Outpost Universe Forums

Off Topic => General Interest => Debate => Topic started by: jcj94 on March 21, 2011, 10:39:43 PM

Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on March 21, 2011, 10:39:43 PM
I belive that I can set a watch for maps, that allow us to check and see how long a mine has been in a specific place.  That way, we might be able to "trick" op2 into thinking the ore grade went down.  That or just spontaniously destroy and rebuild the mine, but change the bar number to -1 from its current (unless it is a one, then It'd just stay there.)

No matter if it can be done ore not, would you guys like it?



I'm sorry if I put in ORE instead of OR.  It's not my fault I can't sleep.  It's this game that I found, called Outpost 2.  Yeah its addicting.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Spikerocks101 on March 21, 2011, 10:50:40 PM
actually, ore does degrade on its own, untill it hits a minimal point
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on March 21, 2011, 10:55:19 PM
Quote
actually, ore does degrade on its own, untill it hits a minimal point
I mean like huge physical bar sizes.  Not like yeild ammounts.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: CK9 on March 22, 2011, 12:44:27 AM
Personally, I found it rather boring that ore hit a minimum and continued on forever.  It took away from the concept that there were only enough resources for one starship in my opinion.  If you do go ahead with the idea, make a test map for everyone to try out (multiplayer would probably be faster than a single player map).  That way, we can see if it adds or detracts from the game overall.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Spikerocks101 on March 22, 2011, 01:10:31 AM
Is it possible to make the process just more extreme? I.e. the starting amount (when you first find it) stays the same (be it around 100 ore), and it just goes up to an amount twice as high (be it 500+ ore), but it just has a super long decay to 0 ore.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: TH300 on March 22, 2011, 05:49:48 AM
I think that ore degradation would drastically change gameplay (probably in a positive way). And it would fit better to the novella. Tactics like mass-produce-tigers would no longer work, people couldn't stop getting new mines at some point and maybe building 3 smelters per mine would no longer pay off. It could even lead to battles for ore locations. I also imagine missions like Dangerzone, where there would be a point in building on ore mines near the blight spawning point, because the ore is urgently needed.

On the other hand I like the original Outpost2 without such modifications. I'm just used to it, I played the campaign in that game and that means a lot to me. If you want degrading ore, please make a campaign with it first and allow me to get used to it.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Zardox Xheonov on March 22, 2011, 08:25:06 AM
if it means no mass produce tigers and no triple smelter... then im all for it.
 
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Arklon on March 22, 2011, 09:06:13 AM
Changing the yield of the beacon underneath a mine after the mine has been built may or may not change the output from the mine. If not, then you'll need to do some hackery to get it to work.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 23, 2011, 01:34:13 PM
I think, that when i start recoding the op2:eom project i will implement this into it. though, i can easily achieve the same effect with the mines.txt all i have to do is make the truckloads variable a high number and lower the lowest ore point to 5(so a mine still has SOMETHING to provide :P
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: TH300 on March 23, 2011, 02:13:22 PM
Quote
I think, that when i start recoding the op2:eom project i will implement this into it. though, i can easily achieve the same effect with the mines.txt all i have to do is make the truckloads variable a high number and lower the lowest ore point to 5(so a mine still has SOMETHING to provide :P
You could change these values and the game would change accordingly. But that would be a general change for all missions. There is no way to load different sheets for only one mission (unless some of the coders around here add it to the game).
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 23, 2011, 02:15:29 PM
good point. hmm... well IF i could figure out how i could try to force the .DLL to load a separately named sheet. BUT that is well beyond my current abilities right now.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on March 23, 2011, 04:07:52 PM
The thing is,

How fast do we want the ore?
   Every 150 marks?
   Every 300 marks?
   Maybe every 500 marks, for REALLY long LoS games?

And My idea would drop it down only to a one bar after so long, but eventually you would want to move on to try and get more ore.


I need these inputs in order to make the Trial multiplay map.

   1: You guys' opinion on how fast to degrade
   2: Myself testing what happens if you change the ore bar underneath the mine
   3: People to be on mIRC so that I can call for problems, naimly TH300 and Spikerocks, and everyone once in a while ECC
    4: for you guys to hopefully learn how to do it so we can revamp some colony game with this style of work

Note that, if this is succesful, I won't put an AI in it.  This isn't to say that I don't wan't an AI, I just don't want it to mess with things.
 
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 23, 2011, 05:09:25 PM
no, not after marks, after truckloads. that insures that a 3bar mine made at mark 499 dosn't get downgraded right after construction

i say after about 100 truckloads it go's down. trust me when i say it can only fill about 3 smelters with that many truckloads. though i still need to actually TEST that.
 
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on March 23, 2011, 07:55:05 PM
Is there even a way to count truckloads?

I mean, if the trucks aren't special in anyway, then they're is no way of telling.. is there?

 
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 23, 2011, 09:20:28 PM
actually, if you where to read the mines.txt you would find that in fact the game counts truckloads and ore degenerates to a percentage of some in-game variable.
op2 is amazing for the shear fact that it keeps track of more data then many of us even realize. that and how easy it is to modify it EVEN without the source code.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Sirbomber on March 24, 2011, 09:19:37 AM
Quote
i say after about 100 truckloads it go's down. trust me when i say it can only fill about 3 smelters with that many truckloads. though i still need to actually TEST that.
Yes, let's just pick arbitrary values and hope for the best.  Also, we should take your word for it, even though you're not sure of it yourself?  What?

Anyways, hasn't this idea been discussed 14135 times, and nobody wanted it because last time I checked this isn't Starcraft?  If you want to play around with resource expansions go play that game.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Zardox Xheonov on March 24, 2011, 09:58:17 AM
Quote
Quote
i say after about 100 truckloads it go's down. trust me when i say it can only fill about 3 smelters with that many truckloads. though i still need to actually TEST that.
Yes, let's just pick arbitrary values and hope for the best.  Also, we should take your word for it, even though you're not sure of it yourself?  What?

Anyways, hasn't this idea been discussed 14135 times, and nobody wanted it because last time I checked this isn't Starcraft?  If you want to play around with resource expansions go play that game.
that is a good point, what really makes a difference between op2 and sc is the fact that resources do not completly dimminish (at least not entirely) over time.

But another arguement is the fact that minerals and ores do infact deminish and arent renewable.

So what will it be? Keep op2 realistic or keep to our old themes?

I also know most of our veteran members have harsh relationships to change. Im guessing they want to preserve the game they value.

But whoms to say we can't keep both copies like we do with different release versions of the game?

If sombody with alot of experiance could answer these questions, we might be seeing results.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 24, 2011, 11:02:58 AM
renegades was developed with the idea of pushing players to their limits. i want to do the same but from another angle.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Spikerocks101 on March 24, 2011, 12:08:31 PM
Quote
Quote
i say after about 100 truckloads it go's down. trust me when i say it can only fill about 3 smelters with that many truckloads. though i still need to actually TEST that.
Yes, let's just pick arbitrary values and hope for the best.  Also, we should take your word for it, even though you're not sure of it yourself?  What?

Anyways, hasn't this idea been discussed 14135 times, and nobody wanted it because last time I checked this isn't Starcraft?  If you want to play around with resource expansions go play that game.
When playing LOS or LR, then yeah, people don't have time to expand, but when playing Space Race or Suriver, even thou people usually need to relocate cause of blight, this could also encourage them to go about doing this. Non the less, if it's been talked about 2^20 time, why hasn't there ever been a map made?
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 24, 2011, 12:56:32 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
i say after about 100 truckloads it go's down. trust me when i say it can only fill about 3 smelters with that many truckloads. though i still need to actually TEST that.
Yes, let's just pick arbitrary values and hope for the best.  Also, we should take your word for it, even though you're not sure of it yourself?  What?

Anyways, hasn't this idea been discussed 14135 times, and nobody wanted it because last time I checked this isn't Starcraft?  If you want to play around with resource expansions go play that game.
When playing LOS or LR, then yeah, people don't have time to expand, but when playing Space Race or Suriver, even thou people usually need to relocate cause of blight, this could also encourage them to go about doing this. Non the less, if it's been talked about 2^20 time, why hasn't there ever been a map made?
simply put?
A) requires more coding then most people are willing to add to a mission
B) most of the coders willing to make extended code are usualy agaist ideas such as this
C) humanity is based around self image. we usually go with the crowd. this particular crowd says no.

that sum up why?
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: BlackBox on March 24, 2011, 05:32:36 PM
Doing this for a particular mission probably wouldn't be that difficult. There is a counter for "number of truckloads" as well.

I wouldn't suggest that it be done for every mission though, just certain ones. (That could be interesting).
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 24, 2011, 06:27:39 PM
such as doing it after the story line says 'limited ore in this region' ?
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on March 24, 2011, 07:11:55 PM
That AND spacerace/ survivor missions.  I also am working on an IDEA for a larger map that, because of ore decreasing, will force the players to move to the middle to fight for some ore and get the Wreckage.  

I have often wonderd, if you were allied, would their be a way to set a trigger so you can share that tech with allies?  I mean, you are all fighting for the same thing, why not give your team that kind of advantage?
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 24, 2011, 07:44:46 PM
COULD be done but it would lead to ply-eden teams pairing and becoming unstoppable. also, newbies would end up on the losing side by not learning HOW to get that thors tech and such. another downfall would be one player dose all the research in a game then allies with other people JUST for the technological leap
EDIT: that was the cons. here are the pros:
I teach new players. having this kind of thing in a select multiplayer game would allow me the slowly teach them the basics at a pace i can bare. when i was working with shadow(subbed74) i had MUCH difficulty in telling him what to do to get what results. this would quicken the process and allow for a slightly higher member influx. another pro is that a new strategy would be born between players allowing ply-eden colonies to finally be matched by themselves. YES i realize that ply-eden already exist, but four player matches are dieing at the moment.

my two cents
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on March 24, 2011, 08:05:02 PM
Quote
my two cents
and a constructive two cents at that...

but I have a sixth cents that people aren't going to like the ore degeneration.

I just want them to realize that:

BUT CHANGE == GOOD || BAD

otherwise proggramming speak for Change can equal good or bad.  It depends on several factors.

1:  The map itself
2:  The number of players
3:  How many beacons are on the map.
4:  What type of beacon degrades.  Just common?
5:  How many truckloads does it degrade after?
6:  How many people "ore hover" and guard ore deposits
7:  How many people like "superhuge" bases
8:  How many people like to "multibase"

Those factors, and disasters on, would make it a bit more realistic to the story line as I read it.

In my opinion I think something similar should have been done with MOST of the Land Rush maps.  Just think about it, your rushing for the best ore deposits, but this would add not just the best, but the MOST ore deposits.

 
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Spikerocks101 on March 24, 2011, 09:41:44 PM
jcj... STAY ON TOPIC! Please, your posts are very spammy.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on March 24, 2011, 10:06:39 PM
For the whole "trying to make it like starcraft" I don't intend to do that.  What I want is a more tied down way to the storyline.  They had to keep moving or else they'd 1, die, and 2, run out of resources.  I think SLOWLY degrading the bar #, like every 1000 truckloads or some thing would work.  

I just wish to add MORE micromanagement to the game.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on March 24, 2011, 11:07:47 PM
op1 sported diminishing resources. i think if we make select missions have that(but many spot of which to utilize) then complaints will be minimal
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on March 25, 2011, 02:23:01 PM
Look up 4 posts.  That should sum it up.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: TH300 on March 25, 2011, 04:00:06 PM
If you want to do this, do it right or don't do it. Ore degration should be based on truck loads, not on mark. The player should get a message when ore yield is decreasing. And ore routs must continue to work without rerouting of trucks.

If all these conditions are met, there are chances that I like it. (I won't be able to play before I actually played it)
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Spikerocks101 on March 25, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
Well, any one wanna get started on this? Record some data, like how many truck loads and such, and see what the best choice of action will be.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: TH300 on March 25, 2011, 06:29:24 PM
The first thing to do would really be to find out how to add this to the game. I don't think, it'll be easy.

Side note: I always like how some people post ideas/suggestions, before they know how to implement them into the game.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Spikerocks101 on March 25, 2011, 06:31:43 PM
Which brings me back to my post, "Any one want to get started on this?". I, personally, don't really care to do it, since I am not in the map making business.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on April 01, 2011, 04:35:25 PM
TH300, the reason we post before we do is we don't want to make something no one will use / download / enjoy.


And I believe there IS a way to do truckloads, I am just unsure if it will crash the game or not when switching the ore out from underneath it.

And IF I do the ore beacon change under it, it will be a LOT simpler because you won't need to re-route trucks.

 
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Highlander on April 04, 2011, 05:05:11 AM
I like the idea of degenerating mines.

As a start one could keep mines as they are today, where you get a quick peak before it drops down to a certain level (where it stays forever). From that level you could get a slow decrease down to 10-15-20'ish ore per truckload. (Mines in real life is rarely completely exhausted, they just become unprofitable to run I think)


Personally I'd like to think if you combined the decreasing ore with some alterations(increase) in high tech unit costs, one would see a very different scenario when it comes to battles than what you see today (=Mass spamming of best units and forces meets head on in battles of attrition). This way it would be possible to weigh many cheaper units vs a few high tech units. And other tactics would be of higher significance (Unit movements, Walls, GP's.. etc)


With this change, the unused Midas and Resource Race might also be viable game options ?



If one decided to make this change or to test it - why not just make an "expansion" or how one would define it - where you could just create a 2nd copy of OP2 and have these changes in a modified version, while still having the original OP2 on the side..
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: Sirbomber on April 04, 2011, 08:38:17 AM
Your idea would be easier Highlander, as it wouldn't require too much (or any?) coding and just extensive modification of the sheets.

I mean, I think.  I haven't looked at mines.txt too much.
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on April 04, 2011, 12:48:24 PM
I was JUST thinking of useing some sort of 'angled armor' tech.  It would reduce ALL or, most, unit costs, because, as anyone familiar with war would know, if you angle the steel 60 degrees, than you effectivly DOUBLE the amount of steel that the bullet/projectile is actually going through.  And if you doulbe the effectiveness, you can halve the wieght.  That way you can increse speed and so forth.  Things would go down by about 200 ore for GP's and buildings and 300 for vechs.

 
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on April 04, 2011, 01:07:50 PM
Ok, i edit the mines.txt on a regular basis. I'll make a mod for you all to test. i hope to achive the following:
1bar mines
extended - Slowly peaks at large quantity and has very small bust

2bar mines
stable - small quick peak and small slow bust

3bar mines
quick - slowly peaks and quickly busts to very low amount

magma mines
usable - peaks and dose not bust

this would make players in quick games run for the 2-3 bar mines wile in longer games a 1 bar mine would ensure survival. it also makes magma vents usable
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on April 04, 2011, 04:35:01 PM
Could you make it so that after the degraision that it turns into the production of the next level down (so a 3 bar would "become" a two bar, and after a little while longer it also "becomes" a 1 bar) so that way they all end up BECOMING either the equivilant of a 1 bar, and making you either expand, or micro-manage moving.

I can see that now:
Colonist: "Time to pack up honey, we gotta get more minerals and a job"
Enemy Commander: "Destroy that new colony!"
Savant: "You have done well, your colony is doomed, however, you can always just put another $0.25 in and play again.  Have a nice day!"
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: evecolonycamander on April 05, 2011, 12:03:45 AM
wile i can not change the bar image i can simulate the degrading ore so that the idea of finding/monopolizing the 3bar is no longer a profitable option and 1bar mines actualy produce quantities that Eden can use
Title: Ore Degeneration?
Post by: jcj94 on April 05, 2011, 10:52:19 AM
That would be appricieated by anyone (including me) who likes eden but ends up getting stuffed with a bunch of 1/2 bar ore fields.