Eden Heat Dissipation

[redfox]

We had a lengthy discussion on IRC about how unbalanced Eden is vs Plymouth in multiplayer games.  The Microwave is not only more powerful than the Laser, but it's Heat Dissipation upgrade allows any Plymouth player to completely trash an Eden player at the beginning of a multiplayer game.  This makes Eden near completely worthless in a 1 vs 1.

Now, one of the people we were discussing with put out the opinion that Plymouth is meant to own Eden in short games, and that Eden should be picked in longer games; but personally I believe that by allowing Eden to have Heat Dissipation (even if only for the Laser) at the same level as Plymouth is, Eden can fend off the first assault by Plymouth and be actually considered for use in a 1 vs 1.  Plymouth's microwaves will still be superior, but Eden has a chance to survive.

As it is, the game is unbalanced.  The common philosophy seems to be "Just use Plymouth".  But isn't the point of having TWO SIDES to be able to pick how you wish to play and still have a fair advantage? It is quite simply, boring and irritating to be forced to play one side just to have a chance of living through a rush. This is not a gamebreaking change; it simply allows Eden early survival.  Any Plymouth player who knows what he's doing can still trounce an Eden player; and long games won't be affected hardly at all, since Plymouth can still counter Eden's Thor and Acid Cloud with EMP/Spiders, Stickyfoam, EMP Missiles, ESG and Supernovas.  This can't hurt the game; it can only help make it more balanced.

[Highlander]

This is just how it is redfox.

Short mark game: Eden < Plymouth.
Long mark game: Eden > Plymouth

There is no problem with going 1 vs 1/Eden vs Plymouth. You just have to consider the AM you apply. And above you see the balance as it stands now.


Still, what you propose wouldn't solve the problem. It isn't Plymouth's early micro which is the whole problem, it is the early long range/disabling weapon: The Stickyfoam.
Give Eden an early powerup with their lasers, you still get killed by a Plymouth player early on..


So, if you managed to balance the early game, you still haven't solved the long games.
Eden firepower rules in the long games, and it is little to nothing Plymouth can do to defend, much less start any successful attacks.


"EMP/Spiders, Stickyfoam, EMP Missiles, ESG and Supernovas." doesn't balance out Acids and Thors

[Leviathan]

Well I cant comment on Eden late game or how powerfull they realy are and if they do win 100% of the time vs Plymouth like you say Highlander. I would hope its not true but im not saying its not and I would love to see it Some Eden vs Plymouth games would be nice to see

Anyway my current possible suggestions to balance Eden are:
Add a extra Heat Dissipation research to upgrade laser the same time Plymouth has it and the later Heat Dissipation is just for the other weps.
Add stickyfoam for eden.
I know this is a giving eden another weapon and its not their weapon but its such a useful and powerful weapon. Its realy the main reason you play Plymouth.. apart from the fact you will lose with eden. Anyway even if the teams were balanced in firepower I would still play Plymouth. If I played a game where one Plymouth is allowed Sticky and the other is not the player with the sticky can do so much more.
Many strategies rely on the use of the sticky.
For example:
On pie chart, going 1 smelter early 2nd vf to get more units than your opponent and earlier you can secure the middle. And without stickys you cant really hold it unless you spend all your resources on vehs. So you have the middle early.. you then get rare, and re-secure the middle with ESG. If they break thru to the middle they wont get far, you have ESG. You can then secure your back ore with 2 smelters and go for tigers or whatever. You cant do this without stickys!

Personally I think it is indeed unbalanced and Eden is to be used in team games like 2v2 where each team has one Plymouth and one Eden and the Plymouth defends the Eden till they get rare etc.

It would be nice to be able to use Eden in 1v1 tho.
 

[Freeza-CII]

If there are any changes to eden they need to be done in OP3 not op2.

I agree with Highlander Use ply for rushes if that is your thing.  Dont just use eden because they cant win a rush unless they can outproduce ply which doesnt happen very often.

Also If you want to change Eden to be more like Plymouth your better off just using Plymouth and leaving Eden alone.  Play smart If your in a rush game use ply or try to fight for exsistance as eden.  If your going to play LR LOS on some of the bigger maps which usually have a AM or BM then Eden can battle pretty equally.  A Plymouth player can beat a Eden player in long games they have to use tactics and that EMP missiles helps them alot to.  Dont change the game so every one can play rush games and see who can click the fastest some people dont like to play like that.

If you want to say that the game is unbalanced ill give you that Eden doesnt have a unit like Sticky that can stop a army in place.  But look at both sides  not just PLYMOUTH IS THE GREATEST.  Youll see balance.  

Use ply if you want to get early Heat dis dont just change Eden.

[Racquerr]

I think the advantage to Plymouth in the beginning was to slow down the advance of Eden and force them to build a defense (and take up time and resources doing so). This in turn compensates for Edens technological advances later in game which would be an easy defeat at that time against a "unprepared" Plymouth commander. So this just balances everything out. Leave it as is.  

[CK9]

FOOLS!  On WON, both sides won in both cases.  I played in low-mark games where eden won by using the distract-and-attack method, and high-mark games where plym won with a disable-and-boom method.  The problem isn't the balance, the problem is that everyone keeps trying the same damn method.  No one even considers a new strategy anymore.  On WON, there would be games with no attack mark, both eden and plymoth fighting, and the battle would be stuck in the center for so long, that both sides would have insanely thick defensive walls and a lot of turrets set up to blunt any attack.  Anymore, you just see people rushing to build up small forces early to blow up the opponents CC.

[dm-horus]

I agree with CK9 here. people are going for the instant gratification of rushing like its crack. when two rushers go head to head using the same build method  and one comes out a little sooner than the other everyone cries "GAME BUG! FIX IT FIX IT!" just play with a different strategy. Also most of the people who still play op2 these days are devoted rushers.

[alice]

CK9 is absolutely right. There is a reason plymouth can spam EMP missiles, and I'm sure if you played eden on low mark enough, you could manage to counter rush and get to the tipping point that you're greater than Plymouth. There is no reason for there to be any sort of balancing changes in Outpost 2. Everything has a counter and a way to overcome it. The only problem is that people complain whenever you try to employ the tactics needed to win. Will you get pissed if I missile whore the hell out of you? Yes, but I would prefer you be pissed than have your thors tigers roll over my base. I'm sure there is a way for eden to beat plymouth low mark (and it probably just involves a little fortification to hold off until you get a long range weapon to overcome sticky) (I haven't played eden enough to figure it out, but I can guarentee it's possible...) I miss the old days of WON, and I didn't even play back then....

If you really want a truely balanced game,
remove super novas,
Give eden stickyfoam
make microwave and laser the same power fire rate, and everything
Give plymouth thors
Give eden emp missiles
Give eden ESG
make railgun and rpg equal
Give eden the morale boost that Plymouth has
and anything else that may be different between the two colonies.

Sure there may be no variety, but it'll satisfy the people that can't handle a little diversity and the strategy it takes to win when disadvantaged x]

[Mez]

just play the same side e.g. ply vs ply, or eden vs eden. then!

[CK9]

don't even get me started on the people who complain about mass-missling when they have 32+ thor's tigers heading towards you...

I know of several good methods that can counter a rush for eden, and have used them.  The only flaw I've found is that I personally start focusing more on my colony and forget to produce more units

[Arklon]

don't even get me started on the people who complain about mass-missling when they have 32+ thor's tigers heading towards you...

One or two missiles are acceptable there, but 10+ (even 3 is too much) spaceports constantly pumping missiles is dishonorable. There is no way to go on the offensive against that, unless you manage to have meteor defenses practically in your enemy's base and keep them defended. Which is really only possible on La Corrida, and POSSIBLY Pie Chart if you're right next to the missiler and can squeeze in some meteor defenses next to the cliff.
And don't try telling me to just play superrush games.

[White Claw]

I'm always resistant to change something for the sake of making it easier, but then again, I don't play much multi. As for heat dis, I don't really see why it is so late in the tech tree either. I wonder if it was done that way for some reasons for the campaign. I suppose some willing folks could modify the tech tree slightly and try out a version with earlier heat dis to see if it helps.  

[Highlander]

How many times do this discussion have to come back to life ?

Read up on my first post in this topic. That knowledge has been set in stone since the days of WON. No matter what you guys like to think, that is how it is.


Assuming opponents have the same skill level, there is no way Eden will win a no mark game unless Plymouth player messes up, and vice versa in a high mark game.



If anyone after 10 years suddenly comes up with a magical solution to this, I'm gonna be very impressed.

[White Claw]

Not all of us have been here for ten years...

[CK9]

Highlander, I've won in a 1v1 agains someone equal to me as eden.  I had them destracted with a huge fight of lasers v mics, and had 4 or 5 sneak around and kill their CC.  It was already in the red by the time they got enough units there to stop me, and I won

[Highlander]

So, you won 1 time as Eden vs Plymouth.
This 1 time, your opponent messed up.


With upgrade mics more or less worth 2 lasers each. Keep same amout of production + ore costs, Plymouth quickly has about a double amount of firepower. Throw in 2 sticky's to divide Eden's lynxes for easy pickings and you have a clean win for Plymouth early on.

If you chose to play a game differently, then by all means do that. But as time goes, plymouth will quickly lose it's edge. If you play to win, just follow the example above and you will win ever match if you play against a Eden player.

[Quantum]

Eden is fine...

If heat dissipation was given at the same time of plymouth

eden would win not to mention the thors    

[Marukasu]

Eden sucks early game.
That is true, however plymouth sucks later in the game.

To balance the sides you need a third side.
Three sides allow a different form of balance.