Author Topic: Outpost Open-core  (Read 7610 times)

Offline Skix

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Outpost Open-core
« on: May 06, 2008, 09:17:50 PM »
(If you don't care for Introductory Rants, Skip Down To Below the Line)

Throughout the Years, We have Seen many projects promising new Oupost Games and mods, And Throughout the Years, We have Waited.

And Waited...

And Waited...

And Yet, What have we gotten?

A Few Minor mods, maps, and Bug Fixes to OP2, And a Tiny game where you play as a linx.

But:
No Epic Sequal to OP2 (Despite the many promised ones)
No "What Outpost Should have Been's"
No Awesom OP2 Mods Like New Vehicals, Buildings, or Weapons.

Closed or "Limited" Source projects, Our Busy Lives, And The overly Complex Multi-Language Code of OP2, Have been the main reasons for these things.

But You all knew that already, so, lets get on with this.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Outpost Open-Core Project

This Goal of this Project is to make an open source, Readly available game "Core" That can used to more Easily Create an RTS and TBS Game. (IE Outpost 1 and 2 like.)

It Will Be Written in JAVA, and Will Contain all the Necissisary Classes, Functions, and Interactions between them, that a Outpost like Game would Need. An of course, they will be organised in such a way that Adding and modifing the classes Should be Relletivly Easy.

Upon Completion, Any one should be able download the package, Import their Grafics, Stories, Maps, and Scenarios, And Then Compile a Working game.

Now, This is still alot of work, but this will give people a Starting point,  a Launch pad if you will. Perhaps if this part is done for them, We might actualy see a working game.
It seems Everyone is More Concerned about grafics and stories than mechanics anyway.

Development Process (In Proposed Chronological Order):

Simple Menu
Basic Game Functions (Starting, Stopping, The Timer)
Basic Terrain Classes
Basic Building Classes
Basic Vehical Classes
Basic Weapons Classes
Building-Terrain Rules
Vehical-Terrain Rules
Vehical-Building Interactions
Weapon-Mount (Both Vehical and Building) Interactions
Various Game Functions (Reasearch/Construction Timers, Repair)
Advanced Game Functions  (Building, Spawning, Destroying)
Special Tile Functions
Special Tile Interactions
Weapon/Damage Interactions
Extremely Basic Test Tileset
Extremely Basic Test Map(s)
Random mapper Framework
Weapon Mechanics / More Damage Interactions
Simple AI
Better Tileset
Better Maps
Improve Random Mapper
Better AI
Map Editor
Multiplayer Support
An All Inclusive Menu
Optional Turn Based Rule Conversions
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you can see, I have alot on my plate (Did I miss anything), None the less, I believe it can be done.

Some Questions:

Why use JAVA?

1.It's the only lnguage I know.
2.Any OS can use it.
3.Its Object oriented nature makes it perfect.
4.I'm confident that Computers have advanced enough In recent years to allow for a game running on an Interpreted language to run smoothly.

2D or 3D?

The First Engine is going to be 2D, But after completion, I may make one that Runs 3D.
I'm Going to us 2D First Because:
A: A 2 Dimensional map is easier to make (I Don't know how to make JAVA Use 3D models)
B: Not everyone has Expensive Modeling software, But Anyone can get Gimp and Paint.net

When Can I Expect Updates/Completion?

As for Completion I don't know yet, I'll include an estmate with my first update.
But for Updates, Expect the First in Mid to Late June. I graduate High School May 31, So Anything before then will be impossible.

Mid to Late June?!?!?! Why Post This So Early???
Two Reasons:

1: To motivate me to do it. Now I'll look like a Jack ass if I don't.
2: Because I Need Stuff From You.

What? You Need Stuff From Us???

Yes, You see, I'm No Artist. Any Art work, Modles, Pics of Vehicals, Buildins, terrain, and things of the like would be much appreciated. Just Post them in this thread, or drop a link.
I WOULD REALLY APRECIATE TILES
even if they are ripped from OP2, I cant make a random map maker without something to work with.
Any Tiles should be in the form of an image file. The format doesnt matter as long as it's not RAW. If it doesn't work i'll just convert it.

What Will be considered an "Update"

An Update will be a description of whats finished, what I'm workin on now and of course, The Full, Current, Up to date Source

Whats Next?
Well, After this Project, I plan to start my "Outpost 3: Remenants of Earth" Idea, and base it of this proposed core. Of course, as of now, thats a long ways off.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 07:43:35 AM by Leviathan »

Offline Savant 231-A

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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2008, 05:51:01 AM »
:huh:
OK, this post really suprised me.

But I have to say that you have to make sure that this project doesn't end like the other ones

:D
Gordon Freeman, and mr. Crowbar would own Master Chief in any part of the day.
"Come here citizen."

"From the ashes of the collapse we seek to build a better world for all."

Offline Nynx

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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2008, 07:33:21 AM »
as a fellow java coder myself, I give this two thumbs all the way up!

sounds like an interesting idea and def worth a try. cant wait to see how it comes out.

as for 3d models in java, are there any packages you could download that already handle it for you?

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2008, 07:41:47 AM »
Yes I agree the major projects such as new games should have been open source from day one.

Most of us got very annoyed at the genesis team for being so secretive and closed.

Well if your serious about this then great!

I know Java and would be happy to help where I can.

I would suggest maybe using or at least taking a good look at Qt. Its a code once, run anywhere platform. Could save you some time.

I think we should use the OP2 gfx to start with and even work on making a Outpost 2 clone first. Geting an open source engine going is the most important part. The gfx can come later.

You have all the support from me and OPU. If you need webspace or anything setup just pm me.

I hope everyone who can help will be. The more people the better!

Be sure to be on IRC and in #outpost2.coding. Thanks for this news :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 07:42:46 AM by Leviathan »

Offline Brazilian Fan

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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2008, 09:20:45 AM »
I can also help this project as a programmer. It's been such a long time since I last wrote Java code  :heh:

Do you want to make real RTS "Core", or it'll be made specially for OP1/OP2 clones or projects alike?

Hope this one doesn't get to the trash bin  :find:  

Offline Nynx

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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2008, 12:00:27 PM »
I wouldn't let this fall in the trash, and I have my own projects on my plate, just give me like 1 or 2 things you need some help with and I'll see what I can do.

 

Offline Skix

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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2008, 02:51:27 PM »
:lol: Wow, Warm Reception. AWESOME!

Quote
But I have to say that you have to make sure that this project doesn't end like the other ones
Quote
Hope this one doesn't get to the trash bin
Quote
Well if your serious about this then great!

Ohhh! I'm Serious! I WILL NOT LET THIS DIE!
I HAVE WAITED TO LONG!!!!!
I Even Contacted Dan himself, And he couldn't help, He hadn't the OP2 Source... Actually, He thought OPU had OP2 totaly dissasembled...

That Said...

I WILL NOT LET THIS DIE!
[size=8]Even If My Spelling is Terrible and I refuse To use Pell Check.[/size]

Quote
If you need webspace or anything setup just pm me.

Awesome, Awesome. I Actually got a FeeHostia account, and I'll Upgrade to a basic paid version when I start pumping out major updates. But hey, I might just take you up on that offer, Especially When we get to the multiplayer section...

Quote
Do you want to make real RTS "Core", or it'll be made specially for OP1/OP2 clones or projects alike?

It's Going to be designed for OP-esc Games AT FIRST, However, In time, as it evolves, I'll see to it that it will be made more flexible. By Design, It will offer the Overly Detailed Complexity that OP2 Offered, However, After Completeion, I'll Make some more Functions that allow for or Simple RTS games like C&C, Starcraft, and AoE, But Thats Not Going to happen untill Well AFTER completion.
That said, If I where to do that...
This Thing Would Be legendary...
Awesome...

NOW  THEN

Thank you All. I didn't know there where so many Java Coders here. This Could Make Things Easier (And Faster) I'm Gonna Work on the thing on list pretty much in order, top to bottom. I'll Try to Get The Basic stuff out of the way to give you all a glimps of what you could be working with.

Oh and Leviathan, I Got Your PM, And I'll Be sure to Check out QT.

Honestly People, It's been A Long While Since I've Used JAVA.
But I have Lots of Old Source from School Years past, My old For Dummies books, and the Almighty power of the Internet.
And of Course, Now I have All You, Depending on me to Launch this Sucker.
I Can't let you down.
Relearning JAVA will be a Cakewalk Now.
And Thank god MOST of This is More Tedius than it is Difficult.

AS OF NOW:
I'm Downloading my Packages, the SDK, My favorite Flavors of Net Beans, And JCreator, and of course, QT.

I'll Start tonight or tommorow Night.
I'll Keep you Posted.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2008, 05:03:29 PM »
Quote
:lol: Wow, Warm Reception. AWESOME!
That's because you haven't had to deal with me or the other "killjoys" (realists) yet.

So, another OP2 remake, promising the same grand claims as all the other ones, except this one has the nerve to tell us it will be playable in less than a month.
I'd be surprised if it lasted more than a month, forget having an "early release" by then.
The reason nothing gets done around here is precisely what you're doing: announcing the project.  You're going to get a bunch of "team members" who will do very little to help, if anything at all, and you'll all end up using the "excuses" you condemned in your first post.  Meanwhile, you'll be getting swamped by feature requests from people who have a very weak grasp of what OP2 is all about - survival and hard science. You're going to have to explain why cloaking devices, nuclear missiles, orbital doomsday devices, and faster-than-light travel are all bad ideas, or (even worse) give in and transform OP2 into a piece of junk Starcrap clone.
And what is so "legendary" about an open source RTS engine? I know of several already in existence.

Of course, Freeza summarizes it so nicely:
Quote
(19:46:37) (Freeza-CII) you should know by now
(19:46:51) (Freeza-CII) that all projects are doomed to fail when they start at opu
(19:48:44) (Freeza-CII) if they even do start

Now, this isn't a personal attack against you... Well, maybe it is. But as you pointed out yourself, if you don't do this, you're going to be letting many people down. If you're going to start on an OP2 remake (or any major project really), at least get somewhere before telling everyone about it. Get a small group of people you can trust to work on it privately so it's at least somewhat presentable.
"As usual, colonist opinion is split between those who think the plague is a good idea, and those who are dying from it." - Outpost Evening Star

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Offline Nynx

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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2008, 05:27:43 PM »
or maybe they fall apart in the face of your doom and gloom approach, my good sir.

you can't knock down everything at first glance and say; 'fail' if its past his deadline and he's got nothing done: tear him a new one. But we don't know that yet, besides, most open-source projects involve the community of the particular open source aka all of you guys. (i am not heavily involved enough to say this or that for development, im just an op2 enthusiast)

Also, about that starcraft comment, how could you knock it? there's no misleading about what it is: a fast-paced, intense tactical game. nowhere on the box does it say: "AND BUILD THE ULTIMATE COLONY" by touting features like 'morale' and 'management.'
Starcraft is technically a take on the CnC RTs approach. Outpost 2 isn't a Starcraft, but it is an RTS: it's real time and strategic, just a different strategy. To conclude: He is talking about building a java-based Outpost engine with an Outpost game as its flagship game.

In the end, I'm kinda excited, feels like it'll breath new life into opu seeing as how every other mod is like you said; dead.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 05:28:31 PM by Nynx »

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2008, 05:32:56 PM »
Quote
i am not heavily involved enough to say this or that for development, im just an op2 enthusiast
And that's why all projects are doomed to failure. People like you say they'll help but never do because you're "just enthusiasts" and not programmers.
"As usual, colonist opinion is split between those who think the plague is a good idea, and those who are dying from it." - Outpost Evening Star

Outpost 2 Coding 101 Tutorials

Offline Nynx

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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2008, 05:38:43 PM »
now thats called taking my words out of context, a feat quite manageable when they're typed.

I said that because it wouldnt be right for me to step in and dictate how this project should go or emphasize my opinions as opposed to the oldest members of the forum.

Second of all, I'm a Computers and Information Science major in college and a junior, so I believe that makes me a programmer. As I said earlier too the reason I can't throw my weight into this is because I'm currently programming a game engine with my own group as well as prepping for my senior project (another game).

And Lastly, What have you done to support these projects?
(this last part isn't a angry attack, show me evidence to prove me wrong and I won't challenge your opinion on this.)

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2008, 05:43:13 PM »
What have I done? I learned and tried a bit of modeling for Genesis, I'm learning C# to help with a few projects around here, I've worked on several new maps, made a few small techtrees here and there for people, made a couple of Color Mods, and am currently working on a brand-new techtree built from the ground up, and I've helped test a few things for Hooman and BlackBox over the years. I'm also working on a tool to make techs quickly and easily so people don't have to mess around with the techtree language.

I think that's a pretty extensive resume, no?
"As usual, colonist opinion is split between those who think the plague is a good idea, and those who are dying from it." - Outpost Evening Star

Outpost 2 Coding 101 Tutorials

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2008, 05:46:44 PM »
Sirbomber Supported Genesis once Ill just leave that at that.

But as for my quote

Yes i do see all the doomed projects which may never see the light of day.

That doesnt mean Dont give it a shot By all means prove me wrong.  I am a pessimist But only because If i am right then oh well.  But if i am wrong then its even better.

Offline Nynx

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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2008, 05:52:40 PM »
ok, then I sit in my comfy chair corrected on regards to your contributions, that doesnt mean belittle my stance (as I've said in the above post)
In fact, today, I downloaded the op2SDK and the recent CodeBlocks IDE because it got me interested (I took C++ this semester) Also Codeblocks is turning out to be much better than M$ visual studio.

I think we should give this idea a shot because its more completable as opposed to an outpost 3, and when its done (the 2d part) maybe we'll see some op2 expansion packs, who knows? you gotta have hope.
 

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2008, 06:42:09 PM »
Quote
I Don't Realy care about what Freeza Has to say, Because he's not here saying it to me.

hmmm im sure i posted some thing up there.
 

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2008, 06:53:14 PM »
Well, so much for not being a personal attack, but if you insist...

Odd that I'm "illiterate" when you can't spell to save your life, and your grammar (especially your use Of Capitalizing Random words whenever You Feel Like it) is atrocious. Perhaps you should check the definition of the words you use:
Quote
   1. Unable to read and write.
   2. Having little or no formal education.
   3. Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with language and literature.
   4. Violating prescribed standards of speech or writing. (such as capitalizing random letters)
A "major update" means it's done or an important obstacle has been surmounted. Anything else is insignificant. Again, perhaps you need to brush up on your vocabulary skills.  After that, maybe you can learn a real language instead of Java. Then I might have more faith in your ability to program something that displays "Hello World" (we can move onto making a new game engine after that).

And it's not my fault things don't get done. It's people like you that think they're invincible.  In a few years, when you're not an annoying high school student, you'll look back at this someday and laugh at how naive you were. Don't worry about it though, everyone goes through this kind of phase. I'm not going to hold it against you. Water under the bridge and whatnot, right?
"As usual, colonist opinion is split between those who think the plague is a good idea, and those who are dying from it." - Outpost Evening Star

Outpost 2 Coding 101 Tutorials

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 07:16:18 PM »
I'll read them when they make sense and are worth my time. My point was don't call me illiterate when you yourself are the one who more closely fits the definition of illiterate.

Edit: And may I point out that you attacked me? I simply stated that I didn't expect the project to go anywhere (something I often state about new projects, including some of my own) and I actually pointed out that it wasn't a personal attack against you.

Edit 2: You know, I'd have no problem deleting all these "negative" posts and starting over with a clean slate.  I wouldn't need an apology from you or anything. [size=0]Because I verbally owned you already.[/size] I'm a forgiving person. Sometimes.  What do you say?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 07:26:04 PM by Sirbomber »
"As usual, colonist opinion is split between those who think the plague is a good idea, and those who are dying from it." - Outpost Evening Star

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Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 07:46:03 PM »
Well nice to see a fast moving thread for once :)

No need to delete the posts. Sirbomber has valid points. But anyway were not here to argue.

Actions speak louder than words and we shall see what Skix comes up with to start this project rolling all in good time.

Lets have faith that this will be a successful project for all at OPU to enjoy.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2008, 07:53:04 PM »
True, in only a few hours it's received several replies.
Lev, I'm offering to delete the posts as an attempt at reconciliation. We'll put it behind us and start over with a clean slate.
"As usual, colonist opinion is split between those who think the plague is a good idea, and those who are dying from it." - Outpost Evening Star

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Offline Nynx

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« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2008, 07:55:25 PM »
riiiight, pave over everything and pretend its ok?
erase stuff people say to try and hide it all?

only someone not comfortable with what they've said would suggest that...

 :rolleyes:

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 07:58:02 PM »
Look hes seen the attitude he might get from some people announcing a project like this but its realy not importiant. Hes not here to please everyone and you often cant. Whats importiant is the project.

The posts are not geting deleted. And im sure Skix will also be happy to put it behind and move on.

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2008, 08:09:37 PM »
Nah, I'm just trying to set a good example. I thought offering an attempt at reconciliation was a good start, but you would rather prolong it. Fine by me.
Oh yes, I was pointing out your grammar errors because, again, you said I was illiterate, and was simply countering the argument and pointing out your own illiteracy. Now who won't read posts fully?

Anyways, back to the purpose of this post...

I'd rather not say this, but you leave me little choice.
You mess with me and I'll tear you to shreds, n00b. I will not stop until your ego lies in tatters on the floor and you're too embarrassed to even show yourself around here.

NOTE TO OPS: This is why I never try to reconcile with anyone. Can you blame me? I try to be nice and I get crap!

But I'm a bit tired, so we'll pick this up again tomorrow, shall we? We can be gentlemen about this and cease hostilities for the night.

Of course, the "forget the whole thing" option is still there... Will you accept my gracious offer or kick and scream like a child throwing a tantrum?

SECOND NOTE TO OPS: If he accepts my proposal, will somebody get rid of all of this? It's such an ugly mar on the forums.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 08:12:26 PM by Sirbomber »
"As usual, colonist opinion is split between those who think the plague is a good idea, and those who are dying from it." - Outpost Evening Star

Outpost 2 Coding 101 Tutorials

Offline Skix

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« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2008, 08:10:45 PM »
Fine if you insist, i'll get rid of it... But I Always love a good flamewar every now and then...
Tis Fun...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 08:12:14 PM by Skix »

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2008, 08:12:52 PM »
But there is no need for it and no place for it here. Were here to get along with each other and enjoy our time at OPU. Thanks.

Offline Hidiot

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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2008, 02:53:11 AM »
Enthusiasm is a good thing, but don't overdo it (it raises the risk of making mistakes) and definitely don't go starting or contributing to flame wars, as last time I checked that was against the rules everybody agrees to when signing up on the forums.

I think this project is a good idea, provided it can be carried out to its end.

And, whilst I have not been long enough around to know too much about such projects, looking through this section, I can see that many of the things Sirbomber said are true.

Personal experience dictates that even if you are very enthusiastic about a project, you might end up aborting it due to highly annoying obstacles you can't get over, or just the shear number of challenging obstacles.


So... keep cool, civilized, plan things out and stay optimally motivated.
I also think the deadline you gave isn't realistic. Quality is far better than quantity (or speed) here.
"Nothing from nowhere, I'm no one at all"