Author Topic: Panthers : Neglected? (Read 4566 times)

Starfox00000 · « **on:** July 12, 2006, 01:53:33 AM »

Me, Beta, and Isandwich were talking on irc about how no one uses panthers becasue they cant catch lynx and cant fight tigers. We eventually got to the conclusion that the speeds for vechiles are:
2 - scout
3 - lynx
4 - panther
5 - tiger
there are speed upgrades that raise vech's speed by one point. But there is a speed upgrade for every vech except panthers, probably because no one uses them. So were were saying how there should be a topic to increase speed for panthers. This might not necessarily fix things, but mabey make them more fair. you could easily add this to any mission that you might be making, so its just something to think about.

Starfox00000 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2006, 02:47:23 AM »

i had an idea for this : make the lynx upgrade a pre-requsite of the panther upgrade and make the topic say like "after studying the modifications to the lynx drive train, we beleive we can apply some of the techniques to the panther chassis drive train."

you could even make the panther speed upgrade a pre-requisite to the tiger speed thing and say the same thing.

just a thought

Freeza-CII · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2006, 05:46:36 AM »

omg fox i was there to :angry:

BlackBox · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2006, 08:05:04 AM »

Quote

i had an idea for this : make the lynx upgrade a pre-requsite of the panther upgrade and make the topic say like "after studying the modifications to the lynx drive train, we beleive we can apply some of the techniques to the panther chassis drive train."

Only problem with that is it doesn't really help. Once the panther research is done both vehicles are moving at faster speeds but the lynx is still faster than the panther.

Like you said, assign numbers:
3 = lynx
4 = panther

Now each research ups the speed an equal amount.

So after the research you have:
2 = lynx
3 = panther

Still no improvement, the panthers won't catch the lynx.

I think one sure fire way to promote panther use (in a mission) would be to prevent the player from building tigers (either make the research unavailable, or make tigers very ridiculously expensive that they aren't cost effective to build at all). You could also make a research topic which would 'unlock' tigers but not without significant cost to other things. (Ex. lynxes now move slower because we no longer make the type of motor and power plant that the lynxes used to use, now they have to use the same ones that panthers use).

Isolocis · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2006, 10:06:19 AM »

Quote

Isandwich

Please call me Isolocis.

CK9 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2006, 10:17:02 AM »

The main reason people don't use panthers as often is because they main focuss on offensive attacks. Panthers are very useful on maps like La Corr, where you have time to build up defensive positions (which can later be abandond so you have backup arriving)

TH300 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2006, 12:53:12 PM »

are Panthers really useless or are they just not used?

The fact that most people only build tigers/lynxes doesn't imply that a panther isn't worth the metals it costs.

Mcshay · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2006, 01:35:16 PM »

Panthers are very useful in situations where you have little ore, but need to match your enemies' tigers. It works better than lyxn or a few tigers.

CK9 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2006, 03:21:23 PM »

however, in a situation where you have equal ore and are not at tigers yet, the lower cost of lynx improves the quantity of the same quality of weapon. With the armor upgrade, the lynx becomes even more appealing, as they are able to hold up better against tigers.

People like:
lynx for the speed
tiger for the dual weapon turrets

It is harder to recognize the advantages of panthers if you are immediately thinking of speed and fire power

Betaray · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2006, 04:12:52 PM »

exactly, so we should give them some sort of advantage

right now with their current speed they are basicly just a worse version of a tiger, and thats why nobody uses them

with this speed upgrade it will bring them up to where they actually have a middleground purpose

Tellaris · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2006, 05:36:31 PM »

Doesn't the armor upgrade affect panthers too? I know panthers get extra hp over other vehicles, due to an upgrade for them.

Betaray · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2006, 06:14:35 PM »

yes they get hp and armor upgrades, bringing them up to 700 hp heavy armor, basicly a worse version of the tiger

if they are faster they would be in a class of their own, instead of living in the tigers shadow

CK9 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2006, 08:53:19 PM »

okay, no more caffine for Arklon...

Highlander · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2006, 11:16:48 PM »

Quote

Me, Beta, and Isandwich were talking on irc about how no one uses panthers becasue they cant catch lynx and cant fight tigers.

You already have the answer guys. Just a matter of using your brains a bit here..

If you can't catch Lynx with a Panther, you don't use Panthers to chase down an army of Lynx. Obviously, you use Lynx to do the job.

Panthers might not be able to stand up to Tigers, but they can easily stand up to Lynx.. Right ?

So, if you got superior units, but can't catch or give chase to your enemy, what do you do.. ? You either block his movement, or make him come to you.

-By this I of course mean you use natural bottlenecks on the map. Place some Panthers there, and a moving Lynx army will have a thougher job going through, than if you were guarding it with Lynx. So as long as Lynx units are in the offensive field, Panthers have their value. However, when Tigers are introduced as the main offensive unit, Panthers will be obsolete.

Me, I always prefer high speed and manouverability over armor, since I will then most often be the one who controls where the battles takes place. However, when you get Tigers, their superior firepower will do the same trick, because with a army Tiger moving somewhere to strike, your opponent can't avoid the coming battle. In both cases I take control over the battlefield.

Using Panthers to force my opponents early Lynx army to move in a certain direction or avoid a certain area still allows me to control the battlefield. It's just that I've used the above so long, that is what I feel most comfortable with.

Betaray · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2006, 11:26:00 PM »

its not just a matter of being able to chase down the light units, its a matter of being able to get the units to a defencive posisition, currently if you have your frount line any distance beyond point blank from the vec facts, it will take panthers a pretty long time to join the fight, which by than could be too late

plus it would be pretty easy to implament, just adding a tech, it could even be map spasific things we've done before

Highlander · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2006, 11:39:03 PM »

Exactly Betaray.

As a battlefield commander, you always have to know your limits.

There is always a balance as to how far you can push the battlefront infront of you before your supply lines fail. It's only natural.

If you want a position that badly, you first send out lynx to gain control. Panthers/Tigers to back them up. Join in with a factory or 2 once area is secured, produce more units, and THEN move your frontline further away.

Look to some of the great battles in history.. Some of them have been decided because the commanders had stretched their supply lines to far. I don't see why it should be made any different on New Terra or in OP2..?

Betaray · « **Reply #16 on:** July 13, 2006, 12:49:21 AM »

I propose we have a new map that will have it just to test how it effects game play

convently ck9 has just put togather a new map made from portions of campain maps, he has said that he is intrested in putting the tiger speed mod in, but that reshurch wouldnt just upgrade the tiger speed, but panther speed as well

if people like it, mabe we can make it more general, if not, well than no

Sl0vi · « **Reply #17 on:** July 13, 2006, 11:44:07 AM »

Why do you want to turn the Panther into a Lynx? Panthers are horribly cought in the middle of being a lynx or a tiger, which is their downfall, since they are pretty bad at filling out the role of either of the two. If you want to give the Panther a more specific role, making it an uber armored lynx wouldn't improve the game, since it would just make the lynx pointless in the long run. Maybe find some other role for the Panther that neither of the other two already have.

Also, I hounestly don't like doing too many changes to the game, as the game is great as it is.

Betaray · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2006, 03:56:53 PM »

a panther, being the medium chassis is supposed to be a jack of all trades but a master of none, it is supposed to have decent hit points and armor, and yet be fast enough to outrun the heavys, currently it does not have the speed and thus is relagated to the posistion of crappy tiger

what we are proposing is a reshurch topic to increase the speed from 4 to 3, not a big gamebusting change, to put it in perspective it is the same impovement given to cargo trucks, so it will be the same speed as a cargo truck

this is just a small minor imporvement to try and get the panther into its rightfull place on the tacticians table, right now it is only good for static defence, it cant be used for ambushes or spot reenforcement because it is too slow, this will help that ablility

BlackBox · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2006, 03:58:48 PM »

Yeah I agree with Highlander.. Panthers can be useful to hold a position. Also, does the fact that it can't outrun the Lynx really matter? if you were using the Panther as an offensive unit it has a bit more strength than a lynx would so anywhere it met up with lynx along the way, it would have an advantage there.

Also, the player may decide to move a lot of lynx back into his base to defend it, for example if you were going for the CC with an army of panthers. The panthers would still win (provided they were similar weapons to the lynx) since they are tougher vehicles.

As for changes to the game it would only happen on an individual basis, per map. There's no reason to change the global game settings.

Edit: Sirbomber's and Arklon's posts with the red text were removed. They were off topic and added nothing to the discussion.

Stormy · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2006, 11:39:27 PM »

Eh, I sorta agree with highlander. Maybe it's possible to have an option that turns the global settings on and off for multiplayer games? that way in the hosting "room" you can set that stuff up...

Sirbomber · « **Reply #21 on:** July 14, 2006, 09:14:03 AM »

Quote

Edit: Sirbomber's and Arklon's posts with the red text were removed. They were off topic and added nothing to the discussion.

If you wanted it gone all you had to do was ask.

Fine, I'll add something.

I never build Panthers, let alone use them, unless it's for the campaign convoy maps.
Even then, I just leave them at the start position to defend the trucks/etc.

A Panther speed upgrade wouldn't make me want to use them either, especially since the Tiger speed upgrade is in, what, three maps?

Highlander · « **Reply #22 on:** July 14, 2006, 11:06:19 AM »

Betaray: Of course Panthers can be used as spot re-inforcement. Any chassis can. All it takes is for the person who is attacked to pay a bit of attention to what is happening.

I think it's great that you guys put forward your ideas and spend time discussing/thinking about the game.

However, without mentioning any names, I believe many of the active players today, lack the indepth knowledge about this game that many of the older players have. A great deal of what used to be "Common Knowledge" back on WON, has been forgotten in our current community.

I feel it is "wrong" to lower the standards of the game simply because it would make it easier for new/inexperienced/[Insert suitable word] players. I'd rather see those players deal with the challenges of the game.

Starfox00000 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 27, 2006, 08:21:30 PM »

everyone is saying panthers are the middle ground, but with the tiger speed mod they are slower than the tigers. i just wanted to keep them in the middle b/c well they are in the middle with speed to start, the other 2 chassis get upgrades but panthers dont and then their not in the middle anymore. -just a though

Freeza-CII · « **Reply #24 on:** August 27, 2006, 11:14:17 PM »

omg you people in combat It comes down to what is your best weapon. If you have lynx and panther but need to take one tiger most people would just use lynx because they can get to the tigers faster but dont last long because its a Kamazie run but serve the purpose of damaging some before dieing. Panthers would last longer and would be cheaper because they last longer but they are slower which allows the tigers to get closers as well. But panther against a lynx the lynx would most likely win because it can out manuver the panther The Panther is over looked either because of speed or damage. But that is only one situation where you are fending off a incoming hoard of tigers and you dont have tigers.

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Author Topic: Panthers : Neglected? (Read 4566 times)