Author Topic: Area Specific Damage And Vec Recycling  (Read 6065 times)

Offline Betaray

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Area Specific Damage And Vec Recycling
« on: September 21, 2006, 03:17:04 PM »
Units will have many types of components both internal and external

external would be hull, wheels, sensors, and weapon

internal would be power source (cool fusion reactor) computer, and drive train

each component would have its own number of hit points, and the external components would also have their own amount of armor (sensors have the least, hull has the most)

concussion damage would do more damage to the external components while penetration damage would do the most to the internal components

each component would have a percentage of area from the total vec which would determine the chance of it getting hit from a specific area (ie wheels would have a high chance to get hit if being shot from the side, but a low chance if its getting shot from the front or back)

if the hull gets damaged it provides less protection to the internal components, and if it gets destroyed so does the vec, also that would provide the least amount of salvageable ore (more on that later)

wheels of course would slow the vec down by lessening its traction with the ground, so the max speed might not be affected much, but its rate of acceleration and deceleration and turning radius would be affected.

sensor with dmg would decrease the viewing range of the vec, lesson its wep accuracy and impair its plotting ability (getting from point A to point B )

weapon if damaged would decrease in rate of fire, and damage

for the power source it would be the smallest and most concealed internal component (and thus would be the least likely to get hit, except by a lucky penetration shot) if it becomes damaged the power for the entire vec goes down, degrading the performance of almost all the other components, the vec would move slower, the sensors would degrade, the wep would be degraded)

the computer, if it is damaged it would effect the plotting of the vec and also the accuracy of the wep, also this component would be damaged by emp, so not only will emp temporally disable the vec it will take hp from the computer.  it would take many shots from an emp to destroy it. A vec disabled by just a broken computer would have the highest salvageable ore.

The drive train is the biggest and most likely to get hit internal component, if it is hit the vecs max speed is decreased

all the damage effects are linear, thus there would be little or no effect on a lightly damaged component but performance would decline with more damage

if the hull is destroyed, the vec is considered destroyed, and only a small amount of wreckage is salvageable

if the vecs computer or power source was destroyed, the vec becomes disabled and can be taken by any player to a gorf for recycling or garage for repair

a vec with just destroyed wheels or drive train will no longer be able to move, but if it has a weapon it will be able to fire at enemy units (you may want to allow it to always have a minimum amount of movement)

if the sensors are destroyed the wep on the vec is useless (but the sensors are a small component of the vec, and thus the wep would most likely be incapacitated by some other means) and the visible area around the vec is reduced to zero, basically it wanders around blindly

and of course if the weapon is destroyed it cant be fired

some weapons like acid cloud would mostly do damage to the hull, and thus would leave poor salvage, but units destroyed or disabled on the battlefield would be salvageable with the salvaged ore being proportional to the amount of damage done to the different components (thus a damaged computer wouldn't penalize the ore return much, but a weapon damaged the same amount would reduce ore return by a greater amount)

I could see a big battle taking place, and than afterwords both sides send out cargo trucks with light units to get salvage, so there would be skirmishes for the carrion of other battles lol


tell me what you think, its just a concept, not set in stone
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 03:17:57 PM by Betaray »
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2006, 03:22:04 PM »
Would the hit points of all the componets = the over all hit points of the vec?

Offline Betaray

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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2006, 03:27:16 PM »
I guess for a glance bar over the vec on screen it could show the weighted average of the amount of hit points of the components, and than over in the command pane (or whatever its equivalent in op3 is) would show the hit points of each component

by weighted average I mean that some components will mean more to the average than others, such as if the hull is in the red, but the wheels are in the green, the overall hp of the vec would be in the low yellow or high red, but if the hull is in the green but the wheels are in the red the average would only be in the mid to high yellow
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Offline Skydock Command

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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2006, 03:41:43 PM »
GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!! (thumbsup)  :D  (thumbsup)  
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Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2006, 04:04:25 PM »
This would be a good idea, if you were actually piloting the individual vehicles.

I remember playing TIE Fighter 95 and being able to target enemy hull/shields/weapons/etc. Which was neat, if not mostly useless (just blow it the crap up!). But I only had to worry about the one ship I was flying, and it was pretty much ship vs ship combat, maybe a few AI allies/enemies joining you occasionally but usually fighting each other. In OP2/3 you control an entire army. It's a bit harder to aim in that case...
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Offline Betaray

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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2006, 04:44:08 PM »
it wouldnt be aiming, its more like random chances to hit different parts of the vec
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2006, 05:03:37 PM »
Yeah, I'm reminded of Freespace1/2 which allows you to attack different parts of a ship (sensors, weapons, engines, etc).

I can't remember if each part had its own hitpoints, it did have some sort of percentage though.

In OP3 you could implement 'targeting' for a specific component by some sort of drop down in the unit display.

Picking up pieces of the unit might prove to be a bit tough though, and the whole idea might overcomplicate a battle. (Unless you limit it to a couple major parts. Maybe if you went with 3 parts: drive train, hull, weapon) If there are 15 parts or something like that it would be too complex.

Maybe just something where 'special targets' have it (ex. a mission where you have to steal a prototype weapon off of a unit, so the weapon counts as a separate 'module')

Offline Betaray

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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2006, 05:45:07 PM »
well basically my thoughts were that when a unit is destroyed they either leave a hunk of hull that can be picked up on a cargo truck and recycled, debris (from a flair explosion for example) or a disabled vec that could be field repaired or recycled

if it is recycled the amount of ore you get would be based on how damaged the unit was when it became disabled, so it would basically be just like picking up rubble off a battle field, except it would be unit hulls, and there would be a chance (if it became disabled by the reactor or the computer) to field repair it and take it to your side (although it would still be severely damaged)
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Offline Skydock Command

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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2006, 06:17:08 PM »
Quote
Yeah, I'm reminded of Freespace1/2 which allows you to attack different parts of a ship (sensors, weapons, engines, etc).

I can't remember if each part had its own hitpoints, it did have some sort of percentage though.

 
Each part had a prectntage (%) but only the ship had hitpoints. The compontents autorepiared but the hitpoints of the ship need a repiar craft to fix it.
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2006, 06:57:30 PM »
Calulations might be the only thing that worry me with so many vecs attacking it might weigh down the game.
 

Offline Chandler

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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2006, 09:36:50 PM »
Quote
This would be a good idea, if you were actually piloting the individual vehicles.
...

In OP2/3 you control an entire army. It's a bit harder to aim in that case...
Homeworld 2 has a system very similar to this. It was also quite simple.

You had the different extra components that you could build on your capital or higher class ships, which could also be destroyed by enemy ships. You could also take out their engines temporarily, and on the super-capital class ships you could take out some of their primary weapons.

This was quite useful as you could take out their hyperspace modules to prevent them from jumping away, take out their main weapons to prevent them from killing you and then take out their engines whilst you wait for a capture craft to come and take it over.

Obviously the default systems (not the addons you build on them) will repair themselves over time.
Chandler

Offline dm-horus

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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2006, 01:23:44 AM »
This is similar to hp in Earth 2160. I really like the idea of localized unit damage. However it should be limited solely to the variable aspects of units, namely the weapons and chassis.

Offline Skydock Command

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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2006, 02:37:32 PM »
Quote
-gasp- I know where you got this from  :whistle: Hehe, that's okay though.

If you just make a simple sideview bitmap (with a black back) that hilights the different components in green (probably 4-5 max) and when one component gets damaged start turning that section of the image slowly to red. This would also add the dynamic to the game that if your drivetrain (wheels/treads too) get destroyed, your units are immobile, but still able to attack. I like this one.
Good idea. But the area should obly be shown when the unit is slected. (note: Must be able to select enemy units and vheicals, but since enemy, should not be able to move them and should have a diferent looking interface.)
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Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2006, 03:17:24 PM »
Hmm i think we are forgetting how the damage is displayed for RTS

First of your going to be comanding Multipul units in a 3rd person over head or Floating mode where you fly around spectator like.  Note that most RTS deal with damage either as one bar of HP.  It would be easy to stick with 1 bar of HP not any of this Drive train Frame head legs fingers damage.  

Salvage is a great idea and each dead vec should give you a percentage of salvaging the vec.  a percentage based on what kind of vec it was.  the higher percents would be laser Mic Sticky  Medium percents would be RPG Rail  Low percents would be Acid ESG Thors  Zero percents are Flare and Nova because they are Explosive units that would be next to nothing afterwards.

short All this complicated damage is a good idea but its not really RTS with the style of op2/3.  All the multipul areas of damage is more suited for Sim and FPS.

Offline TH300

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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2006, 03:22:40 PM »
Funny how this isn't too much realism for some of you.

I like Betaray's original idea. But targetting special components, I don't see how that would work well in mass battles.

And I don't know how much that will add in terms of cpu usage. Not only will we have to calculate the damage for every component. The AI will also have to be more advanced.

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2006, 03:48:17 PM »
so by a coding stand point its better to keep it simple?

Offline gpgarrettboast

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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2006, 09:29:04 PM »
-gasp- I know where you got this from  :whistle: Hehe, that's okay though.

If you just make a simple sideview bitmap (with a black back) that hilights the different components in green (probably 4-5 max) and when one component gets damaged start turning that section of the image slowly to red. This would also add the dynamic to the game that if your drivetrain (wheels/treads too) get destroyed, your units are immobile, but still able to attack. I like this one.

Also, the area that gets attacked is determined by the type of weapon. Acid would obviously degrade the metal of the hull. Sticky would affect the drive train (with the small amount of damage it does) Weapons that can pierce damage internal components whereas things like EMP will damage the electrical systems (but not actually reduce the HP) causing the computer to not always take the best route or have slow response time. This could be stored as a single byte value if you really wanted (the number only has to be from 0 to 100) and for 5 sub systems, thats only 5 bytes of data.  It's not some big mathmatical equation.

[Example] (hehe, really easy values to make the calculations easy)
StickyFoam Damage = 10
Lynx HP = 100

Hull = 100%
Electrical = 100%
Drive Train = 100%
Computer = 100%
Weapon = 100%

You can store the damage ratios in an array, respective to the above.
Sticky Damage Ratio = { 0.40, 0.0, 0.30, 0.0, 0.20 };

Depending on the distance from the target, the damage gets computed.  (use a min-max scale, and take that multiplied by the damage to get the total damage)

A direct hit will yield the full 10 HP of damage, which is 10% of the lynx's maximum HP. That will be deducted. As for the subsystems damage, it is computed like this

f(hull%) = Hull% - (10% * Ratio)  so,
Hull% = 100% - (0.10 * 0.40) which would make
Hull% = .96 (96%)

If the lynx got completely destroyed by a stickyfoam (lol) it would've recieved 10 hits each at 4%.  This would result in 60% of the hull remaining (hm, that seems a bit high so you'll surely have to mod this) you can then use these values to make a % of salvageable material. (Average them and take 1/4?)  Then by doing that and multiplying it by the original value of the vec, you'll get the salvaged material value.  

Or something along those lines. You might have to scale things, but it seems like it would be a decent system... -steals idea for my game-
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 12:49:30 AM by gpgarrettboast »

Offline Skydock Command

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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2006, 08:22:04 AM »
Good idea. We should use it. :)  
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Offline White Claw

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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2006, 07:50:43 PM »
I don't see how having area specific damage adds much. If you're using the salvage argument, there's (at least) two types of salvage to consider. Scrap salvage - I get some percentage of ore from the hulk; and parts salvage - I get a turret or chassis (or whatever).

Scrap salvage wouldn't need area specific damage as it wouldn't matter what was left anyhow.

Part salvage could go either way. But without area specific damage, you greatly reduce coding (AI, damage, and vehicle structs). This could easily be simulated by randomly chosing a part to be left behind after death. (30% chance of turret, 70% chance of chassis...)

And if you want to make the "but I want to target the chassis" argument, you could still use a simplified model to increase the odds of getting the turret. (Now 50% chance of turret, 50% chance of chassis).

Other than chassis and turret (the only choices in the game) "electronics", "systems" and "computer" don't buy you much as parts since they aren't really used in the game. There's no Panter computer or Thor's hammer electronics. It's just a panther chassis and thor's hammer turret. (Unless you want to add a percent chance to acquire battlefield technology...)

Offline Chandler

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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2006, 09:18:06 PM »
Perhaps a system similar to Company of Heroes?
In it, you can damage a vechs Engine, causing it to be unmovable. You can also cause it to go Out of Control (kill driver, so in OP maybe fry/destroy CPU?).
You also do more damage to tanks if you hit their back, as they have less armour there.

Just my thoughts.
Chandler

Offline Freeza-CII

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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2006, 12:11:24 AM »
I am begining to think we just keep the damage like it is.

Why because its simple.  you dont have to go looking all over for the lost lynx and such.  Just temp disable with the EMP and total kill after the hit points are gone.  not any of this internal and wheel and spinner damage it would be ok if this was Driving the lynx over the road game but its not.

Offline White Claw

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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2006, 10:48:55 AM »
I tend to lean more toward Freeza. Simple damage potential for a medium/large scale assult game is less frustrating and confusing. You can already capture weapons (EMP/spider). Especially if the point is to focus on the colony aspects.

A way to get a bit of both sides: Perhaps a destroyed vech could simply leave some rubble behind. If you wanted, you could go out and salvage for some ore. This would probably be mostly useful for campaign when resources are limited and most fighting happens near your base.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 10:50:26 AM by White Claw »

Offline Skydock Command

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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2006, 04:41:03 AM »
Why dont we have a chance to reverse engineer the technology we capture?
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