Outpost Universe Forums
Outpost Series Games => Outpost 2 Multiplayer => Topic started by: acid101 on June 23, 2007, 03:48:15 PM
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After fair games of op2 , dont u think people complain too much that something was "cheap" or "HEY u broke that rule" or something? its only a game and were here to keep it alive so lets end this argueing thats causing newcomers too leave,op2 to be played less frequently , its tearing us apart!!
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Nah, we have less than games like SC but since there's more than one channel for those games you don't see it as much.
Besides, those arguements are built on our passion for OP2!
Edit: If you're referring to what I think you are, I wouldn't call that a "fair game of OP2".
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The arguments that I have seen in the past month generally are the more annoying "rule breaking"
or back stabbing (deliberate or not) in allied games.
The arguments are then from someone being very very annoyed at this backstabbing as it does tend to ruin the whole allied attack and defend scenario, which you put a lot of effort into building up.
Yes its only a game, but it can be a highly strategic one. Having the strategy that you spent a while developing in game broken( as well as your base defenses) by your supposed allies not thinking before they act is painfull to watch and understandably pisses you off.
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Edit:
There aren't many disagreements, and the ones that happen are usually well justified.
We just don't like them going on for too long in the main channel. Make your point then move on. You don't have to play them ever again if you don't want to, but with a small community its not always possible.
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Well from what i know there are certain people that are picking fights because it entertains them. And it always seems to happen between these two individuals.
Starfox and Tellaris (Baikon)
There Arguements are more like the bickering of old women and a pissing contest.
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Well from what i know there are certain people that are picking fights because it entertains them. And it always seems to happen between these two individuals.
Starfox and Tellaris (Baikon)
There Arguements are more like the bickering of old women and a pissing contest.
lol,I saw the post of ARES with them 2 fighting and bickering old women kinda fits ehh?
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This game has always caused quite a bit of rivalry between players. Nowadays I think it's rather healty, since noone can accuse someone else of cheating in the game. It simply boils down skill vs skill.
But if the fight gets out of hand in some way, or someone doesn't like it going on in the main channel, the contestants should probably move to a privat chat, or the Mods take some sort of action.
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I notice when people argue it usually involves the use of missiles... I think people just need to take it like it is and realize that they should have done something to stop the other player(s) from getting missiles.
In any case if someone breaks rules that were agreed upon before the start of the game, then you have a legitimate reason to call the player out for it. But that doesn't mean it should turn into a full scale argument lasting more than a few minutes. At that point it's not out of line for an op to do a kick, tempban, or kill if the players involved won't stop bickering.
As far as people complaining about cheap tactics... as far as I am concerned, anything goes unless you agree to not do it before the game. Of course, some tactics are a bit nasty but I think it boils down to, the player who is receiving this 'nasty' treatment should be able to fend off an incoming attack from another player. (in any form)
Arguing over the outcome of a game in general doesn't make sense to me. (It's just a game, if you don't like the outcome of the last match play another one). The only time any "confrontation" is legitimate is when a player is not playing by the agreed-upon rules of the game. Even then it shouldn't be drawn out for 30 minutes and the players should handle it properly (i.e. not typing in caps or swearing at other users)
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Med Defs or Counter missile
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First off I don't argue for the 'fun' I get enough s*** as it is. Second most if not all of the time any arguement is because someone broke a rule or did something that was a in sort of a grey aera.
As for all the people that say 'its just a game' - People argue because they get pissed, and some op2 games take a long time, like 2 hrs. for people who work about 30 hrs. a week and have school (which makes for some b****in' 14 hr. work days) like me playing a game for 2 hrs. and having some ass quit or pull some other BS its a little more than 'annoying'.
We need a concise, clear definition of ALL the rules, like the mutiplayer guidelines thread, except up-to-date and crystal clear (ie. replacement), and possibly an !rules command in IRC. Here is my suggestion for the rules, feel free to comment.
1. No cheating. This includes hacking the game (yes there ARE ways to do this, i've seen eden with stickyfoam in la corrida) or any glitces (see list below).
-Glitches
-a.The meteor defense bug, namely that any missile targeted on a MD will hit it, regardless of anything else. Fix: Never target a missile on a meteor defense or the pavement around it. Doing so is grounds for cheating.
-b. Using garages to bypass the vechile limit. This is done by putting vechiles in garages, where they are not counted by the vechile limit and allowing the player to bypass said limit. This also makes the game unstable. Fix: No more than three garages for any one player, since that is about the maximum one person can operate at a time.
-c. Trading vechiles to bypass the unit limit. You do this by trading vechiles to your partner, and since weather their at the unit limit or not you can keep trading them unlimited vechiles. This also made the game unstable. Fix: Don't trade units to people that are at the unit limit (they cant build any themselves).
-d. Invisible/invincible walls. If you emp an earthworker well its building a wall it will make an impassible square there (as if the earthworker was building the wall forever.) Fix: don't emp/destroy earthworkers while their working. If it happens on accident (attacked while building walls) theres not a whole lot you can do. Also you cant build around the impassible square so this bug is limited in its uses.
-d. Convec move build glitch. This is when you move a convec as its about to build, the structure will build itself on its own and the convec will still be loaded allowing you to build another structure. Fix: don't do it, and if you do it accidentally, dump the extra kit to keep the game fair.
-f. (suggestions? did i miss any?)
2. No quitting. Also you may not 'quasi-quit' by destroying/taking down your command center or other vital structures or not trying (ex: letting your people starve on purpose, not building any more units, etc.)
You may not quit unless:
-a. you do not have a working cc and don't have an ally that can give you one.
-b. you *have* to leave (REAL life stuff, like having a doctors appointment, and no lying about this please).
-c. Everyone agrees (that means *EVERYONE* in the game must actually say 'ok') that you can leave.
3. Follow the rules. The rules are ultimately set by the host, and everyone must agree.
-a. Saying 'I didn't agree' is not acceptable, you agreed by proxy when you clicked ready.
-b. Ignorance is also not an excuse, you should have paid attention, and you can always ask for the rules to be repeated.
4. *All* tactics are legal and fair *EXCEPT* the following:
-a. Scout rushing (the act of self destructing scouts in order to damage another player, usually before weapons are avalible)
-b. Guard post rushing (the act of building guard posts in another players base in order to kill them, again, also usually before weapons are avalible)
-c. Killing tubes (the act of using your earthworker to break tubes in the other persons base to hamper or disable them, as with the previous two also usually before weapons are avalible.)
-d. Advanced lab bomb (the act of putting an advanced lab next to another players vital structures and damaging it so it will explode spontaneously or when the offending player leaves.)
5. Do not break the connection between other players. This includes blocking people on hamachi, shutting off/unpluging your internet or changing your firewall's settings.
6. Do not drop people until *at least* 90 seconds have passed, possibly more, especially with the introduction of hamachi, since hamachi can loose its connection and reconnect and op2 will be fine (can take up to 10 minutes). Its a good idea to talk about the situation in IRC when someone is disconnected.
7. Don't backstab your ally. This doesn't really need an explanation, and its pretty sad it has to be here.
8. Once you have beaten someone do not let them linger. Kill them and end the game, waiting is humiliating to the looser and shows arrogance and general bad sportsmanship. ex: Waiting for a starflare tiger to move from your base to theirs is *not* acceptable.
9. Don't do that completely gay thing we just figured out how to do, its not nice. :P
EDIT: adding stuff
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yeah, Lately we have gotten a lot of people b****ing around after each game. I think we have all lost the reason why we are playing. We aren't playing to win, we are playing to have fun... I am a bit nostalgic of the old days when we were almost all noobs and we enjoyed a good game of OP2. Now it is like everyone wants to be like Leviathan or Paco or TheStarFlareMaster (lol) and no one wants to lose.... what's the point of playing if you are not ready to lose? I am always ready to lose...
Truth is because no one wants to lose and everyone wants to win, we are all not having fun and that's the main reason most people avoid playing now.
I just wish we could all play and have fun and after a game, not insult anyone. It is just a game, let's have fun. It is not like we will get a diploma for playing OP2.
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The only thing i hated multi on op2 was that another player builded vechs like crazy. I don't like playing like that... it is just, not multi. I played few games on multi and i'd always want to stay longer, to do some crazy stuff (alpha one....eeerm we left the GI's behind....)like in campaign. And no one does it that way. :(
Yes I am crazy :P
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Under Rules/Glitch Related:
No ConVec build and move exploitation. That is, don't do it on purpose, but if you do it accidentally, just have that ConVec dump it's cargo and wait for the building to finish. Though this shouldn't be a problem since most people probably don't know what I'm even talking about.
No transferring units to another player to get around the Vehicle Limit.
This is unlikely, but if you somehow find a terrain glitch that allows you to get to places you shouldn't be, don't exploit it. Just report it on the forums so somebody can fix it.
No Atheist Building Explosion Scorpions. ;)
[size=0]Also, the use of THA`ROON LASER UNITS is strictly prohibited.[/size]
Oh, what is number 9 referring to Fox?
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Atheist Building Explosion Scorpions? There are Explosive Scorpions? I want to BLOW THEM!!
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4. *All* tactics are legal and fair *EXCEPT* the following:
-a. Scout rushing (the act of self destructing scouts in order to damage another player, usually before weapons are avalible)
-b. Guard post rushing (the act of building guard posts in another players base in order to kill them, again, also usually before weapons are avalible)
-c. Killing tubes (the act of using your earthworker to break tubes in the other persons base to hamper or disable them, as with the previous two also usually before weapons are avalible.)
-d. Advanced lab bomb (the act of putting an advanced lab next to another players vital structures and damaging it so it will explode spontaneously or when the offending player leaves.)
Oh, so missile spamming is legal? :/ I'd say all of those above tactics are fine in a game with a decent AM, since you should be able to defend against them by the AM.
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I want to BLOW THEM!!
That's nasty.
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I don't think it's unfair to use missiles. Man, Eden have those Killer Thor's Hammer. Plymouth needs cool stuff too, don't you think?
I remember a game when I and Sl0vi were neighoboors. Both Plymouth. I started the fight after I supernova-ed TWO Spaceports. BOOOOM. Both destroyed. It felt good, it felt. We missile spammed ourselves for almost the whole match, until someone weakened him and I simply came and toppled what remained. Anyone at my colony died of hungriness, and I just watched Star Fox lose to Telaris, with missiles and all that.
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I don't think it's unfair to use missiles. Man, Eden have those Killer Thor's Hammer. Plymouth needs cool stuff too, don't you think?
I remember a game when I and Sl0vi were neighoboors. Both Plymouth. I started the fight after I supernova-ed TWO Spaceports. BOOOOM. Both destroyed. It felt good, it felt. We missile spammed ourselves for almost the whole match, until someone weakened him and I simply came and toppled what remained. Anyone at my colony died of hungriness, and I just watched Star Fox lose to Telaris, with missiles and all that.
No. Missile spam is 3275287512937589123579081235 times worse than any amount of Thor's Hammers can ever be. And anyone who relies only on Thor's Hammer is an idiot and will end up losing (unless his opponents suck, too). A Thor's tiger costs almost the same as an EMP missile. The cost of an EMP missile is 2000 common, 800 rare. The cost one ONE Thor's Tiger is 1950 common, 550 rare. The EMP missile is much more tactically useful than the single Thor's Tiger.
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Invisible wall exploit is another thing you might want to add.
And yes, it's possible to cheat the game in other ways. I won't go into details how (since I don't want people to become interested in that).
As far as EMP missiles are concerned, I don't think Dynamix really thought of their impact when multiple spaceports are used (ability to build them that quickly). I think if Dynamix / Sierra had supported the game for a longer period of time it's possible that a patch might have been released to prevent people from building many EMP missiles at once.
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Under Rules/Glitch Related:
No ConVec build and move exploitation. That is, don't do it on purpose, but if you do it accidentally, just have that ConVec dump it's cargo and wait for the building to finish. Though this shouldn't be a problem since most people probably don't know what I'm even talking about.
No transferring units to another player to get around the Vehicle Limit.
This is unlikely, but if you somehow find a terrain glitch that allows you to get to places you shouldn't be, don't exploit it. Just report it on the forums so somebody can fix it.
No Atheist Building Explosion Scorpions. wink.gif
Also, the use of THA`ROON LASER UNITS is strictly prohibited.
Oh, what is number 9 referring to Fox?
Invisible wall exploit is another thing you might want to add.
I knew i forgot some lol. And #9 is the rule that prevents us from exploiting the next bug/cheat/exploit we find :P.
Oh, so missile spamming is legal? :/ I'd say all of those above tactics are fine in a game with a decent AM, since you should be able to defend against them by the AM.
first, yeah i suppose scout rushing isnt going to do anything in a game with an AM, but seriously, it needs to be against the rules for the no AM games and you know it does, lets not get into semantics.
You can 'spam' missles with one port and efficiency engineering, so really if missles are allowed people will 'spam' them. Plus, if ply doesn't have missles they will loose and if the game lasts long enough for someone to get 5 spaceports and the economy to run them like that an eden player has PLENTY of time to get meteor defenses.
No. Missile spam is 3275287512937589123579081235 times worse than any amount of Thor's Hammers can ever be. And anyone who relies only on Thor's Hammer is an idiot and will end up losing (unless his opponents suck, too). A Thor's tiger costs almost the same as an EMP missile. The cost of an EMP missile is 2000 common, 800 rare. The cost one ONE Thor's Tiger is 1950 common, 550 rare. The EMP missile is much more tactically useful than the single Thor's Tiger.
Those prices are wrong. EMP missiles are 3000 common and 1500 rare - almost 3x as much rare (which, being rare, is harder to get than common lol).
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No. Missile spam is 3275287512937589123579081235 times worse than any amount of Thor's Hammers can ever be. And anyone who relies only on Thor's Hammer is an idiot and will end up losing (unless his opponents suck, too). A Thor's tiger costs almost the same as an EMP missile. The cost of an EMP missile is 2000 common, 800 rare. The cost one ONE Thor's Tiger is 1950 common, 550 rare. The EMP missile is much more tactically useful than the single Thor's Tiger.
I'm not sure those prices are right.
Oh really? Look them up yourself.
Edit: Ok, EMP missiles are 3000 common and 1500 rare in multiplayer. That's about 1.5 Thor's tigers. But an EMP missile is way better than 2 Thor's tigers.
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No. Missile spam is 3275287512937589123579081235 times worse than any amount of Thor's Hammers can ever be. And anyone who relies only on Thor's Hammer is an idiot and will end up losing (unless his opponents suck, too). A Thor's tiger costs almost the same as an EMP missile. The cost of an EMP missile is 2000 common, 800 rare. The cost one ONE Thor's Tiger is 1950 common, 550 rare. The EMP missile is much more tactically useful than the single Thor's Tiger.
I'm not sure those prices are right.
Oh really? Look them up yourself.
Edit: Ok, EMP missiles are 3000 common and 1500 rare in multiplayer. That's about 1.5 Thor's tigers. But an EMP missile is way better than 2 Thor's tigers.
YA RLY!
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NOWAI
DEYZ NEED B 4 SMLTRZ 4 BLD 1 LOOOOL11111111111
:blink:
I get the feeling we're going off topic here though...
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The arguement about EMP missiles can go both ways.
One way it takes alot of resources to build them, how ever. People usually build them when they have reached the unit limit. Thus making resources not much of a problem. Multipul emp missiles can get through the med defs even if there not fire directly over the med def. I have a solution to that but told i was a noob but i know it works because I tried it out with starfox one day. The thread to that is some where around here. The justification of Eden having thors hammer is not a good excuse for missile spamming. 2 missiles and 70% ESG 30% EMP units is more then enough to handle Thor tigers with acids and emp.
Now the first thing I know some one is going to say is WHY DID YOU LET THEM BUILD THE MISSILES. Because once they have one missiles it can be rather hard to get into there base. WHY LET THEM HAVE THAT ONE MISSILE. Because maybe they rushed it or maybe there was a Attack mark. Not all games are rush games people welcome to the new age of not 56k modems. When a 200 mark game last 10-20 mins. People want to play longer then that and start to like the bigger battles.
The Truth to why most people do not like the missile is that is makes it so they cant leave there base or they have to invest alot of resource to out missile or set up a train of easy to kill met defs. Plus the fact they can hit any where on the map. Some thing I might add a thors hammer can not do. It has to drive to kill things.
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As I wrote before, many people forgot why they are playing op2. So sad.
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One way it takes alot of resources to build them
When you compare it to the cost of an army, not really. A single 3000 common missile can end up making your 60000 (give or take) common metal army get destroyed.
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I sort of feel GP rushing is a reasonably fair tactic. A little on the cheap side, but for the most part reasonably fair.
What's super annoying though, is making use of the ability to bump enemy units. You can use some old useless unit, like a robo surveyor in a land rush game after scouting out your area, and use it to bump enemy convecs off their pads. The dock will eventually kill it, but it's still very annoying and can slow someone down quite a lot. You can also get in the way of their building locations so they can't place them down.
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I sort of feel GP rushing is a reasonably fair tactic. A little on the cheap side, but for the most part reasonably fair.
So building a Guard Post next to an enemy CC before they can defend themselves is fair?
Maybe we should try it on you a few times Hooman.
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I sort of feel GP rushing is a reasonably fair tactic. A little on the cheap side, but for the most part reasonably fair.
What's super annoying though, is making use of the ability to bump enemy units. You can use some old useless unit, like a robo surveyor in a land rush game after scouting out your area, and use it to bump enemy convecs off their pads. The dock will eventually kill it, but it's still very annoying and can slow someone down quite a lot. You can also get in the way of their building locations so they can't place them down.
I would have to agree with that, even though it is a little cheap. But then again, I believe that almost anything the designers intended is fair game (you could realistically build a gp next to someone's base, so why couldn't you in a game?) Also, if they have their initial weapons research done by then, you should too, and you can build closer to your base to defend. It's really not that hard people, and if you fail, then try again ^^ Mez rushed me with a gp once, and I learned to watch them from then on. (I truthfully found it quite funny) An actual scout rush is a bit hard to pull off in the beginning due to the lack of initial ore (usually making the target your enemies tokamaks. (So don't build them side by side! Nothing wrong with making them a few tiles apart. This also prevents against 1 flare downing both, also effectively crippling you)) Scouts are fast, and I don't see why they can't be used to get into a heavily fortified base. As for the missile spamming, I understand people's debate about it, but some people take it to the extreme.. (I've been in several games where the second I build a spaceport, they quit) Perhaps a little mod would be appropiate to restrict the construction... (or maybe even raising the prices a bit, but this would make it harder to even get an initial missile) That's if the community would agree on it. Alot of the points that Starfox made were good along the lines of actual cheating/glitching.
tl;dr
Don't cheat/glitch, most things are fair, community should come to a decision about the restrictions of missiles.
If you people are so pro, why don't you prove it (:
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But most people don't expect to get GP Rushed and don't defend against it because it's a cheap, dirty, illegal tactic.
Also, by your logic it's okay to cut enemy tubes because after all you could do it in real life. And why would they have an AM in real life? No need to have that either. Might as well set up Advanced Lab Bombs all over their colony while we're at it.
Edit: Also, if this were "Real Life" mines wouldn't last forever and the colonies wouldn't be able to waste resources on GP Rushing and Scout Rushing.
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Using GPs for a rush is like some really big guy slapping a child around. And it makes the person feel that way as such to.
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Using GPs for a rush is like some really big guy slapping a child around. And it makes the person feel that way as such to.
Also shows a complete lack of skill (as if GP / scout rushing is the best you can do).
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I also think cutting tubes is a perfectly valid strategy. Doing it late game is certainly no worse than using a nova to a CC, if even that. They should just be on the lookout for that. Doing it early game seems fair too. If they have an earthworker early game, it's quite possible you have one too (say in a land rush game). In which case rebuild any tubes they destroy, or build extra before they are destroyed. They can cut at most 3 of your active tubes before their earthworker is destroyed. They can't eactly repair them early game either, making it costly, especially if they need to send more than one. Plus, they are slow so you should see them comming in advance.
GP rushing is definately cheap, but convecs are also slow. You should see it coming. Unless your bases are really close, you should have time to put up GPs of your own before they get there. Granted, there is the issue of not knowing where they will place the GPs, and once you place yours they are immobile and so can be avoided. Although, that is somewhat dependent on the map. If placement is an issue, you can try stalling them long enough to get mobile weapons platform, which shouldn't be far behind. Maybe follow their convec around and place your GP right after theirs. You probably won't win the fire fight, but you'll at least keep their GP busy for a while. GP rushing isn't something I'd like to see way before combat units can be built, but I see no reason why people shouldn't try building GPs in an enemy base anytime after combat units are available.
And sure, some of those rushing tactics may be a bit on the rude side, but at least it ends the game early and you didn't just waste hours playing a game you didn't enjoy. Personally I'd love to see more creative ways of playing, other than the standard rush. If it ends the game early, then no real time wasted. If it's a long game, then at least it wasn't the standard rush. Besides, how many of you find at least a little amusement in some of the things people have tried?
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I don't find any enjoyment in being GP/Scout Rushed and the last time it happened we ended up 5v1'ing the offender.
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Well, both GP and earth worker tactics can only be used in a very limited amount of games. They would apply in really close LoS games or in crowded LR games. This means most maps can be ruled out.
Like someone already pointed out, both vehicles needed for these tactics are slow, and both tactics are quite easy to defend against.
There's no need to "outlaw" these tactics. Though I would call the tactics a bit cheap, they aren't "illegal" or "cheating" in any form. Instead of banning them outright, learn to defend against them. This were never a problem back on WON, and people using those tactics back then were reffered to as n00bs!
- I really don't see why it should suddenly become a problem to defend against these sort of tactics now..
For the record, I would only use these tactics if my base was within a screen of my enemy. i.e In the middle of a "Four Mesas" LR game etc.. AND if I were clearly at a disadvantage, OR were competing for the same resources to survive (That's my personal employment of those tactics though)
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I think we're starting to go off topic here. I'll open a new thread for the ideas brought up here though.
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I totally agree with all of that I hate when people start using profanity
omg
you crybabies need to stop
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Please spend some time here before you start calling us names.
This topic has been settled anyways.