What about air units?

[White Claw]

Hear hear. I concur... Details of a planet would be important to the development of several ideas...

If you limit the range (and not so much else) you create a unit that would provide good base defense but limited offensive strike capability. (The enemy would be less likely to camp outside of your base.)

[Freeza-CII]

I found this little tid bit in the archive

Um... that's incorrect. The planet that OP3 takes place in is Venus-like in nature (NOT VENUS ALIKE! IT'S DIFFERENT). The atmosphere is EXTREMELY thick and volatile and the normal tempuratures on the planet are circa 280 - 350 degrees Faranheight. It's very far from cold. Just a note.

http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.ph...opic=2067&st=96

[dm-horus]

Ok I still dont see how that would prevent the use of vehicles. Plus, Im not even talking about Genesis. Im just saying, its possible to have air units if theyre done right. Im not saying we NEED air units.

[Skydock Command]

I agree. The air units would is a good idea, but the restictions are a little strict, but its all good in the end.

[Freeza-CII]

Air unit are pointless Why because IF your just going to limit there range and have them only as a scout then what point is there to having a flying scout that cant go very far.  when you can just build a f***ing scout that can dirve as far as you want.  If your talking about a picket line land scouts can also perform this job.  Also having air units give them that factor that what if there are flying to high to be shot down or too fast to be shot down.  Do they become a immortal unit?  flying units do not fit in with the rest of the tech and units that are there.  You may argue that Well they have rockets.  Well a rocket is alot bigger and a lot more powerful and use a fuel that wouldnt work on a small craft like a drone.

[Skydock Command]

I know it doesnt fit, but they can and do make great advancements. Space travel was unlike them, but they were forced into developing it. They latter used it, and possably will again on the new world.

[White Claw]

Well, I think this is also going to boil down to what are we designing against? I don't know / can't tell if we're talking about a sequel to OP2, or a remake. If we want to get down to it, there's no reason to have a tech tree at all if we're talking about a sequel. They've already researched all the items they need. (Unless we're including new items.)

[Freeza-CII]

These threads have been nothing but new things that could possibly be added to the already exsisting tech tree.  Making a whole new tree would not make it a op2 sequel and incredibly hard.

[Skydock Command]

Hey frezza: (Attempt at makeing it sound like there explaning it)

The air units would be a branch of the old tech tree. It wouldnt be a weapon at first, just a arial survayor,scout, something. But then the war happened and the air units were redesigned to be weapons platforms, so now we have arial scout things, and arial weapons. But we've always had a problem with the weapon version of the craft, one that prevents it form flying out of range of all weapons exept starflare and supernova. We can outrun most vehicals though, making it cappable with running from a fight for repairs. These are expensvive for a unit, 1800 common, 600 rare, so reapairing them will save time in a major battle.

Operational Notes: The air units are only avalible to Eden. The air weapons can be fitted with any weapon, although it can only carry a lynx style turret.
Note: Air units can only be built at the hoverport, and can only dock at the hover port for repairs. The hoverport can hold 6 craft at a time.

[Freeza-CII]

So A tech that is just suddenly there and not any part of the few chains of tech.   Just Boom its there.  Tigers arent Boom there you have to do a chain.  I dong think any of the research would lead up to Air units.  

Again air units are crap.

1.  they will just be spammed because o the speed and swarms will be impossible to stop.

2.  Having them as Eden only is a BIG BIG problem.  A swarm of flying thors hammers = God like power that cant be stopped even by a emp missile.

3.  People have suggested that they dont have the ablity to fly very far this makes those units totally useless and a waste of ore to build.

4.  We already have Scouts why do we need a flying version of it.

5.  1800 and 600 common/rare that is like the cost of a Rail Panther, and those can still be spammed.  Tigers that cost more then that can be spammed.  Having them uber expensive is pointless to the unit that is weak super fast and can carry weapons.

6.  Finaly some one thought of where they are going to land.  Or just have them VTOL (Vertical Take Off and Landing).

[lordly_dragon]

Air unit will have a HELL of a ride on Cythera. Why? Wind...simply. As you know on Venus there is A LOT of wind and wind tend to '''help'' aircraft touch the ground very hard.

I still do not think this is a good idea

[Skydock Command]

Your right. I wasnt considering the enviroment. No air units, it cant work.

[Sirbomber]

Glue a big metal stick to a plane and have it fly into the windows.

If we had aircraft, which we probably won't (I don't really care one way or the other), they'd probably only have lasers/mics, or maybe its own energy weapon (like the Scrop has).

But, the incredible winds would actually be the reason they have to re-research planes (because they need to be able to fly in the wind.)

But, in the end, why bother when a Lynx can do it so well?

[White Claw]

2. Having them as Eden only is a BIG BIG problem. A swarm of flying thors hammers = God like power that cant be stopped even by a emp missile.

I definitely agree with this...

5. 1800 and 600 common/rare that is like the cost of a Rail Panther, and those can still be spammed. Tigers that cost more then that can be spammed. Having them uber expensive is pointless to the unit that is weak super fast and can carry weapons.

If every unit can be spammed, then why are we arguing about spamming any units at all?

You could cripple the air unit by limiting how much it can shoot on a single sortie. Rather than a range or speed limit. Then it is useful for what aircraft are ment for. Deep strike and run, cavalry, or harrassment.

6. Finaly some one thought of where they are going to land. Or just have them VTOL (Vertical Take Off and Landing).

Yes, I brought this up before. I think someone mentioned earlier about having them dock at a hover port. Then you could only support air units commensurate with the number of hover ports you built. (also reducing spam)

Air unit will have a HELL of a ride on Cythera. Why? Wind...simply. As you know on Venus there is A LOT of wind and wind tend to '''help'' aircraft touch the ground very hard.

This is more of an argument against aircraft than anything else. It gives a reason why it wouldn't work! (Rather than "they can't") New terra couldn't support winged craft either.

Skydock - don't be so easily swayed man...

And lastly: Can someone explain to me why a ground unit can't fire at an air unit? Why could you not hit an air unit with a laser/mic, thor, or even EMP or RPG? Laser and thor don't require sophisticated targeting (they're instantaneous). And computation of lead for an EMP/RPG should be an issue for advanced computers...

Anyway... Sorry for the long post.

(A flying stick: You could call it a BAT-ering ram...)

[Freeza-CII]

And lastly: Can someone explain to me why a ground unit can't fire at an air unit? Why could you not hit an air unit with a laser/mic, thor, or even EMP or RPG? Laser and thor don't require sophisticated targeting (they're instantaneous). And computation of lead for an EMP/RPG should be an issue for advanced computers...

Because It makes more sence for a Air Unit which by there nature are light and light armored to Avoid fire.  The easiest way to do this is by flying Higher.  For the Game they would have to fly with in range of there own weapons be it thors hammer emp ect.

Which makes me say that the Laser/Microwave will not work for they dont have a great range.

You could cripple the air unit by limiting how much it can shoot on a single sortie. Rather than a range or speed limit. Then it is useful for what aircraft are ment for. Deep strike and run, cavalry, or harrassment.

Because limiting there range of shots just doesnt make sence because the other units do not have to deal with reload or recharge.  Given that these air craft would most likely have reactors in them.

Another problem is Plymouth's ESG will not work on air units.  Talking from Surface to Air.  A ESG lynx would not beable to take down a air unit Mines simply dont work mid air.  Sticky on the other hand would be devestating to any air unit.  Starflare/Super Nova not a change to hit a air unit.

Some one said that Flare/Nova couldnt be used on Air units.  Thats not true.  You pack a air unit with explosives and ram it into a building its quite effective.

I think with all the limitation that would have to be put on the air units themself to make the game fair.  Also makes them pointless to use.  Even if its just limiting the number of shots.  Why send in a unit that will have to retreat when you can send in a unit that can stay around.

[Skydock Command]

Because it has good speed Freeza. Fast = Reatreat =Saves time and cost

Well, maby not.

[Chandler]

Has anyone even read my posts ?

Chandler Posted: Oct 25 2006, 08:17 PM
Good point White Claw. This is a battle for survival, and the fights between the colonies is only them trying to survive by stealing/setting back their opponent.

A couple of ideas of mine for non-offensive air units:
* Airbourne Surveyor: next step up from a robosurveyor, but a step down from EDWARD?
* Airbourne Scout: easier to scout due to terrain indifference.

That would probably be about it. Convecs and Cargo Trucks are unrealistic due to weight, and dozers and earthworkers would be useless airbourne.

Chandler Posted: Oct 26 2006, 08:33 PM   
One point... EMP doesn't work on Spiders/Scorps - why not make it so it doesn't work on aircraft (MAYBE, IF they are included) too.

An airborne scout is quite a good idea, as I pointed out. It would be able to go across any terrain, whereas a scout would have to go around.
Example - Total Annihilation - it has Aircraft scouts, but at the same time has KBot, Vehicle and Ship scouts (radar vechs.) - why? Because aircraft can go anywhere. Why bother having the others? Aircraft are weaker, due to having more limits (More Armour = More Weight = Need More Power = More Weight etc) due to the fact that they need to counteract gravity, whereas vechs and ships have land or water to do that for them.

The same can be said about an airborne surveyor - movement advantages, and nothing stops it from using the same system as EDWARD, just a lot shorter range. Why use it? Cheaper. get it sooner than EDWARD, and can survey more beacons than a robosurveyor in the same amount of time due to its movement advantages.

If you wish to expand on this, perhaps have an airborne sureyor only able to find the beacons (if they are kept invisble until they're found - this was covered in another thread), and then have a robosurveyor survey it.

[White Claw]

Why send in a unit that will have to retreat when you can send in a unit that can stay around.

Because it's the speed and harrassment factor. You can thin out incoming forces without a full scale assult. You can hit a back door to the enemy base without a full scale assult that would be seen coming. You can use it as a diversionary tactic.

Anyhow, I don't think we're going to find an agreement on this any time soon. I don't think I can say anything to convince you (Freeza) of trying air units out. I'm not totally for them (i.e. They HAVE to be included), but I think they could at least be tried out.

There's no reason they have to be limited at all, assuming you treat them like other units. Now you have a flying lynx with the speed of a scout but able to cross all terrain. Sure ESG can't hit it, but then don't leave your ESG by themselves.

Has anyone even read my posts ?

Yes, I have. But the discussion has come full circle back to armed flying units.

I still think that we may have a problem with flying units (scouts or not) due to the environmentals. The wind speed would be a serious issue... Then again, 100-200MPH winds would be a problem for ground vechs too.

[lordly_dragon]

Your right. I wasnt considering the enviroment. No air units, it cant work.

white claw is right...they can...But considering the nature of the wind on Venus-like planet...they are a real pain to fly.

Wind on Earth are not strong compared to Venus. Furthermore, Venus wind are more ..umpredictable and they do strike randomly more often. Here you can have a wind strike from nowhere but, the wind is fairly constant for is direction.

In those condition the only way to be sure that you don't crash is having the less wingspan you can possibly have...in order to do that you need a fast engine so you can fly with a limited wingspan. If we are considering Hovering, then scrap standard helicopter they will be throw down in a mather of second. Hovering with special engine COULD work as long as you are very aerodynamic from every side of your ship (so you don't catch in the wind that blow from everywhere). the problem is ....Hovering is not really fast. So do you really want a panther speed air unit?

I know a lot of thing about plane and how to fly. The only possible way to fly and be the least affected by air condition is simply not using air as a way to float. Example: snow speeder in star-wars used gravity drive. THey CAN't fly where there is 0 gravity.  

[Freeza-CII]

Gravity Drives seem a bit out there considering the rest of there tech.

[Chandler]

With 100-200mph winds, you won't need an engine... lol
FYI: Snowspeeders used Repulsor-lift drives (you got the idea right though, they lift them by repulsing gravity)

I agree with white claw - just give them a go. Many an RTS include aircraft, but they aren't unbalanced. Generals: seems unbalanced with the whole counter-measures, until you build some Gatling Guns or Laser Defs. And auroras? They die almost as soon as they drop their load, and if you've let someone build about 50 of them, its your own fault.

[lordly_dragon]

are you sugesting doing plannor? I am not against air unit but, you can't deny that the will be more easy to break in pieces. Furthermore I don't think those kind of wind actually help plane at all unless they are aerodynamics from every side possible... if not they can be trown in many different direction including DOWN.

Convince me of this particular fact will be hard but, try your luck  

BUT I am not against plane I just need to figure out why they should be in. Do not forget that the idea of op is survival not perpetual war.  

[White Claw]

I'll be clear about the fact that I don't think an air unit would work in 100-200MPH winds either. So if that's the fact in-game, I wouldn't support the idea of air units. But I'm not against air units under the basis of game play, balance issues, or because of "technology" issues.

[Freeza-CII]

At the Speeds of 100 MPH most convential aircraft can lift off.  But How ever with a planet that is so Hot There would be terrible turbulence.  Massive Updrafts and Massive down drafts.  Flying the craft would be extreemly difficult for even a AI.  Not the mention the Acidity would increase the higher you got.  The Environment of this planet wouldnt work for Air units  They would be more possible on New Terra because its atmosphere is  not hostile to units and buildings.

[lordly_dragon]

Yes this is correct. Adding the wind in the current ''natural'' cons would clearly shut down this idea. I liked tho everything that is plane related =(