Author Topic: Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?  (Read 14803 times)

Offline Oprime

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2004, 10:24:03 AM »
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So what about the pentium 4 different architecture, bigger cache, added alghoritms like sse3 & hyperthreading, 0,13 - 0,09 micron allowing a higher fsb, longer pipelines, better prefetching alghoritms ?

Have you ever heard of the Pentium M? It's just a revised Pentium 3 yet it offers more performace then a 2.7Ghz celeron that is based on the Pentium 4 at only 2Ghz. The longer piplines are what let the Pentium 4 reach high clockrates. The clockrate means nothing. Also don't you think that 32bit processing is getting old. I bet by 2006 most systems are going to be 64bit.

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That is exactly one of the reasons why we Swedes pay taxes and have a good welfare program.

If the welfare program is so "good" can those old people live on the welfare checks alone? I know some old people that pay over $600 a month on drugs alone plus rent, nurses, doctors, food, and transportation. I don't think there is a welfare program in the world that can do that. You don't know how bad it is until you are forced to be poor. The US is supposed to be 1 of many countrys that have lots of money for stuff like that, but then I still see people begging in the streets. Makes me wonder if your rich or something. When you get old tell me how it is when you don't have food to eat for 3 days, your sick, and have no shelter. You just can't throw some money at somebody and think that they will be okey.  Do you care at all about your parents welfare? Dang, if you think taxes can you really must be a penny pincher.

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As for the rest, if it is so incredibly simple to get investors, why not help out selfdestruct or op2patriot with their op2movie. Im certain you'll pull it off you'll make big bucks after all  .

Do you even think that it'll make a lot of money? Most people spend months writing reports before showing anything to investors.  I can't spend 6 months writing a 600 page essay on what we are going to do while in production. I need to finish school before I do anything like that. I got a friend who started his own computer repair shop and don't think that he can do that with the $20,000 or so dollars he had in the bank. Nope, he got local banks to pay for it then lator he payed them back and is now making some decent amout of cash. If I asked him if he can invest in to the project he would most likly want to see all the paper work and meet them before even thinking about giving selfdestruct or Op2patriot money. When did I say it was simple to get investors? Yes, there are a lot of people with money but, then there is a lot more of paper work that is needed. Like I said earlier can you buy a $30,000 car in cash?  Didn't think so. Financing is just a bank investing in you as long as you can pay them back with interest. What about buying a $250,000 house... did somebody say Mortgages? A family that earns $55,000 or more a year can afford to buy a house like that thanks to mortgages.

This is starting to get really off topic.
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Offline BlackBox

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2004, 10:44:58 AM »
another point, 64 bit architecture.

All new AMD processors have some 64 bit capabilities (they aren't true 64 bit processors, actually, they're 48 bit but the width is still wider than Intel's 32bits consumer processors)

The only processor Intel has available that is 64 bit is the Itanium, which is mainly for servers and other enterprise environments.

You also mustn't forget the 3dNow instructions unique to AMD.

Offline Kramy

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2004, 12:00:37 PM »
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If the welfare program is so "good" can those old people live on the welfare checks alone? I know some old people that pay over $600 a month on drugs alone plus rent, nurses, doctors, food, and transportation. I don't think there is a welfare program in the world that can do that. You don't know how bad it is until you are forced to be poor.

Revise that to "poor in the US". We all know your corporations suck. :lol: They're making big cash off those drugs, since a bottle+pills only costs 27 cents to manufacture. :lol:(varies slightly from drug to drug, btw) Oh, but don't forget the $42 quality testing and assurance. Have to make sure those pills don't unexpectedly affect you in any way... :blink:

You should move to canada. Here drugs are 1/3 the price, and if you count the exchange rate, you'll only be paying $145 american. :)

Then again, our healthcare pays for lots of(cheaper)drugs, so I guess that wouldn't matter if you're canadian. In town here you can rent apartments for as little as $400, so if you take the cheapest drugs, cheapest apartment, and cheapest food....you might have $50 at the end of the month...yeah, ok, bit of a stretch. Hope your parents saved up some money like mine. :)

Edit: Oh yeah, a friend of mine just moved to the states. Up here they were paying $1000 a month on their mortgage($650 went to interest).

Anyway, some american company bought out theirs, then closed it, and gave them an offer to work down to the states. They went down to the states(california), since they were jobless, and got an equivalent sized house for only $4350, or $6000 canadian in RENT, each month. :blink:

I think all americans are crazy. :o
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2004, 12:08:36 PM by Kramy »
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Offline Zircon

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2004, 12:56:17 PM »
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Have you ever heard of the Pentium M? It's just a revised Pentium 3 yet it offers more performace then a 2.7Ghz celeron that is based on the Pentium 4 at only 2Ghz. The longer piplines are what let the Pentium 4 reach high clockrates. The clockrate means nothing. Also don't you think that 32bit processing is getting old. I bet by 2006 most systems are going to be 64bit.

Celeron... One word explains it all ^_^

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If the welfare program is so "good" can those old people live on the welfare checks alone? I know some old people that pay over $600 a month on drugs alone plus rent, nurses, doctors, food, and transportation. I don't think there is a welfare program in the world that can do that. You don't know how bad it is until you are forced to be poor. The US is supposed to be 1 of many countrys that have lots of money for stuff like that, but then I still see people begging in the streets. Makes me wonder if your rich or something. When you get old tell me how it is when you don't have food to eat for 3 days, your sick, and have no shelter. You just can't throw some money at somebody and think that they will be okey. Do you care at all about your parents welfare? Dang, if you think taxes can you really must be a penny pincher.

1: Yes they can live on it alone. And live real good for that matter.
2: Old people only have to pay 10% of the medication (drugs), they also have a high cost insurance so that if the costs go above a certain point they get the rest for free.
Surgeries and visits to the doctor is free.
3: Nah not rich, medium. Like most others.
4: People out on the streets, never seen one in my city, never ever. I went to the capital city once though, i saw a poor lady in an alley that time.
5: If you are a single mother and without work, you get social funding. The same goes for people without employment, the only term is that you actively search for work and take the first one which pops up. Schools cost nothing. From basic school to the best universities. There are private "private schools" though that pick out extra payments. Ordinary private schools also get their funds from the government.
6: As for someone starving, it would make the news. It is completetely unheard of. If a person does die on the street it's not because they went hungry. More likely they took an overdose.
7: When a person gets so old that they cant take care of their home, they get an apartment in a service home (free) if they cant take care of the apartment they're put in the main service home with 24 hour nurses. (it's worth mentioning though that the quality of the main service home has degraded much in the last couple of years, but it's getting better again (slowly))
(list continues but im not going to count all and then i take many of them for granted)

We swedes dont pay 40% of all income in taxes for nothing you know  ^_^
(Tax rate depends on your salary ofcourse)

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I need to finish school before I do anything like that.

Very realistic.

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another point, 64 bit architecture.

All new AMD processors have some 64 bit capabilities (they aren't true 64 bit processors, actually, they're 48 bit but the width is still wider than Intel's 32bits consumer processors)

The only processor Intel has available that is 64 bit is the Itanium, which is mainly for servers and other enterprise environments.

You also mustn't forget the 3dNow instructions unique to AMD.

And how many 3d modelling programs are made to use those? Zero.
If you look at tests the 64 bit architecture is a disadvantage when it comes to 3d modelling software like 3dsmax.

If they changed the software to use the 64 bit architecture im sure they would have an advantage though. But they probably wont redirect their software until intel reveals their own customer based 64 bit processors.

--------------

Again, no im not saying that AMD is bad. They're great at games. All you need to do is look at game benchmarks. Trying to stand against it is foolishness.
But, AMD is at a clear disadvantage when it comes to 3d modelling applications. Check the tests, it shows it.
What is it that is so hard to accept with that ?

Note for the nitpickers (once again) ingame engines and 3d modelling software is two completely different things. Dont mix them together.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2004, 02:07:33 PM by Zircon »

Offline zeritou

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2004, 01:34:03 PM »
i read about half of this thread before i decided:

all the processors you guys are talking about are obsolete, 6 gigahertz processors are a reality, and you guys are buggin out about a p4, whoopie...

as soon as they make the 7 gigers quit triping over themselves, then the 5 gigs will be out for consumer use, and so on

so quit *itching about the pitiful crap we have now, it all runs outpost the same
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Offline Oprime

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2004, 08:45:50 PM »
:P To get 5,6,7 gigs with current processors would mean that you would need MASSIVE cooling which doesn't include water cooling :D....hmm Liquid Helium -268.93°C... maybe not. Still what really matters is the FLOPS ---> Mega, Giga, Tera, Peta which is what Super computers go by.
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Celeron... One word explains it all
The celeron is based on the P4 and even the Pentium 4 is starting to lag compared to the Pentium M when going at equal speeds. Think about the P4 Extream :D that thing is so expensive that having dual xeons is cheaper and faster. When you think about it new xeons have hyperthreading. A dual xeon with hyperthreading is like having quad processors only that it's like $300-$400 cheaper.
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Revise that to "poor in the US". We all know your corporations suck.  They're making big cash off those drugs, since a bottle+pills only costs 27 cents to manufacture. (varies slightly from drug to drug, btw) Oh, but don't forget the $42 quality testing and assurance. Have to make sure those pills don't unexpectedly affect you in any way...
Who said anything about the corporations and their cash and drugs. I can buy a generic drug that the pharmacist made and get it cheaper. Plus, we can buy drugs from canada too you know.
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We swedes dont pay 40% of all income in taxes for nothing you know
(Tax rate depends on your salary ofcourse)
We pay about 33%. You also have to remember that we are at war and war costs a lot of money. Does sweden even have a military anymore? Anyways we pay more taxes then any country in the world. Here there is a Tax on everything. I can't even buy the sunday newspaper without paying the 7%(gonna raise to 13% by end of the year)  sales tax on it or  even a bar of candy :P.
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If they changed the software to use the 64 bit architecture im sure they would have an advantage though. But they probably wont redirect their software until intel reveals their own customer based 64 bit processors.

You just made my point that Intel uses propaganda to grab hold of the market. Until Intel comes out with a mainstream 64bit processor "Normal" people wouldn't even look at the advantages. Did you ever get a Nintendo64 and see the performance difference between a normal computer of the time and it. I remember that when Nintendo64 came out it was faster then the worlds fastest super computer in 1989 or something. Now remember I said that companys would make their own modeling software wouldn't that extend to the fact that because there are no commercial 64bit modeling programs. If it isn't already made, they most likely made their own right?
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Anyway, some american company bought out theirs, then closed it, and gave them an offer to work down to the states. They went down to the states(california), since they were jobless, and got an equivalent sized house for only $4350, or $6000 canadian in RENT, each month.
I think all americans are crazy.
I can rent an apartment with 3 bedrooms and 2 bath for $200 a month including all utilities. Plus, when buying a house it depends on the bank and all the local property taxes (There are a lot of them). Anyway you can't even buy a house with help from a bank until you have lived in the US for 2 years. My family owns 2 houses right now (1 here and 1 in my homeland ( ...bragging :D
 
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Offline Zircon

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2004, 05:20:03 AM »
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We pay about 33%. You also have to remember that we are at war and war costs a lot of money. Does sweden even have a military anymore?

When you weren't at war the situation in the US wasn't very different so what is your point?
Yes we do. We like to specialise though, we may not have a big military but we have an up to date one. Plus, the population is almost up to 9 million so we aren't exactly huge.

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To get 5,6,7 gigs with current processors would mean that you would need MASSIVE cooling which doesn't include water cooling ....

I dont think he was talking about current processors...

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A dual xeon with hyperthreading is like having quad processors only that it's like $300-$400 cheaper.

You are over rating hyperthreading, tests show that 4 threads usually make the process go slower. Besides to begin with hyperthreading doesn't give a big benefit in games or ordinary applications. (if at all) The true benefits exists in 3dmodelling applications, that's why people usually "Who cares about Hyper Threading because when you have Dual Processors and a Modeling Program that is optimized for them there would be no need for it."
The effect is there and it's big. (3d modelling applications ofcourse)

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You just made my point that Intel uses propaganda to grab hold of the market. Until Intel comes out with a mainstream 64bit processor "Normal" people wouldn't even look at the advantages. Did you ever get a Nintendo64 and see the performance difference between a normal computer of the time and it. I remember that when Nintendo64 came out it was faster then the worlds fastest super computer in 1989 or something. Now remember I said that companys would make their own modeling software wouldn't that extend to the fact that because there are no commercial 64bit modeling programs. If it isn't already made, they most likely made their own right?

First of all 64 bit processors are relatively new, before that AMD didn't have a single thing that was appealing for modelling users. Thus Intel is the natural choice.
So intel was chosen and all software adopted to it (3d modelling software again for you nitpicks) Now that AMD has a single appealing thing namely 64 bit architecture do you think the entire market will throw themselves over the 64 bit processors and rebuild all the software and miss out on the big benefits hyper threading gives?

As for the nintendo 64, i have no information on that part so i wont comment on it.

As for 64 bit modelling programs, it's only a matter of time before it starts turning to that front as well, but that is as said a couple of years after intel reveals their customer based 64 bit processors because they want both parts of the cookie.
The thing with 3d modelling software is that making one with true raytracing capabilities takes a lot of time to make. It isn't a 3d (game) engine (again i refer to the point that they are two completely different things)
In short, companies dont make their own 3d modelling software, yeah sure they make ingame 3d engines and character creation suites but 3d modelling software, no.
It wouldn't be profitable and it would take a very very long time.

Thus they follow the market. Also 64 bit architecture isn't good enough, they need something like hyperthreading to give a good boost and 64 bit processors in order to make it appealing enough to start changing the software.

It's like the machines made to make processors 1,30 - 0,90 microns, there's one producer and the machines cost very much and are hard to build. Therefore you simply "dont build one yourself" as it would surely drag the company into the abyss.
Or particle accelerators, or observatories, they hire or borrow it because building one yourself isnt an option. Or like NASA, you dont just build a rocket and *woosh* you go...

If it was simple to just make your own (im guessing you're going to say "when did i say it was easy?" now) it wouldnt cost $3,495.00 for one license of 3dsmax.

Source: Discreet online store

And also what would they gain of it, spending incredible amounts of money setting up entirely new software creation offices hiring mathematics and physicists into making a 3d modelling software (that would take at a minimum of 5 years to build) fully compatible with 64 bit processors and then re-educating the entire staff to use the new software and buy a completely new set of hardware just so they can get speeds with an AMD equivelant to that of a hyper threading enabled processor that they already had from the beginning.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2004, 07:18:52 AM by Zircon »

Offline BlackBox

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2004, 07:17:18 AM »
Not trying to get too offtopic here, but like Prime said you can rent an apartment with full utilities for $200-300. (especially at the old airforce base by me).

Also, if you're paying $145 american for "most drugs," that's insane!! (bad example). That seems more like the cost of some newer drugs...
(Don't forget here if your insurance company lets you, you can import some drugs from Canada... like cheaper generics that cost less).

And you feel pity for the people that can't make a living in the USA....

Everyone can make a living in the USA unless they can't work for some reason or have retired. (That's what unemployment, workers' comp., and Social Security are for those situations).
The people that don't even try and that could work if they weren't so
lazy are the ones that don't deserve welfare.

And yes, I've been to Canada, personally I find it very depressing because everything seems to have no money. (eg. some roads are horrible and need repaving, the shopping centers have only a few stores, etc)
Canada as a whole doesn't have a lot of money.

Nor would I want to live in a socialist country. That is no way to have a strong country, by letting the government control whether you can put up businesses, etc. even if they have benefits that don't really help the whole public. and the public housing? All I can say is "yuck." I've seen some examples of some of those types of things...

Capitalism is the reason America is so strong today because the government doesn't have a tight grip on everything. And people are willing to make money, and do so.

GM: clean this thread.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2004, 07:17:48 AM by op2hacker »

Offline Zircon

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Intel vs AMD / Living in USA?
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2004, 07:26:33 AM »
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That is no way to have a strong country, by letting the government control whether you can put up businesses, etc. even if they have benefits that don't really help the whole public. and the public housing? All I can say is "yuck." I've seen some examples of some of those types of things...

First of all, the government has no control over what kind of business you want to set up. It's not communism you know  :angry:
That is except for private schools, they need ask the government about that but so far there hasn't been any denials.

You get an apartment which you move all your own furniture into, an ordinary apartment like any other. What's so yucky with that. Besides the people that get these apartments cant survive without a nurse visiting them atleast twice a day so trying to gather them together is obvious.

But yes i can agree the full service homes (the last stop before death, as in cant walk  or eat anymore) currently available is a disgrace, but as said it's getting better slowly.

This is ofcourse based on views from my country, there's bad socialism and there's good socialism. Or rather sweden utilises a socialistic democratic with a small slice of capitalism society which has according to the cia factbook been very successful.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2004, 08:09:30 AM by Zircon »

Offline Oprime

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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2004, 10:57:46 AM »
Ok... I'll start off by saying that INTEL HAS A 64BIT PROCESSOR. I'm guessing you didn't already know this.

It is true that there are 5ghz processors. Intel holds processors back so they don't have to spend a whole lot of time and money paying hardware engineers to make new ones such as the case with the Pentium MMX and the Pentium Pro. A Pentium MMX 233Mhz can go 300Mhz with just a fan.

The Athon64 as Op2Hacker already said is not a true 64bit processor.

I'll still say that the Pentium M is still better then a Pentium 4.

When I was talking about the quad processor thing have you ever seen how much it'll cost for a Pentium 4 Extream system. You said that hypertheading speeds up 3D modeling programs right? Well, when I was talking about xeons and hypertheading I was kind of asking you if it would be faster with dual xeons with hypertheading insted of just a single processor.

Intel is already making a 64bit processor for the mainstream
 
AMD's cheapo processor, the duron, is gonna have a new name and is gonna be for socket 754 and it can still blowout a celeron now more then ever :D.
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Offline Zircon

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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2004, 11:51:17 AM »
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Ok... I'll start off by saying that INTEL HAS A 64BIT PROCESSOR. I'm guessing you didn't already know this.

"The only processor Intel has available that is 64 bit is the Itanium, which is mainly for servers and other enterprise environments."

op2hacker has said this already, but as said it's not for the general population if so to speak. Many stores dont even carry them. There arent many tests on them and they've kinda fallen into the dark. Due to the lack of tests it might even produce very bad results. If you look at the prescott it performs worse at many tests even though it has 1 mb of cache. But that could be because it's the only processor with SSE3 support.  :mellow:

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AMD's cheapo processor, the duron, is gonna have a new name and is gonna be for socket 754 and it can still blowout a celeron now more then ever .

I wouldn't be surprised if it did, the celeron series have always performed badly nomatter what architecture it is built on.

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Well, when I was talking about xeons and hypertheading I was kind of asking you if it would be faster with dual xeons with hypertheading insted of just a single processor.

Probably, two heads is always better then one. Or rather processors in this case.

Offline zeritou

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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2004, 12:11:24 PM »
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To get 5,6,7 gigs with current processors would mean that you would need MASSIVE cooling which doesn't include water cooling ....

I dont think he was talking about current processors...
yes and no

yes, these processors do exist but no, they arent on any market anywhere (that ive herd of)

they are still in development (as i remember), the researchers still have to solve the cooling problems, they have to find a use for such speeds, they have to make other hardware to keep up, and the fact that the 7 giger trips over itself (it does the whole command at the same time instead of: do first line, check, do next line, check...)
 
how to insult a klingon:

qatlh Quch Hab ghaj no'ra'
vaj HabHa''a' je 'uSDu'lIj joj

wich translates roughly to:

how come you guys never had those for head bumps in the first staktrek series and do you guys have bumps like that on your genitals too?

Offline Kramy

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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2004, 01:39:12 PM »
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Also, if you're paying $145 american for "most drugs," that's insane!! (bad example). That seems more like the cost of some newer drugs...
(Don't forget here if your insurance company lets you, you can import some drugs from Canada... like cheaper generics that cost less).

Referring to per month.

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And yes, I've been to Canada, personally I find it very depressing because everything seems to have no money. (eg. some roads are horrible and need repaving, the shopping centers have only a few stores, etc)
Canada as a whole doesn't have a lot of money.

Yes, all our jobs are going down to the states. :( That and many of us are taxed over 50%, so that our docs can make millions/year, and only have to pay a couple thousand in insurance. :(

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Nor would I want to live in a socialist country. That is no way to have a strong country, by letting the government control whether you can put up businesses, etc. even if they have benefits that don't really help the whole public. and the public housing? All I can say is "yuck." I've seen some examples of some of those types of things...

Well, that's fine, but I doubt any of us would want to live in america. :lol: Actually, I've yet to find a person in my town that wants to live in america....I doubt even 2% of people in firstworld countries outside of america, actually want to go there. I know most canadians don't like living in america. You should hear some of the letters they send back. Really funny :D ....oh wait, you're american, so you'd be insulted. :heh:
 
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Offline Oprime

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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2004, 02:23:56 PM »
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I doubt even 2% of people in firstworld countries outside of america, actually want to go there.

Have you ever gone to a country outside of canada that isn't even kind of like it. I know I have. If you go to Haiti or the Dominican Republic you'll see what I mean. Everybody wants to go to the US. If you want a girlfriend go down there and get 50 :). They'll do anything to get you to love them really....

I have a friend named Mike that lived in the french area of canada and he loves it here.

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yes, these processors do exist but no, they arent on any market anywhere (that ive herd of)

Didn't I say Intel does this to save money. By making a big powerful chip then slowing it down and speeding it up little by little they can make more money off of the same chip. 20 dollars Intel is going to come out with a faster version of the Pentium 4 extream as soon as the calculated demand for it goes down.

*edit* Read what Microsoft has to say about 64bit processing and "3D animators, digital artists, and game developers"  Windows XP 64bit What is this... 3D animatiors, hmm. I wonder what they mean by that  :whistle:  
« Last Edit: June 15, 2004, 02:30:48 PM by Outpost_prime »
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2004, 07:42:51 AM »
Prime is right about the other countries. Even watch the news, you see ship loads of escapees from cuba and other places trying to enter the US.

And how can you draw conclusions when you haven't been there? You'll probably be really surprised when and if you come to the US.

I'm moving this into the Debate forum.

Offline Kramy

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« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2004, 11:46:08 AM »
Quote
Prime is right about the other countries. Even watch the news, you see ship loads of escapees from cuba and other places trying to enter the US.

And how can you draw conclusions when you haven't been there? You'll probably be really surprised when and if you come to the US.

I'm moving this into the Debate forum.

Nope, don't see any of that. ;) We mainly see stuff like Iraqi riots over the US troops treating them inhumainly, etc.

Actually, according to some friends in the US the coverage there is very biased, and you don't get any of the good stuff("good stuff" being "actual stuff"). Apparently some Americans actually bought that the Iraqi people wanted you there. :lol: Well, that's probably cleared up now...

This last week it's been nothing but election stuff though. Man...all the choices are suck-ups to the US. If one gets in this will blow. <_< *envisions jobs and natural resources flowing into the US*(and missle defense turrets being set up)

Oh, and I guess you're right about my first comment. I can't really speak for other countries I haven't travelled to, so I'll change it to: "I doubt even 1% of Canadians(currently living in Canada) want to live in America."

I can't really speak for the Canadians that have moved down there(by choice), since I obviously don't have contact with all of them.  
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Offline Coconut Monkey

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« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2004, 03:43:19 AM »
Quote
All new AMD processors have some 64 bit capabilities (they aren't true 64 bit processors, actually, they're 48 bit but the width is still wider than Intel's 32bits consumer processors)
That's a bit misleading. The 48-bits you refer to is the maximum virtual address space, or to be precise 256Tb (yowzers!). The A64 only has a maximum physical address space of 40-bits, or to be precise 1Tb, since it's obvious we won't going near that amount of RAM for a while yet.
Quote
as soon as they make the 7 gigers quit triping over themselves, then the 5 gigs will be out for consumer use, and so on
Mhz are not much of a performance indicator anymore. Take a look at AMD and Intel's P-M processors - they're concentrating more on the internal design and efficiency of a processor instead of sheer raw clockspeed. I hear Intel are planning to slowly move over to the P-M architecture as a result.
Quote
Think about the P4 Extream that thing is so expensive that having dual xeons is cheaper and faster. When you think about it new xeons have hyperthreading. A dual xeon with hyperthreading is like having quad processors only that it's like $300-$400 cheaper.
Think about an Operton instead. Far better performance in server applications. :D
Quote
Intel is already making a 64bit processor for the mainstream
They sure are. In fact, they're copying AMD's design. Almost Completely. Tech documents from both companies are identical in many places. Why? AMD made their design open source, so all Intel had to do was grab it and make a few changes here and there.
Quote
AMD's cheapo processor, the duron, is gonna have a new name and is gonna be for socket 754 and it can still blowout a celeron now more then ever
Yes indeed, it's called "Sempron". Based on the A64 (but without the 64-bittiness, and only 256Kb of L2 cache), it will debut on the socket A platform, extending the life of this old yet trusty socket format. Sempron will then move on to socket 754 under the codename of "Paris", before making its way to socket 939 under the codename "Palermo".
« Last Edit: June 17, 2004, 03:45:27 AM by Coconut Monkey »
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2004, 07:44:34 AM »
Quote
Mhz are not much of a performance indicator anymore. Take a look at AMD and Intel's P-M processors - they're concentrating more on the internal design and efficiency of a processor instead of sheer raw clockspeed. I hear Intel are planning to slowly move over to the P-M architecture as a result.

exactly, a better measure is giga/teraflops (number of floating point instructions per second). What makes a processor better is how efficiently it uses one clock cycle, instead of how fast the clock speed is. (That's why an AMD 2.6 ghz can beat out an Intel 3 ghz, because it's more efficient per clock cycle).

Btw Zircon, you say "3d modeling apps use hardware mode." The only way to directly access the hardware under the windows environment without installing "fake drivers" onto the system is with OpenGL or DirectX. DirectX handles transformation, lighting, and rasterization. The program tells DirectX what to do, DirectX does it. The program does not. (Yes, I've programmed it before a little bit)

So therefore, games and 3d modeling apps alike are using much of the same code, which is all run by the processor.

Offline Zircon

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« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2004, 09:53:40 AM »
Quote
Btw Zircon, you say "3d modeling apps use hardware mode." The only way to directly access the hardware under the windows environment without installing "fake drivers" onto the system is with OpenGL or DirectX. DirectX handles transformation, lighting, and rasterization. The program tells DirectX what to do, DirectX does it. The program does not. (Yes, I've programmed it before a little bit)

So therefore, games and 3d modeling apps alike are using much of the same code, which is all run by the processor.

*sigh* Ok, let me answer that with a couple of questions.

1: If that is the case why not use the graphic card, it should give a tremendous boost?

2: How come AMD processors perform badly in 3d modelling applications even when they render a scene without raytracing options (in other words no hyperthreading) ?
 
(The normal scanline renderer doesn't have hyperthreading support)

3: Why are opengl and directx the only accesss points (communicators), what about Mesa, QuickDraw 3D,  Reality Lab,  BRender and RenderWare. They may be old but they are independent and have no connection with either opengl or directx, (mesa = opengl clone) Is it an impossibility that discreet developed their own API in order to "talk" with the hardware? and isn't that one of the reasons why 3dsmax can switch between the mac and pc or does the mac use directx (think not), that only leaves us with opengl which i doubt is "sophisticated" enough.

4: If directx x can be explained in three simple steps transformation, lighting, and rasterization is there no other difference between directx9 and directx1 other then optimisations?

5:  "Why the heck did you do the initial renderer development as a Render Effect?
In 3DStudio MAX, a plugin renderer is required to do much more than just render the scene.  A plugin renderer is responsible for enumerating the entire scene, sub-system sequencing, bitmap writing, gbuffer management, etc, etc.  It must force each object to generate a valid mesh, generate all the vertex normals including smoothing group processing, generate all the shadowmaps, create a complete and valid g-buffer, trigger the set up of all auto-reflect style maps, etc.  While this is certainly doable, and the prototype Max 1.2 ray trace texture actually did much of this, it is an incredible amount of tedious (and potentially buggy) code to deal with when one is trying to proof of concept a renderer.  As a developer, it can be very difficult to tell if it is the scene enumeration, or actual rendering that is broken when a problem arises.  In many ways, this huge speedbump in development is what has kept us, and likely many others, from experimenting with actual renderer code in Max.

Render Effects on the other hand, is the perfect place to hang a prototype renderer.  Why?  A Render Effect is a very simple plugin to implement, and when its single method Apply() is called by Max, it gets handed three things, a complete and valid enumerated scene, a bitmap, and a handle to the render progress dialog.  That's all you need.  The enumerated scene is in the form of a single C++ object called the RenderGlobalContext, and contains the entire scene, with prepped shadow maps, meshs, etc. ready to go, and the bitmap contains a valid g-buffer, handily prerendered by the Default Scanline Renderer.  The bitmap itself is the VFB.  In other words, a developer can focus totally on the task of generating an image, which is the real purpose behind writing a renderer.  The rendering technology can be incrementally implemented, with much less concern about compatibility.

The Render Effect API is much closer to the way Renderer plugins should have been implemented, with the scene enumerator being a separate plugin altogether.  Had this been the case, I suspect there probably would have been many more renderer plugins developed over the years.  If anyone out there wants to experiment with writing a renderer for MAX, steer clear of Renderer plugins during your prototyping phase, and head for Render Effects.  You will be far less frustrated.

Also, for us (Scott and Steve), working this way provided a convenient place to delineate our coding responsibilities for these early stages of development.  One developer can focus on the core rendering/rayserver tech, and the other can focus on the scene enumeration tech, and we don't need to sync code nearly as much.

Brazil does not require DirectX and is not supported under Windows 98."

Is splutterfish (Brazils creator) lying?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2004, 10:24:42 AM by Zircon »

Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2004, 01:02:45 PM »
In reference to it running on Macs: The code is really different, obviously. They have their own method to do stuff like that.
That's besides the point anyway. Macs don't have Intel or AMD processors in them, now do they?

Quote
Is it an impossibility that discreet developed their own API in order to "talk" with the hardware?
Windows won't let the program directly communicate with the hardware. User mode software can't touch kernel mode or the actual physical components directly, except thru drivers.
And 3dsmax never installed drivers onto my system when I installed it, so the only way to do it is thru software, then blitting using the Win GDI, or thru an interface like DirectX, OpenGL which do install drivers on the system.
(and yes there are other HAL's like those two, but those two just happen to be the most common)

Quote
If that is the case why not use the graphic card, it should give a tremendous boost?
Because DirectX decides what the graphics card does and what the software does, based on what it thinks are the hardware capabilities. The program could also be designed to use an older version of DirectX or be designed to use software only.

(If you've ever programmed using DirectX, you know what I mean)

That Brazil renderer doesn't mention the hardware at all. From the looks of it it could be doing the rendering in memory, then using the Windows GDI (note: Op2 uses GDI in windowed mode, if you don't know what I mean) to blit the result to the screen. No H/W needed, but slower.

Quote
4: If directx x can be explained in three simple steps transformation, lighting, and rasterization is there no other difference between directx9 and directx1 other then optimisations?

3D is not the only part of DirectX. there are many different segments of DirectX. For example:
Direct 3d Retained mode - simple 3d renderer, slower
Direct 3d Immediate mode - faster but more complex renderer
DirectDraw - 2d drawing operations
DirectSound - sound, 3d sound
DirectInput - input from mouse, keyboard, joystick, handles Force feedback
DirectPlay - standard networking/lobby interface
DirectMusic - MIDI player in DirectX
DirectShow - Video player in DirectX

Therefore updates may be upgrades to one part and not others.

Offline Zircon

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« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2004, 02:09:02 PM »
How come you avoided the most important one of them all #2 ?

Offline Oprime

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« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2004, 03:25:08 PM »
Yay!!! It's coconut monkey. I've been waiting for you to join us :D. Coco knows his stuff B)
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Offline RedXIII

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« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2004, 04:03:06 PM »
Well, not being as technically skilled as you people, I can tell one thing about experiance with AMD/Intel processors. AMD Processors burn out a lot more quickly than Intel. Not only that, but I asked a friend of mine, a comp specialist, who even said that he seen that a few years down the road, AMD Processors tend to start having problems due to deterioration caused by something (He was not sure weither it was heat or what-not).

Intel's processors may be sub-par in raw speed, but I would not like to have my hardware malfunctioning down the road. Especially if something ends up sapping me of all my cash and I am unable to purchase a new computer.
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Offline Coconut Monkey

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« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2004, 12:44:07 AM »
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op2hacker & Zircon -
Wait.....what are you guys arguing about now? Is is still about 3d rendering programs using the video card or not for the final render frame? :D
Quote
Well, not being as technically skilled as you people, I can tell one thing about experiance with AMD/Intel processors. AMD Processors burn out a lot more quickly than Intel. Not only that, but I asked a friend of mine, a comp specialist, who even said that he seen that a few years down the road, AMD Processors tend to start having problems due to deterioration caused by something (He was not sure weither it was heat or what-not).

Intel's processors may be sub-par in raw speed, but I would not like to have my hardware malfunctioning down the road. Especially if something ends up sapping me of all my cash and I am unable to purchase a new computer.
I have yet to see such deterioration. I wouldn't be surprised if the problem has more to do with insufficient cooling, incorrectly installing it, or lack of maintenance. If this problem does in fact exist, you have to ask yourself this - what computer user would stick with a single CPU for that long? Obviously those with an extremely limited budget or lesser needs (word processing, emailing), but those kinds of people would probably buy an Intel, if you think about it. Gamers in the know tend to buy AMD products due to their superior performance in 3d gaming, and they certainly would not hang on to the same processor for their main gaming box for 3 years.
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Offline Zircon

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« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2004, 05:14:12 AM »
Quote
Quote
op2hacker & Zircon -
Wait.....what are you guys arguing about now? Is is still about 3d rendering programs using the video card or not for the final render frame? :D
:blush: I've wondered that as well...

The intitial "debate" was how the AMD performed in 3d modelling applications and if the graphics card had anything to do with the rendering.
After a lot of piethrowing it seemed settled, graphics cards has nada (nothing) to do with it (exception: quadro, gelato, softmodded geforce) and AMD processors perform badly in such applications.

This area entered now is simply the gut need of one person wanting to prove me wrong by dragging me into an area i know hardly nothing of, but we're probably both wandering the dark because if it is as "simple" (not literally speaking) and the thing is rendered in memory alone it would be both inefficient and slow. Somehow they solve it and somehow the superior AMD (for games) perform badly even though it "uses the same code"  :find: (nitpicks: even without hyperthreading ofcourse)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2004, 05:16:36 AM by Zircon »