Custom Unit Construction

[CK9]

okay, you two, knock it off or bring it to the debate forum.  You guys are arguing back and forth ove minor details

[croxis]

Play balance.  Thats all I have to say about it.

Speasking of that where could I find the op2 tech tree?

nm, found it.

[omagaalpha]

Man that was lot reading, my though of undstand what read Freeza-CII that he point about it have been solve. If implement it would balance out easly.


P.s. state my opion on overall arguinments

[dm-horus]

OK ive held off long enough and its time to chime in.

Freeza is sick of all the BS ideas flying around trying to turn OP2/3 into a game of chess. Dont discuss it, dont DENY it because even if you dont know what youre doing (likely) the inevitable conclusion to all the changes you want to make to OP2/3 will make it a game of CHESS that turns into a game of CHECKERS: every unit starts out so specialized that they are more or less useless until you see what types of units your enemy is building and can then build counters to them; at which point they would already be bearing down on your colony. then because of all the f***ingbulls***p*niss***f***tardassrapegoatsexf***s*** upgrades, any and every unit can be upgraded until they are ALL EXACTLY THE SAME, WEILDING THE SAME f***ING DOOMSDAY WEAPON JUST WITH DIFFERENT NAMES.

It would be different if the ideas didnt amount to:

Invent new weapon based on an episode of _________ and slap it on a lynx

-or-

Make a chassis larger than the largest chassis available

-or-

Turn OP2/3 into (insert other RTS franchise here) by adding ________ feature

-or-

Add so many upgrades and addons that in the end, the winner is determined by who can click "Research" the fastest

If all the research suggested was put in the game, it would take 12 hours to reach 100% researched topics. Thats insane. Trying to make it so that anyone can break a stalemate or bad situation by researching some doomsday weapons is utter nonsense. Making it so that no player could ever get the upper hand on another player makes the game annoying, pointless and stupid. The fun of op2 is that when you start the game, everybody knows what theyre shooting for: "Go straight for Tigers" or "go straight for Thors" or "Go for the most ore" or "Go for EMP missiles". These bad ideas make the research tree so confusing that nobody would be able to figure out the research path to the topic they want.

Did anybody ever consider that?!?!!? The research tree is small enough that you can remember what topics you need to research to get to Thors for example. If youve got three dozen topics, how the f*** could you remember what you need?! Not to mention the fact that anyone who managed to reach 100% researched topics would find that ALL TOPICS CANCEL OUT ALL OTHER TOPICS. All your research topics, counter topics, upgrades and addons would do just that. So then the player sees "Well what was the point in all that if in the end, every weapon and unit becomes nerf compared to everything else?"

Thats what REAL BALANCE IS!!!! If Eden and Plym both had weapons that had the same destructive capability as the Thor, they are NOT BALANCED because every weakness would be plugged with a counter topic/weapon/research/addon. You have to have variety. You have to give one side weapons the other side doesnt.

The more I read the changes people want, the more it becomes clear that the ppl who are coming up with these ideas are people who are losing to Eden Thors Hammers. Theyre sore losers who cant take the fact that Plymouth cant beat Eden with equal numbers of their most powerful tigers. Well guess what? If you play Plym, you can kick Eden's ass BUT IT TAKES THOUGHT AND EFFORT. A mixed army of tigers with emp's, rpgs and esg's along with EMP missiles will OMGWTFPWN eden. Just because you cant recycle the same formula from Eden to Plym doesnt mean Eden has an unfair advantage.

In short, yur noob. Learn to play that game. You cant win and you cant take it on the chin. I fully admit that I cant win playing as Eden OR Plym but if I lose I dont throw a fit and flood the forums with bad ideas, and thats EXACTLY what these are.

In case youve read this and are getting pissed off, read again from the beginning and take a look at some of the points I made. Aside from my irritation and admittedly foul language, my main points make it more than obvious that the ideas some people are fighting tooth and nail to have put into OP2/3 are idiotic and outright absurd.

[Stormy]

Ok first of all, SOME Of these ideas are fine. I would like it if you come to one of the senior members before posting such a post.

I feel that some of you think Op3 is OP2 in 3D. It isn't. It WILL have new units, it WILL have new tech trees, there will be certain changed or improved aspects of gameplay. That is why we put this forum up. Not for flaming and ridiculeing ideas. You can suggest alternatives, but you shouldn't flat out flame the person for SUGGESTING something and TRYING to help out. We need ALL the help we can get, and  posting things like the above will only hurt us. I must ask you to stop.

The New units will GO WITH the storyline, not to make a counter-attack against the thors hammer or something stupid. We will be posting a large outline soon.

Horus, calm yourself down please, and change your post so it isn't as offencive. I've had people come to me saying that they don't want to help in the ideas forum because of this.

I want to make this clear,

WITHOUT THE IDEAS, IT WOULDN"T BE AS GOOD OF A GAME!!!

You are free to say your peace about ideas, but you don't have a right to go flaming the individuals for posting ideas. They have feelings also.

In short, yur noob. Learn to play that game. You cant win and you cant take it on the chin. I fully admit that I cant win playing as Eden OR Plym but if I lose I dont throw a fit and flood the forums with bad ideas, and thats EXACTLY what these are.

]
We are not noobs. At all. We are a community working on a project, and regardless of what you think, we are not noobs. We help each other grow and learn. Now horus, If you need to stop holding back, why not send it to me in a PM? I'd be glad to discuss things with you. Posting it on a public forum is very noobish as i see it, trying to make a point through flaming.

You're thinking that ALL these ideas would be included. In fact, that's not true at all sadly. We have no intention on making the tech tree so complex it takes forever to play. Only to the point that it can complete the story.

The wild ideas, those won't be included. People post their thoughts and whatnot, and the community gives feedback on those ideas.

Your post is unnecessary because we have a system in place that will keep the ideas that will make it idiotic out. You seem to think of a lot of us as people who can't see the air in front of them. You're wrong about a lot of us.

Ideas that are taken from other games, we won't be using those. We don't like to copy ideas, and most of the community has been against that.

We don't want a starcraft/warcraft clone.

There will be a mix of OP1 type gameplay where you research, and Op2 battle gameplay, where you fight to survive. It is going to be more like OP2 than it will be like OP1 in the fact that research and fighting is linked.

We will find a balance for the tech trees, and have them to where you have more of a  tree that goes with the storyline (as I have said above).

To Horus:

You do have good points, but I think you forgot that the community as a whole will decide whether or not to include an idea. Maybe through representation, because individually people would vote for their own ideas (no offence) because, when we come up with an idea, we think it's the best in the world, which isnt' necessarilly true.

We could have a group of people who play games (and can learn OP1/2, or have previous experience) and whatnot come from outside the community and pick the best ideas. Before that would happen though, OPU would pick the top 50-75% of the ideas and then let the people from outside decide.

Ideas that we need to make the story work will be included automatically, assuming they aren't insane or too extreme.

As Freeza has said, there will be fighting and whining, but the decision makers must decide for the best of ALL the users.

[dm-horus]

stormy, my rant wasnt directed at you or genesis. im directing it at the lameass ideas for modding op2 or for an un named sequel. im not singling out your crew, but if some people on it are responsible for some of the ideas then they can consider this a reality check. the genesis team is much better now than it was earlier this year as a whole, so im not picking on you guys.

i get the feeling you think im DIRECTLY PERSONALLY ATTACKING GENESIS and im not. im criticising some of the ideas and (now) the people who keep coming up with them. you dont need to keep defending the direction of genesis because that doesnt matter at this point. we are arguing over low level concepts. you are dealing with high level finilized work and the stuff freeza and i are ranting over havent gotten to that point yet. its alright to defend you and your team, but im not going after you.

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its telling that the only defense people can mount against my and freeza's criticisms are related to our wording and delivery. so far NOBODY has made a good argument for these ideas other than "we should be allowed to cuz yur not the bossa me /cry"

why not try coming up with a technical defense for these ideas? simply thinking it up isnt reason enough to use it. give us technical reasons for these ideas to be in the game. and i DONT mean "because eden is unbalanced and this will PWN eden nowz!!!1111 one"

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i am NOT singling out anybody or any group. im not going after omagaalpha. im going after the ideas themselves for what they are and the people who continue to push some of the worst ideas. imo, they have been asking for it by insisting upon their half baked ideas this far.

[Stormy]

I didn't intend to make it appear to defend myself or the genesis team in that post, nor did i think that it was directed at us, I just wanted to get some things cleared up.

He does have some points, we need some real solid information about those ideas that people keep bringing up...

[Tramis]

stormy, my rant wasnt directed at you or genesis. im directing it at the lameass ideas for modding op2 or for an un named sequel.

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This is the Outpost 3: Genesis board.  This isnt for modding OP2, or an unnamed sequel, this is for Outpost 3: Genesis.  We're making ideas for, outpost 3 genesis.  That's what these ideas have been for this entire time.

its telling that the only defense people can mount against my and freeza's criticisms are related to our wording and delivery. so far NOBODY has made a good argument for these ideas other than "we should be allowed to cuz yur not the bossa me /cry"

why not try coming up with a technical defense for these ideas? simply thinking it up isnt reason enough to use it. give us technical reasons for these ideas to be in the game. and i DONT mean "because eden is unbalanced and this will PWN eden nowz!!!1111 one"

I've seen no such argument in the boards at all.  Could you show me where you're reading this in a PM plz?  I appear to have missed it.

That's just my two cents on the matter.  Not pointing fingers, just questioning a few points.

[dm-horus]

Tramis, it doesnt really matter what board this is. The ideas flying around are utter crap. Once AGAIN, it wouldnt be a problem with me or freeza if the people coming up with them werent so insistant. Some of the ideas themselves really arent so bad but the way they are described, presented and suggest implimentation just make me want to laugh and Ive had enough.

Writing out the ideas carefully or trying to make them sound more official only works if the concept is inherently feasible or good in anyway, but filling a comment with hyperbole simply to cover the fact that its utter nonsense is irritating and amateurish. And I think thas at the root of the issue here. There are alot of amateurs here who think simply having ideas entitles them to some sort of dev position and that isnt true anywhere. Lots of ideas are really good for development but not when dozens of them arent just bad, theyre REALLY REALLY bad and make no sense no matter how you look at them. A bad idea is something that wouldnt work the stuff we are seeing go way beyond just that.

Lets say theres a dev meeting at Ford. Theyre working on a new car. If most of the ideas are: "Lets put the front end of a dumptruck on it because people like power, but then we should make the back end a tricycle because people like maneuverability." You end up with something that looks like its out of Dr. Seuss, which is what alot of the ideas going around the forum are trying to do.

The people making the suggestions have no experience making games of any kind. They obviously play games and from the looks of it lots of old, obscure, second-rate games. If StarCraft is the best RTS reference you can come up with, you really shouldnt even be thinking about game dev.

How many people making suggestions have written a mod? Done modelling? Been on a dev team? Done Beta testing? How many games have been made or were in development with your contribution?

Since Im sure the only counter-argument I will see will be going after the above paragraph and not any of the other legitimate points Ive made, Ill tell you that I dont consider myself an expert of game author but I have made a great deal of mods/addons for various games and I do beta testing at UW on a regular basis. So instead of attacking me personally, why not try and explain some of the real issues.

[Betaray]

ok, lets not think about all the little details and balanceing issues, those will be handled by the developers

lets get down to the point, custom units, yes or no?

[Freeza-CII]

Things like this cant be left down to a simple yes or no.  You say yes i want to know why if i say no you need to know why comment and counter and then it turns right back around into this because a idea is some of the most volitile things.  Any one that makes up the idea usually will defend it to the death because they think its the best uber idea ever even if they dont admit it. If you dont think about the outcome of the idea and its effect on the game till later then all this stuff will just happen later.

[Tramis]

Like Stormy said, the dumb ideas simply won't be used, the good ones will be used, and it's not worth getting pissed over.  If you don't attack an idea that simply won't be used anyways, they won't defend it, and nobody gets angry, nobody gets their feelings hurt.  It's just a game!

When Betaray asked for a yes or no, that's assuming that the devs can come up with a feasible and balanced way to implement it.  He even said so.

Again, just my two cents, not pointing any fingers.

[dm-horus]

Look back and read.... well, all my comments so far. Youll see that I clearly stated that Im not talking about what gets into the game. I know that theres a fairly decent system to keep the s*** ideas OUT of the game.

But again I will say that Im not referencing that stage. Im talking about the concept stage where everybody throws ideas out there. The ideas people are pushing are crap. I know most of them wont get into any game (mostly due to the fact that I doubt any game will actually be made) but putting bad idea after bad idea on the table isnt helping anything.

Once again, in case it wasnt clear enough:

I AM REASONABLY AWARE THAT THESE IDEAS WILL NOT BE IN A GAME. THE REASON FOR MY LARGE AND FREQUENT COMMENTS IN THIS ARGUMENT IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT IM TIRED OF SEEING CRAPPY IDEAS. IM TIRED OF THEIR CREATORS FIGHTING TOOTH AND NAIL TO JUSTIFY THEM FOR WEAK REASONS. THEYRE CRAP AND THEY SHOULDNT EVEN BE CONSIDERED. PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE HINT LONG AGO THAT YOU NEED TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER THAN EDEN FIREBATS.

In case youre still wondering if Im worried about what makes it into an OP2 sequel, scroll back up and read it again.

Oh yeah and let me direct your attention here.

[Stormy]

I think this will all become a whole lot easier once the outline has been posted.

[Chandler]

In SMAC/X the player was able to design their own units with an assortment of chasse(sp), reactors, weapons, armor, and two unit augmentation slots.  Obviously in a turn based game the player has time to design these, in a RTS things need to be much more simple so a player can do things quickly.

I propose three modules - the chasse, weapon slot, and augmentation slot, although this obviously doesn't have to be set in stone.  Same with my examples that follows, its just for the gist.

Perhaps a system like Warzone 2100 - an RTS - that only research and assembled the following:

• Chassis - i.e. Lynx, Panther, Tiger (can't remember WZ2100 equivalent
• Drivetrain - would be new to OP (in WZ2100, had Wheels, Half-Track, Tracked, Hover, etc)
• Weapons - i.e. Laser/Microwave, Railgun, RPG (in WZ2100, Machinegun, Rockets, Mortar, etc. WZ2100 Also had "weapons" like a Sensor Turret. Units could be "assigned" to a Sensor Tower/vehicle with a sensor turret, and anything that came within sensor range would be attacked by the vehicles attached to that tower/turret)

Edit: Cut down the quote. B)

My First post on this topic... doesn't sound complex, noob, insane, etc.

And whats the problem with DISCUSSING ideas? Does it really matter that we talk about customising units to you? I can't see the problem. Talk about putting Sandworms and Spice in it for all I care - they are people's own ideas for the game. If noone likes it, it doesn't get put it anyway.

All your flaming will do is disencourage people from posting their ideas, and so we may MISS OUT on a really good idea, because the person was too afraid to post.

So I guess that your one of the people who believe we shouldn't even be allowed to DISCUSS the old cheats for OP2, as it would encourage people to try using something that WILL NOT WORK, and only in single player IF they download the older version they CAN'T USE in multiplayer....

Freedom of Speech - I don't see the problem.

As I said earlier - REMEMBER, we're all friends here.

[Freeza-CII]

Vecs already attack when some thing is in range in op2 i dont see why that would be left out in op3.  If IT is going to resemble op2.  I am sorry i just dont see a tracked Lynx or a Half track lynx.  All these combos to me seem pointless.  When it only comes down to 4 things armor speed damage and the player.  I think it would just be better to have the weapons and vecs be built op2 style and if you want a upgrade your research it not all this Tricking out your units before hand because all it will lead to is people find the best combo and then never change pretty much like the ESG and Thors hammer.

[dm-horus]

Exactly freeza. I play alot of Earth 2160 where you can customize every unit at at least 8 unique points. All that custom s*** does is force me to go into the custom unit creator at the beginning of the game and immediately slap the best stuff on the largest chassis and just spit them out. The game has 3 types of weapons which all have the same range, strength and properties. This makes them pointless. It makes the whole thing pointless. Ya its kool at first but then all you can think is "man i wish there was just a button and built this" instead of going in and having to make it yourself by hand. so in the end, the op2 style unit building system really is the best. ive written countless volumes in this forum as well as other gaming forums  on this subject. the fact is, people dont know how to engineer freedom and focus in the same product. either you can have all the customization you want but it comes out being pointless or you are stuck in a rigid system that you cannot operate out of. thats just how it is and no game system that exists now allows us to do what would really need to be done to make the concept work.

and once again, in the end, it comes back to my main argument. after all the extra s*** people are stressing over it always comes back to pointlessness. You would be adding years to the development time along with endless arguments, tweaking and patching just to produce something that people would bypass.

think about it, if yur playing a ladder tourney are you really gonna care if you can design custom bumpers for yur lynx? no. you want chess pieces.

[Betaray]

why don't we take something our of the mechwarior series? in that series you can customized your mech as much as you want, but there is never an "uber stick the best stuff on and rule everything" configuration, online all the people dont use the same mechs with the same load out, no its a matter of persional preference, which is what customisation is all about, if they did put it in game and within months everyone was using the same chassis/weapon whatever, than the system was built wrong, and is not balanced, it would be a flaw in design, not in the concept itself

[Freeza-CII]

oh my betaray in i have played mech warrior 2 and 3 and with its open point system you can put any thing on as long as you have space.  Playing Mechwarrior 2 online people came up with classes and conformity.  And alo of people shared the same configuration because it truely was superior based on how things were damaged.  And in Mechwarrior 2 there are 4 weapons that are the uber weapons PPC AC5-20 (Auto Cannon Big damn projectile gun.)  Not to mention that there are missiles that lock on.  Mechwarrior 4 is slightly different with Hard point in which only certain weapons can fit some where.  Since op2 really has one weapon style per turret I dont see how the mechwarrior weapon system would work.  Mechs are built for mass weapons not the singular weapons.  And i do know they had tanks in the mech games but they followed the same weapons plan as having a main weapon and missiles.

[croxis]

Considering the number of games that have been developed you might be hard pressed to come up with a concept that has never been done before.  Are all RTS rip-off of Total Annihilation? You may as well just flat out take the argument to absolute absurdity and say 95% of all computer games are rip-offs of Spacewar.

There is a concept, and there is implementation.  Star Craft, Rise of Nations, Civilization, Sim City 2000 all had research.  Oh noez OP3 can't have research at all its copying another game!n00b diezorz!!!!!!111!!!!ONE!!!!!  Please.  It is one thing to try and prevent another star-craft clone and its another to shut eyes and plug ears to anything anyone else has done.

Like I mentioned (but seems to have been conveniently ignored) there is a concept and there is an implementation of said concept.  Starcraft, Rise of Nations, Civilization, and Simcity 2000 all had research but in each case it was implemented very differently.

Unit construction is a very basic concept which allows the unit to make their own units.  HOW the player can do that will depend on other game devices and mechanics, which will in turn depend on other mechanics.  I simply made argument with assumed premises which I very clearly stated.  Obviously if the mechanics are different than the implementation I suggested would not work.  Just because I didn't barge in boasting about my qualifications does not mean I have no clue what I am talking about.

Like I said (again, conveniently ignored), just because I said "here is an idea with said assumptions" does not grant the right for people to throw temper tantrums and name calling.  Referencing other games for ideas or critiques is NOT a bad thing but can be quite useful for examples and seeing where things work well and when they did not.  Its what people who actually design games do.