Outpost Universe Forums

Projects & Development => GORF => Hall of Fame => Topic started by: Freeza-CII on February 13, 2007, 01:40:39 PM

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Freeza-CII on February 13, 2007, 01:40:39 PM

Ok Combine Cruiser

Put all the details about Bithium how you find it and such even atomic weight if you want.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 15, 2007, 10:04:22 AM

I had the thought that a third ore might be nice to implement in the game. bithium is a form of materials that are not found on earth. Other planets other minerals..
You could call it Legendary ore, Invaluable ore or, Precious ore. It would be mined after extensive research by modified miners if implemented. This ore would be especially rare and you could find only a 1 or 2 bar mine of this. Due to the nature of this ore I have no idea of it's atomic weight. This ore would be useful because it's rarity would limit the special units you could build. Plus it would be another system to defend

 As far as I know all data on ore found in meteors that are not earth like has been posted as Top Secret, class Ultra Blue security clearence.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Mez on February 15, 2007, 10:47:21 AM

Not sure about a third ultra rare ore.

It could go the way that "reinforced vehicles" goes where once you research it you need some of the third ore to produce some of the normal vehicles.

It would be good if a third ore, allowed for building of special walls, like the blight walls, for what reason I don't know.  Perhaps some of the more advanced weapon systems, but that could bring about some kind of in-balance, if the ore is really rare, and hard to get.

I was think more along the lines of using it for reinforced buildings,

Say the ore allowed for a new stronger metal alloy, it could be used to build stronger super structures

 like a bigger agridome, CC with higher hit points, GP with more hit points, MHD like power facility

The GP could even possibly have a more powerful weapon on top, if its structure were stronger.

I would however add something like:  "The ore is too rare to be wasted in vehicles, or that it is too heavy for use in vehicles.  In its description"

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Betaray on February 15, 2007, 12:41:12 PM

Ok for one, what is Top Secret, class Ultra Blue security clearance?

For two even if something has different ores, they would still be made up of the same elements, the entire universe is made of the same stuff, so no ore would have any of the special ability's (inter-dimensional and the like), it would just be different concentrations of elements we already know about, iron, cobalt, silicon, and so on.

The composition of meteors is well known and is public knowledge, it has high quantities of rare elements such as platinum as well as fairly high concentrations of Iridium, which is rare on Earth, but still nothing to the extent that you are talking about.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Freeza-CII on February 15, 2007, 12:57:16 PM

meteors are mostly iron like earth.  

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: BlackBox on February 15, 2007, 02:13:02 PM

The game is complex enough as-is. Adding another ore would just frustrate the user and there is really no realistic purpose for another ore.

Besides, OP2 is based on hard SF and as such, you couldn't 'magically' mine ore that comes from meteors... you would need some way to retrieve the ore from meteors in space.

Unfortunately I am reminded of "titanum comes from a melted UFO" for a minute here.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: TRIX Rabbit on February 15, 2007, 07:35:01 PM

I think a better way of getting "Bithium" ore (what a lame name, should be Dense Ore)
is as a by product of the GORF. After alot of research, they find that the GORF is able to create enormous pressure and force and create "Bithium" ore, which at first only needs storage tanks. Then thru even more research, the source of the materials for the ore are in what is mined out of the common ore mines. The "Bithium/Dense" ore smelter is created to reduce the load on the GORF. The metal is created from common ore,  and the process creates slightly less ore than rare ore, but also creates some common ore (which is not stored in the Bithium ore smelter).

Alternative to this is that a conversion plant converts Common + Rare ore into Bithium.

There are three theoretical elements that lie in the center of the "Island of Stability", Elements 122, 124, and 126 i thinks... Bithium should be one of these.

Bithium should only be for buildings... It would be useless in vechs unless harnessed as a power source (tho unlikely)

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Arklon on February 15, 2007, 07:56:23 PM

Quote

From the Outpost 2 Manual
... The first is simply called Common Ore, and it is rich in lighter metals such as aluminum, titanium, magnesium, yttrium, and chromium, as well as a few common heavier metals like copper and iron.  So-called Rare Ores are rich in heavier metals including radioactives.  Metals in this group include gold, silver, lead, cobalt, nickel, palladium, osmium, platinum, cadmium, zinc, mercury, thorium, and uranium.

Do we need more metals?

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 16, 2007, 08:26:17 AM

Ok.. I had the thought that Bithium could (if allowed) be used in the new weapons and vehicles I've proposedPlease remember I'm only suggesting, I'm not good at speeches. Though biuldings are a very good idea to I agree. You see Bithium is normally composed of stable isotopes of elements. These isotopes could be of titanium or even cobalt. So these elements are on earth but EXTREMELY rare except for certain kinds. Heck part of our bodies are made of an isotope of carbon.
I thought blight walls were obselete unless the blight is going to be in OP3 which I hope isn't, I prefer to blast things instead of run from them. Say... my organic acid weapon requires bithium because of carbon 16 I think. If added that is. As for a power source bithium could also be the small portions of anti-matter that do exist.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: CK9 on February 16, 2007, 09:47:58 AM

antimatter would be impossible to mine, because the second it comes in contact with matter, it is neutralized

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Savant 231-A on February 16, 2007, 11:36:58 AM

With a explosion. Big explosion. (does it?)

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: CK9 on February 16, 2007, 02:19:03 PM

I don't think it explodes.  All it is is a cancelling of opposites

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: White Claw on February 16, 2007, 04:05:50 PM

We already had the antimatter discussion here (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=3483&st=0). As was quoted, the metals in OP are composites. "Common metals" is an all inclusive term (contains more than one common type of material). "Rare metals" is also an all inclusive term. If you want another resource type, I would shy away form giving it a specific name as I would imagine it is also another type of composite ore (containing more than one material of interest).

Titanium (itself) is not an isotope (neither is cobalt). Or are you saying that "bithium" is a composite of isotopic elements? (isotopes of titanium, cobalt, etc...)

Help us see what the gaming benefit of "bithium" is and how it would fit into the story line (in terms of in-game). i.e. If it opens up a new class of research (such as what "rare ore" does) that might fit better than simply adding it for the sake of having another resource type.

As for me, I'm not sure what gaming bonus I feel for having to set up a third type of mine.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: dm-horus on February 16, 2007, 04:28:29 PM

I suggest that people simply do not post their ideas unless theyre reasonably sure of what theyre talking about. Doing 10 minutes of googling on the ideas you want to incorporate into this "bithium" idea would have helped you make much more sense with this. It is obvious from reading that youre not entirely sure exactly what antimatter is, or even how the ore classes work in op2. As White Claw has said there are not 2 kinds of ore, there are 2 CLASSES of ore which contain perhaps dozens of specific types of ore. Since there is no reason to build a vehicle with iridium plating theres no reason to mine meteors. This bithium idea sounds like one specific element which is for some reason present but has applications much like tiberium from C&C. In that case, tiberium extracts minerals from the crust and concentrates them into tiberium crystals which can then be mined. Is bithium similar? If so then I dont think it belongs in this game for a number of reasons. If it isnt like tiberium I dont know what kind of material it could be that would be so rare yet have applications that are so necessary that it has its very own ore class.

So anyway, we will need much more clarity before any ore suggestion is seriously considered. Do a bit of research and get back to us with a clearer understanding of what it is you are proposing.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Freeza-CII on February 16, 2007, 10:26:11 PM

Antimatter is simple and why it doesnt work as a weapon or a powersource yet.

-1 + 1 = 0  

Its very hard to contain it because of this.  Not to mention the limited amount that you would get from bithium would give insignificant amounts of power compared to the cool fusion in the vecs.  IF bithium is a Alloy made from multipul other elements  then it would not be mined it would be smelted or forged.  Adding such a thing that would automaticly be done as a resource just doesnt make sence since it will always be avalible as long as you have Common and/or Rare ores.  

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: dm-horus on February 17, 2007, 07:26:55 AM

Wikipedia:

"In antimatter-matter collisions resulting in photon emission, the entire rest mass of the particles is converted to kinetic energy. The energy per unit mass is about 10 orders of magnitude greater than chemical energy, and about 2 orders of magnitude greater than nuclear energy that can be liberated today using nuclear fission or fusion. The reaction of 1 kg of antimatter with 1 kg of matter would produce 1.8×1017 J (180 petajoules) of energy (by the equation E=mc²). This is about 134 times as much energy as is obtained by nuclear fusion of the same mass of hydrogen (fusion of 1H to 4He produces about 7 MeV per nucleon, or 1.3×1015 J for 2 kg of hydrogen). This amount of energy would be released by burning 5.6 billion liters (1.5 billion US gallons) of gasoline (the combustion of one liter of gasoline in oxygen produces 3.2×107 J), or by detonating 43 million tonnes of TNT (at 4.2×106 J/kg).

Not all of that energy can be utilized by any realistic technology, because as much as 50% of energy produced in reactions between nucleons and antinucleons is carried away by neutrinos, so, for all intents and purposes, it can be considered lost.[2]

The scarcity of antimatter means that it is not readily available to be used as fuel, although it could be used in antimatter catalyzed nuclear pulse propulsion. Generating a single antiproton is immensely difficult and requires particle accelerators and vast amounts of energy—millions of times more than is released after it is annihilated with ordinary matter, due to inefficiencies in the process. Known methods of producing antimatter from energy also produce an equal amount of normal matter, so the theoretical limit is that half of the input energy is converted to antimatter. Counterbalancing this, when antimatter annihilates with ordinary matter, energy equal to twice the mass of the antimatter is liberated—so energy storage in the form of antimatter could (in theory) be 100% efficient. Antimatter production is currently very limited, but has been growing at a nearly geometric rate since the discovery of the first antiproton in 1955.[3] The current antimatter production rate is between 1 and 10 nanograms per year, and this is expected to increase to between 3 and 30 nanograms per year by 2015 or 2020 with new superconducting linear accelerator facilities at CERN and Fermilab. Some researchers claim that with current technology, it is possible to obtain antimatter for US$25 million per gram by optimizing the collision and collection parameters (given current electricity generation costs). Antimatter production costs, in mass production, are almost linearly tied in with electricity costs, so economical pure-antimatter thrust applications are unlikely to come online without the advent of such technologies as deuterium-tritium fusion power (assuming that such a power source actually would prove to be cheap). Many experts, however, dispute these claims as being far too optimistic by many orders of magnitude. They point out that in 2004; the annual production of antiprotons at CERN was several picograms at a cost of $20 million. This means to produce 1 gram of antimatter, CERN would need to spend 100 quadrillion dollars and run the antimatter factory for 100 billion years. Storage is another problem, as antiprotons are negatively charged and repel against each other, so that they cannot be concentrated in a small volume. Plasma oscillations in the charged cloud of antiprotons can cause instabilities that drive antiprotons out of the storage trap. For these reasons, to date only a few million antiprotons have been stored simultaneously in a magnetic trap, which corresponds to much less than a femtogram. Antihydrogen atoms or molecules are neutral so in principle they do not suffer the plasma problems of antiprotons described above. But cold antihydrogen is far more difficult to produce than antiprotons, and so far not a single antihydrogen atom has been trapped in a magnetic field.

Several NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts-funded studies are exploring whether the antimatter that occurs naturally in the Van Allen belts of Earth, and ultimately, the belts of gas giants like Jupiter, might be able to be collected with magnetic scoops, at hopefully a lower cost per gram.[4]

Since the energy density is vastly higher than these other forms, the thrust to weight equation used in antimatter rocketry and spacecraft would be very different. In fact, the energy in a few grams of antimatter is enough to transport an unmanned spacecraft to Mars in about a month—the Mars Global Surveyor took eleven months to reach Mars. It is hoped that antimatter could be used as fuel for interplanetary travel or possibly interstellar travel, but it is also feared that if humanity ever gets the capabilities to do so, there could be the construction of antimatter weapons."

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Brazilian Fan on February 18, 2007, 07:37:12 PM

Resume pliz.

To long for me to read it  :rolleyes:  

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Freeza-CII on February 18, 2007, 09:11:39 PM

youll just have to read it.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: dm-horus on February 19, 2007, 04:20:27 PM

It answers almost all the outstanding questions or problems raised in this discussion. youll just have to read it to understand. i took that from the wikipedia article on anti-matter, i think everyone in this discussion should read that. again ill say that people should seriously do at least 10 minutes of research before they start a science discussion or debate.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Freeza-CII on February 19, 2007, 04:38:39 PM

Posting the link would have been a lot simpler and the fact is we have already read this in a previous thread.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Brazilian Fan on February 19, 2007, 05:05:07 PM

Quote

It answers almost all the outstanding questions or problems raised in this discussion. youll just have to read it to understand. i took that from the wikipedia article on anti-matter, i think everyone in this discussion should read that. again ill say that people should seriously do at least 10 minutes of research before they start a science discussion or debate.

I totally agree.

When some idea 'pops' on your head, try to not post here without any useful information. 10 minutes of goggling (and a read on Outpost/Outpost 2 novella/help etc.) would avoid lot's of trouble and nonsense later.

NOTE: Outpost series are Hard-Fiction games, it's a POSSIBLE nears-future image.

 :op2:  4 ever

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 20, 2007, 08:02:01 PM

Quote

If you want another resource type, I would shy away form giving it a specific name as I would imagine it is also another type of composite ore (containing more than one material of interest).

Titanium (itself) is not an isotope (neither is cobalt). Or are you saying that "bithium" is a composite of isotopic elements? (isotopes of titanium, cobalt, etc...)

Help us see what the gaming benefit of "bithium" is and how it would fit into the story line (in terms of in-game). i.e. If it opens up a new class of research (such as what "rare ore" does) that might fit better than simply adding it for the sake of having another resource type.

As for me, I'm not sure what gaming bonus I feel for having to set up a third type of mine.

Yes I am saying that. I f we add this third ore it could be used in my other suggestions. Such as weapons and vehicles.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 22, 2007, 07:59:10 AM

My suggestion (at least most of them) do require small amounts of this material the reason the amount is so small is because you would probably get only 50 units of ore per cargo truck meaning this is ULTRA RARE.

Also it could open up major research discoveries like (anti matter pulse drive for the star ship because I have been racked about the fact that there is only a neglible amount natuaraly but if you think this is a problem flat out say it don't hide behind a 10K word page) also it could bring about a new explosive device or possibly even a new group of structures like a quake resistant power plant to name one.

Another use for this ore could be to create super composites of rare and bithium which would technically be bithium metals due to the rarity of the ore, but this could be able to create armor upgrades and new levels armor (as seen in my vehicle suggestment) You could give a standard lynx Renforced Medium armor for instance. WOW!

These are possibilities, you have a point there it could open up a HUGE number of side technologies!

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Freeza-CII on February 22, 2007, 01:03:27 PM

NO NO NO this is getting stupid.  If you didnt read no one really want bithium ore for any reasons such as antimater.   Also having are ore that is so rare basicly makes it useless as you can produce alot of units with the common and rare ores.  I certainly would be mass producing on the "lower" ores.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 23, 2007, 09:00:00 AM

Ok forget the anti-matter. And this isn't like 5 ore per truck I would imagine 100 like the original magma wells would be good. I just couldn't use regular rare as it is already in use. This is just advised to be a somewhat rarer substance the regular rare ore. And what is the use of lesser units if the new weapons make them obselete.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Betaray on February 23, 2007, 12:26:00 PM

as such it becomes the same thing as the "heavy" ore that has been shot down for years

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: White Claw on February 23, 2007, 07:50:21 PM

Wether you call it "bithium", "ultra rare", or "heavy" ore you're still arguing for the same thing: A third resource type. I think the general concensus is that no body wan't to bother with a third resource that is basically the same as the other two (but more "rare" than "rare"). Its along the same reasons why people don't want a third type of "colonist". Having two (workers and scientists) to deal with is enough.

If we're going to add another resource type of thing to worry about, I'd be more of an advocate for something like air or water (i.e. Chap facility) than for a third ore. (but that's a whole 'nother topic)

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 25, 2007, 08:23:32 PM

This isn't a vital ore though it only is used to a\open up new unneeded technologies I mean you don't need it to win a game. It is not so much a hassle but an option to make noessential advancements.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Freeza-CII on February 26, 2007, 02:21:32 AM

Quote

This isn't a vital ore though it only is used to a\open up new unneeded technologies I mean you don't need it to win a game. It is not so much a hassle but an option to make noessential advancements.

Uh ya if its not important then why even have it.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Mez on February 26, 2007, 03:20:43 AM

Well do you use leisure studies, consumer good factories etc in a multiplayer game? (Well not a population one anyway)

Do you however use them in colony games to get population up? Yes

Its still feasible to use some of these technologies when the situation and map allows for it.

If you know that doing some of the "extra" techs will give u the tactical edge, then you use them.  More fool you if you don't e.g. Acid Cloud weaponry

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 26, 2007, 08:37:03 AM

This ore was suggested by me because I have used it in several MILITARY suggestments which aren't vital since it's a game of survival but it would give you some extra comfort if added. Besides unit designs form Outpost 2 will be much older and the older the more likely to becoome obselete.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: White Claw on February 26, 2007, 07:49:36 PM

It's a valiant try, but I'm still not sure anyone wants another ore type. I would like to see an additional tech branch though. But I suppose that's another thread.

Without quoting me where you would use the ore specifically (i.e. military units, reinforced structures) help me see where this fits in the game. I can already created advanced units with rare ores (and nobody seems keen on new chassis types). I think I could also argue that if we want reinforced structures, we could use rare ore (since that hasn't been done yet).

The problem is that if you start telling me it's some ultra light material, or some super dense metal, that is all already included in the generic "rare" and "common" metals. Rare and common are not a type of metal, they're a classification.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 27, 2007, 08:32:49 AM

Those classes don't appear to include isotopes some of which can be better than the original. I mean what if you used an isotope of hydrogen in reactors than the plain old stuff? I was hoping this ore would be put in to open up new branches of technology that people are actually interested in. I was also hopping it would have some signifficance in the game while not being VITAL. This would add more challenge and technology to the game.

The idea is that this material would be more viable than rare as it is slightly heavier than the normal materials but is flat out more efficent in terms of strength. These materials could possibly do things that rare can't. For example: A vehicle with titanium armor could be upgraded with an isotope of that material while not weighing a huge amount more just a little which wouldn't hinder it's speed as much and could be potentially better.

There's a thought blend carbon and titanium, isotope or not it would be a heck of an armor!

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: TRIX Rabbit on February 27, 2007, 08:54:40 AM

umm... In fusion reactors, two of the three naturaly occuring isotopes are used. Tritium, which is Hydrogen with two neutrons, and Deuterium, which has 1 neutron. They don't use the "plain old kind". go look up Deuterium-Tritium Fusion on google.

Also, isotopes of elements are quite common. Carbon-12 is the common one, but carbon-14 is found in nature and is used for "carbon dating". Potassium isotopes are found in your body.

A denser metal does NOT mean it is stronger. Iron is mixed with carbon to make steel, one of the most common building materials in skyscrapers. Titanium is a light metal, and is very strong and resistant to heat and cold. Mercury is a very dense natural metal, and it is liquid. So much for strong dense metals.

Also, a titanium-carbon blend is not an isotope. It is an alloy called Titanium Carbide. Go do a Wikipedia study time before trying to argue for "Dense" Bithium ore. \:(

EDIT: By the way, nuclear power plants use Deuterium water (D2O) to abosrb neutrons from the uranium reactor rods, and to cool the reactor.
Oops...Double posted
 

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Combine Crusier on February 27, 2007, 09:00:05 AM

I didn't call it an isotope I mearly indicated that it would be a good armor and it could be better if you mixed the isotopes of those elements together. I never said bithium was dense I was saying it could weigh more but not not as much more as your average rare ore composite.

I know that denser doesn't always mean it is stronger look at lead.

Some isotopes are rare though.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: TRIX Rabbit on February 27, 2007, 09:19:01 AM

Quote

The idea is that this material would be more viable than rare as it is slightly heavier than the normal materials but is flat out more efficent in terms of strength.

Heavier usually means more mass. Unless the gravitational pull varies, or one sample is larger than the other.

Let's assume for a second that the comparison between "rare" metals and "bithium" metals were of the same volume, as it has to be to make a comparison about mass (I'll say a half liter, 500ml each).
Now if the sample of bithium was "slightly heavier" (I'll assume that rare, R = 1.5kg, and that bithium, B = 2kg) than the sample of bithium (using the Density= Mass/Volume) is:

Code: [Select]

R=1.5kg=1500g
D=1500g/500ml= 3 g/ml

B=2kg=2000g
D=2000g/500ml=4g/ml

OH LOOK, THE BITHIUM IS DENSER!

And explain to me two things:
1.) What exactly is a average rare ore composite?

2.) What metals are contained in Bithium ore? Rare and common ores contain many different types of metals, inculding the densest naturally occuring (in more than miniscule amounts) metal, uranium. Also please specify the Atomic mass, names and such of the materials contained in the bithium ores.

Title: Bithium Ore
Post by: Betaray on February 27, 2007, 04:36:16 PM

The main point is that it would be a 3d type of ore, which has been shot down numerous times.

If there is going to be more resources it would most likely be in the form of atmospheric gases with the CHAP.

topic closed