?) The only invasion I can think of at the moment that was quicker is the invasion of Poland, which lasted nine days.

Yeah, so does Israel. Now you go whine about it. Again, I love how you post stuff against communists but you don't even see that israel your ally does it too. So your a hypocrite.

Are you going to personally stop Israel? Who is going to enforce those treaties you speak of? See, the UN is too weak to back up those. Israel seems to be your only big point. Israel is breaking those treaties for their survival. Israel's Prime Minister has stated that a Palestini state is an enivitibility. Did you know that, or where you readind something else? Let's point the stick at Syria, and their illegal occupation of Lebanon.

Now for the French. Let me see here, now if we went on an "you owe me" basis, then France owes us one. Who said I wasn't grateful for their involvment in the revolution? You must be very mad to call me names. Now for a fair exchange, I shall call you ignorant. I meant the French admistration hating us for the war.

The UN is of little significance for now, and should be abolished. What has the US vetoed? I bet you don't keep tally on what President Bush has vetoed. Are you so busy with keeping score for your side, you fail to see how well my side is doing?

I have been right more often than you, new-er-bie. I was right about the WMDs. I was right about the Al-Queda link to Saddam. I was right about the war will be short. What were you right about when it came to the war? If you have been proven wrong, how do you know you are not wrong now?

---philipu2001

                   

[new-er-bie]

Okay Phil your right and I'm wrong. No one really proved the iraqi-al qaeda link. Just some US propeganda, and they didn't find any WMD's. They only found chemicals that they thought were weapons, but could have been pesticides. I never found out what they really were. If your right all the time, give me a link to a source so you can prove your  point.

I bring up israel because it violates UN treaties, and even if you think the UN sucks, it's still there and it's still important. Don't go saying that communists do it when a country you support does it, thats gay. And I know that sharon actually said some good stuff. We'll just have to see what happens.

Israel seems to be my only big point, duh its to prove you wrong. Okay lets go back to syria. What should I say, you say something and I'll say the opposite, OK?

Yeah I'm ignorant, I already know that. At least I'll admit it.

The UN only becomes useless when countries think that they can do anything they want. They don't think about it and just do things in haste. The UN represents the intellegence of the world, I guess intellegence should be abolished.

I don't mean to call names, It just comes out. Plus it's still a piss off that you forced me to this forum! So many people were/still are at the old forum. Divinding the op2 community in half.
                     

[OP2Patriot]

Articles time:

The economy: http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/newswire/2.../rtr942006.html (Forbes)
Al-Queda link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ws/khodada.html (PBS)
http://www.observer.co.uk/focus/story/0,69...,591439,00.html (UK Guardian)
http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-pa...752C1A9679C8B63 (NY Times[You may need to register])
Weapons of Mass Destruction: http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020916-28573872.htm (Washington Times)
http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:HUnpe...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/scud_info/scud...1en172/iraq.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl...aphic022298.htm
http://www.canada.com/national/features/ir...2F-332ECED238DE

I got more from where that came from. Want more? Dividing the OP2 community in half? Oh no, you had to continue the debate here? BOO HOOOOO HOOOOOO. For goodness sake, get over it! I prefer this place because it is too slow over at Ezekel's. You are upset BECAUSE I MADE YOU DO IT. You didn't have to do it. It takes me one minute to load the home page there. Two minutes to load a forum. Three minutes to load a topic. Four minutes to post. I actually timed all this. It is a major inconvience for me to post over at Ezekel's forum.

See, here's the problem with UN treaties, no one is going to enforce them. US treaties will be enforced. Who would you prefer. The UN does not represent the intelligence of the world, but the 'intelligence' of the world who are actually a part of it. FDR started it, but us conservatives are against it. The UN is a front for the New World Order.

I listen and watch liberal and conservative news. Do you, new-er-bie? Have you ever listened to Rush Limbaugh? Nah, you'd be too bored about his proof that the Democrats are stupid. You couldn't stand the overwhelming hard-core right wing fundamentalist 'propaganda.'

I was stating the communinsts don't try to keep treaties when not being watched. I did not say that they were the only ones to do it, and I said the communist remark in parenthesis, as to not make it a major point.
 
Israel, they are doing what is necessary for their survival, when they didn't make the first move. A few or so wars had the Arab countries attacking Israel. Israel is more of a victim than Palestine, and act in the best interest of their country, unlike dictators who invade countries for money and resources.

Do you want more, because I got more.

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

Wow thats a lot of articles, I'll read them later, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

People would follow UN treaties if countries like the US didn't go around vetoing stuff immorally just cause it's thier ally. The UN would have more power if people listend to it and tried to compromise. Phil its like the US, the people give the government power. The president and stuff can be elected if they do a good job, or they'll lose if they suck. The government can't just kick people out of the country cause they feel like it. The UN's like that, the countries give it power. The UN can kick people out of it's organization and put sanctions on them and other stuff. But I'll agree with you that the UN isn't perfect, no one is. It sucks because it's so easy to manipulate. Like in the security counsil there was like a couple of poor african countries, and when it comes time to vote for war and stuff, do you think that they're gonna vote in the US's favor? Of course, who would risk losing US aid? And what's this whole "New World Order"? That you keep going on about.

No Phil I can't say that I watch liberal and conservative news, or Rush Limbaugh. Why are you so gay with that guy? Phil almost all the news companies are a for-profit bussiness, and if you don't know money runs the world, and whoever pays gets what they want. And everything can be said as propeganda. Anything can be bent and switched up to reflect someones view. News is propeganda, maybe unintentionally, maybe light propeganda but theres still some bias, or whatever. Can you believe that? Or do I suck at saying it. The only person that I would every really believe about anything is someone who's a first hand witness to it, but I would much rather be there in person to ever talk about it. Do you think that we know half the stuff that goes on in iraq? Or even the world? Were locked up in our little bubbles, we can't see it all man.

I don't have a problem with israel, it's not a bad country. But the fact is that the prime minister did say some good stuff about a palestinean state. But the fact also is that he's a war criminal. I don't think that's cool. And why would the arabs invade israel to get any resources? Man thats the dumbest thing I ever heard. They don't have bull there, maybe a tiny bit of any resource, but other than that it sucks. Do you think the british would have given them a 'good' peice of thier empire?

Propeganda is when the allies go into bagdad and topple the statue, thats supposed to be 'symbolic'. What I wanna know is, if they're so happy they got liberated why did only a couple hundred people come out in a city of like 5 million people? Of course you wouldn't have thought that, cause all the news camera's were focused in really close so that it would look like there werre many people there. Someone even told me that those people cheering werre iraqi resistance guys flowin in by the pentagon and that special ops restricted the area, so it was all just a show. I don't know if thats real, and I don't think the US is that gay, but who knows?                    

[OP2Patriot]

Only a couple hundred came out, because the rest still feared Saddam. You give me too little credit. In a recent poll conducted by the media, 56% of Americans want the US out of the UN. The New World Order is out to conquer the world. They've been in operation for the pass two hundred years or so. They create crisises where they can pass some of the policies they want. One of their goals is to cut the world's population down to less than a 1/2 billion. Has to do with "purifying," the human gene bank. Adolf Hitler himself was a member of the New World Order. Thankfully, he did not suceed in conquering the world. You need to read more about it, since the New World Order is something you seem to know little of.

The toppling of Saddam's statue is symbolic in its own way. It sends a message to the world, do not mess with America. Why wouldn't special ops cheer at the toppling of the statue? Am I out of some loop or something? However, the Syrians, unlike Iran and North Korea, are not willing to talk with America. This is partially due to Syria being run by the Bathe party. They give Palestini terrorists the bombs they use to terrorize the Israeli population. Oh no, you are likely to reply to the last sentence I type. Israelis at young ages, are taught what to do in cases of a chemical attack, or other terrorist activities. The Palestinis are taught to blow up Israelis. Anyway, new-er-bie, what do you think we should do with the remnants of the Al-Queda network? (Sudden change of topic I know, but I need to hear your opinion, so I know how to treat you further of the topic of terrorism, with your, "Bush Doctrine gives excuse for Israel and Russia to do what they have done.") The Israelis are doing the wrong thing for the right reason in my opinion, that reason being to destroy the sanctuary of anti-Israeli terrorists, and defeat terrorism to the point where it cannot strike back. I didn't say that the Arabs have tried to invade Israel for resources. They are upset that a country with Jerusalem as its capital (or Tel Aviv, according to the UN), a city that is a holy city for many different nationalities, is in the control of Jews.

As for Rush Limbaugh, his only bias is that he is very conservative. You should listen to him, that's all. He gives a lot of proof on how he is right, which he is always right. Now for that statue might not being real. Seems to go in with the hollywood war theory. If the war didn't happen, then why did the "information" minister of Iraq commit suicide when Baghdad had fallen? Is that a rumor published by multiple media publications, or a thing that actually happened? New-er-bie, you say that you are just trying to be the opposite of what I say. Then does not mean that you personally disagree with some of what you say, or everything you say? I am debating for the side I'm actually on.

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

Well you figured it out, some of the stuff I say I don't really care about, just have to give the other side. You know, keep the debate going.   There I replied to your last line.  
Iraqi info minister killed himself? Pathetic, I never knew.

Yeah I don't know much about the "world order" or whatever. People are stupid, would it be so bad if someone took over the whole world? If they were a good leader, then I wouldn't care, but who knows. People waste their time fighting about worthless stuff, terrorists aren't gonna kill the US. Aid's is, teen pregnacny is, corruption is, rape is, crime is, you get the point. Humans are the biggest parasite to this planet. Sad but true.

As for al-qaeda, they're taking the wrong approach. After the took afganistan I would have helped it a lot more and actually rebuilt it like promised. That way people wouldn't become terrorists. I would loosen up isaeli checkpoints and stuff. The problem isn't wasting al-qaeda neccesarily, it's containing it. "Containment", you should know what that is with all this communism stuff. Think about it, if no one joins al-qaeda how will it work. Not even if people just join it, they have to be completely dedicated and willing to use thier lives. al-qaeda uses propeganda too, and probably is recruiting so much now.  I would help the people around the world to make the US have a better image and a more fair image, I would stop the hypocrisy in foriegn affiars, and focus on the stuff and not bite off more than I can chew.

Phil people are always gonna mess with the US no matter what. Even if it flexes it's military muscle. The US is like a bully, pick on the weakest kid.                    

[OP2Patriot]

Then why would the little kid pick a fight with the bully? I beg to differ with your analogy, we were provoked. So the lives of the 5 1/2+ Billion people mean nothing to you? If humanity is really a paracite, then why not kill yourself and make the host feel better? You are upset with the death of innocents, yet you call humanity a parasite. Of course, this springs off of evolutionary ideology I happen to disagree with.

Here's my opinion with what should be done with Al-Queda: destroy it. Kill or imprison every last member. Simple enough. If there is no Al-Queda left, how could Al-Queda hurt us? Containing Al-Queda is like trying to contain a bomb explosion with no protection, you are going ot get hurt. If no one joins Al-Queda, then what about those who are still a part of it? There will always be people that will hate the US, for our idealogies, culture, or how great we are as a nation.

---philipu2001



                   

[new-er-bie]

No people are cool, but there's so many bad people in the world. People like that piss me off, they give all people a bad name, like terrorists give muslims a bad name. People are just a parasite becasue all they care about is themselves.
"Of course, this springs off of evolutionary ideology I happen to disagree with."

No it dosen't spring off evolutinary ideology, what I was trying to say is that people are so screwed up these days. Guess I said it in a bad way.

Your opinion is to kill everyone member of al-qaeda? And you think that's simple? Yeah right, the US can't kill Osama or even find Saddam, thier intellegence isn't perfect. So your idea is pretty far off. Your right if they all were dead then there would be no problem, but as history proves as long as the US is at the top theres always gonna be someone to hurt it. It's easier to 'contain' it by helping people around the world, plus your helping people. You've never been to a third world country I'm guessing? You've probably never even been to a poor part of the US? You still think the US dosen't have poor people? You should see the way they live, and you'll wonder why it's so easy for them to waste thier lives.


                   

[OP2Patriot]

I meant simple as in a simple idea, easy to grasp. It's the best way to solve the problem, and likely way to take to longest. Containment way be the easiest, but will it solve the problem? If we would have keep trying containment with Iraq, they'd get around to nuking us sometime. We were talking about Al-Queda, not terrorism in general. Maybe someday, we will not have to worry about terrorism, but for now, it seems terrorism is going to be here forever. But remember, 5 years before the USSR fell, if you told someone the USSR would fall in 5 years, they would not believe you. As long as we are committed to defeating terrorism, we are making America a safer place for future generation. Those who fear reprecussions from the Iraq War are only looking in the short term, while what the USA is doing now is for the long term.

There is nothing wrong with helping people. There are plenty of not so privelaged people out there. Usually this is a result of not being able to succeed enough fiancially to have a livable income. With a bit of a cash and some classes, we could make those people productive members of society. Now only if there were more jobs out there. The market was going to go down anyway. The profits in the stock market were reported 30% higher than they were actually were during the Clinton Administration, thus the current economic state was unavoidable. America is also a land of promise, where those who have the skills to be great can be great, unlike other countries where you just inherit your parent's social status. You should read about Carnegie some time. I've never been to a third world country, but I know those who have. The great thing about America is, you can make money off about anything. If you really care about the poor and unprivelaged, then donate to a local charity.

There is this one case in court (or will be in court) that is ridiculous. Let me explain. There was this 450+ pound man, who wanted to apply for a job at McDonalds. They turned him down, because he'd scare off the customers. (You can figure out why) So sometime later, he has a heart attack. Now his family is suing McDonalds for killing the fat man. Maybe this isn't the best example. There are so many different types of buisnesses in America, unfortunately rich lawyers seeking a landmark case in American history is one of those buisnesses.

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

I forgot to say this in my previous post that the US attacked iraq unprovoked. The little kid didn't pick a fight with the bully. Iraq just got accused and then invaded.

If told someone that had any brains that the USSR would fall in 5 years they would agree that it would fall but don't know how soon. They know how the communist economy sucks, and the world runs on money.

First off, not in all 3rd world countries you inherit your parent's social status. Just cause they're 3rd world countries dosen't mean that they're still like that. They're lots of smart people in 3rd world countries, it's just that the jobs in those countries pay less than they would in the US. Hearing about something from someone is different than seeing it yourself. But I remember when my uncle went to saudi arabia he said that it was different than the US but not worse. He said it was nice how there wasn't that much security at stores and stuff. There it was understood that if you went into a store it was to buy something, not to steal. Too bad we don't have that here.

"The great thing about America is, you can make money off about anything."

Well I see what your saying, but I think it's also the bad thing. In the US you really can make money off anything, thats why there so many prostitutes that are forced into work. They have nothing else to make money off except...you know, do 'work' for some horny guy.

As for McDonalds and those court cases they're just for people to make easy money. 1/3 of America is like obese cause of fast food like McDonalds making thier food so unhealthy. But the real reason is probably cause people are so lazy and don't excersize or anything.                    

[OP2Patriot]

Wasn't it provoking enough that we could see Iraq helping those helping us? You may say they have no link to Al-Queda (there was a link between Iraq and Al-Queda, but that Iraq is no more), but that does not mean Iraq supports other terrorist groups. If they would make one atom bomb, give to some terrorists, sneak it past security, KA BOOM, we'd have a castrophie. Homeland security might stop it, but it would be safer to prevent the bomb from ever getting into terrorist hands. With all the info from the CIA we got, you have to wonder what other dirty secrets the USA knows about Iraq. The place where they found the weapons-grade plutonium, there was radiation where it was found. If it was not plutonium, where was it from. Now for those 3000 boxes of white powder that may be chemicals, you have to wonder why the chemicals are with anti-dote and manuals for chemical warfare. Maybe they were having a jihad against insects.

Now for shoplifting in America. If there was a harser punishment other than a slap on the wrist (like at least 20 years in jail) maybe we wouldn't have to worry of shoplifting more often. In Kuwait, for example, steal, and you lose your right hand. Steal again, and I guess your other hand. (Although, you would be branded the first, and not very smart ot do it a second time) In my opinion, its how they punish those who steal is why in Arab countries there is less penalties for stealing.

Maybe I should have said, the great thing about America is, if are just able to work hard enough, you should have a very healthy income. The only bad thing is, that if you work very hard, you become one of the top 50% that pays 96.06 percent of the taxes (IRS Statistics from 2000, I got charts). New-er-bie, right now, we are bearing the fruits of America. We inherit the pros and cons. That is we got politicians, to make America a better place for the future. Then there is disagreements on how it should be done, so then there is the basic division of conservative and liberal.

Here's a basic way to say the difference between the two philosophies. Liberals, they do something to the people, like Welfare. Conservates, they do something with the people. "Give a man a fish, and he will have a meal, but teach a man to fish, and he shall eat for life." ---Confusious (If I misquoted, correct me) However, there is no such thing as a free meal, someone pays for it. There is so much welfare spending, if we could cut it, we could work more on making new roads, larger tax cuts, and improvements for the future. Another difference between the two philosophies is the size of government. Liberals want a bigger government, and conservatives want a smaller one.

---philipu2001                    

[new-er-bie]

Well you can call it whatever you want but the war on iraq was unprovoked. Just cause they had stuff or even if they were helping other people dosen't mean they were provoking. Understand what provoking is. The US was the aggressor, at least admit that much. Thats why the whole world pop. was against it, cause it was unprovoked. I'm sure if they provoked the US then the world would be behind us, or even if the government did something and blamed it on them.

Wow we have our own debating thread!

Yeah maybe your right about the shoplifting thing, but you gotta admit that the society in the US is really corrupt. Maybe you aren't and your friends are but so many people here are. When my uncle went to saudi arabia he was like amazed that people were so nice. But he didn't really meet so many natives, he met some other muslim guys that I guess went there too. America has some gay laws, like porno, homosexuality, and gambling and other stuff that screws up america, and drinking...but lets not get into that.

Man every chance you get you try to make liberals sound worse than conservatives. I hate these stupid political parties that you categorize people into. I don't care much for this bull, bigger/smaller gov works better and worse in different situations. First you don't even say what liberals support bigger state gov? federal gov? If you didn't already know the US gov is pretty damn huge, it's got like 300 depts, and then they just added homeland securtiy. Bigger gov isn't always bad like you make it out to be, it gets more jobs.

And yeah I know hard work pays,  I get enough of that from my dad.                    

[OP2Patriot]

Big government is bad. Originially, this country was founded for only two things: defense and justice. The public schools were originally made for poor people, but now a majority of the children go to them. Welfare, people should not be forced to pay for the misfortune of others. There are charities out there. My parents often give to charity. Not everyone would give to charity, but charity should replace welfare, not welfare replace charity. Then there is some rediculous spending going on. Cut all of that, and we will have more money flowing around, creating a stronger economy. I am deliberately a hard-core conservative, thus my posts reflect on my views. Liberals support a bigger federal government. Conservatives support a smaller one.

There are bad things in America. Stricter laws, enforcements, and more intelligent juries! How many times does a jury sympathesis with the criminal, because of the harsh environment he grew up in? I'm short on time, and will continue later.

---philipu2001