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Projects & Development => OutpostHD => Projects => Graphics Update => Topic started by: White Claw on August 14, 2017, 10:31:27 PM

Title: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on August 14, 2017, 10:31:27 PM
A couple Tokamak designs...
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on August 15, 2017, 04:29:49 AM
Definitely prefer the second of the two. There seems to be too much red though -- wonder if changing the upper ring of red lights to say, white or purple would help with that.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Hooman on August 20, 2017, 08:06:02 AM
Wow, I like those. The second one does look really cool.

Though I'm a bit apprehensive about the tube placement. Would you really want tubes leading right into a tokamak? Makes me think it could be a "feature" if the agridomes are a bit short on food.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on August 20, 2017, 01:13:49 PM
Well, you'd need to have a way to connect it with the rest of the colony and provide a safe way for the workers to enter.

Also, strictly speaking, a fusion reactor would be inherently safe. Much more so than a fission reactor. Should you end up with a containment breach you don't have a massive explosion -- just a big fizzle and a very fast quenching of the reaction. Would lead to radioactivity leaking into the structure and possibly the immediate surrounding environment. But unlike in OP1, you don't have a huge disaster on your hands, just the loss of the structure. Haven't decided if it's something that would require demolishing the structure and rebuilding or if it could be repaired. Me thinks a repair cycle would work for it (perhaps longer than the two turns of other structures).
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on August 20, 2017, 01:43:07 PM
As a point of note, the original OP1 Tokamak also had tubes. Again, not that we're anchored to what existed in the past.

(http://wiki.outpost2.net/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=outpost_1:tokamak_fusion_reactor.png)
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on August 20, 2017, 01:44:34 PM
No changes, but here is the Tokamak without the terrain tile.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Sirbomber on August 20, 2017, 07:34:40 PM
It does look a little too, for lack of a better word, sinister with all the dark and red.  Do you have the underground component drawn out yet?
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on August 20, 2017, 09:34:57 PM
I agree, it's too much red. I really enjoy the way it's coming along, but it's not quite in the style as the other buildings. I am a big curious to see how it looks in game with the other buildings though.

I don't have the underground portion done yet (nor started). I've not begun work on any of the UG facilities.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Goof on August 21, 2017, 11:35:48 AM
Technically speaking, if the goal is to terraform the planet the design should not leak radiations on the surface of the planet.
As you would have to clean that pollution too when the terra formation will began.
Having the thermo-reaction unshielded to the outside of the structure would not be the best idea.
Even if I admit that the glowing would be nice, but deadly to practically anybody and damages the structures and robots working aside the reactor.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Hooman on August 21, 2017, 02:00:31 PM
Quote
Would lead to radioactivity leaking into the structure and possibly the immediate surrounding environment

Such as the tubes! Which link to the rest of the colony.

I think the sinister glowing is indeed what bothers me about it. It looks like the tubes lead right into a deadly beam of radiation and plasma.

Which isn't to say I don't like it. Sinister is good. Rather than change the model, why not just throw some dark humor into the game about the sinister design?


Looking at the original, the lack of glowing seems to suggest the tubes lead into a superstructure which surrounds the actual reaction chamber. It looks somehow safer.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Goof on August 21, 2017, 02:50:49 PM
In the original game, the reactor core (Tokamak) was the underground part of the structure.
So the upper structure doesn't contain the fusion.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on August 21, 2017, 06:20:00 PM
The original game made a lot of assumptions that were wrong. First and foremost, they went with a Tokamak design. This design doesn't work and it never will which is why in OPHD it's called a Fusion Reactor instead. Bruce Balfour really just went all in on fancy jargon and it's annoying now looking back at it 23 years after the fact (and 23 years from now my assumptions will likely look just as ridiculous).

Fusion reactors are inherently safe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power#Safety_and_the_environment). The worst disaster that could happen with a fusion reactor is a containment breach leading to an immediate and thorough 'quench' of the reaction. Basically a big poof and a radioactive cloud that dilutes so fast that by the time it gets into the atmosphere its toxicity is far, far less than the radioactivity you'd be getting from the host star.

As a side note, because of the way fusion reactors work, there is no need for a containment vessel; The reactor design in Outpost was flawed. A structure on a the surface is enough. Adding an underground structure doesn't do anything except add an extra structure in terms of gameplay mechanics and it's thoroughly unrealistic because the colonists are smart enough to know that fusion reactors don't make mushroom clouds. Come to think of it, neither do fission reactors but that's a whole different story.



To address some 'disasters' that might occur with a fusion reactor (I suppose this really doesn't belong in this thread but meh), the biggest problem you're likely to encounter is a containment magnet quench (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power#Magnet_quench). Loud bang, lots of sparks, reactor stops being useful and you're down a few turns while new components are fitted onto the reactor and possibly new coils built.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on September 01, 2017, 04:44:32 PM
Some tweaks, and toned down the red quite a bit.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on September 01, 2017, 05:16:21 PM
Looking good. Seems it's a subtle difference but I have a feeling this will fit better.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on September 03, 2017, 11:46:08 PM
Not excited about this one yet, but thought I would put it up as a work in progress to get some feedback.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on September 04, 2017, 12:21:39 AM
Middle one works the best me thinks.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Vagabond on September 04, 2017, 01:09:06 AM
I like the single dish. It looks a lot cleaner than trying to put four on a single tile.

Looking good!

-Brett
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on September 04, 2017, 01:16:09 AM
You may have a point. It would certainly be easier to see in-game. And when I think about it... if you have a solar power plant on earth, the newest ones almost look like a giant dish. They're made up of many mirrors that adjust with the angle of the sun but in this game it's a satellite in geosynchronous orbit beaming microwaves into a surface collector... so a large collection dish would probably make a lot more sense.


(https://snag.gy/PL5JHE.jpg)

In-game it's definitely more distinct as the single dish.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: havkyp on September 04, 2017, 06:21:19 AM
Not excited about this one yet, but thought I would put it up as a work in progress to get some feedback.

Sorry to be nitpick-y: I love the big single dish version, but can it be made cleaner-looking by removing the four dark lines inside the dish?
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on September 04, 2017, 02:29:41 PM
Might look a little plain that way though.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Vagabond on September 04, 2017, 08:23:27 PM
White Claw and Leeor,

You may have already thought about this, but something to consider is color grouping for different aspects of the game. For example in Outpost 2 they use 3 different colors for background terrain (grayish mud/dirt, orangeish/yellow sand, and the blacking dark rock). Eden structures are all white/light gray and Plymouth structures are all brownish. The structures stand out nicely from the surrounding terrain, except maybe Eden against the gray mud. They use 7 different colors to indicate player type which are all very vivid versions of the color that stick out from the background building and terrain colors.

I really enjoy the visuals in a game that has a thought out color pallete that allows different elements of the game to mesh and pop out well together. This might be a little counter to what we see in real life though, so maybe more of a preference thing.

In the pic Leeor posted, the bluish color of the tubes and buildings tends to blend in with the bluish terrain. The colony might pop a little nicer with more distinct color choices.

But, all that being said everything is looking great the way it is. With the graphics currently being added, I would be quite happy playing the game and enjoying the visuals.

Also, it is good to design the colors to work well for people with varying levels of color blindness. The hard part about this is people range in just having a little trouble to seeing green and red apart to only seeing in grayscale. I think someone mentioned having a little trouble seeing two colors apart in a different thread so they would actually be a great choice to look at the artwork regularly to make sure it makes sense.

One thing that can help in something like a GUI that uses color coordination is to also place a symbol in each color to add a second way to distinguish outside of color (not that OutpostHD needs this).

Even further off topic, it is a really good idea to enable multiple input devices and make the key bindings reconfigurable. This way people that have different disabilities and needs in regards to range of motion can reconfigure the game as needed. Maybe a mouse works better than a keyboard for some or even a gamepad. Perhaps they need keys on the keyboard mapped differently than is appropriate for what is considered normal typing. For a turn based game, this probably isn't as big a deal as in a real time game, but still a great feature.

Anyways, sorry if I digressed really far, just something on my mind and maybe better to think about now before the artwork gets too far. Although you all may have already covered it all.

Unfortunately, developing robust key bindings and proper graphics take a lot of time at the expense of other features that a small team of volunteers don't really have available to finish the project, so there is a balance I suppose.

-Brett
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on September 05, 2017, 07:40:17 PM
I think multiple key bindings, etc...might be a bit off topic for the power structure graphics. However, point taken.

As for the color palette, I agree in general. Funny enough, my slight bit of attempt at adding color to the CHAP was met with "the blue up top is too much." This thread is also a good example, where the Tokamak above has "too much red." And the solar receiver array is nearly all shades of gray with the couple of dark lines on the dish, but even that bit of breakup met with a request about its removal.

It's a tough balance to match up, between having a consistent theme while making things stand out and have distinction. I'm also not the best at coming up with novel ideas as such, so that's added to my challenge. Don't get me wrong, I very much value the feedback. I'm just not sure I have the skills to make everything clean with high definition and varied color, while not making things overly busy and hard to actually discern. That's also why I've been asking for feedback, but it is not always congruent.

I would also say that even moving toward a color scheme similar to Plymouth would have it's challenges, since that color might blend in with the Mars-ish terrain in the same way as this gray-white color scheme meshes into the Moon-like terrain. These graphics are small, and that means details are big. It's hard to even have much variety in a given material, since the subtle changes due to lighting are hardly visible.

Also, Leeor is the one who has color difficulty. So he's getting the chance to look at the graphics quite often.

Hopefully I don't sound too much like I'm whining. I am struggling a bit on color schemes in general and it's something I've been trying to figure out. I'm just not quite there yet.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Hooman on September 06, 2017, 01:03:24 AM
Quote
As for the color palette, I agree in general. Funny enough, my slight bit of attempt at adding color to the CHAP was met with "the blue up top is too much." This thread is also a good example, where the Tokamak above has "too much red." And the solar receiver array is nearly all shades of gray with the couple of dark lines on the dish, but even that bit of breakup met with a request about its removal.

Heh, you can't please everyone. I wouldn't worry about it. The stuff you're doing is amazing.

I rather like the new tokamak image. This discussion also got me thinking, perhaps save the really red version for the case of a tokamak nearing it's serviceable end of life. ;)

I also like the one big dish variant of the solar array. It looks nice, and also seems to make sense for the reasons stated above. Players can always built lots of them for a real array.  :D
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on September 06, 2017, 03:03:58 PM
It's why I'm considering renaming it to just a simple Solar Receiver. Ultimately when you think about how it actually works you really only need the one dish per satellite.

As for color -- that's the hardest part in developing visuals. It's what makes skilled artists so good at what they do. Take, for example, DawnBringer's palettes (http://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12795). These are meant almost exclusively for low-color pixel art but the point is that the color mix itself is extremely well selected and with good use of those colors provides an excellent balance of hue, vibrance, saturation and contrast.

And now that I'm thinking about it, that's our problem right there -- contrast. There is a lack of contrast between the terrain tiles and the structures. I don't know that we necessarily need to recolor the structures vs. simply increasing their contrast and tweaking the coloration of the terrain tiles.



To address the keybindings question, view this post (https://forum.outpost2.net/index.php?topic=6013.new#new).
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Goof on September 07, 2017, 04:32:38 PM
The Solar array was designed to work with the solar satellites.
In fact, if I remember well what I read, there was planed to work two Solar array per satellites.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on September 07, 2017, 08:56:20 PM
That's true for the original game but me thinks that's a little unrealistic. Still, it could be a useful gameplay mechanic -- e.g., for every solar satellite you can build up to 2 receivers. Maybe with research that can be increased. Probably the topic for a different thread in the main board.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: lordpalandus on September 08, 2017, 01:35:22 AM
That entirely depends on how much current is being transferred to the receiver. If there is sufficient current, I could see a satellite sending it to two receivers. Could also depend on how much current a single receiver can handle. As there wouldn't likely be any step-transformers involved in either transmitting or receiving to modify the voltage, or resistors to reduce the amount of current, its entirely feasible that you'd need two receivers.

Or maybe Im not understanding the issue at all XD. My physics is rusty.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: JetMech1999 on October 14, 2017, 04:38:08 PM
Definitely like Tokamak 03A the best.  And would also have to agree about a single large dish on the array.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on October 22, 2017, 01:20:14 PM
Take, for example, DawnBringer's palettes (http://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12795). These are meant almost exclusively for low-color pixel art but the point is that the color mix itself is extremely well selected and with good use of those colors provides an excellent balance of hue, vibrance, saturation and contrast.

Thanks for the point out. I will take a look at the philosophy behind this and see if I can implement something similar. Maybe two opposing pallets for terrain vs. structures to increase contrast and distinction, as you pointed out.

And would also have to agree about a single large dish on the array.

I think after having been away for a bit and coming back, I'm also liking the large array. Although I also remember having discussions with Leeor about making the scale of the terrain (as compared to the buildings) feeling large. So perhaps a single dish, but a little smaller so it's not taking up the entire tile.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on October 22, 2017, 05:19:08 PM
And would also have to agree about a single large dish on the array.

I think after having been away for a bit and coming back, I'm also liking the large array. Although I also remember having discussions with Leeor about making the scale of the terrain (as compared to the buildings) feeling large. So perhaps a single dish, but a little smaller so it's not taking up the entire tile.

Agreeing with this. I like that though. The single dish does make more sense since the satellite would only be sending down one, maybe two beams so one larger dish would be far, far more effective than an array of smaller dishes.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: JetMech1999 on May 18, 2018, 06:46:36 PM
Was going through this thread today, and something occurred to me.  Even if one solar satellite sent two beams, realistically you're limited to two solar receiving dishes.  I've also seen elsewhere that once you have the Fusion Reactor, you're set on power for a while.  But you will still outgrow that capacity.  Could you link lab research and factory production to producing actual solar arrays?  This would supplement the Fusion Reactor by using direct solar energy, not just beamed microwave energy.  Even on planets that don't get a great deal of solar radiation, more arrays would translate into more power.

The other thing is that we know that satellites have a finite lifespan.  So, just like with the starship, couldn't you work into the scenario that any satellites that you brought with you would eventually die and fall to the planet?  Your lab research could advance into satellite production, so you could launch as many satellites as you wanted to provide you with whatever you were seeking for.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on May 21, 2018, 10:13:54 PM
The problem with solar panel arrays is that ... well... they won't work on a lot of planets. I'm not opposed to the idea, actually I like it as it would eliminate the need to launch satellites but would still require maintenance (like having robots or people going out and scrubbing the panels of dust and dirt) whereas the satellite beamed power wouldn't be susceptible to dust storms and heavy cloud cover (or at least not as much). Not sure which would be the upgrade...
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on June 05, 2018, 12:25:02 AM
No idea which this one is. I think it's part of the power infrastructure?

Also, I think the shadows aren't working quite like I'd hoped. If/when you have a chance, seeing this in game would probably be handy.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on June 05, 2018, 09:50:25 AM
I'm not sure which structure that was from the original game. Possibly an upgrade to the Fusion Reactor? Anyway, I'll get that into the game later tonight (or at least a mockup) and see how it looks.

Also, I'm rethinking my idea on the solar panel arrays as a cheap way to produce power at the start of the game. Do you think you could come up with a solar panel array? I doubt very much that it would be used near end-game but for the beginning it would be extremely useful especially since the player won't be able to launch solar satellites right away and these would be a good way to generate small amounts of power for the beginning of the game.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on June 08, 2018, 12:11:43 AM
Sure, I can work up a solar array. Are you thinking photo-voltaic or a solar collector type thing? I think the former would be more readily recognizable.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on June 08, 2018, 04:22:14 PM
Photo-voltaic. May not be the most super realistic but definitely more recognizable and I'm expecting them to push out a very low base rate anyway (like maybe 30 power?)
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Goof on June 09, 2018, 08:48:28 AM
I like the idea of photo-voltaic array.

But I would see it as multi part structure as surface is a way to increase power output with that kind of technology.

As to increase power it could use more than one tile to set up it would need two or more structures
- photo-voltaic array control center
- photo-voltaic node

Photo-voltaic array control center
It would generate a small amount of power by itself as it would have solar panels too. (15 for example)
It will also get the workers to maintain a full sized array. (control/repairs)
It would be relatively expensive to build

Photo-voltaic node
It will be Photo-voltaic only nodes they do need workers directly.
They should be build directly aside a control center/node and generate a bit more power.
They would be limited to 3 or 5 per control center
They would produce as 30 of power as you suggested.
It would be relatively cheap.

For the workers, at least 2 technicians.
One for control and the other for repairs.
When the array is expanded add only one technician at 1+2 configuration
And two at 1+4 configuration

The global production for an array would be between 15 and 165

15 energy for 1+0 conf. and 2 workers
45 energy for 1+1 conf. and 2 workers
75 energy for 1+2 conf. and 3 workers
105 energy for 1+3 conf. and 3 workers
135 energy for 1+4 conf. and 4 workers
165 energy for 1+5 conf. and 4 workers

Then, some tech research would permit upgrade to more efficient panels.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on June 09, 2018, 12:17:11 PM
Some works-in-progress for the solar arrays, to show a bit of the evolution for the design. I figured I'd show these here in case there was a particular style you liked.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on June 09, 2018, 12:19:42 PM
After the initial designs, I chose version C.

I moved the panels around a little and made them larger and added some details. I ideally made the design so you can put together a larger "array" of sorts and they should (hopefully) look like it's all part of one big solar farm. Neighboring panels will overlap slightly and hide some of the infrastructure, giving a bit of layering for your mind to fill in.

So here's the final.

I suppose the one thing I'm wondering for this is if it's too large and ruins the scale for other things?
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on June 09, 2018, 12:48:40 PM
But I would see it as multi part structure as surface is a way to increase power output with that kind of technology.

I'll leave the details of implementation to Leeor, but I am a man of simplicity. I could agree on the need for a worker for cleaning and repairs (as a couple folks have pointed out), but I don't know about a building that's reliant on other buildings. With maybe the exception of the command center, I don't think there are other structures in the game that operate that way (though the solar receiver is reliant upon satellites). Also, Leeor mentioned it being a cheap early game option?


Possibly a way to give the solar arrays a bit of longevity in the late game would be to make a launchable solar reflector. A giant mylar reflector that concentrates additional solar power at the solar array. (A "poor man's" version of the solar receiver?)

Again, all up to Leeor if he wants to just make it an early game option (and delay the tokamak, or whatever). I'm just here to fill this thread with pictures.

Cheers
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on June 09, 2018, 01:01:01 PM
And here's a redo of the earlier building #373. (I'm leaving the old post/graphic for posterity.)

The shadows aren't spilling out everywhere. Though I'm also seeing these will be a continual challenge because the shadow from the sun will often spill off the back left of the tile. I can't really set it spill too far (if at all) because I imagine it will not look right when there's another building next to it ("in" the shadow).

Also, I've been working on tweaks and included two variants here. One has the black outline and the second one does not. I think I got rid of most of the blurriness that shows up in my earlier graphics, so let me know what you think without the lines. Personally I think you can the colors better (especially on small details) without the lines, but I still want to make sure the details actually pop out. I'm trying to use more color contrast to help with that, along with some other rendering adjustments.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on June 09, 2018, 04:58:22 PM
Digging the solar panel -- it's exactly what I was hoping for.

As for the update of the other building, I like the one without outlines better. In this case it works better without I think.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on June 09, 2018, 07:56:52 PM
Thought I'd provide an update. Here is the solar panel array in-game:

(https://snag.gy/owc0in.jpg)
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on June 10, 2018, 03:34:23 PM
New solar panel array with connector stubs.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: White Claw on July 22, 2018, 12:59:58 AM
Updated solar receiver array...to bring it in line with the updated materials and style. Hopefully a bridge of style between the solar panel array and the tokamak.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: Hooman on July 22, 2018, 04:57:29 AM
Hey, pretty cool. I like it.  :)
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: leeor_net on July 22, 2018, 11:24:06 AM
Looks really good! Added to the current build.
Title: Re: Power Structures
Post by: JetMech1999 on August 01, 2018, 06:32:33 PM
Like it.