Outpost 2: Revamp

[Lugia3]

Recently there has been discussion about creating an "update" for the game that would improve neglected features of the game, such as panthers, scorpions, and repairs. How many of you guys would support this?

Here is my contribution to the topic:
Units and unit groups should have a slider that marks the percentage of health remaining before the unit automatically flees and heads for the nearest marked garage for repairs. Garages could also be marked to be used by ally units. This would open up numerous strategic advantages, like building a forward base with many garages to extend the length of your supply lines. Doing this would also require an upgrade to the system used to store units in garages, it would have to keep them "active" (teleporting them off map) instead of turning them into a number (that effectively killed them, as demonstrated in Renegades mission 3).

Spiders and repair vechs should also be able to "patch" units to full health, but the patch decays back down to half health after 30 seconds. They should also have a toggle button that sets them to automatically repair nearby friendly units and buildings in a designated area or in a set radius around the unit. This would take less focus on keeping your base from falling apart and more focus on the objective, for example in Eden Population I by tick 3000 storms are hammering your original base location so badly that you only have seconds to do other things before having to send in a repair team.

Scorpions, I don't have any ideas for them. Panthers were already discussed here. Some units could be rebalanced, such as tiger construction cost and panther turrets.

Tigers seem like very tall units, maybe arachnids and repair vechs could move under them. Command centers could be given a dock where the colony symbol "peg" stands. Evacuation transports could load specific colonists there for jump starting a fallen ally who has lost everyone.

Post your ideas on features that could be included in a patch. And yes, I know the source code would be needed to accomplish something like this, and many days of programing would be needed. It would also need a complicated menu revamp to avoid messing up the campaign and colony games.

[CK9]

One thing that always frustrated me in multi was the lack of ability to share tubes through ally buildings.  Though, since alliances can be made and broken at random, it's justifiable.

I personally don't like the idea of automating combat units any further than they have been already.  It makes things easier and takes a bit away from things.  Automating repair vehicles, on the other hand, seems like it could add to the game quite well if done correctly.

[TH300]

This poll covers too much for me to simply vote with "yes" or "no". Generally I do not support changing any unit's capabilities or properties (though I can support this in special cases).

I think that adding some automation to the game (such as repairing) would drastically change the gaming experience. Right now op2 is much about who can click and use hotkeys most quickly. Imo that's a bad basis for gameplay. Automating some aspects could allow players (especially new ones) to focus more on tactics. This could help us attract new players who would otherwise have trouble with the outstanding amount of micromanagement in op2. However, I think that automation should be limited. For example I don't like the (hypothetical) idea of adding scripted behaviors to units (such as automatic fire and retreat for ESG).

Ideas:

• production queues
• research queues
• improved garages: add a "repair" button to units that makes them drive to the nearest garage, get repaired, leave the garage (not sure what it should do then - driving back to where it came from seems like a bad idea, since it would be an easy target).
• EMP'ed units should not forget what they were doing (possibly requiring an rcc)
• more settings for multiplayer games: unbreakable alliances, more control over starting resources, tech tree and tech level, etc.

Well, there are many ideas. But who's going to implement them? All we have is the disassmbly. Yes, its possible to work with that, but adding the things mentioned above would involve more changes than everything before. I don't see that any of the people capable of doing this have the time to do it. Also, rewriting the whole game could possibly be easier.

[Highlander]

I'd suggest a few easier things:

- Adjust unit/structure cost
- Fix Sticky foam upgrade research so that it actually works
- Adjust weapon damage/range
- Add some more missile options ?
- Increase spider repair capabilities
- Adjust research durations


Overall goal would be to adjust known issues in Eden vs Plymouth balance.

Also it would be nice to get Flashy's colonist trading and Arklons wall-near-lava hacks into the normal game.

[CK9]

Wait...the stickyfoam research doesn't work?  That's news to me...

What about unit upgrades?  I know it's convenient that all the units auto-patched, but what if they didn't?  For things that would just be a software patch, that would just be transmitted, but complete drive train refits...It would also be nice to be able to choose the non-upgraded form of the unit for when you need to conserve resources.

[TH300]

[...]

Overall goal would be to adjust known issues in Eden vs Plymouth balance.

And who decides what is an issue and what not? Who decides how to make it balanced? What do we do about breaking of the original missions?

What about unit upgrades? I know it's convenient that all the units auto-patched, but what if they didn't? For things that would just be a software patch, that would just be transmitted, but complete drive train refits...It would also be nice to be able to choose the non-upgraded form of the unit for when you need to conserve resources.

That would turn Outpost 2 into another game, a change that I would dislike. Nice idea for a sequel though.

[CK9]

Example of imbalance in eden and plym units:

When causing damage, the ESG causes enemy units to auto-attack.  Meanwhile, the AcidCloud does not.  I personally think that either the both should or both should not trigger an auto-retaliation.

[TH300]

Example of imbalance in eden and plym units:

When causing damage, the ESG causes enemy units to auto-attack.  Meanwhile, the AcidCloud does not.  I personally think that either the both should or both should not trigger an auto-retaliation.

Agreed. Or even better: let the player choose.

But not every thing is as clear. My point was, that we'll have to start a discussion about balance, which can take a long time. And seeing that previous discussions of this subject have led to no agreement, I doubt we'll find an agreement now.

The problem with balancing is, that there are too many different strategies. You can't be sure, that there is no strategy which you don't know which makes one side superior. Furthermore, the game has different modes (morale, disasters, the map itself, etc.) which influence gameplay quite a lot. Is it really possible to make Eden and Plymouth equally strong under all settings?

[CK9]

Balancng isn't about makig them equals under all strategies, it is about making them equal on the default setting.  The advantage plym has early game is nowhere near as large as the advantage eden has late game, and I think most people here agree that is a fact.  I think the somewhat low accuracy of the thor's hammer was an attempt to balance this, but it is too easy to overcome that and be a wave of destruction.  What if we were to adjust the damage settings?  What if the weapon caused damage to the platform it is on?  The first could be dome the same way things have been changed, the second might take more than we are currently capable of.

[Hooman]

Is it really possible to make Eden and Plymouth equally strong under all settings?

Yes! ... By making both colonies identical.

Actually, I've long been impressed with Starcraft's balance of three rather distinct colonies. Outpost 2 has two not all that distinct colonies, and balance discussions keep coming up. Mind you this isn't something I find very noticeable outside of multiplayer, due to the structure of the game and the AI.

It kind of makes you wonder if perhaps better balance can be achieved by adding new units, rather than editing existing units. That approach might also work well for not interfering with the original game if the new units aren't used. Perhaps a simple on/off switch of some kind? Of course this ignores the difficulty of actually adding new units to the game.
 

[Highlander]

Well, by now the game has existed for a long time. So far nothing substantial has been added to the game.. most of what has been done has been editing what was already there (At least it seems so to me)

So, if a revamp was to be attempted I would think it would come in the form of more editing and perhaps tinkering with unit and weapon's values/costs.
If we go about with too many grand plans, I would fear it would all come to the same conclusion as all the other projects posted on these forums - lots of talk and ideas, not so much substantial produced. (Feel free to prove me wrong though!!)


The balancing of OP2 would mostly be directed at Multiplayer, since this is were most issues arise.
Some of the things I mentioned in my previous post would certainly be nice to work into the game itself, but mostly one would attempt to balance multiplayer.
Singleplayer is already ok I would say. It certainly isn't broken.. (And if it isn't broken, why try to fix it?)

[TH300]

Balancng isn't about makig them equals under all strategies, it is about making them equal on the default setting.

You mixed up "strategies" and "settings".
The default setting is disasters on, morale unsteady. Most people don't play that. And if we decided to care only about disasters off, morale steady, that would be a punch in the face for all the people who prefer to play with morale unsteady.

The advantage plym has early game is nowhere near as large as the advantage eden has late game, and I think most people here agree that is a fact.

Exactly this is an example where people didn't agree.

I think the somewhat low accuracy of the thor's hammer was an attempt to balance this, but it is too easy to overcome that and be a wave of destruction.

Why care about Thor's Hammer if Acid Cloud is even stronger?

What if we were to adjust the damage settings?  What if the weapon caused damage to the platform it is on?  The first could be dome the same way things have been changed, the second might take more than we are currently capable of.

We can think about it. Need to do excessive testing, before your question can be answered.

It kind of makes you wonder if perhaps better balance can be achieved by adding new units, rather than editing existing units.

That would be wonderful.

So, if a revamp was to be attempted I would think it would come in the form of more editing and perhaps tinkering with unit and weapon's values/costs.
If we go about with too many grand plans, I would fear it would all come to the same conclusion as all the other projects posted on these forums - lots of talk and ideas, not so much substantial produced.

That's right. But still, if all our changes are mere edits of some values, there are ways to do it well or not so well.

The balancing of OP2 would mostly be directed at Multiplayer, since this is were most issues arise.

Agreed. But again, there is not one setting "multiplayer". "multiplayer" are several possible settings.

[CK9]

QUOTE (CK9 @ Mar 12 2012, 05:57 PM)
Balancng isn't about makig them equals under all strategies, it is about making them equal on the default setting.

You mixed up "strategies" and "settings".
The default setting is disasters on, morale unsteady. Most people don't play that. And if we decided to care only about disasters off, morale steady, that would be a punch in the face for all the people who prefer to play with morale unsteady.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood me here.  A wave of supernova lynx sneaking into an undefended base is a very unbalanced strategy.  No matter how well balanced we can make the two colonies, players will always fid a strategy that leaves a huge imbalance.

By default settings, I mean the actual unit comparison.  Eden has a HUGE firepower advantage over plym that makes it impossible to beat eden without one or more of the following being true:

[/li]
• The person playing eden is inexperienced
  
• The person playing Eden is preoccupied with a fairly large attack from a third player
  
• You rush them early game with a good number of microwave lynx
  

QUOTE  

The advantage plym has early game is nowhere near as large as the advantage eden has late game, and I think most people here agree that is a fact.

Exactly this is an example where people didn't agree.

I don't see where there is room for disagreement.  An upgraded microwave lynx attack has been showed to be moderately easy to hold off against in several games.  Meanwhile, an acidcloud/thor's grouping (even with lynx) is devistating without the use of emp missiles.  However, the ammount of ore that goes into making the missiles makes it very difficult to effectively use them to fend off the attacks.

QUOTE 
I think the somewhat low accuracy of the thor's hammer was an attempt to balance this, but it is too easy to overcome that and be a wave of destruction.

Why care about Thor's Hammer if Acid Cloud is even stronger?

That's like arguing "Why care about SOPA or PIPA when ACTA is so much worse?"  Just because one is stronger doesn't mean that the other doesn't have a huge impact.  Also, how is the acid cloud stronger?  Acid cloud is area of effect only, thor's has a directed attack with an element of area of effect.  The main advantage the acid cloud has is that it doesn't trigger auto-retaliation.

[Highlander]

I don't see where there is room for disagreement.  An upgraded microwave lynx attack has been showed to be moderately easy to hold off against in several games.  

Also, how is the acid cloud stronger?  Acid cloud is area of effect only, thor's has a directed attack with an element of area of effect.  The main advantage the acid cloud has is that it doesn't trigger auto-retaliation.

A Micro rush is nigh impossible to fend off if you are an Eden player. Only exception is Pie (Or similar map), or where you have an obstacle between yourself and the rushing player (I.e an AI or another player). At least this is true as long as skill levels are the same.


Acid is stronger just because of the area effect. When two armies meet head on, the Acids will kill/damage 9 units, while Thors will do the same to 1 unit at a time.

[Lugia3]

My strategy is to remain of the defensive until I'm sure I can win. I try and have at least 1 more VF than anyone else, and a stable ore income when building tigers at each. 3-4 groups of 32 tigers, assisted by some spaceports, is enough to punch through any Eden fortification.

A few weeks ago me, High, and Drib had another match. High killed Drib early and we both went into an arms race. 1500 marks later I decided I had enough to kill High. I sent in 3 full armies of tigers with 2 EMP missile spaceports backing them up. Both ways into Highs base were thin, only letting a few units through at a time, and were heavily defended. By the time I had punched into the clearing I had already lost 2 armies and my remaining army was half dead. I killed a few areas as I went to the CC, and won.

The point I'm trying to make in the above rant/brag is that Plymouth will usually lose 1v1 with an Eden player late game. Plymouth has to rely on gorilla warfare and more tactics. It all depends on having a stronger economy and manufacturing capability than your Eden opponents, and a motivation.

In my opinion, the balance between Eden and Plymouth doesn't need to be patched unless we change something critical.

[TH300]

I'm afraid you've misunderstood me here.  A wave of supernova lynx sneaking into an undefended base is a very unbalanced strategy.  No matter how well balanced we can make the two colonies, players will always fid a strategy that leaves a huge imbalance.

The situation that you describe can happen, yea. But imo its not an example of imbalance. A game is imbalanced if there is a strategy for one faction that will always win if used by a good player. Or: If in a series of games between two equally skilled players one faction will win more than 50% of the time. (assuming that there are only two factions)

By default settings, I mean the actual unit comparison.  Eden has a HUGE firepower advantage over plym that makes it impossible to beat eden without one or more of the following being true:
*snip*

One may argue that Eden can hardly defend against emp missiles and is thus inferior. See below.

I don't see where there is room for disagreement.  An upgraded microwave lynx attack has been showed to be moderately easy to hold off against in several games.  Meanwhile, an acidcloud/thor's grouping (even with lynx) is devistating without the use of emp missiles.  However, the ammount of ore that goes into making the missiles makes it very difficult to effectively use them to fend off the attacks.

Apparently, for some people its not hard to spam missiles. The disagreement is proven by threads like this or this. They are basically about the question whether Acid/Thors or EMP missiles give the bigger advantage. Another thread which may be of interest could be "Balancing OP2".


And as we can see, there are even people who think that the "balance" is alright as it is.

[CK9]

-.- I'm s*** at communicating my thoughts

From what I have seen, a micro rush is not close to impossible to fend off as:
1) both microwave and laser weapons require the same research steps and around the same time in research
2) both units are similarly, if not exactly the same, in ore costs
3) unless both colonies are very close, eden has plenty of time to increase the number of units it has before the microwave units arrive.

missle spamming is only successful on maps wherein plym can get a good number of mines and smelters operational.  The time spent building this up is only available in games with more than one opponent or very large maps.

I'll try to post more when I get back from class, as this is proving to be a rather interesting discussion and I am enjoying reading the counter-arguments.

[TH300]

From what I have seen, a micro rush is not close to impossible to fend off as:
1) both microwave and laser weapons require the same research steps and around the same time in research
2) both units are similarly, if not exactly the same, in ore costs
3) unless both colonies are very close, eden has plenty of time to increase the number of units it has before the microwave units arrive.

In an unmarked game on Pie between two equally skilled players, one Eden, one Plymouth, micro rush wins. At least that's what I observed in the rare cases where I saw this. On different maps the situation may be different. But that proves my argument of different maps/settings effecting balance.

missle spamming is only successful on maps wherein plym can get a good number of mines and smelters operational.  The time spent building this up is only available in games with more than one opponent or very large maps.

Yea, but that's just one aspect, of unknown impact. We have to evaluate the complete equation.

I'll try to post more when I get back from class, as this is proving to be a rather interesting discussion and I am enjoying reading the counter-arguments.

I'm also enjoying this discussion.

[CK9]

I think it would be worthwhile to test that by having two "equally skilled" players switch colonies over two games.  It would be interesting to see if that has an impact on the results.

Yes, looking over it maps do have a major balance factor.  Perhaps we could use this to correct the issue rather than changing any game settings?  I haven't done the coding end of making a multiplayer map yet, but building the terrain itself is certainly much easier than going through numerous tests trying to decide when one unit has been balanced.

The ability to process large quantities of ore is one of the biggest factors in effectively spamming missles, especially when you're trying to build up units to deal with an oncming army at the same time.  The second you start having to pause your production, your chances have decreased.

[Highlander]

1 micro upgraded is worth nearly 2 laser lynx. Which means you need a much bigger army as Eden.
In addition Plymouth has stickyfoam, which can immobilize the enemy forces.

As long as the map is like pie chart or you have a similar base location, bottlenecks can help the eden player, but once mobility is a question it's just gg.



As for missile spamming it's hard to counter if you can't get at your opponents rare, more so if he has a lot of it. In any case, those missiles seems to be coming rather cheap compared to their potential damage.

[TH300]

I think it would be worthwhile to test that by having two "equally skilled" players switch colonies over two games.  It would be interesting to see if that has an impact on the results.

Indeed. Would have to do more than 2 games though, because one can always be (un)lucky. So, who are the players to test this?

Yes, looking over it maps do have a major balance factor.  Perhaps we could use this to correct the issue rather than changing any game settings?  I haven't done the coding end of making a multiplayer map yet, but building the terrain itself is certainly much easier than going through numerous tests trying to decide when one unit has been balanced.

I'm not sure what your suggestion is. We can't just tell people to not play Pie any more (or even take the map out of the game). I like how op2 has very different types of maps. Taking away map types would take away from the goodness of op2.
 

[CK9]

With the maps I prefer to play on (Fractures, Arund the World, etc) there is more than enough time for a suitably sized force to be built up.  The smaller the map, though, the more likely it is that the rush might succeed.  Even if they do have stickyfoam, though, it isn't much more than a pain in the backside.  If you have at least kept up with vehicle priduction and research at an equal rate, by the time micro is upgraded and sticky is available, you should have emp almost ready.  Unless the person playing plym is very agressive, they usually back into a defensive position the first time they get hit by the first eden emp.

Whenever I spammed emp missiles, it wasn't the rare that was the big problem.  I ran out of common metals much faster than rare metals every time.  Of course, I stuck with emp and rpg lynx and sometimes spiders to get to the disabled enemy units fast.

[TH300]

If I do a micro rush against Eden I don't take the time to upgrade anything. I rush as soon as I have 10-15 micro lynxes. (upgrades are a good idea, though, if rushing against Plymouth)

Missiles are probably most useful if used with care, i.e. you use them in the right moment, just when your tanks are close enough to the enemy tanks to kill them in the moment the missile comes in. This allows a Plymouth player to eliminate a small army for the cost of one missile and maybe a few tanks.

[CK9]

And when not upgraded, micros and lasers are on much more even ground.  Not to mention that them being at your lines gives you an advantage of faster reinfrcement.

Most of the times that I have used missile spamming, it has been when I don't have the units to be able to take on more than a handful of enemy units.  That says more about my unit handling than anything, though, heh`
``

[TH300]

without upgrades lasers and micros are not at all equal. Laser does 0 concussion damage, micro 20. Penetration damage is about the opposite. I don't know the exact damage formulas, but concussion damage is what matters most against units with light armor, such as lynxes. Furthermore, the laser has a higher reload time. Hence a microwave lynx wins against a laser lynx.

But I was a bit imprecise in my post above. Usually there is enough time to research Heat Dissipation Systems, which is only available to Plymouth early in game. Hence, micros are even more powerful.