Bottleneck Strategy..

[thablkpanda]

I recently played a decent game with Horus- we played La Corrida, the map most of you rushers frown upon, however I digress...

Those familiar with La Corrida will remember that the computer playing eden in the center blockades itself in a rather innoportune position. It builds walls around itself, and creates a perfect bottleneck for any player to ambush.

Horus overtook the northwest side quickly, with massive numbers of microwave lynx. I scoffed quietly, but moved in my thor's tigers and emps to meet him.

Instead, Horus came to the southwest side to meet me- where I was completely prepared. His microwave lynx were completely out of range, and thors were picking them off one by one as the progressed through the bottleneck created by some simple walls that the CPU created. My opponent could have simply destroyed those walls to flood my 10-15 thors hammer's tigers that were defending, and would have stood a decent chance when his RPG Tigers came through, however two-by-two the tigers came through, and were destroyed with sufficent efficency.

My point  is, what is your opinion on a map built for bottlenecking? something that would force a millitary strategic position or entry from multiple areas to make a offensive attack efficent.

I'm asking generally, what kind of map should I develop? LOL- I need ideas, and I'm completely blank. I need to create a map and the mission before reunion time, and I need ideas, I'm just throwing that one out there.

-Chris Merchant
Merchant Enterprises

[Leviathan]

Pie has bottlenecking, nostalgia has bottlenecking, and so do others. Bottlenecking is good! Without it you can realy do many strats. You need the bottleneck to be able to carry out a strat such as teching to rpg or geting rare. Without the bottleneck you cant hold your opponent back and keep them out of your base long enough to get to your tech for your startup strat.

Personaly i like the idea of map's having sections and them being devided up by bottlenecks, small and large.

As for a map type to develop I would say to start with go for the standard 128x128 and make it a 4 player map.

[Highlander]

Bottlenecks basicly provides an easy way to defend your base. (You don't have to spend time to build defensive forces and defensive measures)

However, open maps gives the players oppertunities use a wider spread of tactics.
So I prefer the big maps you have plenty of space to move around on. (Around the World, Axens Home etc)

[Leviathan]

Me and Paco think that the best 1v1 map is Enter The Dragon, a some sort of 2v2 version of it would be great

And as a tip i would use some image software to create outline designs first and get a idea of what you want, and try diff ideas etc.

Also it would be great if you could take time to make a fair map like I have tryed to do with Enter The Dragon & Nostalgia.

But's its down to your creativity and vision and what you want!

[dm-horus]

I prefer open maps due to the ability to employ tactics that change rapidly. in a map with obvious bottlenecks, youre pretty much adhered to one strategy. i failed on that map because i was looking for a way to sneak some supernova lynx into your base, but having played primarily open maps i was at a disadvantage. id like more practice on main bottleneck maps.

[thablkpanda]

You could've emp nuked my force and drove a supernova right in...

LOL, nah seriously, I feel ya, I like a self-made defensive measure. I like throwing up walls and crap, making my life more structured... ya kno?

I'm still contemplating my map...

Panda

[dm-horus]

I love mapping and I actually had an archive with all my SC maps in it laying around here somewhere (looks around). Have you ever been in the real world and started thinking about ways to keep someone out of an area or how you would go about getting in somewhere? I do, and I often draw up an idea that comes to me in a game map. If it were easier to do mapping in OP2 I would probably be spitting them out like crazy.

[Leviathan]

Ive allways loved mapping for games.

OP2 maping is easy and great fun, it just takes longer than other games.

Yes, get maping

[BlackBox]

Don't worry, eventually I'll get around to write something that will make mapping a lot easier. (Perhaps some sort of brush that will automatically place edges, etc)

Panda: you still having the problem with the v2 map editor?

[TH300]

Don't ask if your idea is good! go ahead and do it!
I guess, every new map will be appreciated.

[thablkpanda]

Yeah, hacker, If I could get it to work... This would make the coding easier, the mapping itself I don't mind, but coding gets extremely tedious- and tricky.

I'm modifing La Corrida (my favorite map) and making a version allowing for remote bases (bases 'away' from yours, a.k.a 'Outposts' (no pun intended)). It's nothing super interesting, but I want a map in the reunion pack, so I digress.

Holla,
Chris

[Freeza-CII]

Cant blow up a mountain like you can a wall.  When your in the open like you are in other maps (beacause all maps are not created equally).  ATW you could be open on all sides.  The botteneck isnt going to work here.  Baikon has a good Def tho.

[Starfox00000]

why not, instead of creating a map with a perminent bottleneck (i.e. cliffs etc.) you could have a huge open map like around the world, but starting bases have very thick walls (like a layers) creating a temporary bottleneck lasting until people have rare and whatnot.

[Tellaris]

No need to develop a map.   On open maps, I just wall around myself.   Compact base, walls all around it surrounded by GPs.   Once I've done this, I've been attacked...   And always won defensively.   Even though the walls are destroyable, I find people attack the entrances more then the walls themselves.   But good luck with the wall lengths, those are fairly easy to defend, and you end up being in range of my ESG/Acid when you try to blow them away.   EMP also has a fairly good range for this.   Natural walls are nice, but Concrete walls are just as effective

[Freeza-CII]

I find thor works well on walls lol Thor is the great wall destroyer.  Well i think if your to attack multipul spots on a base that is walled out in the open mostly you might have to deal with GPs.  I would never try to go through a main opening that a person has set up to be a death trap and it usually quickly reinforced.

[Tellaris]

Don't you remember my Death Walls?   GPs all over the place, small space, very easy to reinforce a weak spot.

[Ezekel]

i'd suggest a map that is open, but each start area has a connection to a plateau that is perhaps only reachable by one or two paths that are 2-3 squares thick.

that way you have the best of both worlds in that you have your open map, but if you are in need of it, you have an area you can fall back into and hold (until your resources run out of course).
the plateaus would have to be devoid of mining beacons, else a player could hole him/her self up indefinetly (though EMP missiles would probably deal with this).
but say its a 2vs2 game, then this would allow you to save your colonists and keep your labs going (and protect more sensitve parts of your base, like a redundant CC connected to you main base).

i don't want to see a map where its possible to play it completely from behind a bottle neck as extreme as 3-squares wide, but having a seige-style gameplay would at least be interesting (like LOTR's battle for helm's deep).
heck, it'd make a decent singleplay concept based on a meatgrinder (CPU continually assaulting you while you are in a well defended location and you must survive for a certain amount of time. or perhaps even a new sort of game mode lol).

ok i think i've typed enough in this post.

[Starfox00000]

the way to make a bottle neck in a medium sized cliff opening is you have 2-3 layers that touch the cliffs, and there is only 1 diagonal opening in the middle (you know how units can go over squares diagonally and run parts of wall over, like that) at the corner. (this is and right angle pointing toward your base, or away from the attackers). Then you need 1 layer wall one space out from the 2-3 layer wall (on the attakcer side) and it  has to leave 1 opening b/w the cliff on each side. This is the most effective bottleneck ive seen to date. (i didn't come up with it, i played someone and i was attacking, i had many more tigers than him and was obliterated, I'm just saying what he did)

[CK9]

And as a tip i would use some image software to create outline designs first and get a idea of what you want, and try diff ideas etc.
 

Or, if you don't want the extra programs open, you can just use rubble to outline areas as you go.  Those who were on IRC while I was doing the main work on my 3 v 3 + comp map might remember me mentioning the outlining and pre-building of cliffs on maps to speed up the process.

as for a map type, try recreating something you see in your everyday life.  That's how I did some of my first maps when the editor was still in beta.

[Leviathan]

yea but u should start a orignal design in paint or wutevea so you know what u want and u can c it all at once.

i used to do that too CK9. and a lot of counting tiles

[CK9]

counting tiles?  I just use the coordinates that the editor gives

BTW, I'm finding that I have less and less time lately, so if anyone wants to help me out finish my map, I'd really appriciate it.  It just need some tile mode setting and some clean up work for now.