Op2 Promotion

[xamlit]

I realized that we only get gamers who previously played op2. How often is it that we get new op2 players? The only reason that I play OP2 is because i am not a big fan of the current games out there that involve guns, blood, goore and shooting demons. OP2 is definately an alternative game that provides wholesome fun. WE should advertise it as that instead of an old RTS game.

SPAM FORUMS!!!

Tell everyone you know about it!

MAKE IT HAPPEN!!

This will definately answer the op2 n00b channel room probs.

Any realistic suggestions for promoting op2?

[BlackBox]

One problem with doing all that yet though.

We don't have a thorough multiplayer solution. For example for direct IP play you have to be able to send and receive packets directly. For people without router access or that use a connection where they can't control the settings to, or people who don't know enough to change stuff like that, that won't work.

And then Hamachi. Since it's a packet capture driver, you need to 1. Be running Win2k or XP, 2. have access rights to install the driver. It's also slow due to the encryption.

And a lesser problem, which can be bypassed by certain means, is IRC. Some people disapprove of IRC (either because they think there are hackers, pedophiles, or whatever on there, which isn't true for 98% of the IRC nets out there) and some can't access IRC because they are on a connection which restricts it. (e.g. school networks, etc).
Not that I'm saying we should get of IRC (I don't want to get rid of it in any way, it's a great system) we need to come up with some ways for people to get access to IRC, whether it be CGI:IRC's, or whatever).

And as we ALL know, there aren't enough people or resources for teaching new people. Yes OP2 is a harder-than-most game to pick up and play, it has a steep learning curve. But we have to accommodate that. (And no, dumbing down the sheets or whatever isn't a way to do that). The only acceptable way is to teach people how to play properly so they'll feel welcome and want to come back. We have to keep their interest in the game going. Hopefully this can be done someday through making it possible for people to make new maps easily, etc. (The map editor is one of the keys to it)

So before we can really go promoting this game full scale we need to improve the user experience, making it possible for people to get on IRC, play the game, and make their own content for it.

[Leviathan]

I have wanted to do this for a long time and have planed to do it, I just dont think were ready yet.
Need stuff like newbie guides etc

[thablkpanda]

I agree with hacker. But currently I'm working on an in-depth tutorial for installing and becoming completely competent with Outpost 2. (Of course, competent, and a good player are completely different things). So help will be required. I'll submit it to one of ya'll when I get going well. But I agree with xamlit. We need more newbs, because they are the only people I can beat at OP2

Panda

[Sl0vi]

Actually, we already have some build orders on this site, that explain very well how you should play OP2, and using them will definetly teach new players the basics in a short time.

The only problem is that people highly underrate these build orders, and many new players, even some long time players, simply just won't take the time to look at them.

I've tried to get some players to use them, so that we can avoid these 1.5k mark "waiting for the other guy to get ready" games. The first time I actually played a decent game, was when I used a build order, I got from.. can't remember were from. The first time I played good in a game, was when Levi showed me an ultimate build order. I noticed almost immediate improvement in my gameplay.

In short, maybe we should put some of the stuff we already have to better use!

[alice]

Maybe a IRC Shoutbox link?  It would allow me to access IRC At school.  You would just need a gateway or a server that would host that type of program.   (Havent learned how to use cookies yet...)

[leeor_net]

I've begun submitting posts to various game forum networks that have huge user volumes. I've been using the following posts:

Title:
SIERRA's Outpost and Outpost 2 - Online Community

Body:
Were you an avid OUTPOST or Outpost 2 gamer? Still dream of of the WON network playing against other hundreds of miles away?

Once more OUTPOST and Outpost 2 are back together. With many projects and a large online community dedicated to the development of Outpost 2 improvements (as well as a handful of fan-made games like Outpost 3 and OUTPOST: Missing In Action), The Outpost Universe is certainly a place to take a look at!

You can learn more by visiting this link:


http://www.outpostuniverse.net

Happy gaming!

Maybe we can really get the word out there?

:op2: Leeor Dicker

[thablkpanda]

Actually, we already have some build orders on this site, that explain very well how you should play OP2, and using them will definetly teach new players the basics in a short time.

The only problem is that people highly underrate these build orders, and many new players, even some long time players, simply just won't take the time to look at them.

I've tried to get some players to use them, so that we can avoid these 1.5k mark "waiting for the other guy to get ready" games. The first time I actually played a decent game, was when I used a build order, I got from.. can't remember were from. The first time I played good in a game, was when Levi showed me an ultimate build order. I noticed almost immediate improvement in my gameplay.

In short, maybe we should put some of the stuff we already have to better use!

People that play the '1.5k marks' are undoubtably me. And those who wish to play longer games. It's not because I'm underdevloped in that particular strategy, because I wish to enjoy a longer game, opposed to the short-ass, "5-10 minuters" It's a waste of time IMHO, and some of ya'll have never had the chance to use a thors hammer, or Acid cloud, I'd bet. Because you don't have the time to sit back and research the stuff, and chill out having fun with a game that takes slightly more than 10 mins. Call it what you like, but if that's how people choose to play the game, that's fine and dandy, seeing that you guys don't own it, and half of you critisizing the way that I play don't even write maps for the game or do any coding whatsoever. However the other half of you do, and I respect ALL of your opinions, but just jump off my back, If I can play a 30-40 min game with someone, and they like it, and it's not you, then just be happy I'm not begging your azz, for some 'effin bamboo.

 :ph34r: Shadow Panda

[BlackBox]

Well we still aren't ready to promote the game yet! (/me looks at leeor)

Like I said before we need a better multiplayer solution than hamachi. When people come to our site and find out that they can't play because hamachi won't work, and they can't get thru their NAT to play, they'll leave and never come back.

It does more harm than good. So please dont go spamming about OP2 on the internet, etc until we have a better multiplayer system in place. If you've already posted stuff see if you can delete it or edit it since we just simply arent ready yet.


And yes thablkpanda youre entitled to your own opinion. Some people like long games, some people like short games.

[Leviathan]

Leeor i no you want the comunity to start growing, and so do we, but as we have said we are not ready, so please dont go around posting on big or small forums about us. People may come here, not be able to play or get rotuer setup or something easily, and also not be able to learn op2 very easily and give up and leave.. not good. We need to make it as easy as possible for new people to get setup and playing and learning, currently we cant do that.

We planed also to write something to post on many forums, but we wanted to spend time doing it and geting it right etc. And basicly once its ready, one day we would go on a mass spaming spre after we have found many forums to post on.

[thablkpanda]

On a lighter note, how may people actually CAN'T get their routers configured AND can't use ham? That's a slim margin IMHO. But I agree, that would be the chance that if leeor posts @ a forum of 100 people, and 20 of them show up here, then a good 5 might not be able to use Ham/Get router configed.. And 1/4 th of our Clique is droppin before they show up. I agree.

However, there are alot of people here that don't actually play OP2, and chill @ a community. I haven't played OP2 or been to MIRC in a week, easily, because of computer switching/ getting my servers running, however I manage to post here, and keep updated sbout current events (there haven't been any, just in case you're wondering) So if our community grows by 20 people, and 5 of them are non-op2 allowed, hopefully 4 of them will be smart enough to bookmark us, or keep a tab on wth we're doing.

Eh my friends? (that's what they say in canadia (hell yeah, it's canadia now, not canada. Canadia sounds more like Miami, and everyone likes Miami.))

Shadow Panda :ph34r:  

[AxisMann]

Hi.  I was slow to start playing OP2 back when WON was around mainly because the game was so difficult to learn and seemed so slow.

My introduction to shorter games was from playing pie on WON.  However,mostly I play a 3oo mark game with my friends that introduced me to the game.

Now that WON is no more, it's considerably more complicated to get a game going. I can thusly and therefore understand why it might be difficult to attract new blood to the game.  Besides, OP2 got some seriously bad reviews when it first arrived on the scene.  That might be scaring people off and the popularity of first person shooters probably doesn't help much either.

The router problems, while serious, should be overcome by most.  I had no trouble following instructions as far as the took me.  However, the manual didn't explain that I wouldn't be able to host because of network address translation.

That eventually led me to outpost-universe to discover natfix.  Unfortunately, I believe that natfix will only work if the people I'm playing all have the same version of OP2 that natfix is able to fix.  I tried natfix with the version I'm currently using but it didn't seem to help.  So I downloaded latest version of OP2 and applied natfix but I couldn't connect my older version of OP2 to the new one I jacked with natfix.

I suspect that until something as convenient as the interface that WON offered is available that interest will be slow in building.








 

[Leviathan]

Yeah you must use the same version to play with everyone, use ours, it has no cheats and all the latest maps, no need to delete other versions tho. And if you want music and movies thats easy to do.

And yes what you say is true, we need to make it as easy as we can for people to be albe to play together.

[Sl0vi]

Panda, most players that need a mark of 1.5k still haven't finished building up their base at the mark, I know this from experience, and from how I used to play myself. This was not an insult towards players that like long games, it was a suggestion that we try to use what we have to help players improve their skills.

[Hooman]

The older version of natfix could have worked with other exes, but the exe checksum must also be patched or you'll get checksum errors. Getting a tool for a any exe version shouldn't really be all that difficult.

Note: The newer version of natfix works differently, and will only work on the recently patched exes from here.
 

[leeor_net]

You know, I never thought of that, Hacker. Heh... I guess I should stop being so obsessive about it...  :heh: I guess the best thing for me to do right now is simply to remain here and be a part of everything.

I have some ideas about the multiplayer that I think would really work. First off, I know that Hooman is doing some work on a server type deally with SIGS/WON. (How's that going, BTW?)

My thoughts are that if Hooman can come up with functioning server, than I can come up with a new version of SIGS/WON that could be completely implemented into OPUTool (Alas, Tool does have a use!!). That was sort of my idea from the beginning but I just wasn't sure where to start.

Anyway, basically, if I know what to send to the server and to OP2 (to get the game started), than I can write a program that functions as the SIGS/WON client. Wham... we have a good multiplayer component that will hopefully work for everybody.

I also like to be very proactive about things. It gets me into trouble a lot of the time and I just need to chill. But, is there something that I can do that can help the site somehow? The community? Something that can help to satisfy that need to be proactive? (I really need to get my dev computer working again so that I can continue on OP:MIA)

:op2: Leeor Dicker

[Hooman]

Well, that SIGS/WON work has stalled for the moment. It should resume shortly though.

If the SIGS idea does work out, there is already a client built into OP2, and we don't need a seperate tool to interface with the server and start games. Besides, it'd be a cheap hack to get a game started through an external program. What might be nice is a standalone program that can handle the chat protocol. (Provided I can get that part of the server wroking. Maybe just game hosting for starters.) Or, a complete replacement of the SIGS/WON DLLs if people want a better/nicer interface. I'd suggest keeping the underlying protocol the same however. I don't really want to have to worry about version changes affecting the server. Especially since I'd like to have it possible to use a CD install to play on it. (Even if this doesn't really get any use).

Also, SIGS/WON will NOT solve NAT problems. It will help having a central server since anything that can always get around NAT needs some sort of central server. But the underlying network protocol doesn't make use of such a central server in a way that can get around NAT. Eventually I'm sure something can be done, but until that is fixed, only people with the proper port forwarding and NATfix can make use of it.

I guess there is a slight hope that the network protocol can work right with a central server present, but I'm doubting it right now. I think I have a lot of stuff to figure out first before I can really think of a decent way to get around the NAT issue. Hamachi and that OP2Sock idea would work, but I'm wondering if there is a simpler way.




 

[leeor_net]

Well, I never intended OPUTool to replace OP2's built-in functions. I guess you could say that I'm planning for OP:MIA's multiplayer components. Plus, SIGS/WON had the whole chat thing going for it and that is what I was most hoping to recreate with the added bonus of being able to join OP2/OP:MIA games (plus whatever other OP games that might be developed).

... NAT... you get one great thing at the expense of another... <sigh> I don't get it though... what is that modern games do that OP2 doesn't? And what is it about SIGS that can't get around it?

:op2: Leeor Dicker

[Leviathan]

SIGS and Outpost 2 protocal are seprate, SIGS is just telling OP2 to join or host a game I beleive.

[Hooman]

Ahh yes, it would be possible to have any new games use the SIGS protocol to find and connect to games. That can work quite nicely. I guess if I ever get this going, I'll be providing details and/or code to help with that.

And yeah, Outpost2 has it's own network protocol and SIGS uses another. Now, SIGS doesn't have a problem with NAT because it uses only outgoing connections (and TCP which is inherently bidirectinoal, so by default all data from the server comes back along the same connection). This is important since your routers that do NAT are seperate from your machine, and your machine has no idea what they're doing. They essentially work by extending the address space for IP addresses by using the port field. To do this, they need to modify both the IP and the port (source) of outgoing packets. If it receives a reply to one of these packets, it can look it up in it's tables to figure out where the initial data came from and where it needs to send replies back to. Now, if you're running some kind of server behind a router, there is no initial data being sent out so the router never gets a chance to build it's tables. If it receives an incomming packet, it doesn't know which internal IP to send it to. Which is why you have to configure port forwarding in your router, so it knows where to send things by default. The problem with OP2, is that it essentially treats every client in a server like fashion where it listens in on some fixed port for incomming data, but has never sent data out on that port. Also, OP2 doesn't reply using the source address on the packet, but instead replies to a fixed port number, so even if the other client had sent data out on some port, it doesn't reply with the correct (translated) port to make it back through the router.

I hope that helps. Anyways, SIGS just gives the IP, and maybe the port number of the host to the people who want to join. It would be entirely possible for the server to keep track of the source ports on the incomming packets, but that only gets you so far. There are three main ports that OP2 uses, in some order, and this could likely only get you through the first set of connections.

Technically OP2 isn't to blame since they've followed IP standards in their design. It's NAT that wasn't built according to the standard. Hence why it screws up so much. But then, I guess most applications work according to some unwritten standard that NAT made use of.

[BlackBox]

Actually, there is some sort of NAT RFC. I've seen it before (most routers do follow this standard, however there are a few that don't).

As for SIGS, yes, it would make starting games a little bit easier on new people. Especially if we could tie it into IRC somehow, (in the same program, OPUTool) it'd make using IRC a lot easier as well.

However a fix to get OP2 to work better with NAT needs to get done. Otherwise all the SIGS/integration stuff isn't much use.