Poll

Cutting tubes at start new person and should not be done?

Yes, very new person. NEVER do.
4 (50%)
Yes, very new person, but allowed.
0 (0%)
No, allowed, after all it is no rules.
4 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: Cutting A Player Tube  (Read 8010 times)

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2010, 11:41:18 AM »
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Also, Rail Gun is crap.  The "extra" damage it deals as compared to the RPG is so minuscule that it won't matter in a big fire fight (100 concussion/50 penetration for Rail Gun vs 100 concussion/45 penetration for RPG), and even after its rate-of-fire upgrade the Rail Gun is too slow (65 for Rail Gun, 55 for RPG).
So basically we agree that Rail is more or less equal to RPG like I said in my previous post ?  (Except of course for the line of fire limit on Rail)
No, that's exactly the opposite of what I said.  Rail Gun is extremely inferior to RPG.
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Offline Highlander

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« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2010, 12:45:41 PM »
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No, that's exactly the opposite of what I said.  Rail Gun is extremely inferior to RPG.
Perhaps you should test them against each other ingame then. Extremely inferior certainly is not the correct phrasing.
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Offline Spikerocks101

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« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2010, 01:34:41 PM »
Seems the RPG and Railgun are pretty balanced. The Railgun has 10% more penetration then the RPG, but 15% less rate of fire. On reverse, it looks like: RPG has 18% more rate of fire, and 11% less damage. I think they still are with in a 10% difference, so I feel that they both would be pretty evenly matched in a fight, but lynx vs lynx, rpg wins for sure, but tiger vs tiger, the rail would more likely win.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 01:37:58 PM by Spikerocks101 »
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Offline Arklon

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« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2010, 03:01:10 PM »
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Arklon, if we are gonna take player skill levels into the consideration here, wouldn't it be natural to assume that the Eden player knows how to avoid the ESG ? Not just assume that the Plymouth player is the only one who knows how to move units around ?

Secondly, if we are comparing weapons - wouldn't it be more natural to compare Acid vs ESG, rather than Thor vs ESG ?
Acid's have virtually the same cost as ESG and "same" weapon effect. While ESG has 1 tile longer range, Acid's can damage buildings as well. But, perhaps most importantly - Acid's is about twice as strong as ESG.
Maybe, but you may have trouble dodging the ESG mines and killing the ESG units using your Thor's Hammer.
As for acid being stronger than ESG, no. Well, if you're talking about lightly armored targets like lynx and arachnids (which you almost never see), yes; against tigers, ESG outclasses it significantly. The fact that acid can damage buildings isn't much of an upside as it really isn't an efficient weapon for that. You can also turn acid against their owner by charging some scouts into their army, causing them to disperse friendly-fire acid on themselves; ESG doesn't do that.

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Seems the RPG and Railgun are pretty balanced. The Railgun has 10% more penetration then the RPG, but 15% less rate of fire. On reverse, it looks like: RPG has 18% more rate of fire, and 11% less damage. I think they still are with in a 10% difference, so I feel that they both would be pretty evenly matched in a fight, but lynx vs lynx, rpg wins for sure, but tiger vs tiger, the rail would more likely win.
After they get their respective upgrades, the only thing the rail gun has over RPG is +5 penetration damage per shot - and RPG still has a faster rate of fire, which means it gets more DPS anyway. Not to mention RPG can fire over obstacles, whereas rail gun cannot. And, oh yes, they also have the same exact cost. RPG kicks rail gun's ass. I can also attest to that by my own experience when I've played games as Eden and there was no readily accessibly rare ore, and therefore had to use rail gun/EMP vs. RPG/EMP. I got massacred every time. The Plymouth player grabbing some rare ore and throwing ESG and supernovas at me was just the final nail in the coffin.

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- Acids can destroy a line of Plymouth GP's without taking much damage. ESG must either wade through and take considerable beating, or the army must wait or go around. (Or be reinforced with other weapons)
GPs have other issues that make them fairly useless, such as damaging vehicles next to them (which makes throwing them in with a bunch of tanks to form a solid defense line work badly), spontaneously exploding, being disabled due to damage (tanks don't become "disabled"), tigers dealing more DPS (and being mobile to boot), etc. Pre-1.3.5 the structure limit was too low to be able to competitively build smelters/VFs as well as build a line of GPs.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 03:21:01 PM by Arklon »

Offline Highlander

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« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2010, 03:44:46 PM »
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Maybe, but you may have trouble dodging the ESG mines and killing the ESG units using your Thor's Hammer.
As for acid being stronger than ESG, no. Well, if you're talking about lightly armored targets like lynx and arachnids (which you almost never see), yes; against tigers, ESG outclasses it significantly. The fact that acid can damage buildings isn't much of an upside as it really isn't an efficient weapon for that. You can also turn acid against their owner by charging some scouts into their army, causing them to disperse friendly-fire acid on themselves; ESG doesn't do that.
No. Acid is stronger than ESG. 1 ESG tiger vs 1 Acid tiger means Acid tiger will come out of the fight with more than half the health. About same story with Lynx vs Lynx. (ESG gains some ground here though)
That Acid can damage buildings as well is actually quite significant. It might not be as efficient as other weapons, but 4-8 Acids tends to get a couple of smelters or the like down fast enough.
Yes, Acids may damage their own units - true. Pay attention to what is happening, and this rarely prove to be a decisive factor though.


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GPs have other issues that make them fairly useless, such as damaging vehicles next to them (which makes throwing them in with a bunch of tanks to form a solid defense line work badly), spontaneously exploding, being disabled due to damage (tanks don't become "disabled"), tigers dealing more DPS (and being mobile to boot)
Correction: For Plymouth they are fairly useless. For Eden they are a solid boost of defense where they are set up.
Just wall up, set a line of Acid/EMP GP's behind the wall, get them connected to CC. Keep a few extra units as defense, and you'll have a hard nut to crack for any Plymouth player wishing to pass through.
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Offline Arklon

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« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2010, 04:58:43 PM »
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Maybe, but you may have trouble dodging the ESG mines and killing the ESG units using your Thor's Hammer.
As for acid being stronger than ESG, no. Well, if you're talking about lightly armored targets like lynx and arachnids (which you almost never see), yes; against tigers, ESG outclasses it significantly. The fact that acid can damage buildings isn't much of an upside as it really isn't an efficient weapon for that. You can also turn acid against their owner by charging some scouts into their army, causing them to disperse friendly-fire acid on themselves; ESG doesn't do that.
No. Acid is stronger than ESG. 1 ESG tiger vs 1 Acid tiger means Acid tiger will come out of the fight with more than half the health. About same story with Lynx vs Lynx. (ESG gains some ground here though)
That Acid can damage buildings as well is actually quite significant. It might not be as efficient as other weapons, but 4-8 Acids tends to get a couple of smelters or the like down fast enough.
Yes, Acids may damage their own units - true. Pay attention to what is happening, and this rarely prove to be a decisive factor though.


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GPs have other issues that make them fairly useless, such as damaging vehicles next to them (which makes throwing them in with a bunch of tanks to form a solid defense line work badly), spontaneously exploding, being disabled due to damage (tanks don't become "disabled"), tigers dealing more DPS (and being mobile to boot)
Correction: For Plymouth they are fairly useless. For Eden they are a solid boost of defense where they are set up.
Just wall up, set a line of Acid/EMP GP's behind the wall, get them connected to CC. Keep a few extra units as defense, and you'll have a hard nut to crack for any Plymouth player wishing to pass through.
Yes, the Acid vs. ESG scenario there is totally true... if you're not keeping the enemy acid tiger moving (which is total fail with ESG)! If you keep the enemy moving across your mines, which is what the mechanics of the weapon demands you do, you'll notice it magically doesn't suck so much anymore. Making an argument based on a scenario involving massive failure on the Plymouth player's end tells me you're trying too hard grasping at straws to justify that Eden = overpowered, and EMP missiles are fine.
Also, more cheaply produced lasers are going to be more effective than acid cloud at taking down structures (and with the bonus of being one of the best weapons for taking down walls; something acid cloud can't do at all). Again, they're not a very good weapon for that task. Edit: Set up a test. An acid cloud tiger took 19 marks to disable a guard post, and additional 8 marks to destroy it. A laser tiger took 4 marks to disable a guard post, and another ~0.5ish mark after that to destroy it. The acid cloud may be able to take out a few adjacent GPs simultaneously, but lasers will still end up doing it faster, and for less cost.
Also, I don't see how GPs work for just Eden just because of acid cloud. They don't. I also don't see any reason why Plymouth couldn't just build a line of EMP/ESG GPs. I've tried GPs, they're pointless. Just get tigers.

Edit: As another test, I pitted a fully upgraded rail gun tiger against an unupgraded RPG tiger. Guess what? The RPG tiger came out the victor. Now imagine how big the gap between the two is when the RPG gets upgraded. On top of that, an unupgraded RPG lynx vs. a rail gun lynx with a fully upgraded turret will end in a draw, or the RPG lynx just barely managing to win (depends on if the turret happens to be facing the rail gun lynx when the fight starts); though the RPG would win after getting some upgrades as you might imagine.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 05:19:56 PM by Arklon »

Offline Highlander

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« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2010, 05:59:14 AM »
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Yes, the Acid vs. ESG scenario there is totally true... if you're not keeping the enemy acid tiger moving (which is total fail with ESG)! If you keep the enemy moving across your mines, which is what the mechanics of the weapon demands you do, you'll notice it magically doesn't suck so much anymore. Making an argument based on a scenario involving massive failure on the Plymouth player's end tells me you're trying too hard grasping at straws to justify that Eden = overpowered, and EMP missiles are fine.
The only 2 situations where you willingly go through a ESG field is to break a strategically important point (Read bottleneck or just outside base), or if you are in pursuit of a damaged enemy (in which case it makes more sense to flank).
Once the Plymouth player cannot retreat or otherwise force the opponent to move, he will then either have to sustain heavy losses or avoid attacking, which would be the scenario if Plymouth is attacking Eden, Eden is attacking Plymouth base (where Plymouth cannot retreat any further) or if Plymouth is in pursuit of Eden units.
Also once two armies clash head on (As in a base battle or fight for a strategically important point) vehicles will all take instant damage from ESG mines instead of rolling over them - which means Acids will have the upper hand again.

Most of us know ESG works best when the enemy goes straight through a mine field, thus when the roles are reversed we know it's generally a bad idea to go straight at some ESG's even worse to pursue them head on. Hence a Plymouth defending must stay ahead of his opponent and block his every way forward. (With humans this is often quite hard, and you often end up yielding ground) Eden on the other hand, must offensively dodge ESG's. Defensively it's better to stand your ground (preferably dig in with GP's) and trade losses with Plymouth or to use Thor/Acid to make a slow retreat same way Plymouth would.

I do believe a Plymouth without missiles faces an overpowering Eden yes. As mentioned before I also believe missiles in themselves are fine, it's more of the way we play today that makes them abuse able. Then again I don't think I have ever opposed any attempts at making this game more balanced ?


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Also, more cheaply produced lasers are going to be more effective than acid cloud at taking down structures (and with the bonus of being one of the best weapons for taking down walls; something acid cloud can't do at all). Again, they're not a very good weapon for that task.
As I have been trying to explain all along, it's not about the effectiveness of Acid vs buildings, it's the fact that Acid does damage buildings. It means you can wipe away defenses on a base/mining outpost and proceed to destroy the base afterwards without involving any lasers/rail's etc. At also means you have to react to the acids wherever they are or risk losing buildings.


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Also, I don't see how GPs work for just Eden just because of acid cloud. They don't. I also don't see any reason why Plymouth couldn't just build a line of EMP/ESG GPs. I've tried GPs, they're pointless. Just get tigers.
Perhaps I was a bit confusing earlier. It's is not because of Acid cloud in itself - that is just my preferred turret type.
GP's work for Eden because Plymouth are not effective in killing GP's as Eden are. Thor's will easily ravage walls and Plymouth GP's, making a Plymouth GP line of defense very weak against quick hit and runs - thus you must tie up more tigers in the defense of your base. Or you can use Acid's to destroy GP's (and leave wall intact for later breach) - GP's take time to replace.
Plymouth on the other hand cannot get close enough to GP's without taking damage to the units. If you have some extra units beside the GP's, Plymouth cannot even touch the walls without suffering damage.
The point of GP's is to slow down armies, stop minor attacks and most importantly free up Tigers for offense instead of having them as defense. If you cannot see the value of having more firepower in your army than your opponent - well, then I guess there is no point continuing this discussion about GP's.


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Edit: As another test, I pitted a fully upgraded rail gun tiger against an unupgraded RPG tiger. Guess what? The RPG tiger came out the victor. Now imagine how big the gap between the two is when the RPG gets upgraded. On top of that, an unupgraded RPG lynx vs. a rail gun lynx with a fully upgraded turret will end in a draw, or the RPG lynx just barely managing to win (depends on if the turret happens to be facing the rail gun lynx when the fight starts); though the RPG would win after getting some upgrades as you might imagine.
As I originally were saying: Rail and RPG is just about an even match in strength or more or less equal.
It seems like I must modify this to: RPG is slightly stronger than Rail.
Setting fully upgrades weapons against each other 10 times each, here is the results:
Tiger: Mutual destruction: (3/10), RPG Wins: (7:10), with the average RPG tiger surviving with 66 HP
Lynx: Railgun wins: (3/10), Mutual Destruction: (2/10), RPG wins (5/10), with the average RPG lynx surviving with 37 HP.
Damage seems to variate due to where the projectiles hit.
More research will of course be needed if you want more detailed numbers, yet it seems that statements such as "Rail Gun is extremely inferior to RPG" would be stretching the truth quite a bit ?
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Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2010, 07:07:18 AM »
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It seems that statements such as "Rail Gun is extremely inferior to RPG" would be stretching the truth quite a bit ?
No.  A 30% win rate against a weapon it's supposed to be more or less identical to is unacceptable.
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2010, 08:07:22 AM »
the only answer would be to make the rail gun cheaper then the rpg.  thus making it able to stay on par with the rpg.  

Now i have read alot of these threads before eden and plymouth blah blah blah.  Guess what you all say the same thing eden end game and plymouth early game.

That would be the major problem here. People will pick plymouth because of its early game advantage the mic lynx and the sticky (baby emp) if you get those and rush them in against eden which could have laser and maybe emp by then isnt going to make it because it wont have the same production because of the time researching so you might be stuck with producing lasers there for your going to loose still becuase the stickies.  acid can damage buildings well so can sticky foam sticky foams have been used for a long time to take out the gp in pie chart using its multi tile attack. so another ply unit invalidates the argument of the eden unit.  the one advantage.  EMP missiles are fine if some one isnt going to try to chain fire them and keep the enemy units down.  but thats going to happen any way becuase no one can resist a good dick waving.

Under optimal conditions such as la co or pie where the rare is in the base eden is still going to loose because it requires alot of expanion to deal with the need for rare ore use where as ply isnt to concerned.

And oh yes i made the suggestion about rare ore on maps.  Now you might be thinking well just put on rare in the middle and thats that.  No my thinking is make the rare a bit more exposed rather then hiding it in the base make things a bit more challenging. rather then oh look my ore is here lets build here for quicker games so i can watch more porn faster.  quality of games is what i am after rather then speed of how many you can play before the next hard on.


But all of this has been said before i believe to balance out the factions is to lower the cost on eden with exception of thors hammer because it is a nice weapon befitting its costs and emp becuase both sides have it at the same costs and rates of fire.

Offline jcj94

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« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2011, 08:12:54 PM »
If you have ESG tigers, set a line outside your base, and set them to constant attack stratigic points, making a wall of mines.  This way,  you don't need as many GP's, the downside, You might have to keep those reinforced.  The upside, Eden units have to send Units STRAIGHT through to get to your base, if setup right.  And if you do this in a thick enough layer (remember, mines don't hurt friendlies) you might be able to kill a bunch of thor tigers when they come charging at you, with minimal losses (relative to plymouth's armor strength)

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2011, 09:34:47 AM »
I just wanted to take a minute to say THANK YOU, jcj.  I thought this discussion had finished about 6~7 months ago, but you've really revitalized the conversation with that extremely relevant and insightful contribution!  And such an interesting and useful tidbit!  Kiting with ESGs?!  What an innovative, game-changing strategy!!  Truly, you are a tactical genius.  The greatest mind of your generation.

This may be my finest work.  Go ahead and delete it, I dare you.
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Offline evecolonycamander

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« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2011, 10:59:44 AM »
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I just wanted to take a minute to say THANK YOU, jcj.  I thought this discussion had finished about 6~7 months ago, but you've really revitalized the conversation with that extremely relevant and insightful contribution!  And such an interesting and useful tidbit!  Kiting with ESGs?!  What an innovative, game-changing strategy!!  Truly, you are a tactical genius.  The greatest mind of your generation.

This may be my finest work.  Go ahead and delete it, I dare you.
lmao, damn sirbomber you lovable troll. without you this forum would be dull and uninviting :D
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Offline Lord Of Pain

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« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2011, 12:22:31 PM »
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I just wanted to take a minute to say THANK YOU, jcj.  I thought this discussion had finished about 6~7 months ago, but you've really revitalized the conversation with that extremely relevant and insightful contribution!  And such an interesting and useful tidbit!  Kiting with ESGs?!  What an innovative, game-changing strategy!!  Truly, you are a tactical genius.  The greatest mind of your generation.

This may be my finest work.  Go ahead and delete it, I dare you.
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Wow, sir, i never realized you had such a kind heart for newbies. You must be VERY generous and caring when you give lectures. If i diden't know any better, i'd say your among the kindest people opu has ever seen. Wow maybe even pure at heart?

Let's end this trash-talk and lock it. This thread is obviously being necroed.  (thumbsdown)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 12:22:49 PM by Lord Of Pain »

Offline evecolonycamander

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« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2011, 12:53:28 PM »
It's a bit off topic but i have to say that if the staff REALLY didn't want us to post here the could have locked the topic after about a month. just my opinion though.
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2011, 05:26:15 PM »
Locking this thread.

You have been repeatedly warned to stop necroing (posting in old threads). As to the comment about locking old threads, it's probably that no one can be bothered to. It's a pretty common rule in most internet forums to not post in topics that are very old (some places will even ban you for doing it multiple times).

That said, for the others in the thread, flaming him was not really necessary either.