Outpost Universe Forums
Community => Feedback/Suggestions/Problems => Topic started by: Sirbomber on May 18, 2010, 11:56:59 PM
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So, lately some spelling issues have gotten certain members upset at certain other members. Those who dislike "egregious" spelling errors argue that the Internet is not an excuse to butcher the English language. Others complain of Grammar Nazism and "trouble" with spelling and feel discriminated against.
So, what should we do about this? The "Forum Etiquette (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=4806)" thread asks users to use proper spelling and grammar, though some have complained about this.
There are a few issues here: is this a rule or a suggestion? If it's a rule, should it be enforced, and if so how? In which cases? Should violating this rule be punishable? Hopefully you all think that's a little extreme for dealing with crappy spelling, but moving on... Are there any times when bad spelling is okay (disabilities, non-native speakers, etc.)?
For the most part, people have been correcting particularly bad spelling, though this has sparked some minor flame wars. The "pro-spelling" side argues that bad spelling is annoying, spammy, and inconvenient for everyone else on the forum. A person who spells poorly inconveniences everyone else on the forum and doesn't care because "it's not English class". The counter-argument is that there's no need for perfect spelling here as long as the general idea can be communicated. Those who nitpick over every little spelling mistake are jerks picking on the guy who can't spell well.
So, what should we do about this? It's been suggested that if we spot a spelling/grammar mistake we PM the person in question, though that inevitably leads to that person getting spammed with messages telling them the difference between "does" and "dose". However, this would avoid publicly embarrassing people, but somehow I doubt that's the real issue here. Personally, I think by pointing out these errors we're doing people a favor, because if you can't spell worth a crap, with or without spellcheck, well...
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If you cannot spell, you should seriously learn to. Its not like you won't need it in your later life. If you have a disability with it or are a non-native-speaker, thats a valid excuse. But everyone else should keep in mind that non-native speakers will have trouble understanding bad english. And since this place is international, we have lots of non-native speakers.
Hence, we need some minimum spelling quality and that should be enforced unless someone has a valid excuse for bad spelling.
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If people suffer from dyslexia or are non-native english speakers, I don't really mind.
English isn't the native language of many of the people here, so level of knowledge of the language and correct spelling will of course differ.
(That being said, I probably owe a good deal of my English skills to interactions on the web - read WON and IRC, where I have been corrected due to spelling errors)
Pointing out spelling/grammar errors in separate posts seem to have the tendency of breaking the line of thinking of the topic though and people seem stray off topic.
Some people seem to be the target more than others when it comes to spelling errors and attracting attention due to it than others though..
Then again, some of the people in the past that has had problems with spelling has actually put it in their signatures and thus avoided being flamed to the same degree as others have.
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WHY do i feel that this is directed at me...
edit: i just saw and now im certain. hey at least its a topic now. lol
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Because you feel as if you're the centre of the world.
You just triggered this topics existance, but you're not the only one who spells poorly.
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as another of the notorious bad spellers... (although i now have Fire Fox on my lap top :P)
we know from another thread around here some where that we only need the first and last letters correct and the other letters of the same sound to under stand the meaning in context...
i believe we should accept "SOME" spelling errors (e.g. to, too, two or therfor) words that are easy to read aloud and figure out the meaning, on the other hand words that can't be figured out by phonics (a common way to spell if you don't know how) or context should be PM with a question on what the word means and to ask that the post be edited...
Then again, some of the people in the past that has had problems with spelling has actually put it in their signatures and thus avoided being flamed to the same degree as others have.
just noticed this :P
also a good idea if you know you can't spell good enough to pass a spelling natzi attack
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I tend to tolerate bad spelling when it's harder words to spell or if it's obvious typos. However, when the words being mispelled are some of the easiest words to spell correctly, it shows me that ther person doesn't care enough to even attempt to get words right, and therefore has wasted my time because their post has lost all porpose.
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If it's a difficult/less-commonly known word, it's completely understandable. I do that all the time. If it's a simple mix-up (to, two, too, et la) then, yes it's annoying because we should have all learned those years ago, but the general meaning comes across.
Howevr, wehn ether letters are randmly droppd or the person just cant spel the word i seruosly questchun there inteligince.
Now, dyslexia is understandable. My best friend growing up had dyslexia. I can read dyslexia. Laziness is not understandable. If you absolutely have no idea how to spell the word, get spellcheck. Seriously, every browser has a way of spell-checking. Firefox and Chrome do it automatically, IE has the Google Toolbar, and I don't know the others anymore.
If that fails, get a word processor. www.openoffice.org if you can't pay for Word.
I think that poor spelling should work in a similar fashion as flaming for punishment. If it's every few posts, or just difficult/commonly misspelled words I don't care. If it's every or almost every post, it's time for some correct action. Yes, this is a small community, but I'd rather not see it go to s*** because a few people are too lazy to grab a dictionary.
Now, as for non-native... English seems to be a common language here. I am not new to internet communities, and have met a lot of foreign speakers. Obviously, if you speak absolutely no English, there's gonna be some problems. But that's work-able. Bastardizing English is just another language barrier to pass. If English isn't your first, at least try to work on it. If it is your first, I see no reason/excuse for terrible spelling.
Note: Signatures and tacking notes saying "I don't care" or "Sorry" "about spelling" don't cut it.
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If German were used rather than English as the "international" language, then spelling would be even more important than it is right now. There are many words in German that are spelt similarly but have meanings that are so vastly different that the point changes (example: Hast = have, hasst = hate; "du hast der panter" versus "du hasst der panter")
I'm sure this is true of other languages...
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In Chinese, the tone can completely change the meaning, never mind the pronounciation. Examples:
妈妈骂马。Māma mà mǎ. (Mother scolds the horse).
Same basic pronounciation for each character, but different tone for each.
Or perhaps this mistake I heard once:
我很喜欢中国的人。wǒ hěn xǐhuan zhōng guó de rén. (I like Chinese people).
我恨喜欢中国的人。wǒ hèn xǐhuan zhōng guó de rén. (I hate people who like China).
As for spelling on the forums, I do appreciate when people take the time and effort to spell correctly. I find spelling errors really detract from what is being said. Plus, they may be very difficult for a non-native speaker to figure out. You can't look up a word if it's spelt wrong.
In the business world it would be very bad practice to not pay attention to spelling. It makes you look unprofessional, and people won't be as comfortable doing business with you. I have personally seen vendors dismissed from consideration for fairly large contracts simply because of a single spelling error. The same general feeling extends elsewhere. If you want to be taken seriously, you should take the effort to try and do things right. Also, constantly apologizing for the same thing looks bad. If there is a problem, people expect you to take corrective measures in fairly short order, not simply keep apologizing for the problem. If you recognize there is a problem, then you should do something about it.
Now granted, this isn't the business world, some people don't speak English natively, disabilities are a possibility, and typos happen. As such I think there should be some degree of tolerance. However, it's easier to tolerate a mistake when it's not happening repeatedly. If you've been corrected on a word, then try not to keep spelling it wrong in future posts. If something appears to be a typo I usually just ignore it (unless it's particularly funny). If it's just plain bad spelling, and the person doesn't know it, I guess I kind of like the idea of the mistake getting corrected. Gently. Everyone makes mistakes. If you're too hostile about correcting someone then they get defensive which will impede learning. I believe learning, and generally seeking to improve yourself to be a noble goal that everyone should strive for.
As for quick spell checks, I sometimes use google. If you're not sure about a word, do a google search, and see if it corrects you (and that the results are valid, and in the expected language). It's easy, quick, and requires no real forethought or effort installing things ahead of time. Or you could just use a paperback dictionary if you keep one handy by the computer. I actually frequently use a paperback dictionary to check my spelling before posting, and usually re-read most of what I've written to check for obvious grammar flaws.
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A few years back, someone at my university was in the final stages of getting a job, but then was dropped because they typed up an email to check on the status and used weather instead of whether. If you begin practicing good spelling in the fun areas of your internet use, then you are more likely to avoid errors that could be disasterous to your professional life in the other areas of your internet use.
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My thoughts on spelling are the following.
I don't really see that using perfect spelling and grammar are mandatory. If everyone can understand your message then I think it's fine. (If someone can't understand it due to spelling, then it should be corrected, the topic should not devolve into a flame war over relative spelling and grammar abilities of forum members or whatever).
This being said, your ability to spell correctly does to an extent reflect on your ability to formulate thoughts and whether people will respect you. If it's obvious that english is your first language / you can otherwise speak it fluently and you spell horribly like a preteen kid's text messages people are going to tend to ignore you or pay less attention to what you have to say.
As already mentioned, if you are using ridiculous shorthand like you would while texting or kids back in the AOL days did, that's not going to make you look any better. ("lol y r u makng such a big deal out of this" kind of stuff)
If english isn't your first language, mentioning that it's not can help people understand.
In any case -- flaming people or otherwise derailing a topic over spelling/grammar is not allowed. If you can't understand it that's one thing, mention that in your post (in a constructive manner, not "your grammar and spelling is s***ty so fix it NOW so I can read your post") so the author can edit the post, but making a big deal out of it when the meaning was obviously understandable is not. Users who frequently violate this rule will face measures anywhere from deletion of the offending posts to moderator preview or tempbanning from certain forums or the whole site.
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As Hooman said before, it helps to read your post before submitting it. I rarely do this, but if you look at my posts, most of them are edited. I always reread it after to check a few things.
1. Is it in the right thread?
2. Did I miss a page of the thread?
3. Typos?
There is no shame in having that 'This post has been edited' at the bottom.
And honestly I didn't mind the misspellings so much, it was annoying but tolerable. But what ticked me off was just saying sorry for spelling.
I think you guys are giving him too much flack for this. I looked at a forum I went to when I was like 14, and it seemed like my shift key was broken. It was a pain to read, so make sure to capitalize when necessary.
EDIT: There is a plugin for IE called ieSpell. Can't hurt to test it out.
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im going to take that as your defending me but at the same time saying "GET A DICTIONARY DAMMIT!!!"
edit: hooman i thought the forum censered that word... or is it one of my famous typos?
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What word? ... and it's "censored". :P
It's mostly just a few really bad words that are censored. That and converting the name of a certain blue and frequent spam offering to "I am a bot, ban me", along with a few corrections for frequent "mess hall" mispellings. ;)
I suppose we can take measures into our own hands for spelling mistakes, but it gets kind of ridiculous pretty quick.
As Hooman said before, it helps to read your post before submitting it. I rarely do this, but if you look at my posts, most of them are edited. I always reread it after to check a few things.
Yes, you may notice many of my posts are edited too. I tend to re-read them before submitting them, and then again after submitting them. This often leads to additional corrections that were missed before hand. Actually, I've had a number of posts with 5 or 6 successive "just one quick fix"'s applied to them after being posted. If you're ever browsing the forums and happen to see me posting something large, maybe refresh it a few times and count how many times the last edited date gets updated.
But yeah, less flaming over spelling, and less apologizing.
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you will also sometimes see a post disappear when the wrong button is pressed :heh:
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wow f***ing really. If they cant spell they cant f***ing spell kindly offer them some alternative and find out if they have a problem with english dont do this f***ing bull s***. WHINE WHINE WHINE dont live with the spelling. but you all want to do what every other human does and follow the path of least resistance and be LEARN TO SPELL OR ILL SMITE YOU making fun of them ect. And before any one opens there mouth i have done it to. But i try not to. that simple act keep me from being a hipcrite so f*** off. ANY WAY.
Chinese is way to god damn confusing and there are llike 4 or 5 dielecs of it.
English isnt the superior language in the world its just used more because people that speak english feel entitled that every one else do so as well.
Offering some f***ing links or even a download on the site for a good translator and/or fire fox which has spell checking. Instead of just crying out get fire fox you f***ing retard.
believe it people you can fix this problem only if you try to help them not just sit back and hope some one else will come and try to fix it or enforce some rules that go againt and ostrisize these people from posting.
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i just came up with an idea that will give no one, including me, an excuse to say they don't have a spellchecker. all that is needed is a built in Spellchecker. Don't ask me how to do it though that's not my aria of expertise.
then again other then being stooooopid, do i have any expertise? :P
stupid is deliberately misspelled
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If you can find an IPB addin for that, then it will be considered, butI don't think we will be making one.
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ill look but no garentes
spell check dose not recognize the last word
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wow f***ing really. If they cant spell they cant f***ing spell kindly offer them some alternative and find out if they have a problem with english dont do this f***ing bull s***. WHINE WHINE WHINE dont live with the spelling. but you all want to do what every other human does and follow the path of least resistance and be LEARN TO SPELL OR ILL SMITE YOU making fun of them ect. And before any one opens there mouth i have done it to. But i try not to. that simple act keep me from being a hipcrite so f*** off. ANY WAY.
Chinese is way to god damn confusing and there are llike 4 or 5 dielecs of it.
English isnt the superior language in the world its just used more because people that speak english feel entitled that every one else do so as well.
Offering some f***ing links or even a download on the site for a good translator and/or fire fox which has spell checking. Instead of just crying out get fire fox you f***ing retard.
believe it people you can fix this problem only if you try to help them not just sit back and hope some one else will come and try to fix it or enforce some rules that go againt and ostrisize these people from posting.
This is a perfect example of how to do it wrong. All I got from reading the post once was the general idea, that people should complain less. I had to read it several times in order to understand the details and I'm still wondering if I got everything right. There are obviously some good points in your post, but the way you wrote it, you made it hard to understand.
And that is true for most of your posts :(
Unfortunately there are no browser plugins that check grammar, otherwise I'd give you a link.
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ill look but no garentes
spell check dose not recognize the last word
It's sad when you can bastardize a word so much that spell check can't read it.
It's 'guarantee' by the way.
@Freeza: I'm going to have to agree with TH300, most of that was lost to re-reading over and over.
If there's an IPB add-in to check spelling (which I think I've seen...), I don't know if our boards are up-to-date enough to use it.
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im going to take that as your defending me but at the same time saying "GET A DICTIONARY DAMMIT!!!"
That is how I meant it, maybe not shouting the second half though. You should try to get better, as it will help you in other areas such as school and when the time comes: a job.
Here is a download link for ieSpell since Freeza recommended I send you a link. Here. (http://www.iespell.com/download.php) CNET rated it as the second best plugin for IE, but I was unable to find out what number 1 was.
Yes, you may notice many of my posts are edited too. I tend to re-read them before submitting them, and then again after submitting them. This often leads to additional corrections that were missed before hand. Actually, I've had a number of posts with 5 or 6 successive "just one quick fix"'s applied to them after being posted. If you're ever browsing the forums and happen to see me posting something large, maybe refresh it a few times and count how many times the last edited date gets updated.
On another forum my signature was "Do not quote this post if it is less that 10 minutes old."
Also isn't there an option so it shows all the edit times, or the edit count?
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As yes, there are certain problems a spell checker won't pick up:
Don't ask me how to do it though that's not my aria of expertise.
Aria - n. air or rhythmical song in cantata, opera etc.
It should be "area of expertise".
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Aria - n. air or rhythmical song in cantata, opera etc.
+1 vocabulary
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Hooman is like a sponge: he soaks up the information and releases it for use at any time, heh
and yea, freeza, if you're going to try to make a point:
1) be less high school about it and more business presentation. If your points are burried in rant and cursing, very few people will find/care
2) refrain from name-calling. If you're insulting people, they will just go into defensive mode and ignore your points.
3) even if you try not to do something you speak against doing, the fact you do it still makes you a hypocrite. This is not something to worry about, though. Everyone is hypocritical about something. All we can do is wrok to keep working at it until we get the best control over it that is possible.
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Ok here is what I want to see.
1. All the links go in a thread by themselves. makes them easier to find instead of scouring this thread.
2. All suggested link should be checked for viruses or spyware no need to bring dismay to our people. And to keep it family safe if possible make sure there aint any bad material viewable or other wise on the site dont ask what it would be. Just use some common sense.
But in Hoomans post about the misspelling of Area. Do you see what I see. He was already aware that it was area. He could have dropped it. But instead he tryed to correct it. I realize this is because he was making a point about the checkers. But that is not always the case. Personally if you can translate it and the word isnt completely off what it should be then just let it go. I see no reason to cause a fuss about some thing that simple.
As for other things I wont post about them because its just pointless.
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It's easy to pass it by if there is a good reason for it or if it's a rare occurance. However, if it's just that the person isn't putting in the effort to spell, then I have a hard time leaving it alone. It's a lot like when something is said to be a pun when it isn't. It doesn't really matter, but it irks me enough that I have to say something or else I will go insane over it.
However, I agree with your points. If we expect these things to be used, we should make them easy to find and make sure they fit within our TOS before suggesting them. Do you have any suggestions as to what all we should consider placing in this thread? Should it just be spell checking tools/sites or should we include links to free translators that do a decent job?
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yes of course. translators as well.
Now I have to say lets NOT enforce people use it but strongly suggest it. There shouldnt be a rule that says you need to use it or else. That would be just plan silly.
I say if that bothers you that much maybe you need for find a better outlet for that frustration. because that is just kinda silly getting all crazy over a bunch of mispelled words on a random forum post. just my thought on that.
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Freeza, I downloaded the plugin, and scanned it with Avast and MBAM. Neither found anything with the latest updates.
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I'm not a native English speaker, but I try very hard to correct all my spelling and grammar mistakes. In fact, I probably hit 'preview post' about 7 times before actually posting something. (This post was previewed and edited 6 times, but I know that's a bit excessive for such a small post). I put a lot of effort into it. That's what makes it so frustrating if people that do know how to correctly speak English simply don't.
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Its great that you take the effort to do that And i know why it would be frustrating to see people misspell. But at the same times this is also just text. There isnt any way to really tell who is behind that computer with out asking and even then you dont know 100%. Which is why whining and complaining isnt the way to go about getting people to fix there spelling even if there is a way for them to do so. There may be language barrier there may be a mental or physical impedance involved to. And as such there isnt a need to drag it out in public for all to see. which is going to lead up to this. Let the admins/mods take care of the spelling issues we will see them and find out whats going on. There shouldnt be any vigilanties taking up the cause for great justice. This doesnt mean dont post links I mentioned in the last post I made. And if some one is still typing badly and we dont do any thing about then there is probably a good reason so dont worry about it.
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[...] There may be language barrier there may be a mental or physical impedance involved to. And as such there isnt a need to drag it out in public for all to see. [...] And if some one is still typing badly and we dont do any thing about then there is probably a good reason so dont worry about it.
Ah, I get what you mean now. It is true that if someone has 'a disability' or whatever, they should be able to be a part of a community and not have to tell anyone. Anonymity is a quintessential part of the web. (That's my first ever use of the word 'quintessential'. I do hope I applied it correctly. Otherwise, replace with 'essential'.)
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Were did we go wrong, where the hottest topic on the forums is spelling? -_-
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Well, would could switch to grammer and I can have some fun with your posts :P
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Well, would could switch to grammer and I can have some fun with your posts :P
Grammar*
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see? I put a huge grammerical error with a spelling one, and kayedon points out only the spelling one :P
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I've evolved to the point where my brain auto-corrects most "grammerical" errors. Incidentally, WELK UM 2 TE H ME S HA L. BLARY EUGH!
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see? I put a huge grammerical error with a spelling one, and kayedon points out only the spelling one :P
That was intentional. And I read past "would could" as "we could" because I saw the W and my brain auto-completed the word based upon the context. Does cause some problems, though. Anyways, something did look funny but the e is what I always look for.
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see? I put a huge grammerical error with a spelling one, and kayedon points out only the spelling one :P
That was intentional. And I read past "would could" as "we could" because I saw the W and my brain auto-completed the word based upon the context. Does cause some problems, though. Anyways, something did look funny but the e is what I always look for.
Then you are lucky. I didn't understand this sentence and was wondering if it is some construct that I didn't learn, yet.
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lol, I hard a hard time reading it too, and I typed it. However, this kind of shows why spelling gets targeted more often than anything else. Especially since kayedon and bomber tend to start it more often than everyone else :P
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lol, I hard a hard time reading it too, and I typed it. However, this kind of shows why spelling gets targeted more often than anything else. Especially since kayedon and bomber tend to start it more often than everyone else :P
Had a hard*
Just for you, TH300.
And sorry if I'm targeting, but TH300 is a perfect example right here of why proper or at least GOOD grammar/spelling is essential in this kind of community.
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Well, would could switch to grammer and I can have some fun with your posts :P
After figuring out you typed "would" instead of "we", I now wonder if you could take the pants of a person facing you, with out them noticing. CK9, you are a Grammar Nazi.
Oh, and btw, I think TH300 is a thousand times smarter then me, since he seems to read a sentence for each word, while I seem to read it as a whole.
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Or the world has lowered its standards enough to think it's preferable not to bother.
Uh, smart != intricate. Unless, of course, the use of intricacy was voluntary.
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Spike is racist! Calling me a Nazi! I'm going to get all the most influential and annoying anti-hate groups on your ass!!!
(In case you can't tell, I'm joking around because I am of German descent).
edit: just feel like it :P
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I was unaware that a doctrine could be equivalent to a race.
You being of German descent does not imply you joking around as the only possibility.
Long empty space in post feels spammei. (Obvious destruction of a word, intended)
Topic, where to?
Night poorly sleep... brain hurts.
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right...so you'd rather drag on about the falicies in your interpretation skills while sleep deprived than just laugh about a joke?
Well, if noone else has anything to add, I'll close this later tonight.
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alright i think we have come to a conclusion with this thread what do yall say.
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My sense of humor is pretty limited. Also, you (as well as anyone, really) are always welcome to explain where I go wrong in my interpretations (via PM, preferably).
As for the topic of the... topic, namely spelling and its importance, I would like to know if there is a general consensus about the point where one is allowed to become upset about someone's (horrible) spelling.
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I think the conclusion was that freeza thinks everyone who is doing the complaining is lame while those who do the complaining want the few people who show little effort in spelling to put forth the effort. In the end, the thread was futile because humans as a species are inherently stubborn against changing their ideals.
Or to put it simply, we've agreed to disagree
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Well with the spawn of recent semi topic posts of joking i pretty much figure its time to close th thread since we made it clean how we are going to take care of this and how we shouldnt take care of it.
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I think the conclusion was that freeza thinks everyone who is doing the complaining is lame while those who do the complaining want the few people who show little effort in spelling to put forth the effort. In the end, the thread was futile because humans as a species are inherently stubborn against changing their ideals.
Or to put it simply, we've agreed to disagree
well i have to say i AM giving my spelling a look over but i have never been good at it. i used to hate books and that is where my spelling/grammar issues spawned. also ck is right, humans are proven to be (as a whole) suborn against change, inherently lazy, and unorganized to the point of costing millions of lives in petty wars over the simplest of things like, religion, race, and ethnic backgrounds. then there is that occurrence when a person stands up in the riptide and changes the flow of the river to make things better. the people like that are in most cases find they are alone in that job and in a few even hated or hated by the general public.
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Not only are humans usually against changes to themselves/their lifestyle/etc, but they can easily turn aggressive when a change is insisted upon. Sort of why Greece has been in such bad shape these past weeks.
Also, I'm not a fan of books myself, mostly because I can't keep my attention active enough to actually get something out of a book. You just need to... use a language in all its "glory" if you want to learn it (and implicitly use it) properly. That's why international English tests, such as the Cambridge exams, IELTS, TOEFL, to name a few, are divided into categories, generally: reading, writing, listening and speaking.
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alright i think we have come to a conclusion with this thread what do yall say.
Yes, please lock it before it devolves into flaming.