My Thoughts On Panther Tanks

[Lugia3]

Currently, panthers are caught between the lynx and tiger. They have no direct advantage over the other combat chassis's except for being about as cheap as a lynx and trading some speed for armor, a tactical advantage.

Anyway, I have some hypothetical thoughts on panthers. If anyone ever makes an OP3 panthers could function as mechanized infantry, or APC meant for holding and fighting foot soldiers. Their armor could be more specialized in defending themselves from small arms fire, and they could have 3 turrets, a regular anti-tank gun (EMP, RPG, Railgun, Micro/laser) with 2 suppression guns on top for fighting infantry.

They could even sacrifice their APC quality's to hold advanced weapons, like a tiger turret on steroids (limited capacitor, slow regen), splash artillery variations, maybe even a forward firing rocket barrage or a mobile AA platform. The weaponry could be lifted off altogether and replaced with extra engines. Trailers could be hitched up to them for hauling important cargoes across the battlefield.

Basically, I think that panthers could function as modular special forces vehicles.

[CK9]

As they currently exist, Panthers are great for the defensive line: THey're just quick enough to move around the perimeter of the average sized main base while having more than enough armor to fend off a blitz attack with lynx.  Heck, even with the lower cost, they can be made in enough volume to hold off a tiger attack.

As to your thoughts on how they can be changed for an OP3, I'm not a big fan of the infantry idea, as it adds in another micro-management aspect.  Same for removeable turrets.  The more micro-management you add in to a game, the more areas you create that can bring in new problems.  Keep in mind that one of the things that hurt OP1 was the overwhelming micro-management.  Yes, the bugs from being pushed out too fast hurt a lot more, but even if they had worked out all or even most of the bugs, that would have hurt it.

However, I do think panthers need some additional incentive for their use.  Currently, people would rather spam lynxes until they can afford a good number of tigers.

[Arklon]

Min/maxing = good, so Lynx and Tigers are good. Panthers aren't the best in anything, and unlike the jump from Lynx or Panthers to Tigers, damage does not upscale at all going from Lynx to Panther. In CCF2 we added a few new research topics that give it dual turrets and +1 speed (to make it the same speed as an unupgraded Lynx). Problem is, they're pretty OP when you get these upgrades along with the two that already exist in the vanilla game (that upgrade armor and HP); compared to Tigers, they're faster, do the same damage, cost less, have the same armor rating, and have almost as much HP.

[Lugia3]

Min/maxing = good, so Lynx and Tigers are good. Panthers aren't the best in anything, and unlike the jump from Lynx or Panthers to Tigers, damage does not upscale at all going from Lynx to Panther. In CCF2 we added a few new research topics that give it dual turrets and +1 speed (to make it the same speed as an unupgraded Lynx). Problem is, they're pretty OP when you get these upgrades along with the two that already exist in the vanilla game (that upgrade armor and HP); compared to Tigers, they're faster, do the same damage, cost less, have the same armor rating, and have almost as much HP.

That must have been fun to see.    

[Arklon]

I suppose another thing one could try is make them resistant, but not invulnerable, to EMP, i.e. the chance a Panther will get successfully EMP'ed is less than it is for other VF units (not sure how to handle EMP missiles). That would be a valuable trait to make up for the lack of damage increase.

[CK9]

I like that idea a lot.  Maybe a 25% max boost to emp resistance?  Or do units not have any resistance currently?  I know I've seen a few cases where the EMP looked like it hit, but didn't do anything.  Then there were a few where one of two units hit at the same time came back online faster than the other.

[Arklon]

I like that idea a lot.  Maybe a 25% max boost to emp resistance?  Or do units not have any resistance currently?  I know I've seen a few cases where the EMP looked like it hit, but didn't do anything.  Then there were a few where one of two units hit at the same time came back online faster than the other.

EMP projectiles have an area of effect and is a chance-based effect, though it succeeds more often than it fails. EMP blasts from EMP missiles, tokamaks, geothermal plants, and MHD generators always apply, and the effect lasts much longer than regular EMP. You could cap maximum EMP duration on Panthers to always be the same duration as regular EMP, or somewhere between regular and "blast" duration, instead or alongside of increasing EMP resistance. That way they might be able to be parlayed into an actually reasonable counter to EMP missiles (as currently your options are a) counterspam missiles, b) turtle up in your base with MD spam and try to stall the game until your opponent quits, or c) MD creep up to your opponent's base, which is only really viable at all on La Co).

[Hooman]

I think needing rare for both Panthers and Tigers is part of why Panther's aren't used. Having rare ore basically unlock both at the same time means you'll probably go for the bigger, more powerful option.

If the ore costs were a little less proportional to the increase, if might force more of a balance. As it is, a Tiger costs double the rare ore of a panther, but it also has double the fire power, plus increased armor and HP.

I think having the Panther cost no rare ore, or possibly even just extremely little rare ore, will make them more of a viable option. At least in games where there isn't an excessive amount of rare ore.


Still, the other factors would probably still mean Panthers will be virtually unused if there are no pressing resource constraints.


Maybe Panther damage could be increased 50%, like how GPs get a damage bonus when they're connected to a CC? I also think they could use a bit of a speed boost, even if it's a somewhat high level research topic.
 

[CK9]

From what I used to see, people who have more than one spaceport to spam missiles expands their mining before they have the full ability to defend it.  If they are focusing on an attack on them, then reinforcing the mines goes on the back burner.  Of course, if they have natural defences on their side...well..yea

Edit: I think you have a good point there hooman.  What if panthers had better accuracy (more stable chasis?)?

[Hooman]

I doubt a wheeled panther would be more "stable" than a heavier tracked tiger. But then, I would know nothing of such things. I suppose accuracy might help, but I'm not sure how that would be done, or if there is enough of a point. There isn't a whole lot of accuracy involved in OP2, and I find it tends to have a minor overall effect. Things like increased rates of fire, or increased damage would probably have a much bigger impact on the numbers. I've never really noticed any vehicle in Outpost 2 being particularly inaccurate. You mostly only ever notice the effects if range has been significantly upgraded (like laser lynx that can fire halfway across the map).


As for expansions, I find defenders have a bit of an advantage due to vehicle speed and travel distances/times. Even on small maps, it seems like being able to produce vehicles close to where they're needed is a big advantage. At the very least, it's less of a disruption to build new vehicles while ordering ones around in the field if the two locations are on the same screen, or perhaps just a partial scroll away. Mind you, some of this may be coming from the less than favourable outcomes I have experienced in the few multiplayer games I've played. Perhaps due to inexperience or inability.
 

[CK9]

I doubt a wheeled panther would be more "stable" than a heavier tracked tiger. But then, I would know nothing of such things. I suppose accuracy might help, but I'm not sure how that would be done, or if there is enough of a point. There isn't a whole lot of accuracy involved in OP2, and I find it tends to have a minor overall effect. Things like increased rates of fire, or increased damage would probably have a much bigger impact on the numbers. I've never really noticed any vehicle in Outpost 2 being particularly inaccurate. You mostly only ever notice the effects if range has been significantly upgraded (like laser lynx that can fire halfway across the map).

I meant as compared to the lynx with stability.  It already has significantly better mobility than the tiger, but the better armor over the lynx just never helps it.

An experment I did once showed that the accuracy of each shot fired for the beam weapons has an effect on the damage done.  Well...not so much an experiment as using the unit reference tutorial for some wonton destruction.

Edit: It might be fair to say that the panther is lower to the ground than the tiger, would it not?  That would give reason to belive it has a better chance of hitting areas that are less armored...

As for expansions, I find defenders have a bit of an advantage due to vehicle speed and travel distances/times. Even on small maps, it seems like being able to produce vehicles close to where they're needed is a big advantage. At the very least, it's less of a disruption to build new vehicles while ordering ones around in the field if the two locations are on the same screen, or perhaps just a partial scroll away. Mind you, some of this may be coming from the less than favourable outcomes I have experienced in the few multiplayer games I've played. Perhaps due to inexperience or inability.

There are quite a few maps where the defender has to go way out of their area in order to get additional ore incoming, especially rare ore.  One key example of this is Rock Garden.  Put yourself in this situation: you're playing as plymoth, you have a mine far outside of your outpost.  You see a large attacking force approaching, but can't tell what it is targeting yet.  Do you put more of your units at your mine, or at the ewak points in the defences at your base?  If the mine is destroyed, you have a small metals setback that you can recover from if you play your cards right.  If they break through your defences while you're moving units back to your base from the mine, there's a good chance that your cc will be destroyed before you've regrouped.

Playing as plymoth versus eden, you will be pressing fast, and pressing hard in order to try to counter the WMD effect of eden's tail end tech tree.  Therefore, it is quite likely that you will be expanding your mining as fast as possible to keep a higher volume of units.

[Hooman]

I meant as compared to the lynx with stability.

Ahh. But then, I suspect accuracy is the same between all three classes. In which case, it would still be a little strange.

I would be a little surprised if a panther was lower to the ground than a tiger. I would expect a wheeled vehicle, especially an off road one, to have more clearance than a tracked vehicle. Particularly since the gaps between wheels affords more opportunity for a vehicle to get stuck with no drive train in contact with the ground. For a tracked vehicle to lose contact with the ground, it would pretty much need to be flipped right over. Either that or high centered, but that would apply to a wheeled vehicle too. Then of course there is the problem with soft terrain, but again, that would apply to both track types (though likely to different degrees). Of course the extra sets of wheels on lynxes and panthers as portrayed in the game do somewhat negate that getting stuck argument. Hmm, I could probably wonder about this all day. Does anyone here have any specific knowledge of military vehicles? I wonder if Plymoth45 would know. Maybe he'll magically appear with some knowledge. *Waves a makeshift wand*


WMD = ... wanton mass destruction?
Oh wait, weapons of mass destruction?
I kind of liked my first guess better.


At any rate, you've got me wondering about the effects of accuracy. This is something I would like to quantify now....

[Freeza-CII]

If it was harder to get tigers then a panther would be used simple as that. to easy to get the tigers.

[Spikerocks101]

Here is my take on the whole "What should we do with Panthers?". I also found the use of Panthers should be used as the Main Battle Tank of an army. It is not super fast, and not super strong, but it is the tank you mass produce to fill all roles, defence and offence. Lynx are used for 2 roles, 1 early game (which, honestly, Lynxs should have damage reduction, but then that would make Plymouth basically useless, so meh) and 2, flanking. Tigers should be used for offence, and for covering a withdrawal. Guard Posts should be used for defence (cheaper and stronger).

Why is Panthers not used for the role they pretty much look fit for, being both defence and offence? Well, honestly, I think it is because of the lack supplies/logistics in Outpost 2. Since it is cheaper and faster to build a new unit, then to repair current units, Panthers don't really have a role to play. If building a tiger costed 10k common per unit, and Outpost 2 had a magical way of sending units that are injured in the front lines back to the garages to get repaired, then people would still use Tigers, but there wouldn't be a billion Tigers on the map. Also, Lynxs can be used for flanking currently, but if you had a chance to snipe a enemy Tiger that was retreating to get repaired, it would be more logical.

Panthers should carry a heavier gun then Lynxs (possible 25% to %50 heavier), and should be better armoured then Lynxs too. Currently, Lynxs are about equal to a Panther, taking a mere 1 or 2 shots more to kill. This make the extra price of operating a Rare mine less worth it, cause the population and amount of resources gathered can go towards mass producing the fast, about equal, Lynx. Lynxs should not have an armour upgrade. Their main use should be flanking, and exploiting holes in the enemies line, not doing this retarded "shoot 1 shot, retreat till reload is done, then shoot again". Maybe even have them have a range penalty or something.

I am just kinda ranting right now, so I will stop.

[Lugia3]

Agreed, Spike. Panthers should carry a 50% heavier weapon, while tigers are using dual lynx guns.

A way for automatic repair would be great also. It takes to long to repair an army to make it a viable solution. By that time you could have already built a replacement army.

[aftercolumbia]

I've never liked Panthers much actually playing the game, but "on paper", they are nice, with a modicum of speed and armor.  I actually play like this:

1. I never put a Maser/Laser on anything but a Lynx or GP.  The chassis expense makes them uneconomical on Panthers and Tigers.

2. I make Lynx with everything, especially Thor's Hammer and ESG.  Lynx/ESG are really good at mining the path of an advancing force without taking any return fire.  I lead with Thor's Hammer when shooting Thor's Hammer vs. Thor's Hammer, and this way, Lynx rarely take return fire.  If he has the room to fall back, and I'm not playing too late into the night  :yawn: I can have a Lynx/Thor walk away from the wreckage of a Tiger/Thor without a scratch.  Then, there's Lynx/Sticky Foam and Lynx/EMP; I call this "fighting dirty".

3. I make Panther only when I can't make Tiger yet.

4. Tigers are brutal, but they can get into a disadvantage in a mobile fight.  In the sort of battle where you really need Tigers and nothing else lasts long enough, Spiders and Repair Vehicles are like smoke rings in a hurricane, especially with big splash weapons like Acid Cloud, EMP (doesn't effect Spiders, but a single GP/Maser/Laser hit can kill one so I hardly notice), Sticky Foam, Thor's Hammer and ESG are involved.  Make sure you can change lines while using Tigers or you're screwed.

5. I do repair lots, and prefer Garages whenever possible.  I also use repair vehicles because a red unit is practically immobile, especially if he's on the fresh lava flow type terrain.  Repair vehicles/Spiders get it up to 50%, so it can get back to the Garage faster.  I surround my bases with Garages and usually have them idle until I need them.  If I have to idle my Vehc or Structure Factory to activate them, no big deal (unless the NME appears just after I've started my new CC kit.)

The main reason I don't make a lot of Panthers is the cost: They only carry a single weapon, and so they don't compete with anything on a cost/weapon basis.  I might if they were fast enough to run out of a weapon damage area after the weapon was fired.  Lynx are, usually, fast enough (occasionally, the dispersion roll gets lucky and leads my Lynx) to "dodge" a Maser/Laser or RG/RPG after it has left the NME muzzle.  Tigers have the best deal for cost/weapon.  GPs get really close, and tubed GPs with good DIRT and the 50% damage bonus are actually better than Tigers, plus you don't need to take them to a Garage.

So, in a nutshell, Panthers just got unlucky in a game balance sense, sigh.

[aftercolumbia]

Min/maxing = good, so Lynx and Tigers are good. Panthers aren't the best in anything, and unlike the jump from Lynx or Panthers to Tigers, damage does not upscale at all going from Lynx to Panther. In CCF2 we added a few new research topics that give it dual turrets and +1 speed (to make it the same speed as an unupgraded Lynx). Problem is, they're pretty OP when you get these upgrades along with the two that already exist in the vanilla game (that upgrade armor and HP); compared to Tigers, they're faster, do the same damage, cost less, have the same armor rating, and have almost as much HP.

So, once I get Outpost 2 running again on my new computer, I'll be trying the Panther again.

Hmm... I'm just thinking of some other vehicle chassis ideas...

Bobcat
Lion
Tomcat (dang, Grumman would sue us)
Calico (that would be Eden's Scorpion, lol)

[CK9]

I usually use tigers for defence when I can make them until I think I can make a final push...then I usually end up seeing all my units getting wiped off the map...

If we can somehow better balance out the panthers in the game, it might be a worthwhile project.

Hooman, I don't know much about military vehicles, but I would think that the heavier armor of the panther would keep it closer to the ground than a lynx.  Also, based off the sprites of the units, the tiger turret just looks taller to me.  

I think most of the lack in chasis balancing is due to the same issue that the massive bugs in OP1 are: being rushed out too fast.  Had the game been given more time for testing, I'm sure this conversation would be moot right now.

[Spikerocks101]

Scorpions are in the corner cutting their wrists because no one will even look at them. Maybe we should strive to make a 15 year later balance patch for once. Finally fix all the bloody issues we have been complaining about for years XD

[Hooman]

That may be tempting, but it can also destroy existing gameplay, which some people might still like. In particular, it may destroy the playability of existing levels or campaigns. It's something that would need a fair amount of testing before committing to anything. I think the proposal would also need broad support, and I suspect a lot of people would only really want it if it was somehow optional, and didn't interfere with multiplayer.

Although, asking if we should roll some rebalancing into a future update might make for an interesting poll/topic?
 

[Lugia3]

I would support it.

[Spikerocks101]

I have played many games where there is both a vanilla game, and a popular patched version for online. I think it should be completely optional, but as long as their is a very easy way of loading the information into the game that needs to be done.

[Arklon]

I doubt we'd ever reach a consensus on what exactly gets changed, probably not even for just EMP missiles. Better off to attempt a total "re-imagining" of balance/progression like Sirbomber tried with MT2.

[CK9]

I would think making a change optional would be much like telling the game to use one tech tree over another...

As to a consensus, the best thing to do would be to find the middle road as often as needed.  Personally, I think panthers and arachnids need the main focus of such a project.  For arachnids, maybe find a way to make them only visible on the map in large numbers?  Since they are smaller vehicles, I would think the method of tracing them would have a harder time.

[TH300]

I believe that panthers would be more useful if people played the game as it was originally meant to be played. I.e. with disasters on and maps which are at least half-open, so that you can't just block one bottleneck with tigers and be safe. But I don't belong to that category, so I better shut up.

It came to my mind that in order to get tigers you have to do reinforced vehicle construction which makes trucks require rare ore which can be a major disadvantage if your rare ore production isn't set up and secured yet. This might matter even more on maps where you have to expand your base to open areas in order to get rare ore.

As for changing the game, I could live with it if it was scientifically reasonable. I.e. if someone with comprehensive knowledge of the subject said that it makes sense - guesses aren't enough.

I personally like the idea of increasing the panther's damage. It could be explained with a better power plant. (of course it would only make certain weapons stronger, not all)

I don't like the idea of weakening lynxes. They aren't too strong. Plus advanced armoring systems takes quite long to research and you could research other things instead.