Author Topic: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested  (Read 111514 times)

Offline Hooman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2015, 07:33:42 AM »
I was taking a look at your design document. Here are some of my thoughts.

First of all, I was impressed with how much you wrote. You've got a very good start on this.

You mention other games for inspiration. Perhaps this is better in an appendix. I still don't know what your game is about, and I'm not sure you want to define it in terms of other games. I think it's good to tie specific features of your game, already described in the design document, to another game for reference and inspiration, but not until the context of your game is given first. The reference could allow people to understand where the ideas are coming from, and perhaps get a better sense of how they should work, or how they'd be implemented. Granted, if they have to go play the other game to know, the design document is probably lacking. So perhaps this can be omitted entirely once the borrowed aspects are properly described.

You start talking about tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3, without explaining what is meant by this. Perhaps more background on this before discussing what will or won't be implemented. I would also recommend not being overly ambitious with a first project. Try to get something working first, then look to expand upon it. Sure, keep an eye out for what you might want to do, but you really need to limit scope early on. There can always be a version 2.0 later, but you need a 1.0 out first.

One question I have at this point, is whether the game will be real-time or turn based. That's usually one of the first things given when describing what a game is. I gather it's probably a strategy game, but outside of that, it's still unclear at this point. You list other games as inspiration, but they are not from a consistent genre. Ideas don't always mix easily between genres, so already this is starting to sound like it will be a bloated mess that doesn't fit well together. The earlier vague discussion of tiers adds to this. I think you need to nail down what type of game you'll be making first, then set the story, then continue on to define the features and how the player interacts with the game.

In the Game Foundation section, you list "Adaptive Multithreading" as a feature. This isn't a feature so much as a design detail. What exactly is this used to implement, and why? Why is it important this ends up in the game?

The User Interface description is good. Consider adding a prototype screenshot at some point, indicating where each component is.

If the user is able to freely move the camera, including zooming in and out, do you still need a minimap?

Are you sure you want to limit one unit per tile? Games like StarCraft don't do this for units, only buildings. Units are not tile aligned in Starcraft, but rather pixel aligned, and have variable sized bounding boxes to which other units are excluded. The tile based design is quite likely simpler, so it may be a good choice for you, I just want to point out the choice you're making here.

I have a feeling your mini map unit filtering option will be a support headache. I kind of expect people to accidentally activate filtering, and not know how to turn it off, and then wonder why they can't see certain things.

If you allow multiple building selection, keep in mind some buildings such as factories may be already busy with a long running process. What happens if you've selected one of these buildings and issue a new command? Does it override the current command? Is it ignored? Do you limit multi selection to idle factories? Do you set a queue that applies to the factory group, with the first available factory picking up the command?

You mention renaming. What is this for? What does it accomplish?

Formations can be fun, but are a non-critical feature. I think leave them in the design, but give them low priority. Perhaps set an explicit milestone that is late in the release, or after a functional demo is to be expected.

I really like the idea of AI assist. Again though, this seems to be a non-critical feature that can be given low priority. It could be a major selling point though if done right.

I rather like your roles for the 3 tank types. I like how you've differentiated their purpose. It gives a rock, paper, scissors feel, and in the reverse order of expectation (light kills medium, medium kill heavy, heavy kill light).

Multiple staging points sounds like it could be a burden. Maybe consider an alternative, like having a way of selecting all units of a specific type from a mass of units. I've seen a few games that allow for that. Maybe select first, and then hit a filter key, or have a key to select all units of a certain type on the screen.

The robot multi function sounds like a good concept, and a very appropriate guiding philosophy. They way it's written though I sort of expect to see specific examples, and none are given. Maybe the note is just in the wrong section.

Your population model sounds a bit too complex at the moment. Sounds like you're saying elderly people are useless (harsh, and won't earn you any brownie points with some people), and yet colonists don't die on their own, so you're pretty much leaving the player to murder their elderly citizens. Are you sure this is a good idea?

Is a Robo-constructor always needed to build a kit? Do the tubes only save travel time to and from the factory?

Why do command centers build tubes? That seems to seriously weaken the unit that deploys tubes. Do structures come with free connecting tubes like in Outpost2?

And while on the subject of tubes, are tubes shared between colonies (like in Outpost 2), or are they owned by a specific player? The Outpost 2 behaviour seems a little odd. It stems from tubes just being a part of the map, with nothing tying them back to a player.

I know there's more in your document, but I'm going to stop here for now. Your document is already quite long.

Good work with what you have so far. Also, since you're keeping a change log, I'd like to comment that it isn't at all out of place to put such a document under version control.

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2015, 11:22:08 AM »
Thanks for the lengthy reply Hooman, I'll try and answer each point.

Yep, and tons more writing to go :) I've only got about 10% of my writing up at the moment. Clearly I will need to consider making it less verbose and use fewer words to say more to make reading it not a chore, but I'll work that in as I go through it making changes.

Hmm, perhaps you are right, the game inspiration should be put in an index near the end.

What do you mean by the "context of the game" should be created first before listing inspiration?

I actually don't really know why I sourced the games as inspiration, other than when I see games on Kickstarters that are inspired by X, Y and Z, that I felt that I should do the same. As an example: the game Convoy is inspired by Mad Max and FTL. Though I suppose a feature breakdown from those games may not be necessary.

If you visit the Information Archive, I left an explanation of Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 there. However, I'll reiterate it here for convenience. Tier 1 (Planetfall) is where you land on a new world, and create your first colony. You have to struggle to survive, battling against disasters and internal strife to maintain your colony. The original goal of Tier 1 was to create a colonization convoy of vehicles and send it out to create a new colony on the planet. Tier 2 (Governance) is where the first colony has thrived to the point of creating another colony, and the need is for a Planetary Governor to control all the colonies, and deal with the logistics of supporting multiple colonies and creating new colonies. The governor would then get the colonies to work together to mutual goals. The original goal of Tier 2 was to construct an orbital space station and construct a new colonization starship to colonize a new world. Tier 3 (Presidency) is where you now have multiple colonies on multiple worlds, and thus you now take on the role of Empire President. You must manage the logistics of multiple planets, colonization of new worlds, and the construction of star fleets. The original goal of Tier 3 was to reunite with Earth, that you lost contact with and see what happened to them.

Yes, I am having some troubles being TOO ambitious with my first project... which is why I broke the game design idea up into the three tiers, rather than design from the beginning to include all of them in the base game. Though... my design may still be too ambitious. As I work through it, I'll likely find things that don't make sense and remove them or figure out a novel way of doing something differently to hopefully reduce complexity.

The name of the design document is after all, Unnamed RTS (Real-Time Strategy) :) However, I am aware that putting too many features from turn-based games into a real-time strategy game is very dangerous, as it can increase the computations per second that a player must do to play the game (as described in the episode of Depth v Complexity by Extra Credits). So, I'm trying to only take specific ideas from it rather than the whole idea that wouldn't work in a RTS.

I also do agree, that often ideas do not mix well between genres, however, some ideas do mix well and thus sometimes its worth a person's time to see if something would work or not. I can always decide later that a specific idea is other a poor fit or would take too much effort to try and integrate it.

Well, the concept behind Adaptive Multithreading is where a program runs a "test" to determine how many cores and threads a computer has available, and then splits the work for the game among each thread. If a computer has 4 threads, this would utilize all 4 threads. If the computer had 16, it would utilize all 16. I suppose Game Foundation is a bit of a misnomer; perhaps Game Engine is better? The purpose of this feature would be to interact with the Main Event Loop, and reduce bottlenecks by distributing the work over more threads, so that more powerful machines with more threads could be fully utilized by the game and thus run far more efficiently on their machines.

Yes, I'll take some time when I have a chance to create a mock-interface image in GIMP to give a basic idea of what I intend to go for, once I've nailed down in a more permanent manner how I want the UI to look.

I didn't think of that (camera and minimap). It might not be useful to have a minimap after all then. Though, the only reason I felt that it might be nice is to give a player an early warning by briefly looking at the minimap to see if hostiles were nearby. Though that could also be accomplished by the player actively looking which might be a better use of UI space (as the minimap would eat up a portion of the interface to have it). Thanks for pointing that out, Hooman.

Hmm, another good point that I hadn't considered. It might be better to allow units to occupy whatever space their mesh occupies, while structures themselves occupy a set number of squares for simplicity. I had decide to do both, because I thought that if the structures occupy a fixed number of tiles, then units should as well. But, I suppose it would make sense that units shouldn't be forced into a single tile unless it was because everything was made of 2D sprites.

Yes, I agree that having a minimap filtering option might be a royal headache for all involved; the same goes for overlays for the main view. The intent behind these was to make it so that something was easier to see, by removing other things. Though, if you accidently did enable the filter without knowing the UI, then it would be a chore to address.

For multiple building selection it would depend on the button held that determines what happens. If you have multiple selection and click something, it overrides. If you have multiple building selection and shift click something it adds to the queue. If you have multiple building selection and you CTRL click, you erase everything in the queue, except the unit you clicked on (which may be difficult or impossible). Override simply replaces whatever the factory was doing with the unit clicked on. Addition causes the unit you clicked on to be created after the current unit being built. Selective Removal is where a queue has multiple different types of units in it (ie build tank a, build tank b, then build tank c and repeat) and you want to change it to only produce one unit and remove all the other units in the queue, rather than changing each queue manually.

Otherwise, you do make some good points on multiple building selection that I'll look into and consider. Thanks for suggesting them.

The naming option is there for some reason. Its clearly not something I thought through; I'll remove it.

Well, the reason I had wanted formations is so that all the units move together at the same time, rather than charging the enemy lines as an unorganized mess of units. Its hard to create a good strategy, if your units aren't behaving. The other reason is that the AI player is often not handicapped by the pathfinding system as it moves each unit individually, rather than moving all the units in a large clump with a single order for all the units. The formation idea is to try and overcome problems with any pathfinding system so that it is possible to maintain order and stability with your armies and ensure that a strategy you have can be pulled off. In any game I've played with formations, it is easier to control a large number of units and ensure that they all reach the destination at the same time. This is important for attacking a well-defended defensive line, where if you move in formation, you can overcome the defenses, but if your units decide to go there single file, one at a time, they'll get picked off. Thus I do see formations as a moderate to high importance to the game, as no pathfinding system is perfect and as more events pile up in the event queue, the longer it takes to process commands and thus the more likely units will pathfind single file, one at a time.

I agree AI Assistance could be a major selling point "if" done right. However, I also agree its not a massive priority either.

I like that idea. I agree multiple staging points could be a real burden on a player and be pointless complexity at the same time. It would be better if you could select all units of a specific type with a button click. I believe in StarCraft, as an example, if you double-click a marine, it selects all nearby marines. So something like that could be entirely feasible.

Yes, I like the idea of the rock-paper-scissors feel too. Though, I will need to balance it to ensure that each are powerful against their specific target, but not overpowered. But that's something that can be done later, when I actually have the units implemented to do testing with. The reason I did it this way was because in Outpost 2, hardly anyone would use medium tanks. This way now each unit chassis is important for different strategies, rather than players only using light tanks or only using heavy tanks. Its also so that if a player decides to focus solely on a specific strategy (ie mob rush you with Light Tanks), you could counter it with Heavy Tanks. If that player decided to mob rush you with Heavy Tanks, you could counter it with Medium Tanks. If the player decided to destroy you from afar with Medium Tanks, you could counter them by using Light Tanks. Should make multiplayer quite a bit more interesting.

The specific examples of robot multifunction are listed in the Unit Purpose section. As an example, the Robo-Worker; the Robo-Worker is basically the Bulldozer and Earthworker combined. Or the Robo-Explorer is a Scout and Surveyor combined (got this idea from Outpost 1 as the Explorer is just that, a scout and surveyor combined). Or the Robo-Hauler is a Cargo Truck and Evacuation Transport combined (depending on the cargo currently carried). This is so that there are fewer units that a player needs to learn and reduce the overall unit complexity by combining two units with similar roles together into a single unit.

The population model has gone through about 6 revisions already, and is likely going to be still revised. The most recent older population model was quite a bit more complex which caused the simplification here. The old model was where you had 8 colonist types = Children, Untrained Adults, Workers, Engineers, Scientists, Elderly Workers, Elderly Engineers, and Elderly Scientists. The idea was that Elderly people as they are older, are more likely to get hurt and thus should consume Medicine faster. Similarly Children get hurt easily as well, and thus they consume Medicine faster. I may revert it back, or make further changes. The main reason I had 8 colonists types was because I wanted death to be controllable by the player. And as old age often results in death the quickest, I felt that having an elderly category would be appropriate. However, it does cause a massive increase in complexity in having them. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to address this problem.

The Robo-Constructor can build a kit but isn't required. The purpose behind this is to address three major problems: 1) In initial planetfall, you won't have Robo-Constructors as they don't come with the Starship, and are designed on the actual planet. Therefore, you need a way to deploy structures without having a Robo-Constructor. 2) However, in order to create a new colony, a structure kit would have to travel quite the distance and thus building the tubes all the way there would be prohibitively expensive and thus a Robo-Constructor is needed. 3) Certain structures may be difficult to place via the tube-method, such as Mining Facilities out near volcanoes; the mine itself may be safe from lava, but the tubes will likely get destroyed. However, what this means is that instead of requiring tons of "ConVecs" all the time, you only really need them for initial base construction and the occasional structure off the tube network. However, again, the Robo-Constructor has other functions it performs such as repairing structures and demolishing structures.

Similarly above, initial planetfall means you lack a Robo-Worker and thus you need to construct tubes somehow without a vehicle present. I had thought that the Command Center "may" be a good choice for it as it would be one of the first structures built and thus it could fabricate the necessary parts to build tubes. Now, this doesn't mean that the Robo-Worker is useless when it comes to tubes. The Robo-Worker, can place tubes wherever it feels like, while the Command Center would only be able to attach new tubes to existing tubes, one at a time. Thus time-wise, it would be more efficient to build tubes with a Robo-Worker, than it is with the Command Center, but if an enemy destroyed all your Robo-Workers, you wouldn't be in serious trouble.

Structures do not come with free tubes. This is so that you have more control over placement. I hated in Outpost 2 where I'd want to put my Guard Post right up to a wall, but couldn't because the free tube was in the way.

Basically the intent behind both tubes and structures being built in two ways is to overcome the problem where a disaster or the enemy destroys your vehicles and thus preventing a "soft" gameover as you rely on those units. With two ways, you have options and it up to the player to choose which option is best for the situation.

Haven't figured out tube ownership yet or even what happens if you connect two enemy colonies together.

Thanks again for the input, Hooman!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 11:30:19 AM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline Hooman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2015, 03:12:02 PM »
Some good responses. Now you have to add them to the design doc. :p

Offline DranKof

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Personal Text goes here
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2015, 12:35:07 AM »
I attempted to read everything above and failed. Sirbomber expressed why.  :P

The only things that need to be different from OP2 I think, are:
+ Build queues
+ Rally points
+ Garage automation
+ Select more than 32 units
+ Auto-repair for Convecs + spiders; better enemy detection and auto-engaging over short distances
+ Cap on maximum food per agridome
+ Various morale tweaks already addressed
+ Optimized mining design (read bottom)

Some ideas I liked were:
+ Earthworkers automated, you just plot where things go and the robots do rest
+ Alarms and flashy lights: I'm sure they won't be annoying once things are tested and adjusted; they'll probably only be part of campaign maps because in multiplayer people wouldn't want to bother, most likely
+ Evacuation Transports in multiplayer to transfer population to other players: it boggles my mind vanilla OP2 doesn't have this because it has everything similar

On Mining:
+ It doesn't matter whether cargo trucks drop their ore in a pit or if the entire butt end goes into the building, all that matters is how long the animation lasts: the entire rear part going into the building is super-cool, I'm sure they designed the time cost to decrease ore harvesting speed per building which is kinda a good thing if you ask me. But to make sure there aren't 3 smelters per mine, you make the mine also take the same long time...that will also make people stop caring so much about the total ore output of mines as it would effectively divide them by 3 and prevent 3 smelters per mine. Also the more time cargo truck butts spend underground "being processed", the less important it is to have mines and smelters next to one another as you'd have more time for the other trucks to run back and forth, so having mines and smelters a short distance apart would become less and less of an issue. If you're worried keeping the butt end underground for so long would reduce ore income just increase the amount of ore/processed resource per truckload. Easy as pie.

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2015, 08:30:45 AM »
Not sure we should be aiming at an Outpost 2 clone with a 3D engine. I'd like to see some innovation to the way all of this works. Taking a few pages from Outpost 2 would make a lot of sense but it would be nice to go back to the roots of the series and go for a more sophisticated colony simulation with much, much less of a focus on combat.

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2015, 11:43:48 AM »
@Drankof;
Thanks for the input

@leeor_net;

Trying to do underground tunnels and above ground stuff in an RTS is completely unmanageable though. Earth 2150 attempted it, and it only used tunnels as an alternative way to get units from Point A to Point B, and hardly anyone used the feature as when you are in the tunnel view, you have no idea what is going on above ground, and its easy to get lost underground trying to figure out where you are going.

I'm not intending to do an Outpost 2 in a 3D engine. Yes I'm taking a lot of inspiration from it, but its going to be quite different. I'm actually trying to develop a more balanced game where both colony simulation and combat have equal importance in the game.

However, for sake of discussion, what do you think would make it a more sophisticated colony simulation?
-> Would tracking food, water, air, and wastes make it better?
-> Would tracking sickness, disease and plagues make it better?
-> Would having multiple categories of colonists, such as Babies, Children, Young Adults, Workers, Scientists, and Elderly people make it better?
-> Would having both natural disasters and manmade disasters (ie a lab experiment gone wrong) make it better?
-> Would having a supply/demand type system in place for consumer goods make it better (ie Colonists demand Luxury Goods)?
Etc...?
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2015, 01:12:33 PM »
Quote
Trying to do underground tunnels and above ground stuff in an RTS is completely unmanageable though.

This isn't what I was suggesting. There's no need to do anything underground. In the context of an RTS it would be, as stated, unmanageable. You can stick with above ground only structures like in Outpost 2 which makes sense if a planet like Mars was selected (far enough away from the host star that it's not flooded with radiation but not so far that an immense amount of energy is needed to keep it habitable).

All of your suggestions make sense. I don't know if 'better' is the right way to look at it. What is fun? I find city management simulations fun. SimCity did a great job of making it 'real time' by simply automating turns. Outpost 2 did something similar, but they also added real-time movement of micro managed objects like vehicles and individual structure placement.

The addition of having to manage life support systems, agriculture, morale (which would be nice if it was a little more in depth), health, disasters and supply/demand I think would be fun, but it needs to be carefully balanced otherwise you get a tedious game (SimTower comes to mind).

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2015, 01:26:41 PM »
Okay.

In my experience having games that forces you to micromanage everything gets tedious quickly. Its great for the first hour or so of gameplay, but after that it gets monotonous... like grinding in World of Warcraft. I want to try and strive for a healthy middle ground between too little and too much. Its also a major reason why I hardly ever finish my Civilization games or Alpha Centauri games; it just gets too monotonous in the endgame to keep me interested.

The key thing is in making the game fun and challenging. Why both? Well, if a game isn't fun you aren't going to want to do it at all. But, once you find it fun, you'll want to be challenged, and thus having something to strive for with your own personal gameplay goals is a good idea.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2015, 04:55:54 PM »
All valid points.

There's a time in the progression of a game where the micromanagement of certain things does get to be tedious. That's where simplifying the interface comes in handy... production queues and, since we're on the subject of Outpost, can even implement AI Helpers that can take care of the little stuff for you. There's also a point where you'll want a game to end so you can start it up new again.

SimCity again comes to mind (I'm thinking the older ones, not the new ones). There was a point where there wasn't much else you could do. Your city was built, it was flourishing, you'd covered the entire map and optimized the zones as much as you could. To make things interesting you'd have to start a disaster or two (or 20) to level half the city so you'd have to rebuild. Or just start a new city. Building from nothing is where the fun is in those games.

That's the tricky part for me. I wouldn't know how to keep it fun after you've built yourself a thriving colony. After you're thriving... then what?

This of course is not addressing the combat aspect which Outpost 2 added. But that's a different subject.

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2015, 06:52:50 PM »
Also very good points.

I also do find it more entertaining starting from scratch, but that is often because when you are starting from scratch, the entire game's "progression" is available to you and you have constant demands on your time, your ingame resources, and you must make tough choices. Later on in the game, for most games, there isn't much to do, you have nearly unlimited resources, and there aren't any tough choices remaining. If the game continued to challenge and interest a player, then likely the endgame would be just as entertaining as the early game.

The only real way I can think of doing that, is by introducing spectacle creep. By this I mean that as the player gets bigger and more powerful, bigger and greater challenges must await. And once those are beaten, even bigger ones beyond that. That's kind of why I thought of the tiered-based gameplay. The first tier involves managing a single colony. The second tier involves managing an entire planet. And the third tier involves managing an entire space empire.

The problem with Outpost 2's combat is that either the combat system was tacked onto the colony simulator, or the colony simulator was tacked onto the combat.

Because really, thematically, if two factions are in a crisis situation, they wouldn't attack eachother; if a giant meteor approached earth, I doubt the countries of this world would continue fighting and instead cooperate and try to get off together. They (eden/Plymouth) were wasting the equivalent resources of 10 starships to build combat units to attack eachother (based on the costs for each starship component, the rockets to launch them, and the resource modules all added together equates the amount of resources wasted combined by both factions to build lynxes, panthers, tigers, guard posts, and arachnids) wouldn't make sense. The two factions up to that point hadn't declared war (as their comms satellite was unavailable) and thus had no real need to build weapons of war. So, in this case, I feel the combat was tacked onto the colony simulator.

Not to mention that the colony aspects are almost always ignored in multiplayer as being a hindrance or a nuisance to manage morale and build an army. So, in this case, I feel the colony simulator was tacked onto the combat.

EDIT:
I haven't been getting much done on the Design Document lately. I've been trying to think over Hooman's question on Tube Ownership, and the possible situation that could occur if two rival colonies built a tube connection to them, linking the two colonies. Since my idea is that you can build tubes or structures without the required robot, would that mean a player could build a structure in an enemy's base, as that base was connected to the tubes? If that shouldn't be allowed, then some kind of tube ownership is required. However, that introduces a new problem, which is how does one keep a tube under their ownership. So I've been considering things like have combat droids/soldier colonists that are built and deployed to tubes, and it is they that control the tubes. And then weird invasion rules with those things.

Basically, I'm trying to unravel this huge mess of complexity which is why work on the Design Document has temporarily stalled.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 06:58:05 PM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2015, 02:05:09 AM »
Victory is MINE!

It took me 4 hours, but I think I finally squashed that fucking computer virus. Damn that thing had a lot of backups. 3 different backups in three different locations. Real huge hassle. Just finished deleting the files, restarted computer and everything has remained gone.

So... um... I had planned on getting some work done, but the past 4 hours sapped all my energy and thus I'm going to bed now.

However, I think I figured out a tentative solution to the tube ownership issue, but I'll post that tomorrow.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2015, 02:33:33 PM »
Easiest way to squash a difficult bug? Wipe machine and start over.

Anyway, to address the comment of tube ownership:

It's easy -- tubes built by a player are owned by said player. So yes, you could build tubes from both sides and they would connect but because the tubes are owned by different players, they are 'sealed' (air lock perhaps?)

If you make tube ownership straight forward like this you don't have the problem of being able to build a structure in an enemy base because even though it would be connected to tubes it wouldn't be under your control. Either A) it remains disabled because there's no connection with you or B) it goes under their control because it's connected to their command center. I actually see it as a great way to 'gift' a structure to another player in cooperative modes.


Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2015, 03:46:14 PM »
Okay, so then puzzle this out:

If a player builds tubes that are not connected with the rest of the tube network, who owns them?

Or, another situation where tubes, were owned by an enemy, but you destroyed a structure, thus cutting those old tubes off from their network; does that mean that the other player automatically gains ownership, or does ownership remain in the player who built them?

The final problem is that if you are connected to their base, via their tubes, and you destroy their command center, does that mean you automatically inherit all their structures?

Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2015, 05:25:19 PM »
Tubes built out in the middle of nowhere are owned by the player that built them.

Tubes and structures remain the under the ownership of the player who built them and whatever network they were connected to originally. If you connected your tubes to another player and then destroyed their command center, the colonists in those structures aren't going to just lay down and hand the structures over to you.

On the other hand, if you build a structure connected to their network, not yours, there aren't any colonists until the structure is complete and connected to the network. At that point the colonists can enter the structure and thus it becomes that colony's structure.

I can see the potential of using computer viruses to 'infect' structures and to force colonists out of them thereby allowing your own colonists to enter and then take ownership... but that may be starting to take it too far.

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2015, 06:22:04 PM »
Interesting input.

I was personally considering having combat droids used to control tubes and invade enemy structures, similar to how Earth 2140 did structure capturing mechanics. So when the two colonies would initially connect, your droids and their droids will line up on their own respective tubes facing eachother, and whoever won, would determine who could go about capturing structures. To maintain an enemy tube or structure, you'd have to keep at least one droid in it. However, an opposing player could send in droids of their own and take back the tubes or structures. Additionally, I had thought of allowing a player to garrison several combat droids in a structure and thus make it harder to capture. If this was in place, two rival players wouldn't want to connect the bases together.

I don't see combat droids as being too far fetched as there are some limited examples in todays world of robots with the ability to move, recognize voice commands and perform various tasks, so its not a huge stretch to think that this technology could be improved upon to create automated combat droids that are given orders and defend a group of colonists with their robotic existence.

However, I can see the benefits from this discussion of ways of gifting structures or possibly even people to an allied player in multiplayer. 
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2015, 06:38:12 PM »
That's what I'm thinking -- coop modes. As for players in conflict, I think it would be simple enough to have 'sealed ends' on tubes that just happen to meet. That's how I would solve it though.

As for robot sophistication, with today's tech we have robots that literally drive themselves around on roads (Google's car's and yes, they are technically speaking robots) among other things. And they did that in less than 10 years. If we're to assume say 50 - 100 years of development, I think it's far to say that we'd have far, far more sophisticated robots.

Look at 100 years ago... we barely had cars. Now we have cars with computing power that rivals the super computers of yesteryear and that are so efficient they can run for literally hundreds of thousand of miles (I drove a Toyota to 350,000 and it still ran like it was new) but 100 years ago you needed to rebuild an engine every 10,000 miles.

50 years ago we had computers that were the size of buildings that could barely do what a calculator today can do. We have computing devices that fit in the palm of our hand that do more than what a mainframe could do 10 years ago.

It's hard to predict what technology we'll be able to develop over the next 50 - 100 years but I think it's safe to say we'll have robots that do a lot more than what we've got today.

Offline Sirbomber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3238
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2015, 09:11:09 PM »
I feel like there might be too much designer "wouldn't it be cool if" going on in this thread, so if I may I'd like to interject with a player's perspective.  What you're saying about tube ownership and all the headaches involved just don't sound like fun gameplay to me.  I'm going to be busy doing so many things at any given time: managing my army, building my base, researching, exploring, growing my population, keeping morale up, and the list goes on.  The last thing I need is to have to constantly be checking to make sure my tubes aren't being filled with enemy Battlebots.  When would this ever be useful except when someone is cheesing?  What's to stop a supposed ally from tubing to your base, spamming Battlebots, and breaking the alliance?

In an RTS, the most limited resource is the player's attention span.  Don't waste it with minutiae, or your game won't be fun.

"As usual, colonist opinion is split between those who think the plague is a good idea, and those who are dying from it." - Outpost Evening Star

Outpost 2 Coding 101 Tutorials

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2015, 11:56:22 PM »
^^^

What he said.

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2015, 02:18:09 AM »
Fair point Sirbomber. I hadn't considered that. You are right, that would add an annoying complexity to the game, and would make it chore-ish to play and thus detract from the fun. I appreciate the input.

I'm working on currently combing through all the various input over the past couple months and putting it together in a central place before doing more work on the Design Document. Lots of good stuff already noticed, while combing through it.

Keep it up guys!
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2015, 05:09:09 PM »
Looking forward to seeing something put together.

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2015, 09:42:36 PM »
Well, I got through all the stuff, and will work on getting stuff added/changed to the design document tomorrow with the notes I took from this thread. Going through it was a lot of great advice and great ideas and I again appreciate the time everyone took to post things.

I found something of interest, leeor_net; I think the game was actually supposed to identify the player as the Captain, rather than Commander (you had mentioned earlier in the thread that the player should be announced as the Commander). There is an image here on OPU, where it states its the Captain's log for the Plymouth colony. Link = http://www.outpost2.net/images/Wallpaper/OP2Box2.jpg ; In the bottom righthand corner is the Captain's Log, indicating that the leader of the Plymouth colony was a Captain, rather than a Commander. Unless of course the Captain was our leader, and we were making choices on their behalf???

Also in a different picture, the Eden leader is identified as a Colonel = http://www.outpost2.net/images/Wallpaper/OP2Box1.jpg
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 02:01:02 AM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2015, 10:59:28 AM »
That's the box art... I'm not sure you can count that as cannon considering artists kind of do their own thing.

Besides, the computer calls the player Commander in both games.

Ultimately not sure it's really that important of a detail.

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2015, 01:34:12 PM »
It is true that its a minor detail, and therefore Commander works fine for me.

I've decided to completely redesign the design document from the ground up. I had considered "refactoring" it but I've considered my options and feel that rebuilding it from scratch will both be quicker and allow me to introduce several ways of making it easier to read. A major problem with it currently is that it is TOO verbose and its difficult for even me to follow it and understand what I'm reading... and I wrote it, and thus can't imagine how difficult it is for others.

I've also been heavily thinking on much of the feedback in this thread and some things I've been working on and have decided to make some large sweeping changes to many of the features I listed. The reason for this is Sirbomber's recent comment about a player's attention span being a limited resource in an RTS. A lot of my features, in their current state, would needlessly use up a player's attention span and thus I want to change these things so that a player's attention span is solely focused on the important things and reduce the number of things that are important to make gameplay much more manageable.

I'll keep the old one up if you want to compare the two, as I shift information from the old one to the new one, redesigning it as I go.

New Design Document Link (with an extended story) is here = https://docs.google.com/document/d/11uDn9Oc2JOYWZBCtYKGwpLUz9ZTYVg3sevX3WWLkQDY/edit?usp=sharing
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2352
  • OPHD Lead Developer
    • LairWorks Entertainment
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2015, 06:42:52 PM »
SirBomber is right in terms of an RTS... but with the features you've been talking about, are you sure it's an RTS you actually want to make? Some of these features would be well suited to a turn based game.

Offline lordpalandus

  • Banned
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2015, 07:36:01 PM »
I would prefer an RTS. I generally don't like turn-based strategy games... well except for chess.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html