Outpost Universe Forums
Off Topic => General Interest => Topic started by: dave_erald on November 18, 2015, 05:45:59 PM
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So where does everyone think this game would have gone had Sierra had its act together and continued on with the series?
I always kinda guessed that we would have followed this new Starship to a new planet or system of planets and found that the Eden and Plymouth colonies were reborn from the continued disagreements carried over from New Terra. With the extra planets and moons they could really stretch out and grow but sort of follow theme that we all generally liked from Outpost2.
That's my two cents.
Anyone else?
P.S. I've also toyed with the thought of them doing an FPS on New Terra similar to the Command and Conquer game.
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In terms of the FPS, just a few thoughts:
It;s still on New Terra with whatever remaining colonists there are.
The remaining colonists have fractured into three factions -- those trying to find a way to live with the blight, those trying to eliminate the blight and those trying to bend the blight to their will. Or something like that.
Would make for a defense/offense kind of game.
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I like the idea of the Blight thing as didn't the official novella have some the Savants get taken over by the Blight and melded into one?
Now that I get thinking that right there makes for some interesting story telling...
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Yeah, they mentioned that but I think it's a silly idea. I was going to go for something like that with Outpost 3: Genesis but the reality is, based on the technology they described if anything at all the boptronic circuits would simply degrade and break. The Savant's are just computer AI's running on boptronic circuitry so the reality is that it should simply fail, not become a sentient entity.
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I would have fallen for that theory had they left it as just messing up vehicles or building controls, not creating an entirely new Sentient being.
However, there must be a way to create life in this manner. Any advanced biochemists in the house?
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(http://arklon.outpost2.net/other/OP3_Nutshell.jpg)
:P
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Goddamn. Wraps everything up right there.
No argument.
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Yeah, they mentioned that but I think it's a silly idea. I was going to go for something like that with Outpost 3: Genesis but the reality is, based on the technology they described if anything at all the boptronic circuits would simply degrade and break. The Savant's are just computer AI's running on boptronic circuitry so the reality is that it should simply fail, not become a sentient entity.
The Savants created the Blight to make a perfect world for Savants, as was revealed at some point in the novella (apparently Nguyen didn't word his request very well and Savants are like trolling genies). It was designed from the start for their own biological components to be able to integrate with it. I also remember emailing Steven York and he confirmed that's what happened in the end of the Plymouth novella, and from there it would be able to intelligently modify its genome to implement more sophisticated and less destructive metabolic strategies so it doesn't starve itself out (like the Blight would have eventually if left as is), then continue self-directed evolution.
I made a thread a long time ago detailing any tech-related stuff (including Savants and the Blight) I could find in the novella and other written materials, you can check it out if you want. http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,3696.0.html
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Oh Arklon, if only you put half the effort into your answer that Sirbomber did...
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... on a side note I need to brush up on my Outpost2 canon, I don't remember the second ship or the plot hole in that diagram, was that another planet?
...must have been, there's no other explanation.
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... on a side note I need to brush up on my Outpost2 canon, I don't remember the second ship or the plot hole in that diagram, was that another planet?
...must have been, there's no other explanation.
That image was Fenrisul's thoughts on the preliminary story for OP3 Genesis way back when it was being developed. :P You should have seen the story Betaray came up with for another OP3 years ago, it involved every huge disaster imaginable happening in rapid succession.
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I could only imagine the wild theories. I look back at some of what went on back in the day and its upsetting that with this many people more couldn't be accomplished towards a successor to Outpost2.
Leeor looks to be making good headway on his project and he's only one programmer.
Just need a good story and game design that doesn't infringe on I.P.
Also, every major disaster? I don't get to watch football on Sunday and I consider that a major disaster, not sure that would doom a species though...
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SirBomber... I don't think I could have illustrated it better myself. Genesis introduced a giant plothole though at least when I was still involved in the project there either wasn't a second ship from Earth or if there was they never ended up on the same planet as the Conestoga 2. But... that was a whatever.
No, we were talking about this a bit in IRC and as I explained at least for me it was purely speculation and a thought experiment. If the story were to be continued, how would it be done? Would we follow Conestoga 2 (is that what they even called it?)? Would it be a second colony ship from Earth? Would it take place on what's left of New Terra? Would it be another TBS? RTS? Maybe an RTS but with all the focus on rebuilding mankind on a new planet? Go the route of an entirely different genre just for shits and giggles to see what happens?
It's just a curiosity because I'm a terrible writer. I don't really have a good way to properly write a story. I'm a much better engineer.
Please don't flay me, I don't intend to start a new Outpost 3, I was just thinking if ever the series was to be continued what would be a good way to do it?
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It's just a curiosity because I'm a terrible writer. I don't really have a good way to properly write a story. I'm a much better engineer.
Please don't flay me, I don't intend to start a new Outpost 3, I was just thinking if ever the series was to be continued what would be a good way to do it?
Throw him on the spit, he be startin shit!
Actually I didn't mean for that to rhyme, or for it to sound as white as it does. I digress...
What I hoped to come out of this topic is more directions and arguments, I have an idea of where what I'm writing is going but having more to look at and think about is fantastic.
... okay maybe I'mm the one starting shit, so roast me than that's fine.
I sort of have something in the back of my head if ever there were a chance to get a group of people involved and create a new game devoid of the word Outpost and any IP infringement, but with a lot of what keeps everyone attached to Outpost 1 and 2.
( And if attached is too strong of a word, then it's just that we all have a spot for this game in our lives that may never leave I think. )
But back to what Leeor had started on IRC, how many other different stories could have come from the end of Outpost 2? There still must be people frequenting these boards that want to try there hand at some wild speculation with a side of debate?
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Leeor/dave_erald: why would we flame you for talking theory about a game we're all here to talk about? Go ahead and make another OP3; I won't stop you. I will be jaded and cynical about it, however. :P
I imagine OP3 would be like OP2 was to OP1: a reboot/reimagining. Look at the end of OP2: the colonists are united with their main source of conflict gone and with a magic computer that almost thinks of humanity as gods promising to send them all sorts of cool tech when they wake up from cold sleep. Wherever they ended up, they promptly turned it into a utopia. It's a great ending but a really lousy and boring game/story with no drama or conflict. Really the only logical place for an OP3 to start would be to start over in an alternate continuity, or following another group of survivors (could be another ship, Earth-based survivors who waited it out in stasis deep underground or in orbit, or colonists on Mars/the moon/Titan/some other place in the solar system).
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I will be jaded and cynical about it, however. :P
That's about what I would expect from you. :P
Really the only logical place for an OP3 to start would be to start over in an alternate continuity, or following another group of survivors (could be another ship, Earth-based survivors who waited it out in stasis deep underground or in orbit, or colonists on Mars/the moon/Titan/some other place in the solar system).
I had often thought about the waiting it out in orbit idea. Even for New Terra that could work. With the blight's rate of expansion, you'd think it'd eventually starve itself out. With only a partially complete spaceship in orbit, you could potentially evacuate enough people there, put them in stasis, forget about building an engine, and just wait. If you want to add some darkness to the story, maybe the hastily built spaceship of the winning colony explodes upon launch, taking the best and brightest of humanity with them. The cruft left behind who didn't earn a seat on the completed spaceship are then left to try to survive on the partially built spaceship of the losing colony.
But yeah, just a reboot with an alternative story, and an updated game engine sounds like the most likely way to continue.
As for the FPS idea brought up, that has potentially for quite a lot of darkness. Exterminate the last vestiges of humanity! Collect 200 "points" to win! ;)
Or you could have the savants go the route of HAL or GLaDOS. Lots of possibility for dark humor there. And science!
**: Colonist assigned to air-lock maintenance. Opening air-lock. "Wait! No! Arrrrgh! Gasp! *choke*". -- Sudden decompression sucks. :o
Science: Did you know that colonists kept in an oxygenated environment are far more likely to die of cancer than those kept in an oxygen free environment? ;)
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I always liked the storyline that KevinAR18 had set on his old website:
- Plymouth escapes/wins
- Eden manages somehow to get another spaceship going and follows Plymouth.
- Blight chases them both
- All 3 end up on planet X, where another colony vessel from earth has already landed and established the New Haven colony.
4 possible factions. Though the story line suffers some plot holes I guess
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Lol. Yeah, the plot seems a bit hard to explain. How exactly would the blight chase them? Not that I would object to having 4 factions to choose from. What exactly would the blight be as a faction though? I'm kind of thinking Zerg creep, but what else?
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I imagine OP3 would be like OP2 was to OP1: a reboot/reimagining. Look at the end of OP2: the colonists are united with their main source of conflict gone and with a magic computer that almost thinks of humanity as gods promising to send them all sorts of cool tech when they wake up from cold sleep. Wherever they ended up, they promptly turned it into a utopia. It's a great ending but a really lousy and boring game/story with no drama or conflict. Really the only logical place for an OP3 to start would be to start over in an alternate continuity, or following another group of survivors (could be another ship, Earth-based survivors who waited it out in stasis deep underground or in orbit, or colonists on Mars/the moon/Titan/some other place in the solar system).
Or set it in the far future from when OP2 ended. Though yeah, it never made sense to me that, since they already have stasis technology as well as the means to survive on another planet, why couldn't they just set up bunkers with stasis chambers and wait it out? Of course, bear in mind that Vulcan's Hammer was irradiated by the attempt to deflect it, which would then spread fallout throughout the atmosphere. That double whammy would surely cause an extinction event bigger than the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs.
I always liked the storyline that KevinAR18 had set on his old website:
- Plymouth escapes/wins
- Eden manages somehow to get another spaceship going and follows Plymouth.
- Blight chases them both
- All 3 end up on planet X, where another colony vessel from earth has already landed and established the New Haven colony.
4 possible factions. Though the story line suffers some plot holes I guess
Frankly it'd make more sense to not have all the factions somehow end up all colonizing the exact same planet (especially with the galaxy being as huge as it is). Alcubierre warp drive is (slightly) closer to a reality than half the things in OP2, you could have the game set across multiple planets and I'd say it'd still be hard sci-fi.
Lol. Yeah, the plot seems a bit hard to explain. How exactly would the blight chase them? Not that I would object to having 4 factions to choose from. What exactly would the blight be as a faction though? I'm kind of thinking Zerg creep, but what else?
I'd make it an enemy on the scale of the AI in AI War (https://arcengames.com/ai-war/), except not controlling everything from the start (but it would quickly grow to become that way). Not sure on all the details though.
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Science: Did you know that colonists kept in an oxygenated environment are far more likely to die of cancer than those kept in an oxygen free environment? ;)
Uhh, science has no place here sir.
4 possible factions. Though the story line suffers some plot holes I guess
Plot holes though... those are okay.
What if they got scared of ever landing planet side again? Not having any faith with planets they just stay in space? Maybe become one large fleet that just mine the next planets surface they come across as finding another earth like planet is not impossible just difficult to come across. Hmmm, not hating that line of thought either...
Really the only logical place for an OP3 to start would be to start over in an alternate continuity, or following another group of survivors (could be another ship, Earth-based survivors who waited it out in stasis deep underground or in orbit, or colonists on Mars/the moon/Titan/some other place in the solar system).
This right here, if ever there was going to be a OP3 makes the most sense to me. Leave the story of OP2 as them leaving and gone to find another planet, and this game picking up on the second ship or Mars colony. Which begs the question, why wouldn't you just pack shit up and go to Mars? An extinction level event such as a large asteroid would bitch up the surface of only half the planet. The shit storm of impact would blanket the atmosphere in a thick layer of dirt that would eventually settle out after having froze more than 50% of the planet. Wait fifty or so years and then fly back to earth and cleanup the mess.
There, boom. Solved. *drops mic, walks off OPU site*
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There's a problem with the idea of the "losing" colony "waits it out in orbit" or "somehow finishes the second ship and follow". Despite both campaigns having you build and launch the starship components, the novella makes it pretty clear that Plymouth never even started work on their own starship because they planned on stealing Eden's from the very beginning. There is no half-finished starship conveniently waiting in orbit for someone to use as they see fit.
As for "why not go to Mars" there was talk in Outpost 1 about "other planetary impacts" so maybe Mars was going to get hit too. Of course whether anything from OP1 applies to OP2 is really a matter of personal preference. It's also worth remembering that the original survivors from Earth didn't intentionally head towards New Terra from the get-go; they were drifting from star to star for (at least) 100 years looking for another Earth. They chose New Terra not because it was what they wanted but because they were running out of fuel and getting desperate.
And in response to "OP3 takes place in the same continuity as OP2 but hundreds/thousands of years in the future" why bother? OP2 is a hard sci-fi game about a desperate struggle to survive. Putting the story forward 1,000 years also pushes the tech level into magical super-science territory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Commander_%28video_game%29) and the size of the population. It wouldn't be "Outposty" anymore, for lack of a better word. Unless you're suggesting that even after 1,000 years technology hasn't advanced at all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000) and there are still only 200 people left alive (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Grimdark)?
And while I'm at it, since dave_erald mentioned "just stay in space and strip mine planets for resources as needed (https://www.sinsofasolarempire.com/)"...
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All my good ideas taken...
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Time for some bad ideas, then. :P
I was talking to Betaray about a "joke" game that would follow science team that got "left behind" on Jupiter's moon, Europa. It would take place in the subsurface ocean and everything was going to be a submarine. I was going to call it "Outpost Underwater".
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And in response to "OP3 takes place in the same continuity as OP2 but hundreds/thousands of years in the future" why bother? OP2 is a hard sci-fi game about a desperate struggle to survive. Putting the story forward 1,000 years also pushes the tech level into magical super-science territory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Commander_%28video_game%29) and the size of the population. It wouldn't be "Outposty" anymore, for lack of a better word. Unless you're suggesting that even after 1,000 years technology hasn't advanced at all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000) and there are still only 200 people left alive (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Grimdark)?
And while I'm at it, since dave_erald mentioned "just stay in space and strip mine planets for resources as needed (https://www.sinsofasolarempire.com/)"...
Only if you hack too much time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=72RqpItxd8M#t=58). It can't be too far in the future, since all the technology still has to be believable, but there's lots of material to draw from cutting-edge science from the past 20 years since OP1/OP2.
The only thing that'd enforce survival mode/conflict at that point would be a large-scale threat, though.
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So once your a thousand years into the future and super "sciencey" than regular survival should be something technologically surpassed. The only large scale threat would be an Alien presence ala Mass Effect. Correct?
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So once your a thousand years into the future and super "sciencey" than regular survival should be something technologically surpassed. The only large scale threat would be an Alien presence ala Mass Effect. Correct?
Setting it 1000 years in the future would be hacking too much time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg&feature=youtu.be&t=608) and the level of technology would be more beyond our comprehension than the internet would be to someone 200 years ago. I wouldn't go that far, since this is Outpost and everything needs to be backed up by science.
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Okay, never seen that video before. Totally Rad, best thing that's happened to me today, and I got laid.
Side note - I want that freaking glove.
... wait, why the hell did he need a glove to type?
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Kung Fury (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg) is quite good, and the Power Glove (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZErvASwdlU) is so bad, but we're getting off topic here.
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Okay let me pose this question.
It feels to me like they should have been on that planet longer, much longer than what I assume to be less than 10 years (maybe it says some where in the official novellas or in the game itself, I honestly don't know) as the colonist size should be much higher and have a much broader base of colonists (more workers, more scientists) to mine resources, assemble and then test and launch a goddamn starship. Not to mention complete a damn skydock in space.
I'm guessing they should have been there long enough to at least birth and raise a third generation of children to mid teens by the launch window of the second Starship.
So what with mass breeding regimes say 600-700 colonists? Or would it require more time to achieve those numbers? Wait how many landed on New Terra in the first place off the first starship?
To what ends this line of questioning you ask? Not sure, I'll think of something.
Okay, so it's clear I need more numbers before I start making wild theories. Piss on it, I'm going to anyways.
Thoughts?
P.S. - Maybe total numbers, I guess, would determine if they make a starship that soars across the galaxy, or just to a neighboring planet in the local system to allow time to create two or three starships, or perhaps maybe ONE BIG ASS SHIP to ferry everyone away. I say they have large numbers, but time restrictions and ore resources, or the misinformation of resources allows two ships to be built but at two different times.
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The two characters in the novella from Earth are both in their mid-40's, and they were young when they woke up. Counting the original colonists, that's probably time enough for 3 or 4 generations to go by (from Earth - all dead save two; their children - older and "running" the colony; their children - young and doing day-to-day grunt work; their children (maybe) - all toddlers/young children). I'd say they've been on New Terra anywhere from 30 to 40 years by the time the game starts.
However, regarding population, keep in mind the in-game numbers may not actually match up to how many people are alive "in the story". Also remember that the colonists split into two groups, and then both of those groups suffered a major disaster. When the Eden lab blows, there's a comment about "half the town" being in there (and dying in the explosion). It's possible more died during the evacuation (this could be overthinking it, but notice how the Evacuation Transports in the first mission are loaded with "Colonists", but there are still people around running your colony's structures...). We never hear anything about any Plymouth casualties but I think it's safe to assume not everyone made it out of the unexpected volcano suddenly erupting underneath them.
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Frankly it'd make more sense to not have all the factions somehow end up all colonizing the exact same planet (especially with the galaxy being as huge as it is). Alcubierre warp drive is (slightly) closer to a reality than half the things in OP2, you could have the game set across multiple planets and I'd say it'd still be hard sci-fi.
Sure, one could keep them in distinct planet settings I guess and have the colonies each develop in their own different directions under various challenges.
Or randomly come into contact/dispute with the other factions somehow. (Or only in multiplayer)
Sirbomber - did you play Sins of a Solar Empire ? Good game ?
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Yeah, Sins is pretty good. A single game can take a very long time though, especially if you're not playing on a small map.
We could say "both colonies survive and go their separate ways and meet up again later" but, as Arklon mentioned before, space is huge*. Unless they're both actively looking for each other, the odds of that happening without some major advances in deep-space travel are pretty low.
* - That means it has huge guts (http://www.doomworld.com/10years/doomcomic/comic.php?page=3)!
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Here's something else I just thought of
So every once and awhile I'll see things about redundancy, like "we are going to do two of the exact same thing so if one fails there is still a chance of success"
Lets say Earth had the resources to send up two or more ships, North America, Europe and Russia. Three different ships. Follow? Good. (Fine, it could also be China or Japan, racing stripes with a big Type R sticker on the side of the ship. There, happy?)
Logically the major powers of Earth are still going to communicate with each other up until the time of launch or, right until the Asteroid strikes. Things like "hey what ya buildin, where ya goin?" So the where ya goin kinda of comes down to most recent long term deep space research, giving that only one or two maybe in reach, the closest system with largest chance of success is going to be the destination of choice, ergo all three nations fly there. But, different ships, different speeds, say one arrives first, the second breaks down, and the third arrives later.
And now that I've gotten this far in the post I am not really sure where I was going... gimme a minute.
Right, so say the first ship, the Conestoga figured out where they were supposed to go and were not too far off the mark, or the system they are in had a few planets and they just landed on the wrong one. Here's where it gets interesting, maybe not enough for another full game, but this would have made for a decent expansion pack to Outpost2.
The third ship lands on an adjacent planet orbiting the New Terra sun, the Eden ship finds it, makes its way over and lands. Old ship meets new ship yada yada yada New Terra breaks apart and pieces fly towards this planet and one lands on the new planet spreading the blight. Both colonies now have to work together to get the hell out of the solar system.
Good? Good. Lets start coding a game. By which I mean you people. ... I can't code.
...at all
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Leeor/dave_erald: why would we flame you for talking theory about a game we're all here to talk about? Go ahead and make another OP3; I won't stop you. I will be jaded and cynical about it, however. :P
Well, I just don't want anybody to think that this is the start of an Outpost 3 project and then start seeing the cynical side of things.
Good? Good. Lets start coding a game.
So moving on.
why wouldn't you just pack shit up and go to Mars?
The asteroid that hit Earth perturbed its orbit enough to destabilize the gravitational orbit of the rest of the solar system. Being as unpredictable as it was, Mars was no longer an option because 1) its orbit would now be erratic and could end up either getting way too close to the Sun or way too far away and 2) the destabilization could affect the asteroid belt causing untold havoc on all terrestrial bodies in the solar system.
Setting it 1000 years in the future would be hacking too much time and the level of technology would be more beyond our comprehension...
This is assuming, of course, that technology has progressed at all. What of the possibility of the starship just taking that long to get anywhere (which would be about right in terms of interstellar travel). But, that being the case, it wouldn't matter how much time had passed, it could have been 10 years or 10,000 years, no progress would have been made while they're still in stasis.
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In the words of Fallout Universe, "War, war never changes" and I'd like to add to that "humanity never changes either or learns anything from history".
In all likeliness, the new colony ship would fly to somewhere else, have politic strife, and 1+ new factions would erupt from it. Humanity is fairly typical; even when in a survival situation, we are more inclined to fight and bicker amongst ourselves than cooperatively work together towards a brighter and better future. I'd feel this would be inevitable as whichever colony that survived "decided" to "save the children" of the other faction (children I might add that have likely been indoctrinated from birth to wholly believe in their faction to the point where they might decide to resurrect said faction at an opportune time).
I know that is a bit cliché or trope-ish, but humanity is unfortunately fairly predictable. It is true that many humans would prefer to cooperate and work towards a brighter and better future, but most of those humans never get into power and leadership and the ones that do, prefer war, greed, destruction, and selfishness over cooperation. Would that make for a bad story? I dunno.
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I know that is a bit cliché or trope-ish, but humanity is unfortunately fairly predictable.
You make a valid point. We are very predictable and despite my hoping/wishing we would be enlightened enough to stop repeating the same mistakes over and over and that everybody would only be interested in improving themselves (Star Trek comes to mind), humans really are just apes barely out of the jungle. Let's face it, we're very good and finding bigger and better sticks and stones to throw at each other and hit each other with.
-sigh-
Welp, that would make it easier to reboot the series or just continue the story though still there's the whole blight/savant thing from OP2 that for me is too weird. If I were to continue the story that whole thing would just be talked about as stories told by parents to their children.
Come to think of it, that right there could very well be the way that you end up with two or more factions. The ones that remember the winning side and those that remember it the other way around. Could even throw in a faction that wants to repeat the same mistakes only they think they solved the problems (reminds me a bit of Final Fantasy 6's basic story of magic, how it was lost and how the Empire is now relearning how to use it only they're doing it by killing Espers and it ultimately leads to the destruction of their world). It's a trope. It's been done 1000 times in 1000 different genres in 1000 different mediums though. Not sure how it would be different or interesting. Kind of a drab story really when I start to think about it.