Author Topic: More Vista  (Read 3337 times)

Offline White Claw

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« on: March 24, 2007, 04:00:35 PM »
Speaking of learning and coding, I was installing Visual Studio 6 on my new computer (with Vista) and it's yet another program that is incompatible. In fact, when I installed it, Vista popped up a warning that said something to the effect of "This program has known compatibility issues and doesn't work."

I installed it anyway and I can't get it to compile. The reason why it won't compile is because the files don't appear on the hard drive. They show up in the "Open->File" menu in Vis C++, but I can't go into the C: drive and actually see them. I've tried searching the hard drive in case Vista is doing something weird with a user directory, but still can't find the files.

I can open them, edit them, and save them with no problems. But the linker fails every time because as far as Vista is concerned, the files don't exist. Bizzare...

Has anyone tried installing Visual C++ in a virtual machine? Do you think that might work?

Offline Arklon

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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2007, 06:45:07 PM »
Ow. Vista'd.
I wonder if Code::Blocks works in Vista... you might want to try that.

Offline White Claw

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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2007, 09:18:06 AM »
I installed Virtual Machine 2007. It also says it doesn't support Vista Home Basic/Premium, but does support Vista business. It didn't specifically state that it would not work with the Home version, so I installed it anyway and it works fine.

I got Win 2000 up and running on it. I'd rather have Win98 so that I can play all of my old games, but it's hard to find a CD rom driver for my drive that works under DOS. (Eh? What's that?) And the version of Win98 that I own doesn't do CD boot, but my Win2K does.

Anyway, Dev Studio seems to work just fine under the virtual machine. I'm surpised at how well VM actually works. And it boots up quick... Getting the second virtual hard drive working was another story...

Offline Leviathan

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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2007, 06:32:10 AM »
I just installed Vista.

Offline xxxxxs

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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2007, 04:06:00 PM »
do you want a good advice?
uninstall vista and put XP because vista BLOWS

vista was made to run with modern programs with the look of vista like...
enterprise office 2007
IE7
and so go on...

just try and follow my advice...VISTA BLOWS...
 

Offline White Claw

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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2007, 07:41:51 PM »
Okay. If you would like to purchase me a copy of XP and mail it to me, I'd give it a try. Though I think XP looks like it was sponsored by Cartoon Network.

Of course, I also have to ask of you've actually used Vista for any period of time or if you're just going off of someones internet rant? I could probably find you just as many complaints about Windows 3.1 and I bet they would read almost exactly the same way. And I could probably dig up the same stuff about Win95 vs Win 3.1. I'm not saying that Vista is the ultimate, awsome answer. I'm just saying that I can't imagine you have any new complaints about Vista that I haven't heard before. (About any software product.)

Lev - I managed to get my Vista and other Win computers to talk over the network. They don't browse properly, but you can still share and map. I also think Vista expects a newer network setup (hub) than what I have though. Yes, I still have a wired hub.  :whistle:  

Offline Oprime

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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2007, 08:53:21 PM »
I installed the vista RC for a bit. I liked it but since it was beta it didn't run very quickly and had driver issues. Now that the main game I play (FFXI) works on vista I'm looking at getting Vista Ultimate. Vista isn't as expensive as I was thinking it was gonna be. I'll need to get more ram before I take the plunge tho. 2GB of DDR500 should do the trick.

*edit* I noticed my sig was a little outdated so I updated it. Found out that thermaltake made new clips for my CPU cooler so I can use it with AM2 and 775 so I'll probly upgrade the CPU/GPU/RAM/MOBO soon.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 08:58:12 PM by Oprime »
CPU: AMD Phenom II 940BE
RAM: Patriot Viper 4GB (2GB x2) DDR2 1066Mhz
Motherboard: MSI K9A2 Platinum
Case: Thermaltake Armor Plus+
Power Supply: Themermatake ToughPower 1200Watt PSU
Hard Drive: Fujitsu 15k SAS SCSI 74GB/148GB Raid 0 @ 189MBps
Moniter: LG Flatron 20.1in Widescreen LCD 8ms 1400:1 Contrast ratio w/ F engine
GFX Card: 4 ATI Radeon 4870 1GB GDDR5 CrossFireX
DVD Burners: 2x SONY DVD-RW
Speakers[/b] Logitech Z-5500 505Watt 5.1 Surround
CPU Heatsink[/b]ZeroTerm NV120
OS[/b]Windows Vista Home Premium x64
:P I'm a Hardware freak ><

Offline Hooman

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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2007, 11:58:18 PM »
First off I've never used Vista. (Although I am generally a Microsoft fan). I also supect I'll be avoiding Vista for quite some time to come. (Not that I have the money for upgrading to be an option right now anyways).

I'm sure there is hatemail about all versions of Windows, but I think the recent arguments against XP and Vista are inherently different than previous arguments, and certainly very valid. Generally when you upgrade, you are offered more features, and may have to put up with new bugs. But with XP and Vista, Microsoft has been adding stuff that can be purposefully bad for the end user.

I'm rather fond of XP as it certainly does add a few nice features, but what happens when they no longer support it? Will you still be able to activate it after you install? Or will it just be a crippled OS that doesn't run for more than 30 days before requring a new install. (Or you'd need to do something that's most likely illegal). Same deal with Vista. Basically you no longer really own the OS that you "bought".

Activation is mainly there to prevent pirating (which happens anyways), but I kinda wonder if they'll ever use it to force you to upgrade to the latest greatest copy of Windows by refusing to activate old copies of Windows. Mostly though it's just a pain to legitimate users of the end software. Especially if you plan to upgrade hardware, or want an installation that isn't connected to the internet.

The thing that many people are against Vista for is DRM (Digital Rights Management). Definately a lot of hatemail on that one. Although, some of it seems a little uninformed. The DRM scheme is supposed to only allow high definition (above DVD quality) playback on supported devices. If the device doesn't support it, then it purposefully degrades quality (down to DVD quality) or prevents playback entirely (but this sounds like the less likely option, and is apparently set by the content publisher). I've also heard that Vista performs self checks to see if you're trying to defeat the DRM system, and spends CPU cycles doing so. You can probably guess why many people find this offensive.

Now that isn't all Microsoft's fault. The content providers want this protection built in. If Microsoft is going to support the new media, they supposedly need to support the whole DRM scheme. What many people are really objecting to is the DRM scheme. Although, there is speculation that the self checks actually take a significant amount of time, and there is the issue of of whether or you have to pay the price of those self checks whether or not you're using the feature. I've read one article that suggested you did, but it seemed a little overly hateful, so I'm not too sure. I've also heard various concerns about hardware needing to meet certain standards. The whole DRM scheme isn't too useful if some expansion card can pick the data off a system bus, or a device reads it from the video card output. I've heard stuff suggesting many hardware devices would need to meet new requirements, mainly to ensure system security, but this doesn't seem to be the case implied by most sources. What is required however, is that the monitor must support decrypting the video channel to get the protected content to play. This means you'd need a new monitor to support playback at full high definition resolution. If your monitor can't accept and decrypt the video channel, then it gets degraded before being sent so it can't just be picked up off the system bus or video cable in the original high definition. This sort of leads me to wonder if people will try hacking their monitors though.

Buying a new monitor that supports that is expensive. I've also heard further concerns that a lot of old monitors (and other hardward devices) will be thrown out as people upgrade to comply with Vista's requirements. Sounds like this rush to upgrade may have been a little overhyped due to all the misinformation, but still, there was the issue of what happens with all that computer waste that will be generated. Electronics usually contain toxic elements. The solder used to bind the components to the boards often contains lead. But, you shouldn't have too worry about that too much since a lot of that waste gets shipped off to poor third world countries where it won't hurt you. So very moral. (Maybe people should pay more attention to computer and electronics recycling).


I've also heard a little note about how Vista handles games that people here might want to take note of. Apparently there are parental controls that can be used to disallow kids from playing games with bad ratings on them. If the game isn't rated, it's basically counted as adult only. A lot of parents will probably have settings to disallow such games being played. Sounds good, but only if getting the game rated isn't a problem. Seems getting those ratings can be a rather expensive process however. Pretty much only the big studios with money will really be able to pay for this. The built at home variety just won't run if the parental controls are used. Big businesses will probably approve, as they'll have less competition to worry about from small startups.


I've also heard there's currently a lot of issues with driver support. Many companies haven't yet got working/bug free drivers for their devices out. It's also supposedly more expensive and time consuming for some to companies (graphics related) to produce those drivers.


So yes, in short, there are a number of things in Vista that concern me. Some of which I feel are counter to how good software should operate. If I'm going to upgrade, I certainly won't do it anytime soon. I'd rather wait and give them time to work out the issues, or maybe I just won't upgrade at all.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 12:01:27 AM by Hooman »

Offline White Claw

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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 05:34:08 PM »
Yeah. I'm just saying that there is always some new complaint about an OS when it comes out.

I find any crippling device on software a pain in my @$$ since I pay for my software then have to go through hoops to get it working. And I know people get hacks and get it working for free with no hassle. So it's the standard act of making the regular joe pay the price for someone else stealing. I have several old games that I can never play again because I've lost the code or I've lost the booklet to look up the appropriate code word.

I think the only thing that really ticks me off about Vista so far is that it seems flashy for the sake of being flashy. Like they had to up the graphics content for the end user who has no idea. But then again...

Anyway, I didn't intend to come in here as a defender of Vista. I just wanted some help other than "Vista is crap".
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 05:40:51 PM by White Claw »

Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 07:23:45 PM »
When you say the files don't appear, you mean the .obj outputs from the compiler? Or what?

As far as I feel about Vista, it's not very good. The computer I am using came preloaded with Vista (HP laptop). I looked at it a little bit, but I didn't like it very much.

First of all it uses an immense amount of ram when idle. My system was using 700 mb of ram at idle (Windows + some of the background trash that HP preinstalls).

And yes, it is rather flashy for flashy's sake. I can't say that it looks that spectacular (and they stole a few ideas from other people's window managers -- the sidebar looks like something Mac OS has had for a long time, and some of the UI elements vaguely resembled KDE)
The 3d window switching is nothing special when you can install Compiz on a Linux system and spin 6 virtual desktops on a cube with very little processing overhead.

I couldn't find anything (common settings and such were moved around and renamed). I can't stand the Vista start menu. The User Account Control turned out to be more than a little annoying.

After a few hours, I gave up, started up my desktop and proceeded to create an XP disc with my motherboard's SATA drivers slipstreamed in (thanks to nLite). Within a couple hours after that my system was up and running, with XP SP2. I saw a major performance increase, and still do. I am typing this post on that computer right now.

And as far as DRM goes, I can say a lot about that (but I won't). Its purpose is not just simple anti-piracy. Its real purpose is to control when, where, and how consumers can listen to / watch / consume what media. In other words, they force you (the consumer) to pay for each use of media. If you want to buy music and put it on your hard drive, pay a fee. If you want to transfer that music to your MP3 player, pay for the music a second time. If you want to burn CDs of the music you have legally purchased to be used for your personal use, pay for each CD you burn. (not to mention that all of these are fair use, and you shouldn't have to pay again for these rights you already have, but in the US it is illegal to break the protection scheme (a necessity to allow fair use))

Oh, and to play it on the computer, you can only use their software, not anyone else's. Maybe you'll need to pay a monthly usage fee to legally continue using the software.
If you want to play it on your MP3 player, you can only play it on a handful of MP3 players that also support the DRM system that the songs use.

As far as DRM hardware goes. There are only a handful of HDCP video cards out there at the moment. They cost huge amounts of money. HDCP is still buggy (I have heard stories about how a PS3 using HDCP encryption was having some problems with communication to a Sony TV... when it is all supposed to be plug-and-play).

It can also be expensive for hardware manufacturers to meet these requirements. This means the cost is reflected in the price the consumer pays (and all for no good reason)

Oh yeah, DirectX 10 only works on Vista. This means some games coming in the future (eg. Halo 2, happens to be published by Microsoft) will require Vista. Another way for Microsoft to force users to upgrade (and pay a steep price in doing so).

Oh, another thing. Out of the box, it doesn't support unsigned drivers. This means user-created / unofficial drivers aren't going to work (unless you add a switch to your boot.ini which allows the OS to load unsigned drivers). In the past, this would have included Hamachi (they have recently gotten their driver signed).
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 07:39:35 PM by op2hacker »

Offline White Claw

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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 07:54:42 PM »
When I say files don't appear, I mean NONE of the files. Not even the baseline project directories and skeleton files that MSVC creates. They all show up when you do "File->Open" under MSVC, but I can't actually find them in the system file structure. Not even buried under some random user "My Projects" type of directory.

I confirmed that I was looking in the correct folder (via the "system") by creating a new folder. Then I ran the MSVC wizard to create a new project and was able to see the directory. But no files showed up in it. Weird. They're probably lost sectors now.

As for OS's, I'd even dump XP all the way back to 98 or 2000. The system resources are very modest, but of course, there's not as much big brother control or "idiot proof" computer usage, and as such has lost support. I've never understood why (in terms of software) you can never leave well enough alone. I think even OS programming is becoming "click and drag" oriented.

As for MP3s, I've not subscribed to any music sites for that reason. I just rip and burn my CDs and manage the files the old fashoned way. I'm always afraid that some random program is going to zap all my files because it thinks they're copyright infringements.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 07:56:20 PM by White Claw »

Offline Hooman

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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2007, 12:37:27 AM »
You mentinoed an emulator, right? Some of those use disk fiels as drives. It sounds like you've already covered this, but are you absolutely sure the files are being (or not being) created where you expect them to be?


And Yeah, I'm not letting anything happen to my Win98SE CD. I like WinXP, but I don't trust it to work in the future due to the product activation. Win98SE also doesn't take a lot of resources, so it runs quite nicely on older computers.

Oh, and an annoyance I had with XP a few weeks back. Some local business wanted me to setup a new computer because their old one was dying (and was still running Win 3.11 believe it or not). After my dad played around with the thing and couldn't get access to the contents of the drive (and always makes claims about "needing the drivers" whenever something doesn't work), I got fed up and stuck it in my computer to copy the contents of the disk to various medias as backup. After plugging in the drive and booting, WinXP informed me that it needed to be reactivated. I ignored it, copied the drive, made the extra backups, shut down and took the drive out. I just figured that message would go away the next time I booted and it saw it wasn't on a different computer after all. It didn't. I had to reactivate WinXP after I booted again, despite having undone the hardware changes that made it want to reactivate in the first place.

This is in contrast to a DOS/Win95/98 install, where you take the drive out, stick it in a completely new computer, and boot no problem. Maybe you'll need to a install new drivers, which usually happens at least semi-automatically if you've got the CDs handy or copied them to a folder on the harddrive (which is usually a smart thing to do), and you may have to restart the system once or twice during that process. But in the end, it works on the new system. That level of robustness in software is really nice. But things like activation almost always rely on some sort of hardware key, and will refuse to work on new systems. I don't feel this is the way things should work, especially since these protection mechanisms have already proved ineffective at stopping piracy.

I also disapprove of DRM schemes, and I feel a need to not support any software that goes that route. Like already stated, that goes against being able to make copies which you are legally entitled to make. I fail to see why the law should favour content producers by allowing them to use DRM schemes which clearly interfere with the rights of all consumers. What's worse is it's not actually stopping the people who are breaking the law. I've never heard of a DRM system that's managed to completely stop illegal copies. At best the make it more difficult to produce illegal copies, while making it impossible to produce legal copies.

I also don't like things like that game system I mentioned earlier. The PC got so popular mainly from open standards and anyone and everyone being able to develop for it. Including the hoards of "little guys". Features like that strongly favour big business. I don't mind big business being there, but I don't think muscling out the little guy will be good for PC development.


Heh, sorry White Claw, it seems we've stolen your thread and run wild with it. :P
Maybe we should consider splitting the topic or something.  :blush:  

Offline Tellaris

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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2007, 01:08:47 AM »
I've noticed that it seems generally a good idea to avoid new software, as it tends to contain numerous bugs.   Better to wait a few months, or in the case of a MS OS, about a year, at least, for them to work out all the little problems that inevitably crop up.   Heres hopeing MS will come to its senses and cut back on the nanny state like behavior...   Perhaps the government will at some point too...   But I doubt it.
Oh well.   Supreme Commander works on XP and thats good enough for me!   (I got a full copy!   My computer can't run the damn thing, but my brother's certainly can!   It Roxorzs TA!)
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Offline White Claw

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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2007, 08:06:01 PM »
Quote
I've noticed that it seems generally a good idea to avoid new software, as it tends to contain numerous bugs.
Ture that...

Quote
You mentinoed an emulator, right?
I did. But it's under the emulator that MSVC works. Under Vista is where I have the file troubles.

Hooman, I've had a similar encounters. It's so frustrating. I didn't even know that you had to activate XP. I didn't do anything with Vista, but maybe it did it on it's own. Or perhaps because I bought a preassembled Gateway. (My first package product since my 486DX)

Quote
I also don't like things like that game system I mentioned earlier. The PC got so popular mainly from open standards and anyone and everyone being able to develop for it. Including the hoards of "little guys". Features like that strongly favour big business. I don't mind big business being there, but I don't think muscling out the little guy will be good for PC development.
YES!!!

Quote
Heh, sorry White Claw, it seems we've stolen your thread and run wild with it.
Maybe we should consider splitting the topic or something. 
That's cool. I've already solved my own original problem  (thumbsup) (with Virtual PC). So there's really no need to split the topic!   :blush: